Getting married in Brazil, Permanent Visa and documents required

Thanks

Hi all!  I have a question for Ljd or anyone else who might know...

I've been reading through this thread and trying to wrap my head around all of the bureaucracy and options but am a bit confused. I'm staying in Vitoria ES and wanted to find out what the best way to go about marriage is.

Say I'm dating a girl and the 180 days on my tourist visa will be over at the end of July. If we want to get married, is there any good way to do it that will let me stay in Brasil and not have to go back to the USA for documentation?  I like the option you described of heading to Argentina to get married but assuming we left Brasil before my 180 days expired (so I don't overstay illegally), would I have to still wait 185 days for my tourist visa to reset to re-enter Brasil even though I'm now married to a Brazilian?

Also, if we went the Argentina marriage route, would I still be required to go back to the USA for any documentation before they would give me a CRNM (or whatever I need in this situation to be granted permanent residency) once we were back in-country?  I left the USA over 2.5 years ago but got copies of my full birth certificate, divorce decree/judgement documentation (was married once in the US a long time ago), and everything else but will they still require the 90-day criminal check thing from the FBI and a 180-day birth certificate?

Been trying to understand all the changes and differences in the laws.  I assume that the change in visa requirements for americans won't matter since I will already be in the country for 180 days on a tourist visa this year?

Thank you in advance!

Hi Enc3,

It seems everyone has experienced different situations when it comes to visas, overstaying or marriage. When my 180 days were about to expire the FP told me to leave Brazil for a day and come  back and my allowance starts all over again since they changed the laws. As for the documentation to gain residency here in brazil i have just applyed fot mine and you need to have a criminal background check that is no longer than 3 months old, i had a similar issue when applying for my residency last year my criminal background check (from the UK) had expired by 1 week and they wouldn't accept it. But if your 180 days allowance resets it should give you time to apply back in the US and have it sent here before your new allowance expires.

I hope this can be of some help to you.

Aisling

Hi Aisling!  So wait a minute... are you saying that because of Bolsonaro's change to the visa laws for Americans, we who are already in the country with a tourist visa can leave and come back right away once our 180 days is up due to the change? Because that would be a total game-changer for me! In that case I will probably just head to Foz and spend a few days in Ciudad del Este stocking up on cheap supplies to bring back lol...

When did you leave and re-enter?  Did you have any issues when showing your passport to Policia Federal or have to show proof of onward travel when re-entering under the new law?

I should head back down to the PF here at shopping praia da costa and find out what they have to say...

Thank you for the response!

Hi enc3,

Long story short, in 2017 when I arrived in Rio my plan was to live here but I was under the impression because this was my third time visiting that year I only had 30 days left of my 180 allowance. I went to the FP at Galeao airport and enquired about it, the lady explained the laws had changed and I could leave Rio for a day and return and my allowance would reset, she also explained about the overstaying charges too. When applying for my residency visa my criminal background check had expired by a week and they wouldn't accept it. I took the chance to reapply for it back in the UK and wait for it to arrive which ended up arriving too late and I overstayed, if I had acted smart I could have left Brazil and re-entered but lesson learned and I left rio. I had R$9000 to pay before i could re-enter which I did pay with no problems at all when I arrived back in Rio. My residency visa application this time round was so easy but the criminal background check is a must!

If I were you i would go to your nearest FP and triple check because it seems each state has different rules.

I hope it all works out for you!

Aisling

180 day Visit? I'm curious as to how many times you can enter Brazil? Does the clock restart every time you enter Brazil or do you add each visit?

Thanks for the information Aisling.  It doesn't sound like what I was thinking is the case then but I will go to the PF anyway and find out if there is any option for me to leave and come back right away due to the elimination of visa requirements for Americans (and a few other countries) that takes effect in 2 weeks.

Jonerle -- As far as I know it is still a max of 180 days per 365 day calendar year, starting from the time you enter (not the beginning of January).  So once you enter you can stay max 180 days with your 90-day extension until your "anniversary" date of entry, when the clock resets.

I'm a  little confused. On my 2-year Passport I have been back and forth over 6 times. 45 days first time, a month later 28 days, then another month later and 30 days and so on. I've had no problems. I was told that each visit was new and good for 90 days.

I'm not really sure from experience, but everything I have ever read says that it is 180 days max per 365 day year, at least for Americans with tourist visas. I guess I will find out when I go to the PF here in a couple days to ask them if I can re-enter right away when my 180 days is up at the end of July. I will be sure to post what they tell me here!

enc3
You're planning on asking the right question to the right people, I think.
The new immigration laws went into effect at the end of November 2017, and for the first half of 2018, there was a lot of confusion, including, it seems, among the Federal Police, in part because implementing regulations were late in being issued, and in part because the Federal Police computer systems were being updated. 
All that seems to have been resolved now.  I have yet to find anything OFFICIAL (and I look) that contradicts the 180 day maximum in every rolling 365 rule, and some of the things that people are saying about their overstay fines suggest to me that the systems are now calculating overstays per the regulations. 
I've read the same posts here that you have about lax controls at the land ports of entry.  I've never entered or left Brazil through that route, so I have no personal experience.  Personally, I wouldn't want to bet my ability to return on somebody not doing his or her job.

enc3, I await your answer. This is all very confusing. I guess it all boils down to: 180 days per year or 90 days per entry ( W/extension ) ??? I will have my wife ask at our local Federal Police.

Abthree - yeah I've entered through Tabatinga the last two years and it was pretty lax, no asking for proof of onward travel or anything like that, but they don't give you your entry card. I left last year though Foz on my way to Asuncion and will probably do it again this year.  I agree with your view on the situation so even if the PF here in Vitoria tell me I can re-enter, I will make sure I'm packed, suited up, and set to go back to Asuncion if the foz border PF tell me otherwise if I try.

Jonerle -- 180 days per year, multiple entries, but the extension comes into play only if you are trying to stay in the country 180 days straight without leaving and re-entering.

Aisling,
I am Not Trying to be Rude or seem like I am a Know it All, But that Statement About Leaving for a day and then Reentering With a Fresh Set of Days IS GARBAGE, IS FALSE, VERY WRONG.... Whoever Said this Is CLUELESS ABOUT BRAZILIAN LAWS REGARDING This Subject.
Yes the Laws Have Changed but Nothing in the New Laws Changed Regarding a Person Is Only Able to Reside in Brasil for a MAXIMUM of 180 Per Year on A Visitor Visa (a persons Year Starts the day he or she First Arrives)
This is Not Peru or other Countries that Allow that Practice to Happen!
If a Person Has Maxed out their days and they Leave, They Will Not Be Able to Reenter Until Their Calendar year Resets, Period!
Or, they can Recieve a Different Type of Visa To Reenter with LIKE I DID, I Reentered With a Family Reunion Visa, But Could Not Get Back in without it or having to Wait Almost Six Months on my Original Visitor Visa!
You Should Do Some Fact Checking Before You Give out information especially as Sensitive as this, the Guy you repiled to would Be Screwed in so many ways if he listened to and did What you said!

Got the matter settled.. maybe... Federal Police state that 180 days per year from initial entry. 90 days per entry and 90 day extension granted by Federal Police. This is to be legal with the standard Tourist/ E-Visa or new June no Visa entry. The twist... My wife was told that I could remain in Brazil for the rest of my life due to supporting a child and having a Brazilian Marriage Certificate. "Inexpulsive". This is not really legal and if I ever left Brazil and tried to renter, there would be denial of entry and fine. It appears that honesty is the best policy and getting a family reunion, spousal or other Visa is best to stay beyond 180 Visas.

Hey there Abthree! Nice to see you here!
Your very correct about your post, and the 180 days per year Didnt Stop to being the law. This law about 180 days a year Applies to All People Entering Brasil on a Visitor Visa, Including people of the EU and other Countries. Those People Do Enter Brasil on a Tourist Visa the Same as a Canadian or American, the only difference is that people of the EU and other countries Are Automatically Granted their Tourist Visa Upon Arrival Unlike an American or Canadian that Have to Apply for it Prior to Arrival.
And as you know but others do not, a person with a Visitor Visa is Only Allowed to be in Brasil for 90 days and is eligible to get a ONE TIME Extension of another 90 days for a total of 180 days They are Allowed to Legally be in Brasil.
I left and had Overstayed by 10 days, Recieved my Family Reunion Visa in Uruguay and then I Was Allowed Back into Brasil On this New Visa, But they Still Made me Pay 1000 Reai due to my 10 day overstay! The 100 reai (One Hundred per day) a day fine for overstaying Applies to All, people of the EU, America or any country.
People seem to spread false hope and falsehood in general about this.
I also dont know about coming into Brasil via a Land Crossing but the Law is Straight forward and the only thing this New Law does is Make it easier for Canadians or Americans , Japanese and Australians to Recieve a Tourist Visa Upon Arrival, the same as people from the EU and other countries..But then they still are only allowed that Coveted 180 days,
Hope your well and have a great day,
Lawrence

Jon,
Glad you got it straightened out.  The answer you received makes sense, including the reference to your "unexpellable" status, which I don't usually bring up here to keep from confusing people, but is black letter law and definitely applies in your case.
But, you're still going to apply for your CRNM, right? 

Thanks, Lawrence, you too!
One correction:  not everyone gets 180 days in 365.  Citizens of EU member states that did not have agreements with Brazil prior to the EU agreement, including heavy hitters like France, Germany, and Italy, only get 90 days in every 180, no extensions.  It comes out to the same number of days in a year, but can't be continuous.   Britain, Ireland, Portugal, and Poland have prior agreements, and are on the same basis as the US and Canada.
Potential visitors should look up their country on the Foreign Ministry's "vistos para viajar ao Brasil" page, to know what to expect.

abthree, Yes, it's always best to do things the right way even if it is troublesome. Why play games when it can cause problems.

Hi Lawerence,

If you read my post correctly I explained MY situation and how it was dealt with. Not me giving "FACTS" I purely told it exactly how it happened to me and I also did suggest going to speak with the local FP because I know so many different people have experienced different thing's which I also stated! So I think before you come on here and have a go at me read people's posts clearly. I'm not here to "screw" anyone over or get anyone in trouble I'm here to share my experiences, simple.

Aisling

Good evening,
Two things regarding my post and your subsequent reply,
First, Please show me in my post where I said that "you came here in order to screw anyone over"? I didnt say that Nor did I Come Close to Implying this about you so kindly Refrain from Putting words Into My Mouth!
Second, I started off my post by stating that "I was not trying to be rude" to you! And I wasnt attempting to be rude at all...

What I did say however I Stand by, and that is if Ed or anyone else would do what you said  or suggested to do because someone gave you BAD And Very WRONG information that in turn you pass out without doing homework on to see if it is even close to being accurate, that person or people Would be Screwed...
My whole post was written to be scathing of that person Who Gave you this Aweful information. So i would kindly ask you as you asked me to Learn to Read a Whole Post and Not Take bits and pieces and turn the entire post around and Also to Not insert words that Are Non Existent.
Maybe, just maybe we are Both a tad guilty of what you accuse me of, maybe I could have written my post and specifically said I was Not "having a go" at you but rather the person who you were Quoting Bad Information that they gave to you.

Very Much Like Yourself I Only give out info  as it Pertains to myself with my specific dealings and my having Reseached these laws with Immigration Authorities who Are in Supervisory positions. As said in original post, I am Not A Know It All, But Have Been thru the Process of Obtaining a Tourist Visa, an extension of it, Obtaining a Family Reunion Visa and Lastly having Successfully Obtained My CRNM. I have Kept Extremely detailed Notes of All, names and phone numbers of various Brazilian Immigration officials. Also as in have said previously, I Did Overstay my Tourist Visa, Left and went to Uruguay And Could not Come Back until My Yearly Calendar for my allowable days in Brasil Reset on my Tourist Visa Or I Obtained a Different Type of Visa. And That is what I did, Obtained my Family Reunion Visa, reentered and began process of obtaining my CRNM.
Again, Wasnt trying to be rude, go back and read it.
Cheers

Hi Lawrence,

I'm not here to argue or go back and fourth, at no point did I tell Ed to do anything. If you read my third post I suggested he goes to his local FP and double check!! If the information that was given to me by the FP is wrong then it's wrong!! But like every one else here on this public forum I was sharing my experience, and if we don't have the freedom of doing this then what's the point? Whether what we are being told is wrong or not, until now i am only aware of what I was told was false. There are many people just like myself sharing their experiences with others and may not necessarily be correct to no fault of their own but they don't seem to get the responses I got. Anyways I think Ed knows my intentions were only trying to help, perhaps you can give him one of your contacts and they could provide him with the correct information to rectify his situation.

Again, like you i am not trying to get into match with you and Never Implied that You Were Intentionally Trying to Harm him nor anyone! I understand what You as well as most people are doing here with their posts and that is trying to be Helpful to others with your experience.
Quit taking this so damn Personally especially when I never intended for you to get so bent! I tried to tell you this in previous post, that I was Not attacking you then or now and maybe I could have written my post to be more specific to make sure that All who Read it understand that I was  being negative especially toward the person, the FP who gave you this information initially . But I didnt like having words Placed into my mouth or post that were never said Nor Implied and that I was clear about.
You do admit to the false information that was given to You and I knew at the time of my Reply at how wrong it was. My Only Objective was Like you and that was to be of help to anyone who read that and to Warn that it Is Incorrect and Could Lead to Someone actually Screwing Self if they did what that FP told you to do. I as I said Left the country and went to Uruguay and My Days Allowable to be in Brasil Did Not Reset like that FP Told you they Would. I am fortunate that I have a Means to Support myself in situations like this, as I Got Stuck in Uruguay when I Was Not Allowed Back Into Brasil until my Calendar of days reset or I Obtained a New Type of Visa! But Alot of people Do Not Have the Resources I Have and I am Aware of this (and I Thank God for this Everyday)

Alot of people as you probably know, They Read Something on the Internet and because it is in black and white They Believe it is Factual and Act Upon it without doing Any Further Research or Fact Finding...
I guess the good thing that came out of this is that people who have read all these posts have been Enlightened to What the Law of Brasil is, I Hope anyhow.

Last time I say it, I meant nothing bad towards you, I Understand your intentions are good....Mine are Also!
Lawrence

That's info I did not know about specifically  different countries of the EU are only limited to 90 days and no Extensions...Very Good information for people from every different nation to know before they make a long and extended Journey Like you say! Because not having this correct information can certainly create many problems for people, many problems that they never think about until the problem hits them directly.
Cheers!

Update:

We are now married ❤️   16 days start to finish. We had prepared and prepared plus had an absolutely wonderful cartório. It took nine hours and many ubers and many agencies -nervewracking-to get all of the paperwork submitted and approved, but we got it done in a day. .  The actual final wedding ceremony at the cartorio was very Moving. Many friends and family, everyone cried.
I did get my passport copy apostiled in DC which was indeed necessary

Congratulations, and much happiness! 

For those interested in naturalization, the second Celpe-Bras exam that will be offered this year was announced on July 31 for October.  Registration started today, August 5, and continues until August 18 ONLY.  The full Edital, with all the details, appears here:
http://www.in.gov.br/web/dou/-/edital-n … -208263871

GregSaoPaulo wrote:

Update:

We are now married ❤️   16 days start to finish. We had prepared and prepared plus had an absolutely wonderful cartório. It took nine hours and many ubers and many agencies -nervewracking-to get all of the paperwork submitted and approved, but we got it done in a day. .  The actual final wedding ceremony at the cartorio was very Moving. Many friends and family, everyone cried.
I did get my passport copy apostiled in DC which was indeed necessary

Greg, hello! For starters - parabéns!!!! to you and your betrothed!

I'm wondering what you mean about having your passport copy apostilled in DC? From your post, I'm assuming you are an American. I find a lot of conflicting information about what documents are actually required from Americans to present to the various Brazilian agencies. Won't the US Consulate in Brazil, or the Cartorio itself make and authenticate copies of your passport?

I'm just trying to make sure I have ALL my necessary documents in order (with my i's dotted and my t's crossed, no doubt) BEFORE I arrive in Brazil to tie the knot.

Howdy kitty
Brazilian Consulates will no longer legalize foreign documents issued by countries which are also a party to the 1961 Hague Convention.
I would look for a translating party Brazil. Cartorio a finnicky in some areas about translation services in the US. They do not like "certified" copies either.
I did use apostillepro in the US with many documents for translation and legalized.
Only issue I really had was birth certificate. I got a short form (without mother and father's name) and had to go back to state and order long form an again translate, etc.
If new husband could get a US Visa, it is easier to get married here. I got tried of all the issues in Brasil with the CRMN process and last trip to US with my Brazilian wife we married in Las Vegas and had the certificate and items translated and legalized for us, they sent to me in Brasil
Also there is the domestic partnership process here and the cartorio will give you a check list. Have future hubby go there and get the list. This will help getting your CRMN and not worry about visa deadlines.
Congrats and good luck

I forgot to add phone issues. If you will have US banking while in BR many US banks will not accept skype calls and international calling is nothing here. Check skype or vonage to set up a US number with either. Once you have the US phone number with either you can call banks.
Have you got your CPF? You can do that at BR Consulate in US or here in BR. You will need to begin the CRNM asap,. You will need it for bank account. Also get a cell phone plan in BR and have the bill mailed to your address. (You need utility in your name)

Texanbrazil wrote:

Howdy kitty
Brazilian Consulates will no longer legalize foreign documents issued by countries which are also a party to the 1961 Hague Convention.
I would look for a translating party Brazil. Cartorio a finnicky in some areas about translation services in the US. They do not like "certified" copies either.
I did use apostillepro in the US with many documents for translation and legalized.
Only issue I really had was birth certificate. I got a short form (without mother and father's name) and had to go back to state and order long form an again translate, etc.
If new husband could get a US Visa, it is easier to get married here. I got tried of all the issues in Brasil with the CRMN process and last trip to US with my Brazilian wife we married in Las Vegas and had the certificate and items translated and legalized for us, they sent to me in Brasil
Also there is the domestic partnership process here and the cartorio will give you a check list. Have future hubby go there and get the list. This will help getting your CRMN and not worry about visa deadlines.
Congrats and good luck

Hey Tex, thanks for your awesome reply!
Thanks for the tip about Apostillepros. I will definitely look into their translation services. I had to order a new certified copy of my birth certificate through the state where I was born (NJ) before they would apostille it - even though my birth certificate is long form, with my parents names, it was issued by the city where I was born and not the state. So I'm waiting on that.
I have to also have my passport translated, right?
Future hubby and I did go down to our local cartorio (Brasilia) and get a list of paperwork needed for our marriage, but it is very short, and I feel it can't really be this simple, can it?! It just says I need: longform birth certificate, declaration of single marital status, and authenticated copies of my passport and latest visa entry into Brazil, and that all have to be apostilled, translated by a publically sworn translator, and registered with the local cartorio. And that's it?

My fiance and I don't want to bother trying to get a US visa for us to marry in the States, we've heard too many recent stories of people being denied visas for no legitimate reason. The cost of application is too expensive to chance it, for us.

What would be the advantage of getting the CRMN before we marry? I understand that it would allow me to stay in the country, but if we wait to marry until after the holidays, I should be able to get a full 180 days (should we need that long) to stay legally on a tourist visa. I plan to apply for permanency immediately upon receiving our marriage license. I don't have a CPF because I didn't think you could get one without being married to a Brazilian or having some sort of stable job in Brazil first? I thought that all of this stuff came after the marriage - can you possibly clear this up for me? Thank you!

Kitty,

Texbrasil's advice is right on.
Strange about your birth certificate.  If you by chance were born in New York City, New York State has special rules for that -- let me know in your return message if that's the case, I can fill you in. 
I absolutely believe Greg's experience that he needed to have his passport copy apostilled -- every cartório is different -- but this is the ONLY case I've ever heard of in which a Brazilian authority has required an apostille on a passport.  It doesn't even make sense, if they understood the Apostille Convention correctly.  The good news is that your cartório in Brasília sounds more sophisticated, and I think that you can trust their document list.
You don't ordinarily need to have your passport translated -- passports are different --, but you do need to have the copy authenticated by a cartório.  If it can be the same cartório where you'll be married, so much the better, since you'll already be a paying customer.
I doubt that the CRNM process for domestic partners would work in your favor at this point; marriage will be simpler.  Just make sure that your plans take the cartório's marriage schedule into consideration, so you don't overstay your visa.  You may need to get married privately in the cartório to make the timing work, and then redo everything later unofficially for the big party.
Yes, you should get your CPF ASAP.  You can do it at your nearest Receita Federal office, same day.
I'm currently in the naturalization process, and I've used National Apostille, Inc. in Washington for apostilles, with good results.  So, now you have two names, and can compare prices and services.  I know that National handles both state and federal apostilles.  That's important, because the State Department won't apostille documents from a state, and the state apostille authorities won't apostille federal dcouments.
Brasília may have a competitive market for Sworn Translators.  We definitely do not here in Amazonas, so I've been using Fidelity for mine, with good success.  They accept electronic versions of documents, and return the translation in a printer-friendly, electronic format.  The signature is electronic and verifiable online, which initially confuses some organizations, but I haven't had a translation rejected yet.
Since you're in Brasília anyway (and so don't need to travel), I want to second Texbrasil's suggestion on marrying in the US, if your budget and schedule allow it.  My husband and I did it in 2017, just because it was more convenient for us, but I'm grateful every time I read about someone else's cartório experience that we did it that way.  The beauty is that, once you're married and the Brazilian Consulate in the US has recorded your marriage on their books and issued you the "Certidão" for registration in Brazil, the cartório loses all discretion over your marriage, and their job becomes purely ministerial:  they HAVE to record the document you bring from the Consulate, and register your marriage.  An additional benefit is that you end up married in both countries.  Marriage in the US is governed by state, not federal law, so you can't register your Brazilian marriage at the US Consulate for it to have legal effect in the US.  You can register it in your home state, of course, but you probably have to be there to do it. 
The result of the way we did it is that we have an Illinois Marriage Certificate good throughout the US, a Certidão de Casamento from the Brazilian Consulate General in Chicago, and a Traslado de Casamento from the Cartório do 1o Ofício in Manaus.  We're SO married, that I tell people that I'm not sure where we'd start, if we ever wanted to undo it all!  LOL
Good luck, and congratulations!

Abthree, thanks so much for your informative and detailed reply! Your expertise at this marriage process will definitely come in handy for me.

I think getting married in the US would absolutely be easier, bureaucratically, but we've just heard so many stories of people being denied Visitor Visas for the US that we honestly haven't even tried. And the K-1 fiance visa process is incredibly expensive. I wouldn't mind how long it takes, but it's the $5-6k pricetag (not including airfare of course) that gets me.

As paperwork-intensive as it is, it seems like getting married the Brazilian way is the best option for us.

Good choice on the K-1:  it really makes no sense, unless the couple is planning on living in the US after marrying.  That was never our plan, so we didn't even consider it. 

If someone can guide me to the answered question I have that would be great otherwise  I'm going as a tourist and maybe wanting to stay longer.

I was thinking of marrying my partner however it seems like it's a very lengthy process, would it be easier to marry in another country then coming back to do the whole process? If so where would be the easiest option for us both?

I have gotten my single certificate and have everything else but I don't really have time to send it off in my country, The other option is to just visit Brazil then go back to my country and fix everything and go back again to marry him if that is easier.

Any advice would be great! Thanks

I'm Australian he is Brazilian.

Vanessa
I outlined my thoughts on the advantages of marrying abroad and registering the marriage subsequently in Brazil in my response to kittybiscuits above.  The transportation costs between Brazil and Australia may make that undesirable for you.
If you're still in Australia and want to get married in Brazil, the best thing your fiancé can do is to go to the cartório where you'll be married, become known by the staff there, and nail down in detail and in person all the Australian documents you'll need, and any special requirements for them, and let you know.  That way, you'll arrive in Brazil with everything legalized, in order, and ready to be translated and presented to the cartório.  If you do that shortly after arrival, you should have time to get married and apply for your CRNM before your tourist visa expires.

Thank abthree, very good advice. I think I will follow your suggestion - just to confirm its fine to do this all on a tourist visa?

VanessaC91 wrote:

Thank abthree, very good advice. I think I will follow your suggestion - just to confirm its fine to do this all on a tourist visa?

Yes, there's no legal impediment to getting married on a tourist visa.  The main challenge is time, which can be managed with good preparation, and by gently pushing the various processes along, not just letting nature take its course.  Keep the final objective in view:  and that's NOT the wedding, it's the Protocolo from the Federal Police that says that you're a permanent resident. 

abthree has given great advice. Be prepared. It takes longer if you do not have a document(s) and having to wait for such from home country.
Also have your history of how you met and when for the interview(s). Get a cell number in brazil and have the bill sent to the residence you two will be living and it can serve as the requirement of having a proof of address in Brazil.
The protocol does allow you to stay and wait for approval.
Good luck and best wishes.

Perfect, thanks again I really appreciate it! I'll make sure to update how the process is going. I might have some time to fix up paperwork before I head off - wish me luck