The other side of the Dominican postcard

Hey Julien,
What I've seen from expats that come to the DR and stay, there are 2 basic types. The ones that come and emerse themselves in the culture  and the ones who don't even bother to learn the language and only spend time with other expats. The former have a much better experience than the latter.
I love it here. I've been here since 2001. It took me a long time to speak the language due to my CRS. But, in my opinion, very important if you want to live here.  I still, for the most part, go up to the states for medical stuff. Other than that, I'm all in, here.

Great topic Julien - as I understand it, you want to know the good and the bad.   Wow.... so much I can say on this topic. 

The Good - for me its the culture,  the sense of community and family.  But to truly experience this you need to get into real life, not tourist life.  As noted above those expats who live surrounded by other expats are not likely to truly experience it.

The other huge plus is the music and dancing -  dancing is my passion!  Here I can indulge my passion 364 days a year!  Yes there is one day that is without music and dancing,  Good Friday!  I can live with that.

The FLIP side:  For me it was the difficulty in learning the language - I am not gifted in that area, so for me it was challenging, still can be.

The garbage -  nowt that takes some getting used to and I hate it.  Lets hope the government does something about it.

Of course we cannot possibly create a cons list without including ELECTRICITY.  The system here is awful, electricity is  inconsistent, expensive and you need to have a backup power system in place.  It interferes in daily life as well as in business!

I will stop there and invite everyone to take part in this conversation!

I want to post on here so some of our regulars see this!  Bob I know you will want to respond! How about some of the other regulars......

I will respond but tomorrow as I want to think about what to write.  Right now time for Pizza

Bob K

Ok where to start.  First off living here and vacationing here are two vastly different experiences.   The first piece of advice for anyone wanting to live here is to come for an extended period of time (3-4 months) and see if the country  “fits” for you.

Second don’t come here “running” away from something back home.  Baggage follows you where ever you go and it may actually be harder to deal with in a foreign land.
As someone said to me in the beginning (Planner and Graham) take off the rose colored glasses if you want to enjoy living here.

Yes there definitely are two sides of the postcard here.

The good side is the people, culture, slower paced life (Type A’s don’t do well here), weather, beaches, music, Presidente, cigars, food, and general lifestyle. But understand the lifestyle is not for everyone hence the advice to come and visit for a while before jumping in.

On the minus side of the postcard is the lack of drinking water, all water you consume must come from a bottle, lack of electricity (very few have 24/7 electric), sometimes a lack of common sense of the local Dominicans, local work ethic and abilities (never expect something to be done correctly the first time here or even done at all.  Planner’s closet boy is an example), crazy drivers, crazy moto drivers, lack of any road sense or courtesy. Also sometimes the attitude of other Expats who sit around and complain all the time gets tiring.  Instead of complaining do something to help; there are lots of volunteer activities you can get involved in.  Volunteering your time and expertise is actually a plus for those that do this.

Leaning at least basic Spanish is a must.

For us now living here full time for nearly 8 years ( I have been back to the US for 37 days in the last 8  years) the place “fits” just  fine and the positive side of the post card far outweighs the negative side.

Bob K

Well said Bob!!!!   I think the word that comes to mind is: adapt!

If you are not able to go with the flow and adapt to the pace of life you can forget about it!  I am type A, driven, fast paced etc.  I have learned to adapt to the pace of life here, to slow down, to handle things as they are. It is not my place to make them adapt to me - nope - other way around.

WE must ADAPT to HERE! 

Great point Bob, volunteer here. But please don't go in with an attitude of we will show you how to do it. Go in, help, listen and learn.  Your ways may in fact be better - or - NOT.  I have found much of what I assumed in my first 2 years here was wrong.  But I learned and adapted! 

I volunteer with 3 charities and I love doing it.  Each is very different from the other.  www.drsea.org help young baseball hopefuls prepare via education.  Beyond the Beach Childrens Foundation helps a number of organizations here and a new charity: Instituto tecnico para el Desorrollo Juvenil  a new charity I helped found that helps young women - age 11 to 15 who become pregnant or who have young babies - we help them stay in school,we provide medical care, personal education and help care for the little ones! 

If you are here - get involved in something.  It is the best way for us to help.

Yes volunteer and you are correct don't think you are going to change things and create a "new" way but rather see what is happening and try to improve that.

Many who have moved here have all kinds of expertise that can be put to good use.

Most of our volunteering has been through the free medical and dental clinic at Monkey Jungle as well as fundraisers for various charities here on the north coast almost all having to do with the kids.  The children are the future and education is the main way of improvement.

Bob K

I absolutely agree Bob!!! I know you have done many things to help!

Hello, this is an interesting way to share your own experiences or to learn from experiences of others. Yes there is surely a negative side to my Dominican postcard.

I have been giving this some thought since I saw this last week. I am normally a positive person. I need to be positive so I dont go crazy here in Santo Domingo. I am also a teacher and it doesnt do anyone any good to dwell on the negative. But I do want to share my thoughts. Maybe a little at a time, and now just to break the ice.

My name is Steve and I am American. I have traveled to this country 30 times since 2004. Now I have been living in Santo Domingo for two and a half years.

I dont agree there are 2 types of expats as stated last week. I understand that point of view, but it is not set in stone. My 8 years of traveling between Miami and various locations around Cibao and to Samana were enjoyable. Over those years, I was in love with a Dominicana, and turned a blind eye to some of my negative observations. I do speak Spanish, and I am very immersed in Dominican life and lifestyle. I still try to remain positive, but I dont like Santo Domingo and maybe one criteria of those two types of expats is if you have money or not.

I teach English to educated business professionals as well as in the university here. There is a wide range of personalities and attitudes. They are my only peace I find here. I have been told more than once that the Dominican Republic has lost its culture (or is losing its culture) due to the poor education system or lack of education and due to government corruption. Some expats might say we need to immerse ourselves into the culture. I will cover that joke at some other time. When in Rome do as the Romans ? No !!! I throw my trash in the zafacon, and I dont spit or clear my nose walking down public streets, and I wait until I get home to relieve myself. These behaviors are very common along the streets of Santo Domingo. And I am sorry to to say that the natural beauty of places such as Puerto Plata is ruined by the locals (La Gente).

I study history and culture. There is rich (and complex) history in this country. The majority of Dominicans I speak to do not understand or care of the heroes of their nation. One exception is the Hermanas Mirabal because they are very prominent on the 200 peso note. There are various statues and monuments here in Santo Domingo. Most of them if not behind locked doors have graffiti for decoration, and usually smell of urine as you walk past them.  Walk around Parque Independencia and enjoy.

One last point for now is what we always here about the kind and friendly people (La gente). Well, there are kind and friendly people. If you have money there are even more !! I do recall good people in the campo and being treated like a king is family homes. But if I had to generalize my experience in this city, I would call the kind and friendly as the exception.

Working with students and business professionals is a pleasure for me. The city in general is not.

Comments welcome,
Steve


Some one says to me ¨Oh what a beautiful city is Santo Domingo¨. I try not to laugh.

Steve good post.
A lot of what you are feeling I think is because of where you live.  I know some folks do well in the "big" city, Planner as an example.  But for many we avoid the cities as much as we can for many of the reasons your bring up.

Even though we live in a "tourist" zone there is a huge expat community here and a good mix of locals, expats and tourists in the area.  We find that the local Dominicans are much friendlier, helpful, and "not out to get you" at every corner. I personally could not live in a city like Santo Domingo.

Bob K

Thanks for your post Steve!!!! It is always interesting to see others experiences and opinions!  One persons paradise does not make it everyone's.  So true.

And we all need to be careful of generalities! I am guilty of it.  I loved your comment about Santo Domingo being beautiful.  There are certainly beautiful spots, but this is NOT a beautiful city, far from it......

And i want to comment on this: " I have been told more than once that the Dominican Republic has lost its culture (or is losing its culture) due to the poor education system or lack of education and due to government corruption. "

For all intents and purposes that is the culture here. It has not lost anything in my opinion, the culture is of undereducation, of government corruption. That is not new at all!  That goes back years and years.  So we can only hope to lost that!   I like to think the current government is doing something about the education here - slowly but surely! 

I would love to hear your experiences teaching in a university!  Tell us the good the bad and the beautiful......LOL

Good morning and thanks for sounding back to me. I was halfway expecting an argument, but seems like we are in agreement regarding lack of culture. I have traveled a lot here and I know that people are different here and there, especially in a campo area.

I mentioned before that I traveled here 30 times in 8 years prior to coming to live. I do have some wonderful memories, though still I turned my blind eye to a few things. I remember of few times being surprised at certain behaviors showing lack of common decentcy. I thought maybe it was isolated behavior. Now I realize that it is not isolated. It is La Gente.

Most of my travels were between Santiago, Puerto Plata and Caberette. Also I spent time in Mao and in La Vega and across to Samana a Las Terenas. There are many places I have not been, and I had never spent time in Santo Domingo. Now I have learned a lot. And it ¨aint so nice¨.

By the way, my impression of Santiago is not much better. Seems the major avenidas or carreteras are more orderly but overall 2nd biggest mess.

Some cultural thoughts. I enjoy the quiet of the classroom environment. Outside those walls I am plunged back into a loud and dirty city. People can be nice and sometimes helpful or generous. If I am in the company of college students or the business professionals I work with I find them generally to be open minded and good people. In the campo I have met sweet and hospitable families. But the overall mix of people are ignorant and have full lack of regard for decent standards of behaviour. On the north coast, I think there is the exception of Cabarette. But in Puerto Plata, I could only enjoy the touristy section of the Malicon. Most other areas are a trash heap. Its very sad that the Dominicans destroy their own surroundings.

Well, that is enough for now. I am just happy there is good jugo naturales out there along my street. I am loco for naturales !

Steve

Ahhh here is one observation for you to consider: you are judging their "standards of decency" against your own values. You do not have to like it or do it, but it is not your place to judge it!  We are guests in this country and it is not for us to change or judge.

I too am a bit disgusted by some behaviours, like blowing their nose onto the street! For us, we use kleenex. BUT now imagine that you have 5,000 pesos a month for transportation, food, living expenses.  Do you really think you have money to buy extra toilet paper,  paper towels or goodness even Kleenex????  there are reasons these habits developed. 

My intent is NOT to argue but to simply point out the differences. I love good spirited conversations!  wooo hoooo

I so understand the need for some peace and quiet here. I am so fortunate to live in a  very very quiet area of Santo Domingo.  I sit in my home office, overlooking my back patio, surrounded by palm trees, mango trees etc. I hear the wind in the trees and of course, my salsa music playing at a "normal" decibel level.....

An oasis of quiet is a gift here.

Ahhhhh Steve ! Sounds like you have been through a lot here, and have experiences similar to mine. I read your post and understand that you have enjoyed some facets of Dominican life and culture that are pleasant. I have also. I think my ONE favorite night in this country was when I was the only foreigner in town. It was a hot summer night, and I wanted to hear the music and dance. Well I danced all night. The people were great !! That is the good side of my postcard. There are more.

Send me a private message if you can. I would love to hear more. Ten years traveling is a long time. Sounds like you and me didnt come with a silver spoon mantality or rose colored glasses.

Funny you should mention the nose clearing habit (or nostril explosions) and I know exactly what you mean. The Planner did not like your comment. I doubt she has walked the streets much and smelled urine at national monuments. She is too comfortable in her home office overlooking palm trees. Yo creo que no es tipico de la vida aqui por mucha gente.

Anyway, I was sitting outside at a quiet cafe just yesterday when a FOOD HANDLER rushed outside on the sidewalk among customers and clients. He didnt look or care to look where he was blowing his nose. He just did what comes natural and cleared his GRIPE for everyone to share. The other Dominicans and extranjeros were shocked. They passed judgement ...... and so did I.

Too many foreigners come here and expect a laid back and beautiful cultural experience. I do read your post between the lines. I also have live that life here. I think my fellow Canadians should leave their ¨rose colored¨ glasses back
home, eh ?

HAHAHA you are quick to assume! My voyage to the home office overlooking Palm trees has passed thru many a barrio, down more then my share of questionable streets. I don't like those behaviours either but at least I try to understand them!

I've never had a silver spoon in my life, not raised that way, I've worked for everything I have. I've worked with a broad sector of Dominicans in my over 10 years here.

One thing we do share is the love of music and dance!

Looks like the subject died and was thrown to the zafacon ............. So many people have NO idea about that other side of the postcard here in the Dom Republic

They are sill wearing the rose colored glasses.

Bob K

Often they are. I saw some of that this past weekend.

Oh do tell. Sometimes they make for funnystories

Bob K

To Steve,
I am sorry to hear to dislike Santo but i kinda agree, it's the capital and not, to me, the place i would choose to live in.
However, if you do not like Santo, why would you stay there? why not moving in a different city, neighborhood...?

Thanks for the whole article, interesting and pretty close to my little experience of that city.

As for the nose blowing on the street...i see that behaviour even in Canada, in Montréal, Jasper, Calgary.... even in Paris-France-, they just do it more in DR.

I think a bit more the same way as Bob, i rather be on the north coast, more touristy but being able to enjoy a nice real and friendly local lifestyle, plus, you dont have to spend your days with expats only.

I talked to this canadian expat one day in Cabrera, poor men, was pissed about the whole DR because i got taken advantage of by a dominicana... no wonders, the men's about 50 and married a 20 year's old, all he did was complaining that life was way to expansive in DR but still he prefered to rent a house for $1000 a month and spend his days at the bar on the Parque Central.

If you let yourself go and fade in, appreciate simple things in life, you might forget a bit the bad side!
I am hoping to be able to leave for the DR within the next 2-3 years to settle down and i know not everything is beautiful, but at least, to me, better than Montréal.

Well, I love the DR & most of the Dominican people.
One thing you cannot forget is that this is a third world country!
EDUCATION, EDUCATION & more EDUCATION is
all that is needed.
I have noticed everything is getting better in the
10-11 years I have been coming here.
Except the traffic, electricity & water of course.
Danilo has made remarkable strides in education here!
We are on the way to a better country.
I've been here full time almost 3 years now, married to
a beautiful woman & her family is great!
They all work!
I don't think anyone really likes the big cities here except the young.
Bright lights, etc., the same, world over.
I just can't deal with the mountains of garbage in SD.
It's a wonder there is not a bigger problem with rats!
Oh well, life is great in Cabrera!
Especially at "Manny's Bar" on the new malecon!!!

Thanks Tomas. Based on your post I must be young.....woooo hoooo. Seriously, good points. Great strides are being made in education! So good to see, but we have a long way to go.

Garbage - don't get me started! Electricity - ditto!

I will have to get to Cabrera soon I think!

Education is the only way out!  Up till the current administration there has  not been much emphasis on education in this country.  Some great strides have been made but they must continue into the next presidency.  It us unfortunate that there are not nearly the number of qualified teachers around but I hope that continues to improve as well.

We support our housekeepers two daughters in a private school to try and give them the best education they can possibly get here and improve their future. 

It is all about education and the kids!

Bob K

It sure is Bob!

Bob K wrote:

On the minus side of the postcard is the lack of drinking water, all water you consume must come from a bottle...

New poster here. I've been perusing lots of posts in lots of topics, gleaning tidbits of info about DR and appreciating the invaluable insights offered by all of you. Your (Bob) comment about drinking water really hit a hot button as that is my professional field. I retired 22 years as a lab director at a municipal water quality facility and now work even longer hours by doing water treatment consulting (mostly private wells) and marketing some home water treatment units and systems.

Generally speaking, if any public tap water system is considered potable by any stretch, and if it is chlorinated, it will usually prove to be treatable to the point of considering it to be safe drinking water. Of course, that's with a full water analysis in order to specify the right technology to treat it. I'm curious about the general character of your local tap water in DR -- whether it is chlorinated; what renders it unsuitable for drinking water as-is; whether any local businesses are marketing treatment systems (that work) for that tap water.

Thanks in advance for any info in that regard. Wife and I are Internet researching several warm climate semi-retirement getaway spots and the DR is in the top 3. I'm especially curious about how treatable -- if it's even close to being considered "potable" -- DR tap water might be.

Happily, retirement from my day job only served as a catalyst to spur a long-dormant entrepreneurial itch. Happily as well, I hear it's incurable.

Welcome to The Site!
First of all, the bottled water is good,
also 35-40 pesos for 5 gallons, delivered!
The tap water is only for washing & cooking.
I have the water to a full boil
before adding the veggies, pasta, etc.
There are systems for "purifing" the water
but I have never seen one.
That's it for me but I'm sure others will comment!

Ad far as I know the water is no where near drinkable nor chlorinated. Drinking water is bought in 5 gallon bottles for about a $1!

There is also the question about the quality of the various brands.

And welcome to the forums!!!

YankeeAirPilot.
Welcome to the forum.  As to the water there is NO chlorinated water, No real water treatment plans, seems to be NO interest in the government to change this situation, NO purifying systems to be installed of any value.

With purified water running at 80 cents for a 5 gallon bottle leads to no incentive to change.

Bob K

Thanks all for the welcomes and the info on the public water circumstances. Strange juju, but that's sort of the impression I got from friends who had visited, and one who had once owned property in DR. Sounds kinda like some bottled water producer has a "connection" to help cultivate that disincentive to provide safe, chlorinated tap water. Wouldn't be an isolated situation if that's what's going on. Again, thanks for the insights.

You are welcome and hopefully you will continue to participate in the DR forum

Bob K

There are many producers, so no monopoly!  It's not been on the political agenda to fix this!

And to add a little known fact here, The Dominican Republic
& Canada are 2 of the very few countries where the People own the
countries water rights. Even the great USA have sold the water rights
for their countries to private companies, like Nestlies.

Oh yeah The water "companies" just go up
in the campo & pump water from a good source.
Others have a little "purifying" system.

Interesting fact  Tomas, did not know that about the water system, It is probably just a matter of time before they privatize that too, just like the electricity system which truly sucks in exchange for what you pay! True highway robbery!

       I heard on the news last night they are planning on starting the 2nd metro line. The current line is beginning to suffer from what I knew would happen, maintenance problems.  Escalators are falling apart, trains not getting to their destinations on time, etc..... Call me crazy but, would it not make sense to fix the electrical system at least 80 to 90% before building a railway solely dependent on electricity? The same thing is happening with a group of buses the government brought in to make the transportation system better, more than half the buses are in the graveyard due to a lack of maintenance and parts. 

       Money being wasted left and right and in the 21st Century this Island still does not have 24 hours electricity and safe drinking water? Looks like folks need to choose their leaders more carefully.

Unfortunately we are in a third world country.
We have not reached the level of corruption
required to be a 2nd or 1st world country.
Whatever the hell that means!
Have a great DR day!

LoL Tomas I hear you on that point.  Pretty much all governments are corrupt, it is just that some steal and privatize less than others, and invest a little more into the country than others.  I guess the least you could do as a corrupt body of government is to make the place you are stealing from a bit nicer while you are there. :-)

So the metro is working on the first extension of the 2nd line and are well into it. Still the elevators are broken but some repairs are going on...

The water battling companies do treat the water, some just better then others.

Buses - I've been working extensively in this area. 300 buses were purchased and parked on military land. A maintenance contract was signed and $$$ paid.  But of course no maintenance happened.

Now the blame game is on.....

This is the same old story over and over again.  The last president built the metro to "prove" that the DR was not a third world country. Too bad he forgot about electricity, water, education, health care, useable roads, public works that actually work.  All necessary to join the "real" world.

Bob K