EV's. Should I or not?

The battery packs are far too expensive, so the cars are expensive, but the worst will also be the best.

Battery technology is improving at an amazing speed, especially in energy density and changing times. The latest offerings from the UK and China are talking about an 80% charge in minutes, or even seconds.

https://www.livescience.com/technology/ … production

When this happens, older packs will be worthless, thus your car will be hopelessly outdated and of far lower value.

Too late Fred, done and dusted and smiling all the way to the bank as well as a new and bigger car than the old SUV. Battery tech has come a long way especially BYD blade batteries, they come with an 8 year warranty but who knows in 8 years if that could/would or should be honoured.

The other thing is we get rid of a car after 5/6 years and buy a new one, 90% of our driving is local and simply plug it in when you get home, for no cost, no brainer Fred.

All cars lose value as soon as you drive them out the showroom door and depreciate big time over the years.

A habit we can afford and enjoy.

Cheers, Steve.

Too late Fred, done and dusted and smiling all the way to the bank as well as a new and bigger car than the old SUV. Battery tech has come a long way especially BYD blade batteries, they come with an 8 year warranty but who knows in 8 years if that could/would or should be honoured.
The other thing is we get rid of a car after 5/6 years and buy a new one, 90% of our driving is local and simply plug it in when you get home, for no cost, no brainer Fred.
All cars lose value as soon as you drive them out the showroom door and depreciate big time over the years.
A habit we can afford and enjoy.
Cheers, Steve. - @bigpearl

I believe I think in a very different way, possibly because my Yorkshire upbringing was never to waste money, partially my use of vehicles, and partially because I no longer enjoy driving.

I bought a Luxio ten years ago, it has 80,000km on the clock and runs very nicely.

It's used daily, but mostly for short runs.

That makes an EV pointless at this moment. However, aside from that, no EV I have seen so far can match its ICE equivalent for initial cost and running costs unless you exceed a given mileage over the vehicle's life.

We run 2 ebikes. They were cheap and cost nothing to charge. The lack of required maintenance and saved fuel means they will cost less than petrol machines over the 3 years I expect them to live.

The other advantage, as you mentioned, is no visits to petrol stations.

My car gets a fill up about once a month, so that's not a big deal.

LOL Fred, most here know you think very differently but we all have as members a chance to share here.

As a tight assed Aussie I was raised not to waste money and led to me becoming somewhat wealthy so a new car every 5/6 years to me is neither your ass nor your elbow, My philosophy is simple, I ain't going to take it with me when I'm pushing up the daisies.

I think you misunderstand what we purchased. It is PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle).

Electric with a petrol engine,,,,, range anxiety was why I went this way. All our local running around we might do 100KMs per day and all on batteries, get home and plug it into the over sized solar system and make use of the power generated by the sun. FREE.

As you already own 2 EV bikes you should be up on these facts especially if you have a home solar system.

We do longer trips and once the batteries get down to 25% the ICE kicks in and recharges the batteries and if needed can also deliver power to the drive train if the EV side of things is not enough. Ah the wonders of modern tech.

Thing is Fred we all have choices and simply this was ours.

Cheers, Steve.

You are correct, my reading comprehension failed me in epic style.

Your choice requires readers to understand your personal preferences, financial position, and your likes and dislikes.

However, I maintain my position on EVs - They are bad idea today, but will probably be a good idea in the future.

Yet you have 2 EV bikes and claim they cost nothing to charge Fred and will only last 3 years, that to me seems a false economy. Do you charge them on the grid (costs money) or are you wise enough to have stand alone solar?

Personal choice or a logical well researched decision? Thanks to the Gods we all have free will.

Cheers, Steve.

Yet you have 2 EV bikes and claim they cost nothing to charge Fred and will only last 3 years, that to me seems a false economy. Do you charge them on the grid (costs money) or are you wise enough to have stand alone solar?
Personal choice or a logical well researched decision? Thanks to the Gods we all have free will.

Cheers, Steve. - @bigpearl

2 little piles of junk. Both gel batteries, and both so cheap I didn't check my account before I bought them.

At three years, they will have cost sod all and a bit to own and run. That translates to around 100 USD per year all in for personal transport.

I can live with that.

All good Fred, choice no different to our 2 ICE bikes but they require registration, emission testing etc. but don't block the traffic as they travel with the flow or pass it. I'm surprised you can get 3 years out of a gel battery, well done.

Buying a new car? The BYD 6 that is PHEV was actually cheaper than purchasing an equivalent size ICE style set of wheels with all the European appointments and throw in the tech on top of that was months of research and comparisons and reality? A no brainer. Large solar system = free charging, math dictates a saving of around US 100 bucks a month not buying fuel.

Upgrading to a new car this made a lot of sense.

Cheers, Steve.

Horses for courses.

My wife's bike requires a license to drive, registration, and a tiny tax payment every year. Mine is officially a pedal bike, so needs nothing.

Mine is lighter and almost as fast as hers, and they look very similar. When it comes to new ones, she's likely to get one like mine.

@Fred

When are you going to congratulate Steve for purchasing a Chinese vehicle Fred?

Morning Midas

Zodiac Maritime

Fremantle Highway

Were transport car carriers that caught on fire.

The Felicity Ace caught on fire and sunk with 4,000 cars.

Horses for courses? No Fred. If one makes copious amounts of power from the sun an EV makes sense, the old saying? Use it or lose it. Local running around for us cost nothing to charge and longer trips it flicks over to an ICE thus no range anxiety and an equivalent or cheaper price than a conventional ICE set of wheels. 2 very different beasts and not horses for courses, far from it.

What are you going to do when it's time to upgrade your old car? I bet you look at PHEV's or a full EV given the price China is building them for,,,,,,, your favourite country.

Cheers, Steve.

Gasoline, Diesel or Hybrid choice of cars depends on your income, price or expected driving mileage.

In the US the average life of cars has been 150,000 miles and 13 years. In the US an eight year warranty of the electric cars will have zero resale value for many people if they are an average driver.

So factored in with the total cost should be the almost zero resale value after eight years.

My Toyota Camry with over 300,000 miles was replace by a Lexus and I sold the Lexus with 160,00 miles on it when I moved to the Philippines for a nice price.

So my operating cost was low considering everything.

Gasoline, Diesel or Hybrid choice of cars depends on your income, price or expected driving mileage.
In the US the average life of cars has been 150,000 miles and 13 years. In the US an eight year warranty of the electric cars will have zero resale value for many people if they are an average driver.

So factored in with the total cost should be the almost zero resale value after eight years.

My Toyota Camry with over 300,000 miles was replace by a Lexus and I sold the Lexus with 160,00 miles on it when I moved to the Philippines for a nice price.

So my operating cost was low considering everything. - @Enzyte Bob

ye gods. I have done 80k in 10 years

@FredWhen are you going to congratulate Steve for purchasing a Chinese vehicle Fred? - @Lotus Eater

Whatever works best for him is fine. Personally, I don't like them.

Mine is Japanese but built here

Depreciation is a fact of life Bob unless it's shares/property etc. and we all hope to actually make money at those levels, I care little the depreciation on a set of wheels as it's a fact of life and will simply buy new in 5/6 years and offload the old.

In the interim most of our running around is zero emissions and no fuel costs.and in 5/6 years may be comfortable going full EV as the tech and range will increase, only time will tell.

Thing is we spent more on our stand alone solar system than a new car and keen to make use of the suns rays.

Cheers, Steve.

Ye Gods Fred our old "Chinese" SUV is 6 years old and driven a whole 35,000 klicks, big deal, time for a new one and we all have choices, ours was a PHEV and so far very happy and dearly hope I don't have to replace a gel battery every 2/3 years. Will stick with the petrol motorbikes.

Japanese vehicle built in Indonesia is most likely Chinese and Mexican supplied components but if it works for you? Who am I to argue.

Cheers, Steve.

bigpearl said . . .Depreciation is a fact of life Bob

***************************

I would not buy a used electric car that is 8 years old and facing battery replacement, matter of fact not one that is four years old either.

Maybe batteries get damaged from an auto accident and need replacement. Checking price on your model at Bard AI is $11,800.

Others from Bard AI:

Nisson 8-15 thousand USD

Tesla $13-20 thousand USD

Hyundai $13,000 $13,000 USD

It's a good thing you are a low mileage driver, so it would make sense for you.

Agree Bob, I would never buy a S/H EV No matter age or klicks travelled. A new car for us is chicken sh1t financially and this one suits our needs. Would you buy a S/H A/C unit? would you buy a new A/C or refrigerator that is not fuel efficient? Inverter type? A S/H pair of sneakers?

Your Bard AI is talking sh1t and all the vehicles mentioned come in different shapes and sizes so is generalising at best.

Cheers, Steve.

Ye Gods Fred our old "Chinese" SUV is 6 years old and driven a whole 35,000 klicks, big deal, time for a new one and we all have choices, ours was a PHEV and so far very happy and dearly hope I don't have to replace a gel battery every 2/3 years. Will stick with the petrol motorbikes.Japanese vehicle built in Indonesia is most likely Chinese and Mexican supplied components but if it works for you? Who am I to argue.Cheers, Steve. - @bigpearl

It's a box on wheels that is just useful enough to own. I don't actually want it, but I have to at the moment.

As long as it works Fred.

Cheers, Steve.

I have banged on about EV's for a long time with pros and cons, the biggest being range anxiety and recharge availability but we finally took the plunge and actually went for a PHEV (plug-in electric vehicle), took delivery a few weeks ago and sort of kicking myself for not going there sooner.Went for a BYD Sealion 6 and a larger suv than our 6 Y/O Haima S5 that has been a great car once the early bugs were ironed out but the BYD is a step up both in appointments and the tech is mind-blowing, like yesterday Ben and I were having lunch in a nice Japanese restaurant and before he paid the bill he was on his phone and I asked him what he was doing, let's go, told me on the way back to the car that was 3 floors up and 2/3 hundred metres away that he turned on the A/C in the car,,,,, got to the car and absolute silence,,,,,, opened the door and cold inside, all the tech aside including talking to the car asking it to do things our general trips and running around are under 100 klicks all on battery in silence, get home and plug it into the solar system, has smart charging so can regulate itself when there is excess or low power in our solar system, pretty clever and for our local running around we used to spend on average P4 to 5K per month on fuel now nada. Longer trips we are back to fuel costs but a rare happening for us.Little things like when we got home we had our phones on the dual charging mats and when Ben turned off the car was a msg on the dash not to forget our phones.As for reliability etc. only time will tell but in the mean time we are enjoying.Cheers, Steve. - @bigpearl

I think that's fantastic, Steve. You've captured the full energy life cyle there! I always felt that the ultimate setup to reduce one's carbon footprint would be an EV or PHEV with one's own solar array.  Smart move to go for the plug hybrid. My personal opinion on full EV's up to now has been.. Ugh..  too expensive , too focused on ridiculous performance (Lucid Air, Tesla Plaid anyone?)  and they use a lot of rare minerals - just so people can virtue signal they have done their part. Having said that, we did ride in a couple EV's in Vietnam in 2024 on fairly long rides and were quite impressed. Seems they are quickly adopting the technology there..

As an engineering-focused person, I have loved hybrid technology ever since Toyota introduced them to the market in the late 90's and my mother bought one (at age 80, haha). Such an elegant solution to recapture stop and go losses, especially in the urban environment and up and down those steep Bay Area hills. And efficient use of resources. Toyota have stated they can build 6 plug hybrids or 90 regular hybrid vehicles with the same resources as one long-range EV and the overall carbon reduction of those 90 hybrids over their lifetimes is 37 times as much as a single battery electric vehicle.  If I had to buy a new car a PHEV would probably be my choice too.

While I have no full EV's, my home in the Southwest US is on dedicated solar and I have two Trek e-bikes - a full carbon performance road bike and a commuter for errands, both purchased in the last couple years and a blast to ride, this led to rarely riding the motorcycle anymore so it's being sold. And my 10 year old Audi only goes 3K miles in 6 months (including an annual road trip), so no need to replace that before I sell everything and move back overseas again. So it has been a slow evolution for me.

In the PH I have not purchased any electric vehicles yet, but will the next time something needs to be replaced. Financial constraints dictate wearing things out first. Our vehicles are all used and paid for - the diesel pickup is needed to reliably get up to our mountain place and we have a few motorbikes, mine is for local island rides with my woman and the boys each have one one to get to school. The latter could easily be replaced with e-bikes at some point. My Cannondale pedal bike is what gets me to the coffee shop and gym most mornings.

So bravo on your commitment!  I think it's exciting to see how fast the technology is evolving and coming to market, and price points really beginning to come down. Probably have to thank the Chinese for much of that - they really drove solar PV prices down over the past decade, and are now bringing EV's to the masses, but my hat is off to Elon for commercializing the technology in the first place. Huge effort and risk to drive mass adoption.  America is still pretty good at innovation I think.

Thanks pnw, wise objective observations as always.

Price point for what you get is more than competitive @P 1.55M compared to many ICE vehicles.

Euro design and appointment as well as high tech to me made it a no brainer.

Have to say pnw that I'm not ready for the leap to a full EV even though we make plenty of power I still suffer the range anxiety and like the 2 options hence the PHEV.

For our local running around it's essentially an EV and plug in when home and the power is from the sun.

If you ever get to looking when you settle the BYD 6 is worth a look at and while not a sports car is more than fast enough.

Cheers, Steve.

@Fred

I am curious as to your thoughts on solar systems especially stand alone installations that are self sufficient and require no fossil fuels, no power outages etc.

Yes the cost can be high initially but is recouped in 4 to 6 years.

Your thoughts Fred?

Cheers, Steve.

@Fred
I am curious as to your thoughts on solar systems especially stand alone installations that are self sufficient and require no fossil fuels, no power outages etc.
Yes the cost can be high initially but is recouped in 4 to 6 years.
Your thoughts Fred?

Cheers, Steve. - @bigpearl

I rather like solar, but with some points to mention

My small, experimental system worked very well. It was only 100 watts into a simple charge controller with a lead acid car battery and inverter, but even that tiny system did an amazing job.

That house had regular blackouts so the goal was to have light (12 volt LED) and be able to charge and run a few devices.

The latter were all tablets and phones so required very little power and that could be from the 12v side rather than an inefficient inverter.

The next house I build will have three circuits- The first and second will be 220 volts, the second being 12 volts.

The latter will be for lighting, and anything else that you can think of that would run from a car. The first will be decided at the time.

The second will be 600 watts or so and designed to run a single air conditioner in the daytime only. I may put that in when I move house in a couple of months.

Building it myself will mean it's cheap to install.

Larger scale, off grid, systems take more investment, especially if you want to run them at night because the batteries don't come cheap. That being a reasonable use of cash depends on a number of factors.

bigpearl asked Fred . . . I am curious as to your thoughts on solar systems especially stand alone installations that are self sufficient and require no fossil fuels, no power outages etc.
Yes the cost can be high initially but is recouped in 4 to 6 years.

*********************************

Production of solar panels have a carbon footprint.

Production is energy intensive of polysilicon used in manufacturing solar panels requiring temperatures of 1500-2000 degrees "C".

Other processes like wafering, cell fabrication and module assembly require significant energy.

Mining & processing silicon, silver, aluminum & copper contribute to fossil fuel consumption for extraction and processing.

China historically has relied on fossil fuel coal fired plants.

Maybe China should use solar panels to fuel the manufacture of the panels instead of fossil fuels.

As for me I will be dead waiting for the break even point. (ROI)

Thanks Fred, seems a rudimentary system that worked for you at little cost.

As for inefficient inverters? These days they are 95 to 99% efficient depending on input DC voltage, line distance and losses through heat and of course the quality of the inverter/s you invest in.

Australia 15 years go we put 5 Kw of panels on the roof and a 5 Kw inverter and grid tied at a cost of AU 3,400 bucks installed and the reason was running two pumps on a very large swimming pool and back then our bills were AU around 2,500 per year and in less than 2 years recouped the investment and saved around AU 2K per year there after,,,,,,,, the problem with the system was it was grid tied so if the grid went down so did our power.

Here in PH we went off grid but can still connect if there is a problem with the solar. A heck of a lot more expensive @ around P 1.9M but gives us 60Kw of your so called expensive LiFeP04 batteries, 2 x 5Kw inverters linked for load sharing and 16 Kw of solar panels and on projected figures will be a 5 year ROI and then we save around P 32 to 35K per month on power bills, comfortably run 5 to 7 A/C every day for comfort, 2 to 3 overnight in bedrooms, charge an EV through the day, money in the bank was earning 5% taxable or a solar system earning 22% not taxable,,,,, again a no brainer.

No blackouts or power surges and a zero carbon footprint.

Like everything in life Fred, choice.

Cheers, Steve.

Bob, perhaps you should consult Bard, your AI buddy on this topic and you will find that not only is China the largest solar manufacturer but also the world leader with solar farms and generation for industry as well as the domestic market.

Cheers, Steve.

Production of solar panels have a carbon footprint. - @Enzyte Bob

As is true for building any power production facility of any size.

The difference is solar causes no further pollution save maintaining it, but all other types of generation create pollution every day of their working life.

LOL Fred, at least we are on the same page with some things and for me we have half jumped the bridge when it comes to ICE vehicles given that 80/90% of our driving will come from the sun with zero emissions.

Cheers, Steve.

you will find that not only is China the largest solar manufacturer but also the world leader with solar farms and generation for industry as well as the domestic market.
Cheers, Steve. - @bigpearl

Absolutely

China jumped in ahead of the rest of the world the moment their government realised a number of things.

Even Saudi is preparing for the end of fossil fuels with their 2030 plan.

Renewable energy is the only sensible path. Even if you don't believe in climate change, the cleanup we will see as fossil fuels fall out of use will be stunning.

Returning the EV for a moment, pollution also comes in the form of noise, and EVs hardly make any. My estate has more e-bikes than ICE, and the difference over 3 years is shocking.

The place has become so much more peaceful.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Renewable energy and EVs are the way to go. It's just the battery tech and cost, but innovation is rapid.

LOL Fred, at least we are on the same page with some things and for me we have half jumped the bridge when it comes to ICE vehicles given that 80/90% of our driving will come from the sun with zero emissions.
Cheers, Steve. - @bigpearl

I'm not very interested in cars for my own use, but I can't see me moving away from ebikes back to ICE now.

The things do what I need, and they cost pretty much nothing to do it.

Taxis, usually the new Vietnamese EV taxis now, can do the rest once the kids are out of the way.

@bigpearl

So what does it have to do with my comments, nothing as usual.

It seems you have a new buddy.

China has thousands of coal burning generating plants, more than the next 10 countries combined.

Yes Fred Saudi has taken the right path, many other countries are trying also but resistance from money makes it difficult.

Yes Fred batteries are expensive and I'm well aware of the fact owning 6 of them and whether a feel good thing or logics is an individual choice but advancements come. Steam locomotion, sending men to the moon and the way is pretty clear for those of us that consider a future for our children and grandchildren, theirs also.

As a baby boomer we just used and abused with scant regard for the environment and what we were creating/doing.

OMO but alternative transport and renewables are part of where we are headed and about time.

Cheers, Steve.

Bob, perhaps before jumping the gun you should reread my post?

I never said they were perfect and simply stated that they are world leaders in most manufacturing and also have the biggest solar farms in the world,,,,,,, drill baby drill.

Cheers, Steve.

Eventually EV's will be taxed one way or another. In the US taxes on a gallon of gas average 51 Cents, California 88 Cents.

Most of this revenue supposed to be spent on highways. In 2018, 143 Billion gallons were purchased in the US.

So the taxes were approximately 71 billion dollars and will be declining each year with the advent of EV's.

Who is going to pay for this shortfall?

An interesting thought Bob and one that calls for deep consideration at many levels but ultimately as always the average taxpayer.

While I have no idea how it works in the US so can only relate my OZ knowledge, yes there is a tax on the fuel pumped into an ICE as well as state road taxes included in your annual rego and matters little at that level as some taxes come from there no matter an EV or conventional set of wheels.

The next level? Tax the sun that recharging stations supply as most already pay taxes on fossil fuels and profits. Could that be like taxing push bikes that use the road systems? How do you police a road usage consumption from EV's, push bikes, pedestrians etc. Next will be the air we all consume.

Bob I well know my electric supplier (Luelco) were some what pissed off when our regular bill went from 10 to 12K a month to 5.6 pesos per month for the meter connection, they even sent a rep to check out our  solar installation and connection to their grid,,,,,,,, now with solar we use over 30K per month and simply pay a pittance for a supply we never or very rarely use. What is the electric company going to charge/tax me on my solar collection? Stick another meter in and charge me for the power generated by the sun?

Our EV is PHEV so does use fuel for longer trips so still contributing but not as much.

Bob I'm sure you are correct as maggots find a way into anything that can feed them,,,,, in the interim?

We love the sun.

Cheers, Steve.

The really bad thing about solar and battery technology is that they are being treated as political footballs rather than looking at the advantages and disadvantages of the systems.

It's a bit pathetic, but that's cash based politics for you.

What's new Fred? Always been that way and won't change.

Governments pushing for a green zero carbon (Australia is one) for the future are keen to have their hands out for taxes and duties on solar and EV imports but in the end the consumer will save funds and the governments will have less and as Bob stated they will think up new ways to fund an abysmal system,,,,, better them there as most wouldn't last long in a free market with competition.

Cheers, Steve.