International Relations

It was Star Wars Day on the 4th May but the WH screwed it up (not unexpectedly):

Everyone (should) know the RED lightsabre is a sign of the evil empire, not the righteous rebel alliance (who have GREEN versions). Stop vs Go. You know the rest.

Tut-tut.... Trump....

which include the US and Russia. Both should be invited to leave as neither are our friends. - @ffluffy2560

What an ill thought out bit of demi-xenopbia.

What you're suggesting would take away expertise from developing a new, extremely high tech field that requires the best minds in the world.

You aren't talking about dumping the people who mop the floors.

Any action requires you to understand the advantages and disadvantages if you enact it.

That particular silliness would be great for China. Hang on, China is a member.

Just to move on, excluding scientists because you don't like their country is especially stupid as those people are not responsible for their government.

If they are, all Americans and Brits are guilty of the crimes committed in the Iraq invasion.

which include the US and Russia. Both should be invited to leave as neither are our friends.  - @ffluffy2560
What an ill thought out bit of demi-xenopbia.
What you're suggesting would take away expertise from developing a new, extremely high tech field that requires the best minds in the world.
You aren't talking about dumping the people who mop the floors.
Any action requires you to understand the advantages and disadvantages if you enact it.
That particular silliness would be great for China. - @Fred

Not really.

Russia is run by a warmonger who invaded Georgia and Ukraine and sows disinformation all over.  Those aren't the actions of a partner.

USA is no longer a reliable ally who throws away decades of alliances short term gain. Again, not a partner we'd expect.

I'm well aware that it's inevitable that China is going to benefit.  It's already benefiting.   No-one could expect anything different.

I'm suggesting ITER becomes a European+UK/Western (non-US) venture only. 

The unreliable ones (and the UK) are already doing their own work in parallel anyway.  You can ready about it via Mrs Google.

I'm suggesting ITER becomes a European+UK/Western (non-US) venture only. - @fluffy2560

But the UK is not a friend to the EU.

Remember Brexit

So, in your somewhat limited thinking, a project that has  the potential to save the world should be weakened in case  some of  the scientists who work there agree with their governments, even though the very fact they work there mean they aren't working for the governments you have been told to hate.

That's great thinking. Well done! NOT.

Russia is run by a warmonger who invaded Georgia and Ukraine and sows disinformation all over. - @fluffy2560

Tell the fine people of Iraq that the UK government is not.

Dodgy dossier,  anyone?

I'm suggesting ITER becomes a European+UK/Western (non-US) venture only.  - @fluffy2560
But the UK is not a friend to the EU.
Remember Brexit
So, in your somewhat limited thinking, a project that has the potential to save the world should be weakened in case some of the scientists who work there agree with their governments, even though the very fact they work there mean they aren't working for the governments you have been told to hate.

That's great thinking. Well done! NOT. - @Fred

Clueless as usual.

Clueless as usual. - @SimCityAT

The great trick to debate is well articulated argument that explains your position.

"Yer boo, you're wrong" doesn't quite get there.

Clueless as usual. - @SimCityAT
The great trick to debate is well articulated argument that explains your position.
"Yer boo, you're wrong" doesn't quite get there. - @Fred

You don't live in Europe, you don't follow the news which pretty obvious, so yes you're clearly clueless.

We all know about Brexit because we went through it. Your point is?

You don't live in Europe, you don't follow the news which pretty obvious, so yes you're clearly clueless.
We all know about Brexit because we went through it. Your point is? - @SimCityAT

The internet allows everyone to read the news from anywhere.

However, reading it and understanding it are not the same thing. You also have to remember history and ignore propaganda.

Silly little things such as Obama and Biden's Ukraine war comes to mind.

People think Putin started it, but to believe that you have to ignore the minor details about the US overthrowing the legitimate government of Ukraine, and NATO's threatening expansion toward Russia.

That's before you look at US gas sales that replaced far cheaper Russian gas.

You've been lied to ... again.

I thought people would have got the idea after the WMD rubbish, but clearly not.

If ignorance is bliss, you must be feeling pretty good.

I'm suggesting ITER becomes a European+UK/Western (non-US) venture only.  - @fluffy2560
But the UK is not a friend to the EU.
Remember Brexit
So, in your somewhat limited thinking, a project that has the potential to save the world should be weakened in case some of the scientists who work there agree with their governments, even though the very fact they work there mean they aren't working for the governments you have been told to hate.

That's great thinking. Well done! NOT. - @Fred

Let's not be naïve or simplistic about it. 

The EU is more a friend to the UK than Russia or the USA.  It's 10 years since the Brexit debate and its fall out and as you well know, the situation is now out of control.  The 48-52 Brexit debate (and let's throw in the twit Farage*) is now no longer relevant to the war on our doorstep. 

Russia and to a lesser extent the USA are now existential threats to wider Europe.  We cannot change where we are.  It's geography and geopolitics.   

There has to be far deeper collaboration with the EU and the UK especially over defence.  That supersedes Brexit BS.  Only France and the UK have a nuclear capability cum shield.  And there are solid defence companies across the European piste.  It has to be rationally organised.   It's a daily discussion from which European fighter jets will be bought (Gripen/Rafale/Eurofighter) to who supplies windfarms to Germany. 

IMHO, NATO or an emergent subset is going to have to be everyone currently in it bar the USA.  At least for now.      We cannot be in bed with our enemies.  At least not long term.  I can see wider and more formal alliances forming up with places like South Korea (they have solid military production).

So the upshot is, I don't see why these very large projects need an enemy agents either directly or by proxy right in their midst.   There's an issue over the ISS as well. 

*Since Reform's win, the only thing they've been discussing is which flags can fly over government buildings.  If Farage wants to be PM, he needs to get a grip on some bigger policies.

Russia and to a lesser extent the USA are now existential threats to wider Europe. - @fluffy2560

The US threat is economic and easy to see.

Please articulate the threat Russia poses.

I keep hearing how evil they are, but nobody has managed to explain why.

The Ukraine situation was caused by the US run revolution that removed the freely and fairly elected fully democratic government.

Putin felt saving Russian speakers from the revolution was required, then it was down to NATO's aggression in that war mongering group moved eastward, thus threatening Moscow.

Had NATO managed to conquer Ukraine, Moscow would have been open to a NATO pincer attack.

Russia and to a lesser extent the USA are now existential threats to wider Europe. - @fluffy2560
The US threat is economic and easy to see.
Please articulate the threat Russia poses.
I keep hearing how evil they are, but nobody has managed to explain why.
The Ukraine situation was caused by the US run revolution that removed the freely and fairly elected fully democratic government.
Putin felt saving Russian speakers from the revolution was required, then it was down to NATO's aggression in that war mongering group moved eastward, thus threatening Moscow.
Had NATO managed to conquer Ukraine, Moscow would have been open to a NATO pincer attack. - @Fred

The Russians have just fired a load of drones at Ukraine.  What more proof do you need? 

I'm not going to relitigate Russia and Ukraine history or fanciful delusions over NATO expansionist ambitions. We are where we are.  And clearly we don't need dictators like Putin (and wannabe Trump) telling us what's what. 

I'd like to see an integrated pan-greater Europe military-industrial complex emerge from this chaos.  It needs to supplant the USA.  So in some ways, maybe Trump will have done us a favour.   

I can see it happening but I wonder if the European allies can pull it off in a decent time.

I literally just heard on the radio Merz failed to become Chancellor of Germany.  That's really a problem as the Taurus missiles are urgently needed by Ukraine.

The Russians have just fired a load of drones at Ukraine. What more proof do you need?
I'm not going to relitigate Russia and Ukraine history or fanciful delusions over NATO expansionist ambitions. - @fluffy2560

As EU supplied armaments are being fired into Russia.

Are you trying to say NATO is expanding. History isn't on your side on that one.

I can provide a list if countries and dates, or just show you a map.

You attempt at a lie is less than clever.

Look at the dates.

Russia is under threat.

The Russians have just fired a load of drones at Ukraine. What more proof do you need?
I'm not going to relitigate Russia and Ukraine history or fanciful delusions over NATO expansionist ambitions.  - @fluffy2560
As EU supplied armaments are being fired into Russia.
Are you trying to say NATO is expanding. History isn't on your side on that one.
I can provide a list if countries and dates, or just show you a map.
You attempt at a lie is less than clever. - @Fred

Those accession countries voted to join.  It was their democratic decision.  Finland and Sweden joined because Russia is threatening them.  It's not rocket science.

Russia (and Fred) has a collective delusion NATO countries have designs on their country.  It's simply not true.  No-one is plotting to take over Russia.  We'd like Russia to be a "normal" country.

What I think (and hope) will happen is that Russia will eventually break up, possibly when Putin the dictator falls out of a window.  The cracks are everywhere there. A few other Central Asia dictators will eventually fall as well.   

Once it's broken apart, then they won't have the consolidated means to threaten anyone and we can all breathe easier.  China might take advantage of any impending chaos in Russia.  They play the long game so aren't going to waste resources invading (yet).

Those accession countries voted to join. - @fluffy2560

Did they?

Was that a general vote by the people, or just their politicians in the same way the UK's politicians voted for attacking Iraq?

An attempt to make it sound like a popular vote is a lie.

The Russians have just fired a load of drones at Ukraine. What more proof do you need?
- @fluffy2560

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 … nt-demands

The non-democratic Ukrainians have just fired a load of drones at Moscow.

What more proof do you need?

The Russians have just fired a load of drones at Ukraine. What more proof do you need?  - @fluffy2560https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 … nt-demandsThe non-democratic Ukrainians have just fired a load of drones at Moscow.What more proof do you need? - @Fred

I just knew you'd say that.  It's too predictable.

Besides, post-Maidan, Zelenskyy was democratically elected. Right now, it's tit-for-tat.

What's your solution?  Ukraine to be under Russia's boot and the USSR to return? 

Let's hear some practical solutions.

(p.s. Sweden and Finland joined NATO via parliamentary votes.  Good enough).

Besides, post-Maidan, Zelenskyy was democratically elected. Right now, it's tit-for-tat.

What's your solution? Ukraine to be under Russia's boot and the USSR to return?

Let's hear some practical solutions.

(p.s. Sweden and Finland joined NATO via parliamentary votes. Good enough). - @fluffy2560

Ah, so you must agree with the UK's attack on Iraq because the UK parliament voted for it, but not the people.

As such, you would hold partial responsibility for the mass killings in that country.

The Ukraine is not a democracy. it is a democracy except for the ethic Russians who were refused a vote.

There isn't a solution unless the US, UK, and EU back off in favour of a Russian administration that will hold actualy democratic elections. After all, they know they will win once true democracy has been restored and ALL Ukrainians are allowed to vote.

I can't understand why you are backing a US sponsored revolution that removed real democracy in favour os a sham of the same.

Ah, so you must agree with the UK's attack on Iraq because the UK parliament voted for it, but not the people.As such, you would hold partial responsibility for the mass killings in that country.The Ukraine is not a democracy. it is a democracy except for the ethic Russians who were refused a vote.There isn't a solution unless the US, UK, and EU back off in favour of a Russian administration that will hold actualy democratic elections. After all, they know they will win once true democracy has been restored and ALL Ukrainians are allowed to vote.I can't understand why you are backing a US sponsored revolution that removed real democracy in favour os a sham of the same. - @Fred

Let's forget about Iraq because it's ancient history right now. 

There's more nightmare discussion mileage about Gaza if you want to throw in a distraction.  That really is a can of worms for typical wrong footed US support. 

Perhaps we can at least agree I'm sure the US has never done much good historically in its wars?  Maybe Bosnia but that wasn't their effort alone.  Perhaps Kosovo? I was there so I know.

There's no way elections can be held in Ukraine now, not with intimidation through Russian occupation going on currently.  It's also martial law in UKR so it's just not going to happen in the immediate future.  Russia doesn't even obey its own ceasefires. It's utterly untrustworthy. 

The Maidan revolution was over closeness to the EU, not the United States.   It's only Russia that seeks to recreate the USSR.   This isn't a fiction.  We know what happened in Georgia as well as Ukraine and what seems to be creeping forward in Romania*.  I cannot believe people are so dumb supporting Putin but have no actual workable solution.

The only currently acceptable solution I can see is for Ukraine to win and Russia to withdraw back to the original borders.   If Putin dies in the meantime, that would be wholly acceptable.

Meanwhile, I trust Zelensky and the EU far more than I trust Trump or even Orban.  In Hungary, we're right here on Ukraine's doorstep.  I support Ukraine 110%.  Being so close to UKR, it's safe to say, we've got dogs in the race.

*BTW, bit of crystal ball gazing.  I could see UKR being invited into Moldova by their government to provide security.  Might be hard for UKR to mount such an operation given the large amount of resources it would require.   It could be interesting given the way the Romanian election is going.  The Russian troops in Moldova would cave easily.  There's not enough of them to make a difference/mount any resistance.   Maybe it's a matter of ongoing containment.

Let's forget about Iraq because it's ancient history right now.
- @fluffy2560

Then the undemocratic votes to join of NATO is history as well. Hang on, you brought them up.

Ah, it's only history when it doesn't suit your point.

There's more nightmare discussion mileage about Gaza if you want to throw in a distraction. That really is a can of worms for typical wrong footed US support.  - @fluffy2560

But you have just thrown it it, not me.

There's no way elections can be held in Ukraine now, not with intimidation through Russian occupation going on currently. It's also martial law in UKR so it's just not going to happen in the immediate future. Russia doesn't even obey its own ceasefires. It's utterly untrustworthy. - @fluffy2560

Or the illegal, US backed, undemocratic government of Ukraine's occupation of that country.

I know, let China do the deal - Look at what they managed between Iran and Saudi.

The Maidan revolution was over closeness to the EU, not the United States. - @fluffy2560

I see you don't read much.

It was the CIA using the IRI, USAID, and NED that killed domocracy in Ukraine.

You might remember this history

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

There's more nightmare discussion mileage about Gaza if you want to throw in a distraction. That really is a can of worms for typical wrong footed US support.  - @fluffy2560
But you have just thrown it it, not me.
- @Fred

I was just responding to your straw man of Iraq.  It's what you often do.   Dodgy dossiers is irrelevant to today's events.  I do agree it was very dodgy but it doesn't add to UKR. It's just histrionics. 

There's more nightmare discussion mileage about Gaza if you want to throw in a distraction. That really is a can of worms for typical wrong footed US support. - @fluffy2560
But you have just thrown it it, not me.
- @Fred
I was just responding to your straw man of Iraq. It's what you often do. Dodgy dossiers is irrelevant to today's events. I do agree it was very dodgy but it doesn't add to UKR. It's just histrionics. - @fluffy2560

You claimed countries joining NATO without a public vote was fine. That in mind, i assume you support the invasion of Iraq.

The Maidan revolution was over closeness to the EU, not the United States. - @fluffy2560
I see you don't read much.
It was the CIA using the IRI, USAID, and NED that killed democracy in Ukraine. - @Fred

It's not also called Euromaidan for nothing. Euromaidan was quite a few years ago. Yanukovych's decision not to sign the UKR-EU association agreement led to the unrest.  What the rest of that alphabet soup was doing is largely irrelevant to current situation re: Russia and  the war of 2022.    I don't disagree it started a lot of issues rumbling, but a lot of water has gone under the bridge since 2013 and different thinking is now required

There's more nightmare discussion mileage about Gaza if you want to throw in a distraction. That really is a can of worms for typical wrong footed US support. - @fluffy2560
But you have just thrown it it, not me.
- @Fred
I was just responding to your straw man of Iraq. It's what you often do. Dodgy dossiers is irrelevant to today's events. I do agree it was very dodgy but it doesn't add to UKR. It's just histrionics. - @fluffy2560

It also shows official lies exist, as we see in Ukraine at the moment.

I was just responding to your straw man of Iraq. It's what you often do. Dodgy dossiers is irrelevant to today's events. I do agree it was very dodgy but it doesn't add to UKR. It's just histrionics.  - @fluffy2560
You claimed countries joining NATO without a public vote was fine. That in mind, i assume you support the invasion of Iraq. - @Fred

Iraq is irrelevant to UKR.

Gaza is irrelevant. 

All bad things but they are not about UKR.

I was just responding to your straw man of Iraq. It's what you often do. Dodgy dossiers is irrelevant to today's events. I do agree it was very dodgy but it doesn't add to UKR. It's just histrionics. - @fluffy2560
You claimed countries joining NATO without a public vote was fine. That in mind, i assume you support the invasion of Iraq. - @Fred
Iraq is irrelevant to UKR.
Gaza is irrelevant.

All bad things but they are not about UKR. - @fluffy2560

I don't know why you brought Gaza up.

Iraq is relevant as it show official lies will take countries to war.

Ukraine is a prime example of official lies starting wars.

There's more nightmare discussion mileage about Gaza if you want to throw in a distraction. That really is a can of worms for typical wrong footed US support. - @fluffy2560
But you have just thrown it it, not me.
- @Fred
I was just responding to your straw man of Iraq. It's what you often do. Dodgy dossiers is irrelevant to today's events. I do agree it was very dodgy but it doesn't add to UKR. It's just histrionics.  - @fluffy2560
It also shows official lies exist, as we see in Ukraine at the moment.
- @Fred

Come on Fred, put your money where your mouth is.

Take out that UKR cannot hold elections.

Take out Iraq, take out Gaza and all those diversions.

What's the solution to UKR-Russia? 

I don't know why you brought Gaza up.Iraq is relevant as it show official lies will take countries to war.Ukraine is a prime example of official lies starting wars. - @Fred

Gaza* - it's an example of the straw man argument, i.e. start arguing about something irrelevant to the question in hand.   It's your fall back position which is blindingly unpersuasive.  It's the same as Iraq.  Who cares about that now in today's world?  It's just history and it's got nothing to do with UKR.

I hear a lot of complaining but no solutions.   Let's have your model peace plan.

*We can have another discussion about Gaza but there's no linkage to UKR apart from USA as a common party.

The Maidan revolution was over closeness to the EU, not the United States. - @fluffy2560
I see you don't read much.
It was the CIA using the IRI, USAID, and NED that killed democracy in Ukraine. - @Fred
It's not also called Euromaidan for nothing. Euromaidan was quite a few years ago. Yanukovych's decision not to sign the UKR-EU association agreement led to the unrest. - @fluffy2560

No - The CIA created the unrest, just as they are doing all over the world at  the moment.

Our president has an 80% popularity  rating (for very good reason), but the Yanks are funding violent anti-democracy groups that claim popular support. The only popular support is CIA cash spent to try to get rid of an excellent government that is guilty of the crime of doing business with China.

The fact it's extremely popular and brings massive benefits to Indonesia doesn't matter - the 'popular' thugs are being paid to get rid of democracy.

No - The CIA created the unrest, just as they are doing all over the world at the moment.Our president has an 80% popularity rating (for very good reason), but the Yanks are funding violent anti-democracy groups that claim popular support. The only popular support is CIA cash spent to try to get rid of an excellent government that is guilty of the crime of doing business with China.The fact it's extremely popular and brings massive benefits to Indonesia doesn't matter - the 'popular' thugs are being paid to get rid of democracy. - @Fred

Indonesia is not relevant to UKR discussions.  That's an entirely different topic.

I don't know why YOU brought Gaza up.Iraq is relevant as it show official lies will take countries to war.
Ukraine is a prime example of official lies starting wars. - @Fred
Gaza - it's an example of the straw man argument,  - @fluffy2560

YOUR straw man argument - You brought it up, and you keep talking about it.

I know you're trying to deflect as you have no evidence to add to your hate filled arguments about banning Russian civilians from extremely useful cutting edge science that could change the world, so you have to try to make it look as if I moved away from your xenophobic comments.

18th May the UK - EU are having their summit.

Hahaha so much for Brexit. Aye? 🤣

YOUR straw man argument - You brought it up, and you keep talking about it.I know you're trying to deflect as you have no evidence to add to your hate filled arguments about banning Russian civilians from extremely useful cutting edge science that could change the world, so you have to try to make it look as if I moved away from your xenophobic comments. - @Fred

Yeah, like I said, it's an example of your argument about Iraq. 

It's not xenophobia to remove the Russians.  They aren't our friends.  They chose their path.   We didn't have the Germans working on projects in the UK during WW2 phoney or otherwise.   Or the Japanese for that matter in the USA.  It's just common sense.

Anyway, like I said, nearly all the ITER participant countries have their own projects on the same subject.  I've been following this for some years as it's of academic interest.  There are private fusion projects going on in both the UK and USA plus of course government initiatives all over the place.  The USA has come the closest so far to making it work.    Elon Musk is possibly involved in one project. He'd be better of working on that than crazy DOGE crap and trying to send people on one way kidney failing trips to Mars.  Fusion will help humanity far more.

18th May the UK - EU are having their summit.
Hahaha so much for Brexit. Aye? 🤣 - @SimCityAT

🤣

I expect well get closer to the EU again.  Maybe it'll EU-lite on defence cooperation. I was disturbed to hear the French are trying to bring fishing rights into it again.  That's bonkers.  We've all got far bigger fish to fry.

I also am not enamoured by the youth visa scheme.  Up to age 30?  No bloody use whatsoever to me.  My HU kids are all EU nationals so have freedom of movement.  The non-EU ones are too old (>30). Hence one of them going to Canada as she was under their upper age limit for their visas (something like 36'ish).  A practical solution. I really hope they stay there, out of harm's way.

18th May the UK - EU are having their summit.
Hahaha so much for Brexit. Aye? 🤣  - @SimCityAT
🤣
I expect well get closer to the EU again. Maybe it'll EU-lite on defence cooperation. I was disturbed to hear the French are trying to bring fishing rights into it again. That's bonkers. We've all got far bigger fish to fry.

I also am not enamoured by the youth visa scheme. Up to age 30? No bloody use whatsoever to me. My HU kids are all EU nationals so have freedom of movement. The non-EU ones are too old (>30). Hence one of them going to Canada as she was under their upper age limit for their visas (something like 36'ish). A practical solution. I really hope they stay there, out of harm's way. - @fluffy2560

It would be a step in the right direction though, baby steps.