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How a Foreigner can Own/ Buy Property in Indonesia [Per 14 April 2016]

Fred
#41

citizenship is the ultimate path.


If you read the requirements I suggested, they are the same as those wishing to apply for citizenship.
I would see the ownership rules being pretty much as KITAP rules, if divorce happens after ten years of marriage, I see it as fair the foreign owner should have some rights.
Ten years of marriage means a lot of proven commitment, so I would have no objections.

I do object to anyone and everyone being allowed to own land.

Foreigners who have made full commitment are fully entitled, and quite right too.

H
#42

Ubudian wrote:

OK, so let’s talk about that for a minute.

If foreign ownership of land was allowed on the basis you suggest, would that ownership by the foreign spouse be allowed to continue should that Indonesian/other marriage dissolve via divorce?  I sure hope not, and surely you can see where I’m headed with this.   

If the Hak Milik (land deed) was in the name of the foreign spouse…who makes sure that the Hak Milik is changed back to the Indonesian spouse (as in the case of divorce as described above)?  Can you envision some sort of coordination between the various land offices throughout all the regencies within all the provinces of Indonesia with the Civil Office?  I can’t. 

As you surely know, under current law/regulations, the only way a foreigner can have his/her name on the Hak Milik is if that foreigner obtains Indonesian citizenship.  For a foreigner who is deadly serious about their commitment, both in their marriage, to their family, and their love of Indonesia, to me, citizenship is the ultimate path.


I don't see why the hak milik needs to go back to Indonesian spouse in the case of divorce. The way I would like it to be is the same as other countries. That is, if the foreigner bought the property with his own money and the hak milik is in his own name, then even if he divorces he should be able to keep or dispose of the property as he sees fit. Reverting the hak milik to the Indonesian wife's name automatically should they divorce is just another adding more reasons to prevent foreigners from buying property here.

Fred
#43

Hansson wrote:

Fred, out of interest, would you be eligible under those requirements?


'Yes' at the moment; hopefully 'no' soon, but my personal situation doesn't mean I can't give an objective opinion.

Ubudian
#44
And just as a quick follow up Fred, (as we are very much in the same boat), would it really make any sense that the foreign spouse in a marriage with an Indonesian have any possibility of passing on (via a Last Will and Testament) the property ownership of that land to anyone else aside from his or her prodigy which resulted from that marriage to an Indonesian?  I say, “heck no!”  Indonesia is for Indonesians and land ownership of Indonesian land is also for Indonesians…and ONLY Indonesians!

Opportunities for investors in Indonesia have plenty of options.  Those options do not need, nor ever should, include land ownership. 

Indonesia…tidak di jual!
Ubudian
#45
"I don't see why the hak milik needs to go back to Indonesian spouse in the case of divorce. The way I would like it to be is the same as other countries."

Well, I do, and so the vast majority of Indonesians who agree whole heatedly with me that Indonesian land is for Indonesians...period.

Moreover, like most all other Indonesians, we don't care what other countries do.  We only care about what we do...and that makes perfect sense to me!   :top:
H
#46
Well, I appreciate the views of both yourself and Fred and I understand your reasons for feeling that way.

But I do expect in time that Indonesia will eventually open up more and more and eventually allow foreigners to buy land.
Ubudian
#47
"But I do expect in time that Indonesia will eventually open up more and more and eventually allow foreigners to buy land."

That will NEVER happen.  You see, for Indonesians, land has far greater meaning than a line item in an investment portfolio.  It is sacred, it is tied to ancestors.

Moreover, there is very, very little support (either now or in the past) from anyone who is Indonesian along these lines. 

As I've said, present laws and regulations have worked just fine in the past, and there is clearly no incentive to change...now, or for the conceivable future. 

And, just for grins, I don't personally know any long time expat here on Bali, or elsewhere in Indonesia who has a viewpoint on this other that what I've expressed.   ;)
tel522
#48
perca are fighting for the rights of mixed married re property ownership , the bill is on the second reading , when there is news I will post.
Fred
#49

tel522 wrote:

perca are fighting for the rights of mixed married re property ownership , the bill is on the second reading , when there is news I will post.


Not withstanding my personal situation, this seems fair, but I would still prefer it be limited to those legally able to apply for Indonesian citizenship, thus removing any possibility of naughty marriages to gain rights.
In much of Indonesia, foreigners with more cash than brains being ripped off and spending daft sums on property won't make a deal of difference to local land prices, just a few foolish foreigners who failed to check prices will lose a sack of cash.
Bali, Lombok and other such places would likely see a surge of such fools, so forcing locals out of the property market.
That, before someone pulls me up, isn't all foreigners, but there are easily enough to ruin the market when you couple their stupidity with estate agents' greed.

I'd far sooner see no foreigners able to buy land than see that happen.

Ubudian
#50
Perca would be far better off working on dual citizenship rights beyond the temporary rights currently afforded to children of mixed marriages.   ;)
H
#51
I haven't got to the stage where I could even consider applying for Indonesian citizenship, but doesn't one have to relinquish one's current nationality in order to become Indonesian? Don't think I'd ever want to even consider doing that, and certainly not worth it just to own a property in here.
Ubudian
#52
“…but doesn't one have to relinquish one's current nationality in order to become Indonesian?”

Yes, that is true, (mostly), and that (IMHO) is which should be changed…not property ownership laws.
tel522
#53

Hansson wrote:

I haven't got to the stage where I could even consider applying for Indonesian citizenship, but doesn't one have to relinquish one's current nationality in order to become Indonesian? Don't think I'd ever want to even consider doing that, and certainly not worth it just to own a property in here.


I agree , who knows in the future if we should need an exit strategy , because of civil strife , volcanic or another natural disaster .

Ubudian
#54
"I agree , who knows in the future if we should need an exit strategy , because of civil strife , volcanic or another natural disaster."

Except for those of us married to Indonesians.  I for one could never consider "exiting" without my entire family...for any reason.
Fred
#55

tel522 wrote:

I agree , who knows in the future if we should need an exit strategy , because of civil strife , volcanic or another natural disaster .


I disagree.
I firmly believe you should not take anything without giving, or expect very much without committing.
Rights are all well and good, but you have to earn those rights in some way, at least in my opinion.
If a volcano is going to send you running, you've picked the wrong country to live in.

tel522
#56
the point about mixed marriage, as I am , is that the indonesian loses their right to buy property because of marriage  , which of course is against their human right, hence the work of perca .

everythings possible here, natural disasters and civil issues , let  us not forget the recent past , pogroms against the chinese , osing ,etc .
  it would be be unwise not to have a bolthole for my family  , even if its outside indo . hence the importance of the passport . the best kind of insurance .
Ubudian
#57
“the point about mixed marriage, as I am , is that the indonesian loses their right to buy property because of marriage, which of course is against their human right, hence the work of perca.”

Of course that’s not entirely true about an Indonesian married to a foreigner not being able to buy property, but I do understand the potential pitfalls if there is no prenuptial agreement in place.  And, to clean up that issue, it doesn’t require making any changes to Indonesian property laws…rather, only civil laws. 

Your comments regarding possible disasters made me chuckle as it reminded me of my father in law’s reaction after once watching an episode of “Doomsday Preppers” at our house a few years ago.  At the end he was shaking his head muttering, “orang gila.” 

Personally I cannot envision a passport having anything to do with any sort of emergency evacuation, for any reason.
tel522
#58
tell that to the chinese who were killed and raped, lost their property, the osing who fared the same , you obviously know about recent indo history I presume ?.  ya its a good reason to chuckle hmm
Ubudian
#59
And a passport would have prevented all of that? 

Come on, think about it. 

And btw, just so you know, the smart Chinese who wanted to "bug out" of Jakarta during the financial crisis didn't bug out of Indonesia...rather, they just came over to Bali until things calmed down.  And yes, I was here at that time.   ;)
tel522
#60
I know about the chinese escaping to bali , taman gria, not far from me, was built for that purpose , unfortunately it did not help the victims of the savagery .
so you know very well what happened in java at that time in 1998.

with my passport I can move quickly if I need to , with my wife .
H
#61
Personally I just would never give up my current passport. But I'd be interested to know if Fred is ready to give up his UK citizenship to become Indonesian and if Ubudian has already given up his American citizenship when he became Indonesian? I suppose the ultimate commitment would be to completely give up one's previous nationality when adopting the Indonesian nationality.

Yes Indonesia can be very dangerous at times, we just do not know what might happen down the road. Of course I will bring my family overseas if there is some big disaster. I also keep my options open of one day living in another country or even back home, which my family.
Fred
#62
I will give up my UK passport in that event.
If you're going to do something, you must do it right or not bother.
Ubudian
#63
“…so you know very well what happened in java at that time in 1998.”

Yup.  I’ve been living here 24/7 for going on 18 years, so that time was my “introduction to Indonesia.” 

“with my passport I can move quickly if I need to, with my wife.”

And so can we, if just holding Indonesian passports…or no passports at all (Indonesia being a big country).

Hansson, some countries simply don’t accept giving up of citizenship.  But on this open forum, that’s all I’m going to say. 

But, that aside, I agree entirely with Fred…” If you're going to do something, you must do it right or not bother.”
H
#64
Hmmm....well that's quite something to give up. But I assume your kids already have British citizenship and UK passports? If regulations about dual nationality do not change I assume that when your kids grow up that they will need to choose Indonesian or British nationality. Totally giving up ones nationality and then having ones kids do the same in order to become Indonesian is a really big deal.
Ubudian
#65
By the time Fred’s kids and mine are at the age to make “the decision”, that will no longer be necessary.  Dual citizenship will be recognized here in Indonesia well before that time arrives.  Jokowi promised this himself late last year.  It's only a matter of a little time.
H
#66
Hope so..for my kids too.
Fred
#67
Speaking personally, I have no intention of holding two passports.
In taking up Indonesian citizenship you make a promise, and I don't made promises lightly.
H
#68
Well...who knows what changes might happen in the future. There may come a day when Indonesia allows us to keep our foreign citizenship and also become Indonesian. If that ever happens way down the road, it would be a shame to have given up the other one so early on.
Ubudian
#69
There are some 8 million Indonesians living outside Indonesia that had to give up their Indonesian citizenship in order to become citizens of their new host country.

Jokowi is more than well aware of what a potential “gold mine” those folks are both in terms of desired skills for employment, as well as investment.

Dual citizenship for them is coming very shortly…almost certainly within this year.  From there it is only a logical progression to expand dual citizenship further.
H
#70
I think it just comes down personal choice and to how far one is willing to make the sacrifice, and obviously some here do not see it as a sacrifice at all. There is no right way or wrong way. There is no more honor in going it the whole hog and giving up one's current citizenship for an Indonesian passport, it's just a matter of keeping one's options open for any eventuality in the future. At least that's the way I see it. A US or Canadian or European passport is also very valuable in today's world. US perhaps not as Americans are obligated to declare tax in the US when living overseas, hence the higher number of Americans prepared to give up their nationality.

But anyway, it's all a matter of personal choice, no right way and no wrong way to do things.
Ubudian
#71
I agree with that, and I also agree that the sale of land (freehold) continues to be restricted to those with Indonesian citizenship.   :top:

Note...land only.  An apartment in Jakarta...no big deal. 

Cheers!
H
#72
Once i talked to an Indo politician about this issue, he said indo has extremly big fear of chinesse. If they remove the ban for foreigners, Chinesse will invest heavy money here, Government will lose their economy control on their own country. Espicially with the bamboo networrk is expanding all over SE Asia. And probably indonesia will become part of The Greater China afterthen. I really didnt agree with him, but i understand their fear of China due to the historical relations.
H
#73
That's probably just paranoia. It hasn't happened with other southeast asian countries so unlikely to happen here either. Funny thing is, Indonesians are allowed to buy properties allover the world and they do.
tel522
#74
@ hanson

Funny thing is, Indonesians are allowed to buy properties allover the world and they do.

Ironic ya
H
#75
Absolutely.....!
Ubudian
#76
The Chinese have been integrated by way of immigration into Indonesian society from the T’ang Dynasty to the present…meaning from as far back as the 10th century. 

Chinese Indonesians are extremely significant land owners and are among some of the wealthiest of Indonesians.  Fear of them “buying up” Indonesia is just another “urban legend” and it surely is not the reason why Indonesians are against their land being sold to foreigners. 

The primary reason why Indonesians do not want their land sold to foreigners can be found in the basic and most primary religious beliefs found in all the cultures of Indonesia, that being animism.  Neither Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam or Christianity has succeeded in removing the basic animistic beliefs entrenched throughout all of Indonesia.   

With animism comes the belief that land is the gift of the gods, and it is where the ancestors reside.  Land has a sacred value here. 

There are plenty of books available on this topic, and by reading some of them one can avoid the embarrassment of passing around silly notions.   ;)

Indonesia…tidak di jual!

"Funny thing is, Indonesians are allowed to buy properties allover the world and they do."

Any why not?  If other places in the world disregard their land and the preservation of their own cultures, that's their business...not our business.
H
#77
"Any why not?  If other places in the world disregard their land and the preservation of their own cultures, that's their business...not our business."

As I mentioned earlier, Indonesian is already opening up to foreigners buying apartments and rules governing contracting land are changing more and more in favour of foreigners. I believe it is just a matter of time before foreigners will be able to purchase land in Indonesia. The worst affected areas will probably be Jakarta and it's surrounding towns, and also Bali and to a lesser extent Lombok. Hopefully Bali will be able to preserve much of it's culture as none of us want to see a changed Bali with small aboriginal or cultural villages scattered around.

Changes in rules and regulations are not generally the result of the population, but by politicians who have various reasons for doing what they do.

I believe the next step will be special zones or areas where foreigners could be allowed to buy landed property. For example in BSD. This land was previously plantation land with very little history or culture to talk about. In Bali I can see developing places such as Canggu as becoming a zone where foreigners might be able to buy land one day in the future.

Basically, it is very difficult to stop progress and the greed of man. Even the great Amazon jungle is shrinking while politicians get rich. Money talks and men are greedy.

"Chinese Indonesians are extremely significant land owners and are among some of the wealthiest of Indonesians.  Fear of them “buying up” Indonesia is just another “urban legend” and it surely is not the reason why Indonesians are against their land being sold to foreigners."

As to the above comment, I believe that Salem_SBY was talking not about local Indonesian chinese, but about the the chinese from Mainland China.

It is all a very interesting discussion. But I believe that Indonesia will eventually open it's doors to allowing foreigners to buy land. Hopefully there will be some restrictions.
tel522
#78
bali has already been destroyed in the south , without foreigners buying land .
Ubudian
#79
“Changes in rules and regulations are not generally the result of the population, but by politicians who have various reasons for doing what they do.”

If you hang around Indonesia long enough you get used to the manner in which new laws are first “floated” here as an idea, and the public reaction is then considered.  Many, many proposed laws never get passed only because of the strong negative reaction by the people.   

Changes in the laws here are done at the will of the people, and not a hand full of politicians.  This is Indonesia...not Canada, the UK or the US. 

“In Bali I can see developing places such as Canggu as becoming a zone where foreigners might be able to buy land one day in the future.”

Maybe you can see that, but you’d be very hard pressed to find any Balinese down there who would agree with you…and it’s their call in the end.

Bali…tidak di Jual. 

“As to the above comment, I believe that Salem_SBY was talking not about local Indonesian chinese, but about the the chinese from Mainland China.”

It seems to me that all the Chinese in Indonesia can trace their roots back to mainland China at one time another.  The point is, the fear of Chinese buying up all of Indonesia is not behind Indonesian persistence that land is not to be sold to foreigners.  Otherwise, in the years pre-Gus Dur, it would have been simple to restrict Chinese, but allow other foreigners to buy land. 

"bali has already been destroyed in the south , without foreigners buying land ."

And you can be VERY certain that the Balinese in the rest of Bali are well aware of that...thus more and more restrictions regarding land use, buildings and etc. for foreigners.
H
#80
"bali has already been destroyed in the south , without foreigners buying land"

And the situation is not going to get better. It will only get worse and worse in time and spread over more and more of Bali. Even the Bukit south of Jimbaran where the Suharto family own much land....well, I don't think they bought up all that land with the intention of preserving the "Balinese way of life".

I also believe that Ubud is well on it's way to changing too. Eventually it is may be only the more remote towns like Klungkung, Singaraja and Negara that retain the remnants of the "Balinese way of life" save for the occasional ceremony.

By it's very beauty thousands upon thousands of foreigners are settling down there and calling it home. With luxury villas all over the place it is hardly the unspoilt Bali that we all used to love. It is becoming a resort island where wealthy foreigners can set up their businesses and foreigners create their own western communities. Ubud itself is becoming the Beverley Hills of Bali.

I don't think that is necessarily bad. But yes I think Bali has been spoilt by too many foreigners settling down there. Great for the foreigners but bad for Bali.

So yes I very much agree that southern Bali has already been destroyed without foreigners buying land. And it is only going to get worse.....!

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