Lack of direct flights to Europe and rest of the world

I am from Winnipeg myself and am well aware at the awful work that the Airport Authority is doing in trying to entice international carriers to the city. They refuse to do their research.

I work in Aviation and have done so for many years. If I were to only access our database I can see the potential for a B767 size aircraft to fly 5 times a week out of Winnipeg. The problem is that they would have to find a destination that works for everyone because the market is very non-specific. I figured Amsterdam would offer the best connections.

Flying charters on a once a week basis to a single destination without offering good connections is business suicide in a market such as Winnipeg. The majority of travelers are either business people who only need to go for a few days or people visiting family. None of these people are going to go out of their way to arrange their schedules around an airline only to have to spend an extra day with kids or baggage before they can take another discount carrier the next day so that they can save 100bucks a ticket once you factor the hotel. Believe me... it's not worth it unless you are traveling on your own agenda free. This is why the previous attempts into Winnipeg have failed... they fail to attract anybody with a tight schedule or with actual business which is 70percent of the Winnipeg market. This is despite the fact that our databases show about 210pax travelling to Europe out of Winnipeg every day. That is a really high number considering the only way cities like Calgary keep their flights is through transfer traffic.

I blame poor Winnipeg mentality... the idea that they are too small for the service. Winnipegers don't understand that their province actual plays a global role and it's not just Winnipeg using the airport but the rest of the province, Saskatchewan and North Western Ontario that uses it as well. The Idea that the UK is the penultimate destination for Winnipeg is ludicrous as well. While there are many people going to the UK from this province, many more people are going somewhere else. Unless they get the most prime time slot avaiable, people can't transfer properly and quite frankly... London airports are a nightmare for families.

A service running Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Sunday would be ideal for all parties. It would have to arrive early morning for the connectors. This way people won't be looking for other places to go first. If they do it with a major airline and market reduced costs of operating out of Winnipeg it should be a fairly easy sell to a company like KLM. They would offer everything that the province needs and would have no competition.

The WAA really needs to do it's research... it's not hard.... if I can figure it out so can they.

I hope this helps

In Canada there are 4 airline hubs, Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto and Montreal. That's the way it works and by and large that's exactly the way the airlines want it. I see no problem with that whatsoever. No country in the world has international flights to all destinations from all airports, that's just ridiculous to expect. If you lived in a hub city and moved away why didn't you do your homework and check that out beforehand? If you're unhappy with the way things are why don't you move to a hub city?

Air Canada has the following European routes:

Vancouver to:
London, Frankfurt, Munich

Calgary to:
London, Frankfurt

Toronto to:
Copenhagen, Dublin, Frankfurt, London, Paris, Rome, Madrid, Athens, Tel-Aviv, Istanbul

Montreal to:
Brussels, London, Frankfurt, Paris, Munich, Geneva, Rome, Athens

The foreign air carriers also operate flights out of those airports so there is really a wide selection for passengers.

You make it sound like you can't get to your destination at all, which is clearly not true. If you expect EVERY Canadian airport to have direct Trans-Atlantic flights it just isn't gonna happen, not now not ever. If Therocket is right and 200 people fly out of Winnipeg for EU destinations each day, given that there are 27 EU nations that means 7.5 passengers for each country. That's a drop of water in the ocean. Even if an airline was able to fill most of the seats on an aircraft leaving Winnipeg a couple of times a week for some European destination there is absolutely no guarantee that they could fill those same seats on a return flight to Winnipeg. They would thus be obligated to fly to Winnipeg virtually empty which makes absolutely no sense financially. When it's less than a three hour flight from Winnipeg to Toronto I don't see what your problem is. Unlike a taxi, airlines do not offer door-to-door service, seems to me that's the only thing that will make you happy.

I'm reminded of the old proverb:

I complained that I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet.

Try coming to Brazil where you can't even get a direct national flight to the vast majority of locations. Here a flight that should take an hour and a half if direct takes 8 because you're hopping all over the map making stops and plane changes. You don't know how lucky you really are.

Cheers,
William James Woodward - Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team

The situation is this, Winnipeg is the literal centre of the continent, in the beginning of the last century, this was a massive hub...Chicago of the North, remember everyone??? What happened?
I do a lot of business travel, however, I'd like to go to my desired destinations from here. If WAA researched, they would see that a lot of people would jump at the chance to go from Winnipeg to London or Amsterdam! This is a multi-cultural city and many people a very p***ed off that we need to go to Toronto or Chicago or Minn or worst still, Calgary/Edmonton to get to Europe or Asia (We were supposed to be CENTREPORT, REMEMBER)! Why did the dream die???
We are closer to London/Amsterdam than either Calgary or Edmonton(even going over the North Pole) and the Antonov AN-125 is a common sight on the tarmac, so we know that pilots can fly here.
So why the h3ll do we need to pay such ridiculous prices and frustrating connections to get where we need to go?
The new terminal was a breath of fresh air for this city...however....same old same old. It seems like we have a beautiful new terminal to get us to Thompson and Gillam more easy (no offense to both towns, been to both and are very friendly).

So WAA....start listening to your client base, get some flights into this town that will put us on the map finally!!!

My 2 cent, from a very disappointed customer of James Richardson International (HA!) Airport

Hi NinoC,

Geographical center of Canada or not, an airport and airlines are still businesses that must make a profit to exist since they are NOT fully funded government services. That's why the dream died.

The cold hard truth is that it would make about as much sense to have an international hub in Winnipeg as it would to have one in Hamilton, since they both have exactly the same population and thus the two bounce back and forth between 8th and 9th spot in Canada's list of 10 largest cities.

The decision to operate with 4 hubs was made decades ago, nothing new here logic dictates they should be geographically strategic but also the most populated so Vancouver(3), Calgary (5), Toronto(1) and Montreal(2) all of which have populations of 1.5 million or more. Ottawa, Canada's capital and 4th largest city wasn't even chosen as a hub because it was located between both Toronto and Montreal and another hub was needed outside eastern Canada. I'm sure that residents of Ottawa and the surrounding area have no great problems.

No matter how you may want it, now matter how wonderful Winnipeg is, it does not make financial or even good business sense to put an airline hub in a city with a population of slightly over 700 thousand. Would you put one there if it was YOUR business? I know that if I wanted to make a profit on my investment I wouldn't.

Just look to the south and see how fortunate you really are right now. The FAA has just announced they will be closing the CONTROL TOWERS at 148 airports across the country (and more closures may come in the future). Now that's something that would be much more of a concern and bother me a lot more than the fact that I couldn't get a direct flight to Europe or other overseas destinations from my nearest airport.

Regarding airfares... well that's a whole other story! I don't know why they should be so high other than the fact there is precious little competition. You should see what they're like here in Brazil because we effectively only have two choices. It would make you cry. On some routes they've tripled in six months.

Sorry to say this, but sometimes we spoiled Canadians just want too damn much! What we don't realize is that we've already got it ALL. Coming to a country where NOTHING to do with the government or public services actually work was a real eye opener, you should try it sometime.

Cheers,
William James Woodward - Brazil Animator, Expat-blog Team.

I live in the north of England, my daughter and family have emigrated to near Virden Manitoba and Winnepeg is the nearest airport (still 3 hours from their farm), because of our age we are desperate to find a direct flight from anywhere in England.  We would certainly visit often, but alas I have spent hours on the internet looking to no avail.  Please help.

Well... it's been a while since I've been here but why not an update.

Alas... Winnipeg is receiving a direct flight to London via scheduled WestJet services. It's once a week but WestJet is not really charging extra on the other days when the direct flight rotates through the country. They will be seriously considering increasing service as new airplanes become available. 4 B767's are hard to juggle across the country.

I've been reading some of the commentary but I think people are unaware of the size of the country or Winnipeg's geographical isolation from other services.

Just to make it clear... for the one who commented that by our definition Hamilton should also have a flight.... shake your head. Hamilton is a short drive from Toronto. Ottawa is only a 1.5hr drive to Montreal. Edmonton is only a 3hr drive from Calgary

By comparison.... Winnipeg is a 14hr drive from Calgary, roughly a 15hr drive to Edmonton, 2 Day drive to Vancouver, a 2.5 day drive to both Toronto or Montreal (taking the US route to YUL). The closest full service airport is a full 8hr drive away, Minneapolis.

So our current choices are drive like mad through Canada, or go through U.S. border security if your eligible, or pay an average of $250+ / person more and take a minimum 3 connections and 22hrs to get anywhere overseas. That's $1000 more if you are a family of 4. On average.

The funny thing is, KLM has started a direct flight from Edmonton. This is because YEG airport authority subsidised the first year of flying. So now you have a flight from Calgary and Edmonton.... 3 hrs driving apart. Edmonton is not even a hub. Funny the airline decided to service that market after being offered money (Edmonton is roughly the same market as Winnipeg in terms of size and demographic distribution) but ignored Winnipeg. Edmonton actually has a smaller passenger catchment area than Winnipeg so it really doesn't make any sense. So again.... we get screwed and all probably because somebody in the WAA didn't actually do anything to entice them . After seeing that move, there really is no reason we don't have a direct flight.

While a hub should have a population base to support the flight, the percentage of people travelling from that city on a daily basis only needs to be, and is often, in the 40-45%. The rest are fed in from other parts of the country.

Population wise, the funny thing is YYC (Calgary) has only had a population of 1.3million for the past few years, they've been mostly below Winnipeg's population levels through the 80's and 90's and only reached 1million somewhere in the 2000's. Calgary was never designed to be a large hub. A regional hub yes but their good fortunes have made them and easy market and hence their size and importance. Unfortunately times have changed for them and flights are faltering. The scales have now tipped where 60% of ALL passenger traffic is pass through connecting traffic. That's a huge number considering that the 40-50% rule only applies to International flights. They are estimating anywhere from 2-4 million less passengers handled this year.

The reality is that with a country our size with a majority population in the South, Large hubs do not lend themselves to very good efficiency for both passengers or an airline business model. There are a lot of ticket subsidised feeder flights generated in the country. So much so that there are negative revenue 100% load factor flights on a daily basis because their primary purpose is to feed the customer to a hub. You will inevitably have holes within such a system and unfortunately Winnipeg is one of these. The city is quite literally 1400km away from any international service within the country itself and the closest it gets is 800km with the U.S. option. The best option for this country would be to simply have mini hubs throughout major geographic points. You can still keep Toronto fairly large because of its population and keep Vancouver as an Asian hub because of its demographic and geographic proximity. Other then that.... international service can be easily distributed through mini hubs across the country according to market demand.

It would make good financial sense as well, because Winnipeg is mandated to be ready to service any size of aircraft due to its geographical importance. It sits on one of the busiest overseas corridors and receives a lot of medical and mechanical diversions. Both major airlines and a U.S. carrier have a maintenance base with fully trained ground handlers. These days, it really doesn't make any sense to shunt a traveller 3000km in one way just to get them to catch a flight going the other way. There is no airline system in the world that does this and says that its cheaper. Landing fees, servicing fees are cheaper in Winnipeg and the Northern corridor allows for shorter flights thereby increasing savings. Winnipeg already has connections with most major centres (not including Halifax) so the same way the airlines will shunt a Winnipeg - Amsterdam bound passenger to Vancouver first... 2400km's in the wrong direction at significant cost to the airline itself... they could easily shunt a Vancouver - Amsterdam bound passenger 2400km's in the right direction to Winnipeg first before sending them on their way. That example would account for a very small percentage of another markets international travel as I'm sure that Winnipeg could easily get 65%+ people on the flight on a consistent basis. No extra training involved, minimal extra flights required if any, significant savings operating out of Winnipeg vs other major centres.

That's the business and financial truth. Now the WAA just needs to market that. Really... it would cost the airlines ZERO inconvenience for one perfectly timed direct flight.

I know we as Canadians whine a lot... but really... comparing Canada to Brazil is apples to oranges. I realize that your no small potato either but our economy relies heavily on the ability for people and goods to move places. Without that... our economy would collapse very fast.

I am based in Halifax, NS - the city of have nots. At one point of time Winnipeg was the same size in terms of population to Halifax. But that has changed - its growing and rightly so. It even has its own hockey club, the Winnipeg Jets. Ikea opened up in Winnipeg too not too far back. I think it would only make logical sense that either one of the airlines (westjet / aircan / porters) make it its hub. As for me, I am just sitting down here and have resigned to the fact that should I need to go anyone in Canada or the States or even the world, I'd have to get through Toronto first.