Foreign prejudice against people born in Bulgaria

@mickeyhart

My personal opinion is that every nation having their own religion and beliefs should populate a teritory of their own. As rasist as it may sound, I wouldn't feel safe living f..e with Sentinelese tribe. We are all different, we have different moral and ethics, different level of mind evolution if you wish.

The gypsy problem is not a prejudice, it is a known fact. Most of them do not study, do not work, they live on benefits and thefts.

Have you seen a gypsy doctor or teacher? The government has treatened them more than well, most of the education money go to gypsy schools, the result is the same.

What is prejudice in that case? The states have similar politics towards afroamericans, Germany /actually the whole world/ is "guilty towards the jews, the Uk - India. At the end of the day the only prejudice is towards the WHITE man, luckily we can still use this word, unlike other colors, everyone is demanding something from the white race to a point where we, the white people, start demanding from ourselves too. It is just so twisted and wrong

@mickeyhart

I dont  think it's racism Micky it's just that what your reading is a lot of people who have bad experiences from a section of the Bulgarian society... Unfortunately also there all done by stealth aswell ..  IV had my fair share of problems with sneak thievery and malicious damage..  .. stones thrown at my house breaking the outer insulation .. electric stolen to the tune of 500lv.   Decorative stone stolen ..  automatic light destroyed so they could do it .. 

I'm not the only Brit here who had to put up with it..

My Bulgarian friend tells me of things that have happened..  beggars belief.

IV had to totally adjust my actions and thinking up here in Samokov ... All because of a minority of Bulgarian society who just cannot be trusted and are not interested in fitting into mainstream Bulgaria ..

Better known as Xenophobia (a fear or dislike of anything perceived as being alien, or foreign).  It happens everywhere, to every colour or race.  There are Xenophobes all over the world, the word comes from ancient Greek, so there's nothing new about it.

@mickeyhart

Not saying you're wrong, but from what I've seen the Bulgarians themselves display significant racism/antipathy towards (Bulgarian) "Gypsies" and (Bulgarian) "Turkish".

Moreover, I'm not sure that what folks are asking about is the people themselves, but the particular settlements. In Brazil (as an example), they call them "favelas", and in the UK we used to have "slums" (maybe we still have a few). The former are full of Brazilians, and the latter were full of Brits. The issue isn't who lives there so much as you don't want to buy a nice house off the Internet... which happens to be right next to a favela or a slum (or even in it). But Bulgarians don't have a name for an equivalent Roma settlement.

I've driven several times through Stolipinovo in Plovdiv, which is a very large Roma community... and it is proper scary. I would not want to walk through it, that's for sure. My Bulgarian buddy in Plovdiv won't even drive through it! Near our village house (relatively) I pass similar (but smaller) communities just outside Banya and Maglizh. I have nothing against any of the inhabitants... but I'm very, very glad that our house isn't there. :-)

Personally, we had (for a few years) a flat up in Glasgow, in a tenement block in the Gorbals-adjacent former slumlands. It still looked a wee bit scary when we first rocked up... and certainly the price reflected that it was a fairly undesirable location. But it turned out to be a great place, as it was next to the Clyde, and a short walk to the town centre and a couple of beautiful parks (in the rich folk's districts, of course). Even though its reputation still followed, we were there long after it really was a slum. However, this process of improvement and assimilation (or "gentrification" maybe) takes many, many years. Many of the early adventurers into the East End, or the Bronx, did extremely well on their property investment... but that's just a bit too much adventure for me!

I suppose a less prejudicial way to discuss this is to refer to a society's "underclass". They exist in Bulgaria, USA, Brazil, UK. The UK is full of talk about these "workshy benefit scroungers" as if all/most of such communities fit this description (or insult). This isn't racist, but it's just as prejudiced and demeaning, and there are many in the world who will maintain that these people are there by their own fault (not civilized, not like other people, won't work, won't go to school, prefer government handouts, etc., etc.). The reality is all/most folks born into poverty would love to get out of it... but it's not so easy, as there's a "cycle" of poverty, and even the smartest, hardest-working kid has to be very lucky to get out and get themselves an education and a successful career. It's even harder in Bulgaria where there's far less government support and more overt racial prejudice and anti-Roma sentiment and behaviour.

I read an article about Stolipinovo recently, and it said that many of the Roma there regularly work in Germany, then bring the money back and spend it on renovating their property. Collectively, there's a lot of improvement. Not only did they earn far more in Germany than they could in Bulgaria, but they said they liked being "Bulgarians" there... rather than "gypsies" here.

I don't think there is a country where Xenophobia doesn't happen. We do live in a very sad and cruel world.

@SimCityAT hows it xenophobia when YOU are the foreigner and the Gypsy is the native!

Philmckay got his place in Samokov and anyone whos been  knows the score just by having a butchers. I went on the way to Borovets once you can suss it out just passing through. Gwynj mate, you're bang on about that one ghetto in Bulgaria. Thats what happens when the commies forced gypsies to live in a ghetto. They dont stand a bleeding chance.

Force anyone in a ghetto like that and troubles bound to kick off. Same story back home in our old schemes.

Your all making solid points and it ties in with my view. Brits in Bulgaria are not heading for the ghetto are they. Apart from philmckay expats are all rocking up in villages a whole different kettle of fish. The ones that actually rocked up in Bulgaria and settled arent having any barney with the Gypsies right?

It's the armchair experts like derekhandyman on about "the Gypsy problem" in some deserted joint hes never set foot in. grumpyoldbird – pops over to Bulgaria once as far as I gander and now shes on about Troyan like shes been there for yonks. She hasnt been there so what gives with spreading prejudice against Bulgarian citizens born in this country?

You are the foreigner here not the Gypsies so lets have some respect. Just saying give natives born in this country a chance before you start flapping your gums about a country you never stepped foot in.

    @SimCityAT hows it xenophobia when YOU are the foreigner and the Gypsy is the native!
   

    -@mickeyhart

You have not lived aboard very much, have you?

    @SimCityAT hows it xenophobia when YOU are the foreigner and the Gypsy is the native!
   

    -@mickeyhart

Because idiocy is exportable.

It's a sad situation. People get labelled, shunned, can't get work, get trapped in poverty, over generations a culture of hopelessness develops, and what chance do they have? I imagine it's very like the sink estates in Britain. A smart kid growing up there has to work ten times as hard and overcome so many additional pressures to get a place at uni to study law or medicine, compared to some nice upper-middle class kid from a private school.

OTOH, it's not necessarily judging those who have little choice about living in a sink estate to say that as we are blessed with choice, we'd prefer not to buy a property in one ourselves.

In my most humble of opinions, racism is likely a throwback to semi-evolved caveman brains from times when strangers were a possible threat.

Sadly, a lot of people still have semi-evolved caveman brains.

Even worse, there's often money or political advantage in racism, so some groups push it to semi-evolved caveman brained people.

Quite why this special brand of idiocy should be discussed on a forum for people who choose to live outside their social, religious, and/or racial groups is beyond me. It's really very odd.

After all, what sort of utter moron would move to a place where he or she is afraid off or hates local people?

    Better known as Xenophobia (a fear or dislike of anything perceived as being alien, or foreign).  It happens everywhere, to every colour or race.  There are Xenophobes all over the world, the word comes from ancient Greek, so there's nothing new about it.
   

    -@Cynic

Lots of words in English "come from Ancient Greek" but that doesn't make them ancient.  "Xenophobe" is a "portmanteau word" which has only existed in English for barely 100 years.  Amusingly, it was subsequently  adopted by French and thence absorbed into Modern Greek.

The Ancient Greeks did however have a practice which bears some similarity to xenophobia, called "Xenelasia".  This involved expelling foreigners whose presence was deemed detrimental to the good of the state or the nation.  It seems that the principle is alive and well in many parts of the EU.....

        Better known as Xenophobia (a fear or dislike of anything perceived as being alien, or foreign).  It happens everywhere, to every colour or race.  There are Xenophobes all over the world, the word comes from ancient Greek, so there's nothing new about it.        -@Cynic

Lots of words in English "come from Ancient Greek" but that doesn't make them ancient.  "Xenophobe" is a "portmanteau word" which has only existed in English for barely 100 years.  Amusingly, it was subsequently  adopted by French and thence absorbed into Modern Greek.

The Ancient Greeks did however have a practice which bears some similarity to xenophobia, called "Xenelasia".  This involved expelling foreigners whose presence was deemed detrimental to the good of the state or the nation.  It seems that the principle is alive and well in many parts of the EU.....
   

    -@JimJ

Yep - as I said, it happens all over the world.

There seem to be some airy-fairy Lefty undercurrent to this discussion.  Just to set a few things straight:

• the Socialist/Commie government didn't push the Roma into ghettoes, in fact quite the opposite.  They forced them to integrate but it was a social disaster.  Everyone worked - there was no alternative to that if you wanted to eat but housing integration simply failed.  Roma families were allocated apartments in the same "panel blocks" as everyone else but they weren't willing to get along and follow the usual rules and niceties required for communal living.  The ghettos we see nowadays were their own choice; reading the German media will throw up examples of precisely the same behaviour among Roma incomers there.
• some people might call it "xenophobia" but a bit of time browsing the Bulgarian newspapers will soon enlighten even those who are wilfully blind to the truth.  I'd suggest researching "attacks on doctors and medical staff in hospitals" for starters, but there are plenty of other topics you'll come across if you care to look.
• I can give you first-hand instances from my in-laws, who offered local Roma paid work in their fields but were told to their faces that it was easier for them to wait until someone else had done it and then simply steal the crops.

There's a massive difference between prejudice and lived experience when it comes to how people react to each other; coming to another country and viewing everything through the rose-tinted prism of your own preconceptions is simply ridiculous.

Yep - as I said, it happens all over the world.
   

    -@Cynic

You also said that it's Ancient Greek and therefore also ancient.  Can we trust your pronouncements?

Here's a thought: how about we don't call it "xenophobia" then - that is just a generalised way to rubbish other people's perceptions and experiences.  In the case in point, you're accusing the majority of Bulgarians of being xenophobes, which sounds like blatant prejudice to me.  You're speaking from theory without knowing what they and their neighbours have experienced.

    Yep - as I said, it happens all over the world.        -@Cynic

You also said that it's Ancient Greek and therefore also ancient.  Can we trust your pronouncements?

Here's a thought: how about we don't call it "xenophobia" then - that is just a generalised way to rubbish other people's perceptions and experiences.  In the case in point, you're accusing the majority of Bulgarians of being xenophobes, which sounds like blatant prejudice to me.  You're speaking from theory without knowing what they and their neighbours have experienced.
   

    -@JimJ

With respect fella, I'll call it what I prefer to, if people in Bulgaria don't like foreigners simply because they are not from Bulgaria, then they are xenophobes; it's not hard, is it?

I remember an " English master builder," once said to me, You don't get immigrants here like in the UK. To which I replied We are the the immigrants, and your behaving just like the people in the UK who you dislike, you cannot be bothered to learn the language, you live in a village surrounded by other people from the UK and you're taking work from local people. I could tell by looking at him that he just didn't understand. Anyway I've never used his services since and try to employ local people if possible.

So jimj as a "lefty "pensioner  I'd like to say there's only one race and it's all human .

Oh dear Micky what have you started tut tut ... As Micky says I live in a town where there is a huge Roma population .. when I bought the house I knew nothing about them ..  but when I went there my prime objective was to be as close to borovets as possible 10 minutes drive without paying the 1300euro per sqm or the 800 euro service charge each year for an apartment just to live on the resort ...

There was 2 places for sale back then and it's not much different now ...

I have been thier for 16 years  had some bad things done to my house ... It's the vandalism that gets me the most as it's so pointless ... At least when I had stuff nicked there was a point in them doing it  in the 1st place ..  I adapted to the petty thievery and nothing gets left outside.. I have COT I have had special window locked that cannot be opened with screwdrivers.. now iv retired I'll have all the time in the world to build a walled defence which I'll make it as undesirable as possible for people to get over..  outside of that I'm happy to be friendly with anyone who wants to be friendly ....   Whatever colour there skin ... I can see why Bulgarians have some issues with them ...  When we go home there is an old Roma lady who picks through the garbage for food... Uugh.. so we give her all the food we have left over and that's quite a lot generally ...  I don't as a rule get  to close to people as you never know if they are a smiling assassins.  So be friendly but not best friends . Curtasy and kindness cost nothing ... My wife thought me that. 

@mickeyhart

How am I spreading prejudice? I've never been to Troyan, but I know someone who has lived there for a long time. I actually said it's no crime to be poor and they move away for 3 months or more, to earn money.  I have seen a photo of their house and if I knew how to upload it to this forum I would. I don't think it would be snobbish to say I'd be surprised if anyone on this forum would want to live next door to it. It's also been pointed out to me by several people who already live in Bulgaria, that its the Bulgarian's who are racist towards the gypsies, not the Brits and in fact treat them very badly.

Hopefully this will be my last move and I'd like it to be in a nice area, particularly as I live alone. What's wrong with wanting to live in a nice area and feeling safe in your own home? If that makes me prejudiced, then maybe I am.

So jimj as a "lefty "pensioner  I'd like to say there's only one race and it's all human .
   

    -@Kath948381

Indeed so - but I haven't seen anything questioning that in this discussion, unless you're a real Lefty who claims to see racism in every aspect of life and charges about attacking it like Don Quixote.

The point is that it's NOT prejudice when you've been victimised by thieves and vagabonds, and the phenomenon is repeated all over Eastern Europe and well beyond.

This is getting silly.

We all have stories of one sort or another.

I could produce a good number about the state of drunks and druggies in the UK. None proving anything about the vast majority of people in Yorkshire or the other bits of the United Kingdom that don't matter as much.

When at a very nice hotel in Thailand, the receptionist asked me why I didn't take prostitutes and ladyboys back to my room. I explained she was seeing the scumbag end of the British people, and most don't do that stuff. She saw a bad sample, and believed all were the same.

Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of true horror stories about Roma out there, but they mean a grand total of nothing unless you compare with the general population AND take other factors into consideration.

For the expats who moan about the country they CHOOSE to live in, and are scared of the locals, perhaps a flight home would be in order.

https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/fil … OMA_EN.pdf

https://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/20 … y-findings

The EU (I'm not a fan of that bunch) tells a different story. It strikes me, assuming the discrimination they report and comments on this thread suggest, the Roma aren't even close to as bad as some claim.

I found the following interesting

https://www.statista.com/statistics/125 … it-crimes/

People believe Roma will commit crimes but have absolutely no real evidence to prove their point.

Could that same racist idiocy be at work in this thread?

Of course, if you go looking for "prejudice" and interview people who feel that everything is someone else's fault, it's hardly surprising that you find what you were hoping to.

There's no reasoning with folk who have already decided that virtue-signalling trumps the truth and that perpetrators are really all victims, as long as you look at things through the prism of Society Is To Blame.

Do you seriously think that any report which finds that criminality is a lifestyle choice among the supposedly marginalised is going to see the light of day?

Hello everyone,

Please note that I have put aside some posts that might inflame this topic.

Our primary goal is to maintain a positive and respectful environment for everyone.

Thank you

Bhavna

I think its unfair to point fingers at 1 group of people. Gangs of all nationalities operate everywhere across Europe.

I think

    -@SimCityAT

You clearly do - Others less so

Was it me that started this about the Gypsies when I asked whether Gypsies lived in a certain village? I certainly didn't mean to start trouble. I have been looking at Houses in BG for many years now, and during that time I had never heard about Gypsies. That was until a Bulgarian Estate Agent mentioned that in a certain village there were no gypsies. He used this as a selling point and I started to wonder why he would mention this.

That is when I took to the forum and asked if gypsies where a problem in the villages. Some people had, had bad experiences with them and others defended them. I certainly would not want to buy a house that every time I came back to the UK I would be worrying about if my House/Tools where going to be ok.

This has put certain doubts in my mind about BG. To the point where I have now started researching Italy and Sicily about the 1 euro houses that they are selling.

This has put certain doubts in my mind about BG. To the point where I have now started researching Italy and Sicily about the 1 euro houses that they are selling.
   

    -@derekhandyman

€1 does sound nice, but there are some very strict rules, like all renovations must be completed in 3 years. Looking at some of the conditions you would need to pump €200,000 into them. Breaking any of the rules, you lose the property without a refund.

If it was all so simple everyone would be doing it.

    Was it me that started this about the Gypsies when I asked whether Gypsies lived in a certain village? I certainly didn't mean to start trouble. I have been looking at Houses in BG for many years now, and during that time I had never heard about Gypsies. That was until a Bulgarian Estate Agent mentioned that in a certain village there were no gypsies. He used this as a selling point and I started to wonder why he would mention this.
That is when I took to the forum and asked if gypsies where a problem in the villages. Some people had, had bad experiences with them and others defended them. I certainly would not want to buy a house that every time I came back to the UK I would be worrying about if my House/Tools where going to be ok.
This has put certain doubts in my mind about BG. To the point where I have now started researching Italy and Sicily about the 1 euro houses that they are selling.
   

    -@derekhandyman

Well, that's certainly moving things up a notch or two: why worry about where your tools are when you can  hobnob with the Cosa Nostra?

If you live in Bulgaria, choose the "right kind" of village and take sensible security measures you're considerably less likely to be burgled than in the UK I'd say. If you allow yourself to be (or appear) an easy mark or "flash the cash" then you'd be asking for trouble - and don't assume that it's only Bulgarian passport holders who prey on careless or unsuspecting foreigners.....

        Was it me that started this about the Gypsies when I asked whether Gypsies lived in a certain village? I certainly didn't mean to start trouble. I have been looking at Houses in BG for many years now, and during that time I had never heard about Gypsies. That was until a Bulgarian Estate Agent mentioned that in a certain village there were no gypsies. He used this as a selling point and I started to wonder why he would mention this.That is when I took to the forum and asked if gypsies where a problem in the villages. Some people had, had bad experiences with them and others defended them. I certainly would not want to buy a house that every time I came back to the UK I would be worrying about if my House/Tools where going to be ok. This has put certain doubts in my mind about BG. To the point where I have now started researching Italy and Sicily about the 1 euro houses that they are selling.        -@derekhandyman

Well, that's certainly moving things up a notch or two: why worry about where your tools are when you can  hobnob with the Cosa Nostra?

If you live in Bulgaria, choose the "right kind" of village and take sensible security measures you're considerably less likely to be burgled than in the UK I'd say. If you allow yourself to be (or appear) an easy mark or "flash the cash" then you'd be asking for trouble - and don't assume that it's only Bulgarian passport holders who prey on careless or unsuspecting foreigners.....
   

    -@JimJ

Exactly, you need to do your homework.

We were nattering about something completely different not left vs right.  We dont really get all that out here so keep it for your own countries.

My question was about some foreigners having a bit of prejudice against the native Bulgarians born here, ones they never clapped eyes on in their life. Like simcityat, over in Austria I think? Still piping up in a convo about Bulgarian natives hes never met. Bit off that to me. Has the bloke lived in Bulgaria?

So whats the word for this? Fred reckons its idiocy, but whats the a proper word for judging people you never met in a country you fancy moving to but haven't even visited. Bit of a head-scratcher to me.

    We were nattering about something completely different not left vs right.  We dont really get all that out here so keep it for your own countries.
My question was about some foreigners having a bit of prejudice against the native Bulgarians born here, ones they never clapped eyes on in their life. Like simcityat, over in Austria I think? Still piping up in a convo about Bulgarian natives hes never met. Bit off that to me. Has the bloke lived in Bulgaria?

So whats the word for this? Fred reckons its idiocy, but whats the a proper word for judging people you never met in a country you fancy moving to but haven't even visited. Bit of a head-scratcher to me.
   

    -@mickeyhart

I am well travelled thank you, so I can give my opinion on what I see. If you want my penny's worth, some of the worst are the British, I can get away with that because I am British and it is embarrassing. Some not all, but they do come across as more supreme than the other.

"British woman complaining her Spanish holiday was ruined because there were too many Spaniards". 

Complaining the country is backwards because there aren't 24 hours supermarkets.

    We were nattering about something completely different not left vs right.  We dont really get all that out here so keep it for your own countries.
My question was about some foreigners having a bit of prejudice against the native Bulgarians born here, ones they never clapped eyes on in their life. Like simcityat, over in Austria I think? Still piping up in a convo about Bulgarian natives hes never met. Bit off that to me. Has the bloke lived in Bulgaria?

So whats the word for this? Fred reckons its idiocy, but whats the a proper word for judging people you never met in a country you fancy moving to but haven't even visited. Bit of a head-scratcher to me.
   

    -@mickeyhart

You're being rather disingenuous when describing your initial question, as I suspect you're well aware. There's also a sharp political divide here in Bulgaria between Left and Right - and some who don't conveniently fit into either of those pigeonholes - just as there is elsewhere.

To save your head-scratching, the term I'd use is "Foreign Exceptionalism" but that opens a whole can of worms about how - if at all - one differentiates "migrants" and "expats".

I've certainly noticed in my travels around the globe that Brits are among the leaders in denigrating the natives of the various countries they wash up in, as well as in feuding with their compatriots and not learning the local language properly/at all. I've met more than my fair share who've lived in a country for years but who still haven't got a clue about its culture and history; simply living in Bulgaria doesn't, in my view, necessarily qualify someone as a expert. In much the same way, a Brit who's never set foot outside Blighty isn't ipso facto an expert on matters pertaining to the UK, however loudly he/she holds forth in the pub.

The term I'd use is "Foreign Exceptionalism"

    -@JimJ

Perfectly stated! A kind of reverse xenophobia where the foreigner in another country believes their ways are superior and they have the right to criticise and denigrate anything different. A similar thing is often seen when city-dwellers move to the country and complain to the council about farmyard smells and noises and try to have normal rural activities stopped.

Of course when we're moving looking for a better life we all want to choose a safe place we'll feel comfortable. It's wise to check on crime levels, safety, the environment around the house. Bulgaria has it's equivalent of UK's sink estates, and most wouldn't willingly choose to live there. There's nothing wrong in looking to live the best place we can and feel safe i our own homes.

But just as in the UK, a better way to phrase the question might be "Is there a crime problem here?" rather than "Do people of a specific ethnic group live here?"

@janemulberry

Well said Jane. When in Rome....

But just as in the UK, a better way to phrase the question might be "Is there a crime problem here?" rather than "Do people of a specific ethnic group live here?"
   

    -@janemulberry

The problem there is that it misses out an important element.  The reason it's phrased as it very often is is because it acts as a caveat: no-one's suggesting that what locals describe as "ordinary Bulgarians" are all angels, but there's no way of knowing who is or isn't.  Like it or not, there is a sector of society which is very likely to see the world - and property rights - in ways which not all of us might go along with.  For those who aren't worried about such things, or who welcome the opportunity to parade their woke credentials, this might well be welcome information - not to mention a chance to get a property at a bargain price.  For those seeking a quiet and stress-free life, it's another factor to take into consideration.  One has to bear in mind that prejudice works in more than one way: we can't disparage those incomers who want the natives of their host country to behave in a way which suits them while ourselves expecting them to conform to what we regard as the "correct" mindset...

This has put certain doubts in my mind about BG. To the point where I have now started researching Italy and Sicily about the 1 euro houses that they are selling.
   

    -@derekhandyman

By coincidence, today's NYT had an article about the aging of Italy, and their attempts to re-populate a village by selling off abandoned house for cheap.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/22/worl … aging.html

I was struck by their interview with a new resident (39, Italian, the pregnant pharmacist)... who said when they moved, there was nowhere for them to live... Because she didn't want to live in a ruin with no heating. :-)

That's such a sad story. Gwyn. Very like the situation with Bulgarian villages.

@derekhandyman

I hope no matter what country you end up buying in, you find what you want.

There are plenty of Bulgarian villages that are safe, and there are some that aren't as safe. My understanding is that some villages with large Gypsy populations do have crime problems. Some villages can have Gypsies living there who are good neighbours. Some villages with no gypsies still have crimes occur.

Which is why I stand by stating that maybe the best question isn't "Are there gypsies?" but "Is there a crime problem?" It's not being woke, lefty, or politically correct, but addressing the real concern we all have no matter what country we live in - can we expect our property, furniture, tools etc to still be there when we return?

There's no denying that leaving a house unoccupied for extended periods is asking for trouble. You can't expect neighbours to be alert to what's going on at your property all the time, especially at night. There's also the element of people knowing who the local burglars are and not being keen on antagonising them; crimes aren't noted for their forgiving natures if you get between them and their intended victims.

If you can afford it, it's well worth taking out a contract with a good COT (Security) company but that's not always feasible in a small village. You may be lucky and never have anything stolen, or you may be plagued by petty theft/burglary. Don't forget that people gossip, especially about foreigners, so the friendly folks next door may be as honest as the day is long but not too smart when it comes to talking about your property.