International Relations

B2 is pretty common for 10 or 11 year old non-native speakers of English in any half reasonable school in Indonesia (and the rest of the world)

You need C1 or C2 to get through an A level with a decent result.

B2 is less of a massive hill, and more of a small ant hill. The sort that might be built by very lazy midget ants with extremely nasty physical defects.

For those who don't know (including those who claim to):

The following applies to non-native speakers of English (and other languages)

Pre A1 is the start for CEFR

A1 is pretty basic

A2 is the sort of level you would expect a grade 3 primary student to be at.

B1 is fine for grade 4, but you want B2 by the end of grade 5.

Students need B1/B2 level reading and writing to pass Primary Checkpoint at 11 or 12 years old.

A native speaker at B1 might be found in adult education facilities for people with severe learning difficulties.

My Indonesian is at B2, and I've never had a lesson.

@fluffy2560
The only true British workers in care homes were uni students working in the holidays, my sister worked in one when she was at university, but as you said m as mainly were overseas.
Even in Austria, they tend to be from Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia. Our neighbour had a couple of live in carers, they would work 2 weeks on 2 weeks off. They were Romanian.

As for language naturalization, B2 is pretty much the norm in Europe. It is for Austria and Germany. Belgium is bringing in a new rule on 1st July. They are increasing the fee from €150 to €1000 and having B2 level in one of their languages depending on where they live.

In Austria you also need to know the history of the country. I know a few that have taken Austrian citizenship. Quite expensive because they also had to give up their British passport. - @SimCityAT

That sounds bad - fees and standards.

Austria sounds a bit similar to here about the history but on the simplified naturalisation, if you're over 60, it doesn't matter as there's an exemption.  There's a constitutional exam which is entirely in Hungarian so this also serves as the Hungarian language test.   

However, if over 60, they test the language competence "through other means" which is probably an interview style discussion with the applicant.   There's no B2 criteria etc as far as I know.   

Hungary allows dual nationality, so it's not necessary to give up British citizenship.  Bit of a step too far.

On the care issue,  the British one was an older person, not of student age.  But it was the only one as I said we saw.  My Dad passed very quickly.  He was only in there a month before he departed so his interactions were quite minimal and we weren't there all the time. 

B2 is pretty common for 10 or 11 year old non-native speakers of English in any half reasonable school in Indonesia (and the rest of the world)
You need C1 or C2 to get through an A level with a decent result.
B2 is less of a massive hill, and more of a small ant hill. The sort that might be built by very lazy midget ants with extremely nasty physical defects.

For those who don't know (including those who claim to):
The following applies to non-native speakers of English (and other languages)
Pre A1 is the start for CEFR
A1 is pretty basic
A2 is the sort of level you would expect a grade 3 primary student to be at.
B1 is fine for grade 4, but you want B2 by the end of grade 5.
Students need B1/B2 level reading and writing to pass Primary Checkpoint at 11 or 12 years old.

A native speaker at B1 might be found in adult education facilities for people with severe learning difficulties.
My Indonesian is at B2, and I've never had a lesson. - @Fred

WTF are you talking about?   

B2 (Vantage) is considered pretty advanced in CEFR.  I am not sure if we're all referring to the same thing.

I simply don't believe Indonesian kids at 11 or 12 are in anyway proficient in English over and above adult learners or bilingual native speakers (>=16 years).  I see kids all the time as my own kids interact with them.  Most of them are not that good in English.   They are as good as they are expected to be at that age.

One thing we know here in HU is that English language assessments are not made by native speakers.   No-one can be attracted to those jobs.   We know lots of translators and interpreters and we know for a fact that (non-native) English teachers here get things wrong all the time.  My daughter tried to correct them but they weren't having any of it.  There's a problem of education here. It's almost a crisis.

BTW, there's a Hungarian movie on Netflix called Black Mark ("Fekete Pont") all about the Hungarian education system.  It's very true to life I'm told and shows how bad it's become here.  Worth a look but slow moving.

@fluffy2560

I also joke my missus English is better than mine, she is certainly C2 and only learnt English at school. Then again, everyone I know 50 and below all speak English although they say they don't. But then again a couple of people in their 70s speak it just fine.

When I moved over I ment a gentleman he must have been in 80s and he had to learn Russian because between 1945 & 1955 our area was under Russian control. He did speak good English because he worked in Vienna in the English part and kept it up after 1955.

Even my fil was A2 quite surprised really because he never had any use for it, and no idea where he would have picked it up from. It certainly wasn't from the radio or TV because his type of music was Austropop and traditional Austrian folk music which is completely in German.

Even my fil was A2 quite surprising really because he never had any use for it, and no idea where he would have picked it up from. It certainly wasn't from the radio or TV because his type of music was Austropop and traditional Austrian folk music which is completely in German. - @SimCityAT

I know those Austropop and oompah music channels.  Really dreadful.   We have similar things here.  We also have a Gypsy channel which seems to be mainly kitsch and tacky stage shows with miming.  I really don't know if anyone watches it.  I suppose it fulfils a schedule.

Austria probably had far more exposure to Western languages than over here in HU. 

My FIL was also a Russian speaker (teacher of it actually).  And of course a teacher of Hungarian.  My MIL didn't speak a word of English that would be of any use - she was also a Hungarian teacher.  My MIL was born in 1946 and my FIL must have been born in the same year.   So it was a sign of the times. My FIL told me he went to Russia to study Russian - to Moscow.  Once the change had occurred in 1989/90, it was all over for Russian speakers.  I don't think he professionally used his Russian knowledge again.   

BTW, our daughter only went for the B exam.  I think now she's a bit older, she could just do the CEFR C exam. I think it'll be a walk in the park for her as she's really sharp on languages.    She's writing her university papers in English and Hungarian.  And she's planning to do the ToEFL course (Teaching of English as a Foreign Language) to expand her travel opportunities.  For native speakers, it's supposed to be a walk in the park at C2/C1.

@fluffy2560

Teenagers here especially the girls seem to like the likes of Taylor Swift, you always here them playing it on their mobiles when you pass them in the street. Gawd knows what you call some of the music the lads play, some kind of German thrash metal, basically noise. On the other hand they do play English and American music that you can understand.

@fluffy2560
Teenagers here especially the girls seem to like the likes of Taylor Swift, you always here them playing it on their mobiles when you pass them in the street. Gawd knows what you call some of the music the lads play, some kind of German thrash metal, basically noise. On the other hand they do play English and American music that you can understand. - @SimCityAT

Music certainly builds international relations.    Over here, K-Pop bands and TV shows are widely appreciated by the younger set.   

I haven't noticed any Chinese music playing. 

But we've got increasing numbers of Chinese people as I've often said.  But we're not seeing cultural aspects like music reaching us yet.  Eventually we might see that.

Katie Perry also turns up around here.  But interestingly there are Hungarian singers which are on the ascendant.  There's a strong fan base developing for them.

@fluffy2560

Oh, and of course, we do have a lot of Turkish music played. It's not my kind of music, I switch off. It does piss me off when they play it on the train, in fact any music. I will tell them to shut up.

Important Event in International Relations:

Eurovision Song Contest Grand Final

17th May 2025 21h CET

Important Event in International Relations:
Eurovision Song Contest Grand Final

17th May 2025 21h CET - @fluffy2560

Oh gawd it's that time of year again. I've heard the UK entry but none of the others.

Ok, just listening to Austria....... Damn he can hit the high notes 🎶

Important Event in International Relations:
Eurovision Song Contest Grand Final

17th May 2025 21h CET - @fluffy2560
Oh gawd it's that time of year again. I've heard the UK entry but none of the others.
Ok, just listening to Austria....... Damn he can hit the high notes 🎶 - @SimCityAT

Haha, it's like Marmite, love it or hate it!

WTF are you talking about? B2 (Vantage) is considered pretty advanced in CEFR. I am not sure if we're all referring to the same thing.I simply don't believe Indonesian kids at 11 or 12 are in anyway proficient in English over and above adult learners or bilingual native speakers (>=16 years). I see kids all the time as my own kids interact with them. Most of them are not that good in English. They are as good as they are expected to be at that age. - @fluffy2560

B2 is nothing. I managed B2 Indonesian without a single lesson.

I will educate you.

You will notice it says "For schools"

Levels against IGCSE. As you see, B1 is a bit weak at O level.

https://www.cambridgeenglish.org/Images … .07.20.jpg

Primay checkpoint really needs B1 or better

Any half decent school gets its kids to B1 or B2 by grade 6. A native speaker of English can walk into any grade 5 class and have an age appropriate conversation without slowing down to aid understanding. A decent school gets its kids to B1 or B2 by grade 6.

A typical textbook for primary 6

https://elt.oup.com/catalogue/items/glo … anguage=id

Level: B2

Given Oxford and Cambridge Universities agree that B1 is required for primary checkpoint, perhaps you should believe 11 year old kids achieve B1 and B2 as the norm.

As for the kids you see, perhaps they attend rubbish schools, or maybe they're a bit dim.

WTF are you talking about? - @fluffy2560

As a note, it would be lovely if you could remain polite and stop using bad language.

Thank you

On the subject of CEFR language levels, I recommend you find out a little more before telling people how it works. Misleading information such as saying B2 is a high hurdle, might put some people off their potential expat journey.

In fact, B2 is mostly about a fair vocabulary, (learn common words first), and a half resonable command of grammar.

Most adult learners can manage happily.

For potential expats who are concerned about this barrier - don't be - it isn't that hard as long as you put some work into it.

WTF are you talking about?  - @fluffy2560
As a note, it would be lovely if you could remain polite and stop using bad language.
Thank you
On the subject of CEFR language levels, I recommend you find out a little more before telling people how it works. Misleading information such as saying B2 is a high hurdle, might put some people off their potential expat journey.
In fact, B2 is mostly about a fair vocabulary, (learn common words first), and a half reasonable command of grammar.
Most adult learners can manage happily.
For potential expats who are concerned about this barrier - don't be - it isn't that hard as long as you put some work into it. - @Fred

What do you think WTF could mean?

I corrected your spelling mistakes.

WTF are you talking about? B2 (Vantage) is considered pretty advanced in CEFR. I am not sure if we're all referring to the same thing.I simply don't believe Indonesian kids at 11 or 12 are in anyway proficient in English over and above adult learners or bilingual native speakers (>=16 years). I see kids all the time as my own kids interact with them. Most of them are not that good in English. They are as good as they are expected to be at that age.  - @fluffy2560
B2 is nothing. I managed B2 Indonesian without a single lesson.
I will educate you.
You will notice it says "For schools"
Levels against IGCSE. As you see, B1 is a bit weak at O level.
https://www.cambridgeenglish.org/Images … .07.20.jpg

Primary checkpoint really needs B1 or better

Any half decent school gets its kids to B1 or B2 by grade 6. A native speaker of English can walk into any grade 5 class and have an age appropriate conversation without slowing down to aid understanding. A decent school gets its kids to B1 or B2 by grade 6.

A typical textbook for primary 6
https://elt.oup.com/catalogue/items/glo … anguage=id
Level: B2

Given Oxford and Cambridge Universities agree that B1 is required for primary checkpoint, perhaps you should believe 11 year old kids achieve B1 and B2 as the norm.

As for the kids you see, perhaps they attend rubbish schools, or maybe they're a bit dim. - @Fred

I think it's chalk and cheese. 

B2 Vantage for Business is going to be a far higher standard on fluency and vocabulary than it will be for the school kids.  My German used to be business level.  The subject matter of those kinds of conversations would be way beyond Year 6 children's knowledge.  So I think your Indonesian experience does not correlate with what I've seen.   

Schools here are indeed rubbish - watch the Netflix film I mentioned and you can see what people are up against here.   That's the public school system.  The private school system is far better but it's an arm and a leg unaffordable to most people. 

Yet Hungary still historically churns out its share of scientists, doctors and engineers - usually they clear off to another country before they win their Nobel prizes elsewhere.   I don't remember any Indonesian Nobel prize winners myself but I am sure you're prepared to enlighten us.

I  corrected your spelling and typos (again).

What do you think WTF could mean?
I corrected your spelling mistakes. - @fluffy2560

It's swearing in disguise.

Add the errors you might have found, and I've failed twice.

I thought I'd helped to educate a mouth as clueless as it is big, but it appears not.

Also, attacking typos is generally considered to be the doman of people with no ability to argue using logical and demonstrable points.

Just admit you have neither experience nor clue about CEFR so posters can ignore your incoherent, uninformed ramblings.

For people reading this thread, if you can properly understand the posts, you are likely to be at or close to B2.

It's swearing in disguise.Add the errors you might have found, and I've failed twice.I thought I'd helped to educate a mouth as clueless as it is big, but it appears not.Also, attacking typos is generally considered to be the domain of people with no ability to argue using logical and demonstrable points.Just admit you have neither experience nor clue about CEFR so posters can ignore your incoherent, uninformed ramblings.For people reading this thread, if you can properly understand the posts, you are likely to be at or close to B2. - @Fred

Haha, funny guy!  I can assure you I've got plenty of education.  I'm not so sure about you.   

WTF could mean a number of things, not necessarily the one you might have been thinking of.

Anyway, my expert on CEFR is at her Uni Italian lessons.  I got our daughter's English level wrong, it's C1 and for Spanish, B2 as she ran out of time but now estimates she's C2 or C1.  Both acquired at age 16.   

And anyway,  I'm 64 and allowed to make the odd mistake.

Anyway, how did you get on finding an Indonesian Nobel laureate?   Yup, no-one, except a Dutch import doctor in the 1920s.  Hungary on the other hand has rather a lot.   I rest my case m'lud.

And yet again, spelling Nazi or not, I corrected your post for spelling.

I read the UK government saying it's prepared to let Indian firms send people at 80% of the average salary for the jobs they've classified as being required (i.e. shortage).

So what they'll do is pay this imported person 50% of the amount on the indicated salary but declare them as valued at 80% on a charge out rate, i.e. within the government guidelines.   That 30% difference then goes into extra profits of the Indian company.   They'll say internal pay scales and profitability are the company's own business. 

An engineer gets a charge out rate of say $250 in India but personally gets $100.  The extra $150 is BS'd as support services or backstopping or similar.   

Government is being naïve.

Since I have not worked in over 15 some years I was not sure what a DEI hire was.

My friends grandson is one, his mom was asking everyone to sign a petition to save his job.

I honestly did not care considering my friend as gone  no contact for a couple years with everyone.

Only reach out to us when they want something? No forget it.

Her grandson has serious autism. He is perhaps 24 now and a huge guy. He used to get over excited in public and run inside shops!

Had allot of therapy  at tax payers expense and my friend and her husband are super wealthy. Own a slate mine and 110 acres of forest land in N.Ca; She has gotten too good for everyone.

Even went no contact with her own brother! It is only the two of them.

Well, people change I suppose, not always for the better either.

Her girl wanted everyone to sign so he would not be fired as a DEI hire at his job in a grocery store.

I do not get it, either he can do his job or he can not.

I heard from other dealers in Vegas that many of the Asian dealers were subsidized hires. The gov. gave a tax break to the casinos for these hires. IDK if it is true or not but makes sense since so many dealers are from Asia.

There's a Radio Schuman podcast on Euronews on Orban's interference/vetoes on EU-Ukraine expansion etc. 

It's the Irish PM commentating on the situation - there's a longer interview tomorrow.

Click here for that.

There's also an interesting discussion about Romania and the Hungarian minority's support for the pro-MAGA candidate.   It seems to me the courting of the Hungarians in Romania is not going to sway the vote in the direction of the right wing "previously" anti-Hungarian candidate Simion, despite the strong alignment of the ethnic Hungarians to Orban's Fidesz.   

The EU-leaning candidate Dan could well carry the day simply because he's not Simion and (supposedly) never made any anti-Hungarian statements.   

BTW, we won't know the non-binding result about the HU "national consultation" on Ukraine's EU membership until after 20 June.   Obviously pretty much a vote FOR Ukraine is a vote AGAINST Orban.  One would have to see that as a precursor/indicator vote on the national election. 

Meanwhile, I note there are no pro-Ukraine pro-EU billboards up.  Either no-one FOR is prepared to put their head up and risk being shot at or Orban is controlling all the advertising space (but that's an old story).

From Sky News

The government has just published its full proposals to change Britain's legal immigration system.

As we work our way through the mammoth 82-page document, here are some of the main points:

Government will create a Labour Market Evidence Group to use data to make decisions about the state of the Labour market and reduce reliance on international recruitment;

There will be an increase to the minimum salary requirement for skilled workers at graduate level - and discounts from that threshold will be abolished;

Only occupations with long-term shortages will be able to recruit from abroad - as long as a workforce strategy is in place and employers are committed to increasing domestic recruitment;

Social care visas will be scrapped completely - and during a transition period until 2028, visa extensions and changes of type of visa will be allowed;

New requirements will be imposed for educational institutions recruiting international students to ensure compliance with the law;

The length of time graduates can remain in the UK after their studies will be reduced from five years to 18 months;

Legislation will be passed to rebalance the right to a family life in the Human Rights Act that can "frustrate deportation where removal is clearly in the public interest";

The government will increase visa opportunities for "the very highly skilled" who "have the right skills and experience to supercharge UK growth in strategic industries".

There will be much closer scrutiny of the cases of individuals who claim asylum in the UK after arriving on a visa, particularly where "conditions in their home country have not materially changed";

"Measures" will be taken to ensure other government support the return of their nationals;

Ensuring the Home Office is aware of any foreign national who commits a criminal offence, rather than just those go to prison - and there will be a review of the thresholds for deporting foreign national offenders;

New English language requirements for both applicants and dependents, with "an assessment of improvements over time";

Doubling the qualifying period for gaining settled status from five to 10 years.

I got our daughter's English level wrong - @fluffy2560

and with it, the whole trust of the post.

Your point was all about a level being hard and how difficult it was for your daughter.

I have no clue if you are now lying about her level as you made her sound really stupid in your post post on the subject.

My only point is all about how wrong you are regarding CEFR levels.

Speeling apart, you ate still wrong but, even upon being educated on the subject, you tried to make yourself sound right by bringing a specific form of English into the mix.

One that has nothing to do with immigration, and one at the same level as the one in question.

As for spelling, my big fingers aren't much good on a phone keyboard, so I don't really care.

If that's your best defence against your ignorance being called out, you really should try harder.

Now to the topic. B2 for immigration isn't much of a deal. Posters should not be put off by uninformed members who talk utter balderdash about how hard it is.

Put some work in, and most will get there in a couple of years from a zero start.

If you already have a fair level of vocabulary, a lot faster.

From Sky News
The government has just published its full proposals to change Britain's legal immigration system.

As we work our way through the mammoth 82-page document, here are some of the main points:

- @SimCityAT

It doesn't look like Sky News do much reading. Thomas Hardy's excellent "The Mayor of Casterbridge" has over 400 pages, and that's a junior high school thing. I would hate to think of what what they would say about the 1,400 pages (give or take) War and Peace has.

From Sky News
The government has just published its full proposals to change Britain's legal immigration system.

As we work our way through the mammoth 82-page document, here are some of the main points:

- @SimCityAT
It doesn't look like Sky News do much reading. Thomas Hardy's excellent "The Mayor of Casterbridge" has over 400 pages, and that's a junior high school thing. I would hate to think of what what they would say about the 1,400 pages (give or take) War and Peace has. - @Fred

Wtf are you on about? You can talk as much crap as you like, everyone will just ignore you. Go back to listening to The Archers on Radio 4, theirs a good little boy.

From Sky NewsThe government has just published its full proposals to change Britain's legal immigration system....... - @SimCityAT

I fear for my friend from Myanmar.  I was somewhat her sponsor.   She's already been in the UK about 4 years, at least 2 years past completing her Master's degree.  She's gainfully employed in a specialist environmental industry and conducted herself very well on integration - her English is excellent (she was a translator) and she's learnt to drive so she can get around sites.  I really hope they don't want her to leave as she's such an asset to the UK.  I hoping she can get or has already got Indefinite Leave to Remain. I was trying to help her find a government job. She's perfectly qualified for the Environment Agency (for example).

@fluffy2560

I'm hoping it's just for new arrivals and not for the ones that are already in the country, that would be just unfair.

@fluffy2560
I'm hoping it's just for new arrivals and not for the ones that are already in the country, that would be just unfair. - @SimCityAT

Yes, one might hope it's not for those in the UK already.  It's got to be a reaction to Reform.   I know someone intimately involved with Reform and it's just one of the many mis-directed rabbit holes people go down.  I'm still friends with that person.  I've known that person for 30 years.  So far it's survived  but  their "radicalisation" is taking a toll on me.  I hope we can continue past it.

Usually these people are marginalised and aren't really harmful but nowadays, people are actively taking up involvement and even getting in power on single issues.  That's likely to become incredibly damaging longer term.   

Reform are generally pretty crap, but they have a legitimate point about mass, uncontrolled immigration.

The longer it goes on, the more people will turn to the extreme right.

It's like an illness. If it isn't too bad, most will live with a bit of discomfort.

However, when a cancer heads towards terminal, people will accept more and more extreme cures.

If you want an extreme government, be stupid about immigration.

The criminal element should be deported as quickly as possible so normal, harmless, and commonly welcome migrants can live in peace.

I see Trump has jetted off to see MBS while Zelensky may meet Putin in Istanbul. 

Rumour is that Putin is not going to turn up. 

What will Trump do?  Is he finally going to be convinced Putin is not interested in peace?

This one takes a very large biscuit*:

Hungary ruling party drafts bill to crack down on foreign-funded organisations

".....The legislation, submitted late on Tuesday, would allow the Sovereignty Protection Office (SPO) to draw up a list of foreign-funded legal entities whose activities are considered to be a threat.

They could be listed if the SPO says their activities "undermine Hungary’s independent, democratic and rule-of-law-based character" or violate Hungary’s constitutional identity or Christian culture.

Challenging the primacy of marriage, the family and biological sexes would also be considered a threat...."

I can see that being challenged pronto in the EU.  It could pass in the parliament.  The anti-Pride legislation passed and we thought it wouldn't.

I think the time has now come for Hungary to be suspended from EU membership (pending a referendum post-2026 election result) in other EU states to throw Hungary out of the union.   In the meantime, legislation may need to be passed in Brussels to allow majority voting on the subject.

Alternative reporting here - Russian-style bill targeting independent press and NGOs tabled in Hungarian parliament

(*this was brought to my attention by my 19 year old daughter.  It's of great concern to her and now all of us).

Alternative reporting here - Russian-style bill targeting independent press and NGOs tabled in Hungarian parliament(*this was brought to my attention by my 19 year old daughter. It's of great concern to her and now all of us). - @fluffy2560

You mean "American style bill"

See FARA from 1938.

The reason Hungary is doing this is because the CIA (Using the NED and others) is actively infiltrating news organisations and NGOs all over the world.

The law is not just a good idea, it's essential to protect that country from the CIA.

https://hungarytoday.hu/over-two-years- … internews/

The Sovereignty Protection Office has identified Internews as an organization that channeled US public funds to media critical of the Hungarian government, they wrote in a statement.

According to the statement, the investigation proved that “media support programs launched from the United States of America do not merely provide technical assistance, but also impose ideological and political expectations on the supported editorial offices.” They added that Internews works to create narratives that allow US progressive elites to put pressure on governments and decision-makers in those countries.

Internews is a US-based non-profit organization founded in 1982.

I know the cry will be about biased, pro-government mouthpieces making up stories, so have one from the  horses mouth in Indonesia.

https://www.asia-pacific-solidarity.net … -cuts.html

Jeff Hutton – Last November, Jakarta-based Muhamad Heychael, program director at nonprofit media organization Remotivi, began offering small grants to local journalists to report on the nickel mines and smelters proliferating in remote corners of Indonesia's far east.

Heychael and his colleagues chose 10 journalists hailing from places like Morowali on the island of Sulawesi and Obi Island in North Maluku province. Each got 10 million rupiah ($600) – money linked to an earlier USAID grant – to report on the impact the country's headlong rush to insert itself into the electric vehicle supply chain was having on their communities.

USAID indirectly paid journalists to write stories that were designed to turn the public away from Chinese funded investment projects in Indonesia.

Personally, I believe the US spy agencies should be expelled, and the traitors working for them arrested, tried, and executed if found guilty. Hungary is absolutely right in creating a US style law to dig out foreign agents and local traitors.

.....The law is not just a good idea, it's essential to protect that country from the CIA. - @Fred

Ok, I'm completely convinced by your highly persuasive argument that everything is a CIA plot.

Now does anyone else here have something truly interesting and analytical to say about this proposed legislation?

......Personally, I believe the US spy agencies should be expelled, and the traitors working for them arrested, tried, and executed if found guilty. Hungary is absolutely right in creating a US style law to dig out foreign agents and local traitors. - @Fred

TLDR.  Yawn.

.....The law is not just a good idea, it's essential to protect that country from the CIA. - @Fred
Ok, I'm completely convinced by your highly persuasive argument that everything is a CIA plot.

Now does anyone else here have something truly interesting and analytical to say about this proposed legislation? - @fluffy2560

See the links - one left wing group admitting to working for the US in its own website

......Personally, I believe the US spy agencies should be expelled, and the traitors working for them arrested, tried, and executed if found guilty. Hungary is absolutely right in creating a US style law to dig out foreign agents and local traitors. - @Fred
TLDR. Yawn. - @fluffy2560

Read the links.

Only a fool would refuse evidence provided by the very people taking US money to weaken their own country.

It isn't a conspiracy when there is a direct admission of guilt.

Perhaps you could comment on the Russian style law that was modelled on the US law.

Why is it Russian, not American?

.