The class action Re; Energy & Water

This is going to be interesting

I agree with this class action. Tariffs based on residency might be acceptable if they ask the Maltese the same documents to prove where they reside. When you know that 5000 foreigners live in Malta and that more maltese live outside Malta than maltese in the country itself, it appears to me common-sense, to ask also any Maltese without the ''A'' on the card a kind of certificate of residency.
The same thing when you take the bus, drivers should ask a Maltese ID, every time, cause like me even if the driver knows his fellow, he might have gone to live in another country.

john2011 wrote:

I agree with this class action. Tariffs based on residency might be acceptable if they ask the Maltese the same documents to prove where they reside. When you know that 5000 foreigners live in Malta and that more maltese live outside Malta than maltese in the country itself, it appears to me common-sense, to ask also any Maltese without the ''A'' on the card a kind of certificate of residency.
The same thing when you take the bus, drivers should ask a Maltese ID, every time, cause like me even if the driver knows his fellow, he might have gone to live in another country.

Well as you need an ID card and the A defines alien and Maltese do not have that on their ID cards then they are presumed to be residents so do not need to prove it in the way others do.

redmik wrote:

john2011 wrote:

I agree with this class action. Tariffs based on residency might be acceptable if they ask the Maltese the same documents to prove where they reside. When you know that 5000 foreigners live in Malta and that more maltese live outside Malta than maltese in the country itself, it appears to me common-sense, to ask also any Maltese without the ''A'' on the card a kind of certificate of residency.
The same thing when you take the bus, drivers should ask a Maltese ID, every time, cause like me even if the driver knows his fellow, he might have gone to live in another country.

Well as you need an ID card and the A defines alien and Maltese do not have that on their ID cards then they are presumed to be residents so do not need to prove it in the way others do.

problem with that is many have left the island to live elsewhere and dont live here but still retain and use their maltese id card to have the best of both worlds....pity it only works one way here

Its illegal for Maltese not resident in Malta to keep/have a Maltese ID card.

georgeingozo wrote:

Its illegal for Maltese not resident in Malta to keep/have a Maltese ID card.

in an ideal world we would all obey the law.....Malta is no different to anywhere else in this respect....yes it is illegal  GnG but we all know they do do it anyway...along with a lot other stuff. You know that too.

agree

however, it gives the Maltese govt the perfect excuse why Maltese dont need to prove residency beyond having an ID card

whoa GnG stop agreeing with me - now am worried

Hi all,

what bugs me a bit is the first first line in the original first post : ' A group of EU citizens residing in Malta '    .... because if they were really residing in Malta there would not be any problem at all. They would have applied for and received their residence certificates and their cheaper rates.

So why all the fuss ?

Many other EU countries ask for a residency application and do not issue an 'ID' card for foreigners. Why should they? The UK does not even issue ID cards for UK citizens.

So what are the complaints really about ? Not wanting to be a legal resident or not wanting to pay taxes or not wanting to show health insurance.? I don't quite get the point ....

Cheers
Ricky

Hi Ricky - agree with you - now, if a foreigner has their residency certificate and still ARMS won't give them the cheaper rates, then absolutely I agree its unfair. Malta has a legal right under EU law to demand of foreigners living here that they apply for the residency paperwork, and part of that is showing you won't be a burden, namely sufficient income or capital, and health cover.

I think its wrong of you and your notion that these persons are not residing in Malta how the hell do you know one way or the other!!!!! Maybe just maybe they're are not going to cowtow to the maltese government and their minions like you and others....Ricky The whole point being the legality of the requirements imposed - are without doubt illegal.....hence the infringement notice sent to Malta......You seem to think that just because its the present interpretation of the MRA rules that its right and proper to have these conditions imposed and shouldnt be questioned and challenged....well maybe there are those who think its not correct or dare I say it legal.

Why do you need a resident certificate when you have an EU passport, had bills for your usage of water and electricity,   on your one and only home for years - they know you live there - as if you didnt who the hell is paying the bills? have a bank account with local daily weekly transactions, and in many cases pay taxes and SSC locally too, and am sure many other qualifying states.

The whole idea of the one nation and one union, the EU "idea", revolves around is the freedom of movement and equality within the bloc...that Malta signed up to....and who happily take the EU funds for all manner of projects that clearly wouldnt happen if they didnt get it...whose funds are paid for by EU bloc citizens taxes etc etc etc....but they dont want that, they just want the money, and sod the people who have contributed to it.

Malta for the maltese who do as they please...is quite apt....well maybe the time has come for them to wake up and open their eyes and pay the piper.....start being an EU member - the maltese who have left the island are more than happy to pay the same as locals so why shouldnt it be reciprocated...after all other areas of social financing are reciprocal!!!!!.I will tell you why easy money from johnny foreigner...and the EU.

Its a joke and a national disgrace.

There are two issues here, which need separating

1. Is Malta entitled to demand foreigners living here apply for a residency certificate - under EU law, yes
2. Is ARMS entitled to ask for that certificate ? - not so clear

there is also the issue about whether the dual pricing on electricity is legal - its legal as its based on residency not nationality (its legal unless the EU rules otherwise)

the EU have ruled on it GnG as you well know...their interpretation is ILLEGAL.

what have they ruled is illegal ?

do you have the wording of the ruling ? I saw it once on the action groups facebook page, but they banned me from it...

its freely available GnG on the EU pages

do you have a link ? I've searched without joy

If what they've said is illegal is that locals don't need to prove they are resident, then the government has an easy solution - make locals prove they are resident.

Either that, or ARMS gives lower rates to all foreigners with a Maltese ID card, but the government then fines any of those who dont have a residency card and/or tax number, which they are entitled to under EU law.

Law of unexpected consequences

It will soon be a moot point going forward, as ID cards are being dropped for foreigners anyway

It might be a 'British' thing to think that you can get away without reporting a move or change of address within the UK or let alone in the EU but it isn't and has nothing to do with EU law.

In Germany, for example, you have to report a move out of town or into town within 7 days, in fact, your new location will report back to the place you left to avoid double registering! ( No, I`m not German but British). So it has nothing to do with EU law and Germany does not issue ID cards to foreigners.

This whole case will backfire for all those who have not applied for a residency certificate as it is certainly in line and required under EU law. In Germany there is a major fine (as in Malta) if you do not respect the laws.

And for those who have residency it is no problem! So why the fuss ?

Cheers
Ricky

At the beginning everything was very inconvenient to me. But when I found out that it is like it is (the systems - not only the maltese - are based on paperwork), I take everything like a "challenge", like a "game" :

Applying for the ID card, registering at ETC, registering at social security, applying for a WiFi internet, applying for an ARMS customer account, registering for the residency certificate, applying for recognition of my qualifications, importing a scooter from Italy and registering it at TM, etc. etc.

Even as official "unemployed person" I got a credit card with quite a high limit and recently (4 months later) I received a 65% discount (!!!) for local car insurance

It's only that every time I have to fill out another form, provide the same data and the same documents, have to come personally to different locations, sometimes got different information on the same topic (even from the same person - "this was new to me ..." )

... but
1.) I have the time to do this
2.) most of this is free of charge
3.) I meet a lot of people and have quite interesting chats with some of them

Cheer up !

Markus

btw, in Austria the authorities are not much better ... but the people working in this system are not so friendly and helpful

Actually it's not that much different in the UK. A different department for differing issues.

georgeingozo wrote:

It will soon be a moot point going forward, as ID cards are being dropped for foreigners anyway

Will it really be a moot point????  - as the same conditions would seem to be being applied in terms of documentation when and if the new cards are "born"

It seems that according to the latest info that a goverment official has freedom to interpret and demand any documents as these are not stipulated......in support of the claim for the identity document.

Part D
MISCELLANEOUSApplication foridentity documents.16.(1)
An application for the issue of an identity document shall be made on such form as maybe provided by the authorised officer or as may be prescribed and shall contain such information and particulars and shall be accompanied by any documents as may be required by the authorised officer or as may be prescribed. Any requirement resulting from any form referred to in this article shall be deemed to be a requirement by the authorised officer made under this article.

Hmm this will b e interesting for sure

should have been clearer - what I meant was, some of those complaining about ARMS believe an ID card should be sufficient proof of residency for ARMS. Going forward that will be moot as they won't have an ID card.

Yes, the new cards will have the same (or very similar conditions) as the current residency certificates for EU citizens. I cant see them asking for less documentation, and legally they cant ask for much more. This should have happened when Malta joined the EU.

The problem as i see it GnG is that they are are not consistent in there application or interpretation of the "requirements".

and i still thinks its going to be problematical as its not clear in the info doc as to what will be asked for

toonarmy9752 wrote:

The problem as i see it GnG is that they are are not consistent in there application or interpretation of the "requirements".

oh I agree, its a mess.

From the official EU website - actually the documentation is specified

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/re … dex_en.htm

Registration

During the first 3 months of your stay in your new country, you cannot be required to register (to obtain a document confirming your right to stay) but can do so if you wish.

After 3 months in your new country, you may be required to register with the relevant authority (often the town hall or local police station).

To obtain your registration certificate, you will need:

Employees / Postings abroad
        Valid identity card or passport
        Certificate of employment or confirmation of recruitment from your employer
   
Self-employed
        Valid identity card or passport
        Proof of your status as self-employed
   
Pensioners
        Valid identity card or passport
        Proof of comprehensive health insurance
        Proof you can support yourself without needing income support.

You do not need to provide any other documents.

When you register, you will get a registration certificate. This certificate confirms your right to live in your new country; it states your name and address and the registration date.

Your registration certificate should be issued immediately and cost no more than the price nationals pay for identity cards.

It should be valid indefinitely (does not have to be renewed), though you may need to report any change of address to the local authorities.

But as far as i can see that is exactly the same as it is now with the exception of it not being an id card and separate res cert....and my understanding so far is that the differing requirements between maltese and non maltese is the subject and cause of the infringement notice.


     "According to the information available to the Commission, until recently, ARMS Ltd. requested   the   submission   of  a  slightly  different   "Change  in  number  of   persons declaration".   Please   find   attached   the   previous   "change   in   number   of   persons declaration".

As you probably know, according to Article 8 of Directive 2004/38/EC for periods of residence longer than three months, the host Member State may require Union citizens to register with the relevant authorities. The host Member State may request the submission of  certain  documents   (e.g.:  a  valid  identity  card  or  passport,  a  confirmation   of engagement, proof of holding sufficient resources, a comprehensive sickness insurance cover, etc}

The Republic of Malta transposed this provision in Article 7 of the Free Movement of
European Union Nationals and their Family Members Order 2007 (LN.191  of 2007).

According  to the  information  available  to the Commission,  ARMS  Ltd. requests  non Maltese EU citizens to submit the above mentioned registration certificate together with a valid  ID  card  or  passport  in  order  to  accept  the  "change  in  number  of  persons declaration". Apparently, Maltese citizens only need to submit their Maltese identity card in order to submit the "change in number of persons declaration".

Above practice is the subject of an infringement procedure launched by the Commission on 27 September 2012. We are currently awaiting the reply of the Maltese authorities to the Letter of Formal Notice."

"But as far as i can see that is exactly the same as it is now with the exception of it not being an id card and separate res cert.."
correct

what i meant was the information doc doesnt stipulate it

"According  to the  information  available  to the Commission,  ARMS  Ltd. requests  non Maltese EU citizens to submit the above mentioned registration certificate together with a valid  ID  card  or  passport  in  order  to  accept  the  "change  in  number  of  persons declaration". Apparently, Maltese citizens only need to submit their Maltese identity card in order to submit the "change in number of persons declaration"."

so if foreigners no longer have Maltese ID cards, they can no longer present them. So they will need to present the new type of residency certificate - thats what I mean about it being moot in the future

toonarmy9752 wrote:

what i meant was the information doc doesnt stipulate it

the docs required to register ? it will be the same as before - it cant be more, and I doubt it will be less