Do expats still want to stay in Kuala Lumpur and Penang?

Where are you moving to? I just sent the package in for the MM2H now you have me changing my mind. Maybe I don't want to relocate to Malaysia. Thailand does huge burns too just not plastic.
They burn grass or trees. Which cause a constant haze all summer. They call it burning season up near Chiang Mai.

They also have illegal burnoffs in Indonesia as well? That covers most of SE Asian  Countries

1openmind wrote:

Where are you moving to? I just sent the package in for the MM2H now you have me changing my mind.

This depends on your preferences. If in Malaysia, maybe Sabah is an option. They have a requirement for you to live for some years there. There are many construction projects going on in Sabah currently, but its infrastructure is not well developed to handle this development. But there is no plastic burning there. There is also a big problem with  settlements of illegal immigrants there. No place is perfect. Also, their immigration office issuing MM2H is currently overwhelmed due to suspension of approvals in KL.

Sarawak might be an option too, but I don't know their MM2H program well. I've read that it issues mm2h visas for only  5 years and you would need to go through the whole process again every 5 years.

If non-English country is an option for you, then Panama might be an option. You just need to live there for some time until you get a permanent visa, not a 10 years visa like it is in Western Malaysia. Climate and cost of living in Panama is almost the same as in Malaysia.

Does anyone else know any other attractive options?

1openmind wrote:

Thailand does huge burns too just not plastic.

Accordingly to my research,  plastic processing moved from China to Malaysia, Thailand, Vietnam and Indonesia.

There is no place in the world not suffering from smog in one way or the other.  I hate visiting south China, for example, its so bad it burns your eyes and throat.

I stay in Penang and except for the Indonesian burnings I dont notice much of anything in the air which to me smells fresh. Maybe its because the ocean is near and blows everything away.

China is taking over USA as the No.1 polluter but none of the Asia countries have controls in place to curb it and may never.

Kuala Lumpur suffers from the "Bangkok Syndrome" in which tall buildings placed close together create a greenhouse effect and disallow the movement of air. The govt doesnt care and allows any sort of development. Fixing that isnt on the govts horizon. In Penang island, toxic effluent from factories is dumped right outside the factories and the govt denies this even though I have seen it with my own eyes and its been widely cataloged. When I complained to the Penang govt about it, they got extremely angry and demanded to know who I worked for and why was I trying to cause trouble.

NO PLACE is safe anymore, the fish are toxic, the air and water are toxic. Nothing can be done. What, wear a gas mask all the time and live in a "clean room" and never go outside again? All we can do is our own parts and add to the mess as little as possible. Cars in Asia dont even have smog controls and to fix all the factories and cars would require huge political will and cost untold billions which they will not spend. Meantime, earth is also changing on its own and we cant stop that either.

I leave as little a footprint as I can and hope others will too. Would I leave Malaysia for these problems? No I would not, there are too many other good reasons.

cvco wrote:

There is no place in the world not suffering from smog in one way or the other.
NO PLACE is safe anymore, the fish are toxic, the air and water are toxic. Nothing can be done.

I can't agree with the above statements.
California, for example, has strict regulations on pollution. All vehicles must have smog check. The air there smells with flowers along the roads, not smog. If a country is big, there are cities with more or less pollution depending on the industries and the density.

However, the most important factor is the government's policies on pollution.  Some countries place a higher priority on their people's health maybe simply because it is costing more to take care illnesses related to pollution than policing regulations on pollution. These regulations are possible only in countries with low corruption. Therefore, facts don't support that "nothing can be done".

Interesting statistics on pollution can be found if you  type in your browser:
10 Countries Causing the Most Pollution
Countries with the Least Air Pollution
Countries with the Highest and Lowest Levels of Air Pollution
The Most and Least Polluted Cities in the World

For example, air pollution in Bahamas is at around 13 PM (particulate matter), while 73  in India.

cvco wrote:

In Penang island, toxic effluent from factories is dumped right outside the factories and the govt denies this even though I have seen it with my own eyes and its been widely cataloged. When I complained to the Penang govt about it, they got extremely angry and demanded to know who I worked for and why was I trying to cause trouble.

I found some blogs written by expats who lived in Penang and who left Penang because of pollution caused by burning trash everywhere. To support your statement, have you seen a recent article on this issue?-

DECEMBER 18, 2018 BY ADMIN Ban Waste Incineration

(you can type this in your browser)

Perhaps reaching journalists and pollution-related organizations will be a better approach than directly complaining to a govt official who can be corrupt or simply doesn't want to complicate his/her life with additional troubles. I found that Malaysian people are nice and, like always with any people, it is a better approach to talk carefully and friendly about any issues than criticizing. Trying hard not to hurt their feelings will help always.

Some people  don't even understand anything about health risk of inhaling burnt waste or plastics. Confronting people about this will not go far for you. Perhaps a better approach is to explain friendly that it breaks your heart to see your neighbor's children to play and live inhaling toxic fumes and that these fumes may cause cancer, respiratory  illnesses and may slow brain development.  You care about health of your neighbors- this is a better approach.

cvco wrote:

I stay in Penang and except for the Indonesian burnings I dont notice much of anything in the air which to me smells fresh. Maybe its because the ocean is near and blows everything away.

The wind blows in all directions and sometimes you get fumes from the ports in Penang where they burn plastic waste. You think that it is from the Indonesian burnings. This is what people in Kuala Lumpur thought last summer until they finally realized that it is burning of plastic waste which moved from China to Malaysia.

If you monitor wind direction, you may notice that air quality changes depending on the wind.
I like this site:

windfinder ....... com/report/morib_kuala_lumpur

(substitute  many dots with one dot in the above url)

Air quality in Kuala Lumpur and Penang comparison-

It was interesting to compare
"Air quality and pollen forecast for Kuala Lumpur"
on Meteoblue website with
"Air quality and pollen forecast for Penang".

This site  has the data on practically all cities in the world. Very interesting to compare.

Both KL and Penang look very unhealthy! Unless you don't care about your health, do not move here!

I've lived in both downtown KL and on Penang Island. The latter definitely has better air quality and in general higher quality of life. 

You need to differentiate between "Penang" and "Penang Island" Conditions are different on the island.

Like many of the big cities in  the world, they are often plagued with pollution. KL (i.e. Klang Valley) is no exception. The plastic import problem to Malaysia is something recent and the government are tackling it now. It's in the newspapers almost daily and steps are being taken to curb the development of  industries associated with plastic where burning off waste is done.

Choose Penang Island rather than KL.

The readings are very seasonal with just a few high exposure times a year. 

It's a bit like the weather forecasts, which constantly say Lightening and Storms most of the year. The truth of the matter is quite different.

Culturally, there can be a lot of paper burning associated with religions at certain festivals. But we are talking about a couple of days at a time.

Gravitas wrote:

You need to differentiate between "Penang" and "Penang Island" Conditions are different on the island.
The readings are very seasonal with just a few high exposure times a year. 
It's a bit like the weather forecasts, which constantly say Lightening and Storms most of the year. The truth of the matter is quite different.

Penang is located on Penang Island.  The island is small enough for the wind to blow the fumes from the south to the north of the island. There are a lot of industries, which pollute the air and the water on the island. There are more and more vehicles without filters there, plastic burning, illegal residential trash burning. All year around.

Malaysia is a beautiful country and it is too sad that they are racking their own habitat and their own health depends on it.

Well my MM2H application is in. Now it's a waiting game. Where do we move to is the next big decision. I have a 5 yr old.  That  means international school. Have to find one that's good that doesn't cost more than $6k a year.

I have trip planned to Asia in May, is it possible to get the medical and open a bank account before the mm2h visa is approved? As I don't think with the process taking  6-7 months approval we will be there at that time. Would require another trip back from the USA.
Location is going to be the biggest challenge, traffic, schools, Condo, amenities etc. Close to an airport. I was looking at Setia Ecohill area for the home and all the things included and good rent. It's located far away from most things. And the school was very reasonable, but the school reviews weren't very good.

Finding the right place to settle could be quite a challenge. It's hard when you know a city. It's even harder not knowing a city and being in a new country.

You need the mm2h approval to open a bank account. Medical is only valid for a couple of months and getting health insurance locally also requires the approval.

There was a newspaper article in another post on this forum earlier in the week that said approvals are still on hold and there are currently 3000 applications in the queue.

"Penang is located on Penang Island."

No. Penang is a State. There is no town called Penang.

The main city on Penang Island is George Town.

Gravitas wrote:

"Penang is located on Penang Island."

No. Penang is a State. There is no town called Penang.

And Penang State is located on Penang island. 
It goes to my point that the island is small enough for the polluted air to cover the whole island at the certain wind conditions.

1openmind wrote:

I have a 5 yr old.  That  means international school.

is it possible to get the medical and open a bank account before the mm2h visa is approved?

Location is going to be the biggest challenge, traffic, schools, Condo, amenities etc. Close to an airport. I was looking at Setia Ecohill area for the home

1) Schools-
Search this forum for international schools. There is some helpful information there.

2) Medical and a bank account- only after you get your MM2H.
You can use ATM for cash meanwhile.

3) Place to live in Western Malaysia-
Area close to an airport is close to the ports where there are new legal and illegal plastic recycling plants are. The pollution is at the highest level there. Therefore, if you must to live in Kuala Lumpur, perhaps it will be possible for you to consider Northern areas in KL. Check Valencia which is at the north, in a beautiful setting facing high hills and has very big lap pool and an international school. We visited a friend there and we were impressed.

Genting Highlands-
If you don't care to live in KL, check Genting Highlands, which is one hour north from the northern boundary of KL. It is located high on the hills, with gorgeous views and cooler weather. You can also find international schools there and good shopping.
To find properties to rent, check iproperty.  com.  my (remove spaces in this link) or mudah.
Air quality in Genting Highlands is a little better than in KL.
To rent in Malaysia is cheaper compare to the areas with low cost of living in the US, but buying is more expensive here.

Thanks for the information. I will check it out. I like the idea of KL so we can get international flights easier.

A lot depends whether you want to live in an expat favoured enclave. Or prefer to live in a predominantly Islamic-inspired environment. You may want to check out Seremban for affordable schooling and housing with easy airport access.

Penang is much more international than KL (Klang Valley). COL and school fees are lower too.

1openmind wrote:

I like the idea of KL so we can get international flights easier.

Since you are from the US, I compared the air quality  in KL with  the most polluted cities in the US.  KL is much more polluted especially with nitrogen dioxide.
" Most of the nitrogen dioxide in cities comes from motor vehicle exhaust. Nitrogen dioxide is an important air pollutant because it contributes to the formation of ozone, which can have significant impacts on human health.
    NO₂ inflames the lining of the lungs, and it can reduce immunity to lung infections
    NO₂ causes problems such as wheezing, coughing, colds, flu and bronchitis"
(Source: meteoblue . org)

For instance, California requires car owners to get annual smog tests on vehicles. This is why the level of NO₂ is very low there.

It is up to you to sort out the priorities: to be closer to the airport or your and your child's health. Many people have to live here because of their jobs, but if you are free to choose, why would you relocate to a very polluted city?

Using Grab App to take a taxi to the airport is about RM 80 for 50 min drive. But by a bus it is practically free.

Often people misunderstand the term 'KL'. Strictly speaking its just the small area mainly called the Golden Triangle.

Greater 'KL' includes all the suburbs stretching north and southwards which include foothills and there are some waterside areas in neighbouring States. These are of course not polluted in the same way as the Golden Triangle.

Areas merge into other States such as Negeri Sembilan, Selangor and the remote Federal Territory isolated zone of Putrajaya. Selangor State is the industrial heart of the Klang Valley

Basically it's possible to find very much 'cleaner' areas than in the metropolis and parts of Selangor. There are green lungs created from the numerous rainforest reserves and plantations. There are many conceptual housing areas that are very ecologically minded such as in Shah Alam.

Because its close to the equator there is the cycle of water evaporation taking place and this is often mistaken for pollution.

Gravitas wrote:

Often people misunderstand the term 'KL'.
Greater 'KL' includes all the suburbs stretching north and southwards which include foothills and there are some waterside areas in neighbouring States. These are of course not polluted in the same way as the Golden Triangle.

There are many conceptual housing areas that are very ecologically minded such as in Shah Alam.

Because its close to the equator there is the cycle of water evaporation taking place and this is often mistaken for pollution.

Respectfully to the points you made-
Let's distinguish three types of pollution:
- Nitrogen dioxide due to polluting  automotive vehicles.
- Burning plastic (legally or illegally).
- Industries, which are polluting

1) Boundaries of  "Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur" can be viewed in google maps. Most of burning of plastic is stretched along the cost in both directions from the Port Klang, Selangor, which is just 1 hour SW of the center of KL.
I live in the most northern part of Federal Territory of KL, 6 min from Batu Caves, on the 37th floor and I can see the whole KL, Damansara and Selangor, past Petronas Towers. If the wind is S, SW, W or SE, the whole area from left to right in my view is under the thick gray blanket. This thick blanket is created by pollutants I listed above. Water evaporation doesn't stink, but toxic gases do. I can smell it. As soon as the wind changes to the northern, these areas are shining.

My husband started coughing in about two months after we moved here. My throat is itching after being outside in this wind conditions. It could be because of the pollution or allergies. We can be sure only after we move to the other, cleaner, part in Malaysia.

2) Shah Alam, Selangor, is directly west of  Federal Territory of KL. There are a lot of industries in Selangor. I have no data on how much they are polluting. Selangor is closer to the coast and therefore Shah Alam is more polluted from burning plastic. Pollution from vehicles is comparable with what it is in the Federal Territory of KL. Therefore, pollution in Shah Alam is practically the same as in Federal Territory of KL.

3) Even if you go 1 hour north from the Federal Territory of KL, southern wind will still bring toxic gases to your door. You are correct that if you move somewhere further away from these highly polluting areas, the air is better. But even 1 hour driving away from the city is not enough. I live more than 1 hour north from the the KL International airport and I am telling you, it stinks here when the wind is from the port.

4) When there is no wind, the cloud of toxic gases and particles accumulates over the cities here and is being dispersed slowly around to wider territory. Where I live, there is a dense with trees park and if I go there in no wind  or southern wind condition I can notice the snitch in the air.  If the wind is northern, the air smells great.
Closing all the windows when the wind is blowing from the Port doesn't help, because it is slowly sipping in the rooms from the tiny cracks in the windows and doors.

So, if you have a choice to live somewhere else and you care about your health, it is wise to live  where this issue doesn't exist. 

Why do you actually live here if you are so disappointed with the conditions as you perceive them?

Good internatiol school under 6000USf? You are kidding right?  Budget schools start at 10,000. My current school charges 50,000 USD per year. That's day fee.

Is that for a 5 yr old? $50,000 us dollars well they must be giving out gold coins in change at the lunch counter when they serve Filet Mignon to the kindergartners.

The most ELITE Prep schools grade 9-12 in the USA don't charge that much where the multi-millionaires send their kids! Colleges don't charge $50k a year in Malaysia.

If you have clean air as a priority may l suggest Ipoh. Has so many green spaces, mountains, even in the greater town area, an airport although currently it only serves Singapore and Indonesia, but is planning on expanding. Has an electric train service to kl in a little over 2 hours depending upon which service you choose. Air seems to be fresh and the food is great, international schools are not cheap but certainly not as dear as has been described. People are friendly and the town is largely Chinese orientated. By car it is about 2 hours to Penang or Kuala Lumpur, being centrally situated close to the main north south freeway. I have been here for 2 years and find it very comfortable

Thanks checked 2 school there one was $7500 the other was $3000 USD. Fairview and Tenby.
I kind of like being near an airport so we can hop on flights to any where.

About the same but thats a typical upper range. ISKL charges 25,000 usd. Malaysia has cheap schools. Mine isnt in Korea as I left last year as salaries too low in Malaysia. Anything under 10,000 usd is not good

I find that hard to believe.

bahter wrote:

If you have clean air as a priority may l suggest Ipoh.

Ipoh, Perak, looks very interesting.
Thank you! I will research it.

Gravitas wrote:

Why do you actually live here if you are so disappointed with the conditions as you perceive them?

People live in places they don't like to live because they can't move anywhere else. People who can't move must either accept the conditions or work on improving the life in this place.

We are free to move; nothing is holding us in KL. We moved here at the time when pollution from burning of recycled plastic started building up. We are making plans to relocate and as soon as we finalize our plans, we will break our lease and move.

bahter wrote:

If you have clean air as a priority may l suggest Ipoh.

It is a very interesting place indeed! Since Kota Kinabalu has also very clean air, I will compare Ipoh with Kota Kinabalu here.

MODERN CITY-
There are a lot of new condominiums with the pools, very good shopping, very good grocery stores; nicely restored old part of the city. It has nice view on the mountains. Ipoh is  not too big and not too small; it has enough of development for comfortable living.
Kota Kinabalu has also a lot of nice completed condominiums and in-process developments, but not as much as in Ipoh. However the infrastructure in KK is not well developed yet to support new fast growing housing there. Also I found that grocery stores are much nicer in Ipoh than in KK.

RENT PRICES ARE VERY LOW-
The most shocking is how cheep is to rent there compare to KL, or KK, or Penang! It looks like they overbuilt there and it is why the prices are so low.
According to NUMBEO, rents are 124% higher in Kuala Lumpur than in Ipoh. Prices for restaurants and groceries are also lower in Ipoh.
Rent prices for the apartments which are waterfront or in the nicest areas in  KK are comparable with the similar quality in KL, by my research.

AIR QUALITY-
According to meteoblue site, it is indeed much better than in Penang or KL. However, Kota Kinabalu is still winning in air quality.    Probably the air quality in Ipoh is still affected by the plastic burning illegal operators which are spread along the coast, but since Ipoh is much further away, it helps.

HOW TO GET THERE-
There are flights from Ipoh to Singapore (~USD100) and Johor. I didn't find any other destinations.
Therefore if you need to fly internationally from Ipoh, you would need to fly through Singapore.
To compare with Kota Kinabalu, which has the second busiest airport in Malaysia, Kota Kinabalu is more convenient if you plan to travel a lot.
2 hours to Cameron Highlands, Pahang
Train or car: 3.5 h to KL, 2 hours to Penang

NOT BUSY WITH TOURISTS-
Kota Kinabalu is very busy with tourists and people in general. There are about 4 million tourist/year visiting KK.  Ipoh receives tourists too, but maybe not as many. So I guess Ipoh is more comfortable for living.

Luxury, 3 seat wide buses take 3 to 4 hours from Ipoh to kl TBS bus station and Klia2 direct, cost is from 18 ringgit, about usd 4.5. Trains start at 5am and depending on which service, silver, gold, or platinum takes from 2 hours plus up to just over 3 hours. Cost is from 18 ringgit, both bus and train travel can be reduced by various specials. Trains are very smooth quiet, clean and new, as are the tracks. The scenery in Ipoh in my opinion is far superior to kk, l have lived in both and transport wise there is no comparison. Mm2h holders should note that the threshold for buying a condo is 350k ringgit in ipoh as opposed to 1m in kk. Grab works well in both cities. There seems to be more rain in ipoh. The Chinese influence is greater in ipoh. Food is generally about the same price with the popular roti canai at 1 ringgit, as is delicious black coffee. There is more choice in supermarkets in Ipoh. In my opinion there are more interesting places to visit in and around ipoh. Cars made in Malaysia are cheap, my new 5 door hatch, basic manual was just 23k ringgit including insurance and taxes, drive away, and because of the location of ipoh there are so many places to visit, Penang Island being about 2 hours, and the Thailand border about 3plus, Cameron highlands, Lumut 'beach' also not far.
Hope this helps.

Kl places with fresh air would be wangsa maju near forested area, or melawati. If bored Bukit bintang is a place where people always hang out, full of night clubs.

Thanks a lot very good info. I've been looking at it. Anyone hear any news on MM2H? Approvals aren't being done now. Could be a long wait for approval.

Intanying91 wrote:

Kl places with fresh air would be wangsa maju near forested area, or melawati. If bored Bukit bintang is a place where people always hang out, full of night clubs.

What do you mean by "fresh air"?
As earlier posts noted, the air pollution from burning plastic moves with the S, SE, SW and W wind blowing towards the city. The air is polluted all over "Federal Territory of Kuala Lumpur". Only when the wind changes, the city has not-polluted air. But sometimes the wind blows from south or west for several days in a row. I monitor the wind in real time using windfinder site.

All places you mentioned are within the Federal Territory of KL. Trees don't help much in KL. There are not even enough trees and parks in KL to improve the air polluted by the vehicles. KL is dense with the roads and buildings.

Additionally to the discussed above pollution issues in KL, MOSQUITO FOGGING is still widely used here. It is already a known fact that this method DOES NOT WORK on mosquitoes. But it affects people's health, because the fogging mix is diesel with pesticides.

1openmind wrote:

Anyone hear any news on MM2H?

There is a different thread dedicated for this: ""MM2H: how long did it take for you?" "

I have had mm2h for a while now, nearly 5 years, but even though I used an agent it was a struggle. It was refused and the agent appealed, eventually approved

The alternative to not fogging is sky high dengue fever cases and deaths with the reintroduction of Malaria to follow. Returning to the 'whiteman's grave' scenario which Malaysia historically had.

Guessing you are also anti-vax