Housing contract

Arch4291 wrote:

Could anyone advise on our situation.
We signed a contract on an apartment in December, we haven't managed to get over to the property as yet as we are in the uk. We paid the two months deposit and have been paying the rent on time. We are planning on travelling to Hungary in may to move in.

Yesterday my wife had a call from the landlord telling us that no children are aloud in the apartment. It does not state this in the contract or the advertised listing.  Is the landlord able to terminate our contract. We wouldn't of signed the contract if it said anything about no children.

Should we keep paying the rent and hold him to the contract or cut our losses and find another place?

Thanks
Adam

Have you got any kids and how old are they?   Will they be there permanently?

Hi Fluffy

Yes we have two children aged 5 and 12. The contract doesn't say anything about no children, only no pets.

Arch4291 wrote:

Hi Fluffy

Yes we have two children aged 5 and 12. The contract doesn't say anything about no children, only no pets.

Does it name the persons (you or you and your spouse) to live in the apartment?

Yes me and my wife are named on the tenancy. Do the children also have to be named on the tenancy?

Has the landlord put this new restriction in writing?  Or is it just verbal?

Has the landlord said why this is being brought up now?  What's behind it?

Arch4291 wrote:

Yes me and my wife are named on the tenancy. Do the children also have to be named on the tenancy?

Just checked the law:

21. § (1) *  A bérlő a lakásba más személyt - a kiskorú gyermeke, valamint a befogadott gyermekének az együttlakás ideje alatt született gyermeke kivételével - a bérbeadó írásbeli hozzájárulásával fogadhat be.

It says, that your minor children can live in the apartment without the landlord's written permission. If they don't want children moving into the apartment, I wouldn't fight them, but at the very least you can use the law to break the contract without losing your deposit. But I'm no expert, I suggest you consult with a lawyer.

I suppose the landlord would know about your familiy situation (seems a very relevant item when starting the renting).
Renting prices and possibilities are very challenging I believe (from a landlord perspective). If he makes difficulties now I think you would have a very good position. If however he is unaware there could be a topic. Anyhow renting (or buying) right now is not too easy. (where did you rent?)

Two years ago situtation (financially) would have been much more challenging I would think.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Has the landlord said why this is being brought up now?  What's behind it?

Landlords can disallow children for many reasons, the most common is the misconception that a non-paying tenant can't be evicted if he has children. OP, you could try to bring this up to the landlord in case this is his reason (which he might not be open about), there are quite a few articles in hungarian that refute this.

atomheart wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Has the landlord said why this is being brought up now?  What's behind it?

Landlords can disallow children for many reasons, the most common is the misconception that a non-paying tenant can't be evicted if he has children. OP, you could try to bring this up to the landlord in case this is his reason (which he might not be open about), there are quite a few articles in hungarian that refute this.

I agree, OP should try and get to the reason.  It might be some other thing driving this sudden change of direction.   Maybe they landlord simply doesn't want to do it any more, wants to sell, needs a relative to move in or something else and has invented some excuse to terminate.   

Practically speaking it would be difficult to evict.  Legal process is really slow here and the process can be quite fickle so why take the risk?  It might take years and the situation would be very uncomfortable even risky to be in there during a dispute.  But that's a good negotiating point to get at least the deposit the back.   

Worth exploring if there was some alternative to satisfying the parties before getting stuck into the law which should be a last alternative.  That would need a lawyer and more costs. Not an attractive proposition.

Best case compromise is probably getting the entire deposit back and starting again.  Already paid rent is lost.

The subject of children were never addressed in the original negotiations. We just assumed it was ok. My wife suspects they have looked on our Facebook pages and seen that we have kids. The landlord has not put anything in writing

Yes I agree that we shouldn't fight them on it and cut our losses and hopefully get our deposit back. The problem is the next month rent is due tomorrow, I don't want to keep paying rent for an apartment we may not move into. We emailed last night and no reply as yet.

We rented in Keszthely. They never asked us about children so we assumed it wouldn't be a problem. The apartment is also unfurnished. So I do t really see why they have a problem with it. We have emailed for clarification and waiting on the reply.

Arch4291 wrote:

Yes I agree that we shouldn't fight them on it and cut our losses and hopefully get our deposit back. The problem is the next month rent is due tomorrow, I don't want to keep paying rent for an apartment we may not move into. We emailed last night and no reply as yet.

Its a bit sad to hear you are having these issues and you haven't even moved in yet.
Best of luck.I hope you get your deposit back if you decide to pass on this flat without too much hassle.
I won't say you have been scammed but for sure something fishy is up.

Arch4291 wrote:

The subject of children were never addressed in the original negotiations. We just assumed it was ok. My wife suspects they have looked on our Facebook pages and seen that we have kids. The landlord has not put anything in writing

I'd suggest a cautious approach rather than laying all cards on the table.   Things should be put in writing because you only have the signed contract and everything else is verbal.   Adding new restrictions is a new negotiation and a contract modification or a new contract.   If you get them to set out their arguments and reasoning, not only will it force them to rationalise their thoughts,  you've got some record that may be of use later. 

Unless you are somehow wedded to the place then not really worth hanging on except for the deposit. 

Unfortunately in Hungary, there are some people are not able to properly follow written agreements or the law and will go off piste on an emotional whim and start applying random logic to their arguments none of which are core to their real needs. 

Getting to the real cause of the change may save the situation but it sounds like the level of trust and good faith has been lost.   Once that's gone, then it's hard to recover.   

BTW, we had a dispute with a landlord once over some minor issues (we'd rented the place for 8 years) but our deposit was just 1 month's rent.  We just said he could keep the deposit as that was what it was for.  My experiences in Europe is that it's very hard to get the money back.  Some landlords will just invent nonsense to keep the money.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Arch4291 wrote:

The subject of children were never addressed in the original negotiations. We just assumed it was ok. My wife suspects they have looked on our Facebook pages and seen that we have kids. The landlord has not put anything in writing

I'd suggest a cautious approach rather than laying all cards on the table.   Things should be put in writing because you only have the signed contract and everything else is verbal.   Adding new restrictions is a new negotiation and a contract modification or a new contract.   If you get them to set out their arguments and reasoning, not only will it force them to rationalise their thoughts,  you've got some record that may be of use later. 

Unless you are somehow wedded to the place then not really worth hanging on except for the deposit. 

Unfortunately in Hungary, there are some people are not able to properly follow written agreements or the law and will go off piste on an emotional whim and start applying random logic to their arguments none of which are core to their real needs. 

Getting to the real cause of the change may save the situation but it sounds like the level of trust and good faith has been lost.   Once that's gone, then it's hard to recover.   

BTW, we had a dispute with a landlord once over some minor issues (we'd rented the place for 8 years) but our deposit was just 1 month's rent.  We just said he could keep the deposit as that was what it was for.  My experiences in Europe is that it's very hard to get the money back.  Some landlords will just invent nonsense to keep the money.

I vaguely told my HU husband about this issue.
He got mad at the gov. for allowing this sort of BS to happen.
He has issues with how things are run here and gets upset when he hears about scams and such.
A deal is a deal after all. or it should be .
I  really do not wish to  add fuel to the fire BUT I wonder if the landlord knows the flat is sitting empty for now until May and perhaps has done a side deal to rent it out to someone else?
Anything is possible here in Hungary since the rental laws are so lax.
Just saying it is possible the landlord has collected a deposit from someone else and now since they have moved in they wish to brush you off and make it seem it is your fault the deal went sour?
OK, sorry if that was shocking or scary but this place is the new wild west in many ways.
If it is not stated in the contract that there are no children allowed then it seems they are in the wrong but hoping to keep your 2 month deposit.
It's a real shame this is happening.

I am probably over reacting but having had several businesses with US HU people I know some can see things only through their own twisted reality.
Your rights mean nothing to them.You are just a tool to them to get what they want.
If it is possible to get a friend to go over to the flat and do a quick investigation it might be worth the time.
You are on the lease after all so there is nothing wrong with a friend knocking on your door looking for you.
It could take years to get your deposit back, the courts are that slow here.
I had to take the law into my onw hands with a business dealing in Ca. with a so called "friend" .My husband rented space inside the man's shop to store our new expensive machinery.
When we wanted to cllect our property a few months later he would give it back to us. Fr some stupid reason he thought possession of our property meant he had rights to it!
Well I contacted a lawyer and was told no way, we could physically go into his shop to get our property as long as that was all we did. I had t break a window to open the door and I called the police on myself to inform them of the situation. They sent over a squad car and they actually cheered us on. We had a machinery moving truck arrive and called out a lock and window repair man to fix everything we broke. The guy was even called out by the police as an A hole which he was.
We had all the paperwork on our property and did everything by the law.
I'm not sure these days things would run so smoothly for us but even so it was stressful.
Loaned cars out to HU people only to have them break the car, had to get a new transmission for one car, a rare US car at the time which meant we had to fly the enitre transmission back to Ca. have it rebuilt and then lug it on the plane back to Hungary and find smeone who could put it in.
Turned out the guys younger bro was renting our car out by the hour for joy rides.
I'm done with business deals with Hungarians and my husband is a Hungarain!
Best of luck.
I personally have a bad feeling they are trying to double dip by renting the flat out while you are not in country. Really hope I am wrong though.
Worst case you just come over ASAP and move in.If you can't come over then send a friend or family memeber over to squat.
We own our flat but my husband always is afraid to go away long term in case some squaters move in. It's hard to toss them out and legally you can't even enter your own property here to remove them. No wonder there is an active criminal element .

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I am probably over reacting but having had several businesses with US HU people I know some can see things only through their own twisted reality.
Your rights mean nothing to them.You are just a tool to them to get what they want.
...

Agree with that somewhat.

There are rational people here but I get the impression there's a lot of earthy emotion in people's reactions and this is what drives their actual behaviour.  It's all reactionary and there's no strategy and tactics in disputes.     Some of them explode and want to fight immediately and others just clam up and seethe quietly while plotting and worse, exacting revenge.   If they were somewhere else, it could end in a shoot out.   Hard to know if it's huff and puff or real threats. 

In my own land dispute, I recognised flaws in my own limitations and style and we decided in the end (mainly by Mrs Fluffy) it was best to use a lawyer to deal with the other side as they are objective flak takers and are experts at maintaining decorum.   

In my own country, we don't waste time trying to get mediation, we just go straight to the law - it's a nuclear option.  That's best avoided around here. Some biscuits, palinka and coffee might be enough to resolve things.  I am sure at least half of it is related to language difficulties.

duplicate deleted

No, sorry to say it isn't related to language difficulties.
My husband speaks perfect Hungarian and still desn't get it with some people here.
Like when we were in the US 2 years back.
The dude upstairs hired a make shift crew to redo his flat.
Bunch of Bozo's.
Well when we were gone he had a water leak above our ceiling in the kitchen corner.
No one bothered to infrm us that he and the manager got together and had the house insurance cover his repairs. We had no clue there was any issues. I mean the management knows our e-mail address after all.
One day part of my ceiling came down, we called the manager and he said to take it up with the dude upstairs as the house insurance had already closed the case.
My husband wrote to have a written reocord of his response.
We asked the guy upstairs calm and easy to look at the damage his leak made.
He said call the manager, back and forth BS.
My husband is going to repair it himself but when is anyone guess.
We already have an action plan but getting to it is another thing!
Shouldn't be hard to do ourselves but just shows even with house insurance they screwed us over.
My husband is sure the 2 of them did a dirty deal and got the plumber in on it. The upstairs guy got a free repair, the manager and plumber scammed the house. We were left holding the bag.
I dislike them all but no fear they will get theirs sooner or later, always happens to scum in the end.
We wrote the upstairs neighbor a physical letter but he never answered it, he is selling his flat and if need be I will infrom the new owners and perhaps even the next dr neighbor as the ceiling area is close to our common wall, let her deal with it,she seems very aggressive and he upstairs is not all that bright, I'd love a seat to that side show, we are not overly upset about it just nice to know how untrustworthy everyone is.For sure they had never come asking to borrow a cup of sugar!
I do have a few choice words for the dude upstairs but I don't make it a point to find him, if I run into him by chance he will get an ear full.
My husband is far too kind, really he is.He says our whole flat needs work so no biggie, the idea though makes my blood boil, so rude and selfish how these neighbors are. I know you are suppose to love your neighbors but I don't think even Jesus had these clowns in mind when he said that!

Arch4291 wrote:

The problem is the next month rent is due tomorrow, I don't want to keep paying rent for an apartment we may not move into. We emailed last night and no reply as yet.

Arch4291 wrote:

So I do t really see why they have a problem with it. We have emailed for clarification and waiting on the reply.

Have you considered there is no real problem. Simply you are being scammed?

The fact the landlord called you, so nothing is in writing, and did so just before the rent due date does sound to me as kind of a setup. If you do not pay the rent, the landlord can claim you defaulted on the contract, and your payments and deposits will be forfeit. And you have no proof of a "phone call". I would be surprised if you receive any written clarification from the landlord before your rent is past due.

But even if you do, that may not matter.

You also need to consider the legal system here does not work in all the ways you may expect in the UK.  And I do not simply mean it is slow. Legal arguments that may win in the UK may fail here. For example, as atomheart already stated, there is no real legal justification of such statements by the landlord, but in a court of law, the judge may say you should have known that, and if you fail to pay rent you then may be declared to be the "offending party" in breaking the contract, not the landlord (even if he put his issue into writing), because you should have known better, and kept paying to retain your rights till the court could decide. I know it may not make sense to an English mind use to English law, but this is Hungary, not England. Slightly different legal maneuvers are needed here.

So, as atomheart suggested, you really need some professional legal advice. Maybe this link from the local services section for expats can give you some leads to legal advisors:

https://www.expat.com/en/business/europ … s/lawyers/

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

No, sorry to say it isn't related to language difficulties.
My husband speaks perfect Hungarian and still desn't get it with some people here.
Like when we were in the US 2 years back.
The dude upstairs hired a make shift crew to redo his flat.
Bunch of Bozo's.
Well when we were gone he had a water leak above our ceiling in the kitchen corner.
No one bothered to inform us that he and the manager got together and had the house insurance cover his repairs. We had no clue there was any issues. I mean the management knows our e-mail address after all.
One day part of my ceiling came down, we called the manager and he said to take it up with the dude upstairs as the house insurance had already closed the case.
....
My husband is far too kind, really he is.He says our whole flat needs work so no biggie, the idea though makes my blood boil, so rude and selfish how these neighbors are. I know you are suppose to love your neighbors but I don't think even Jesus had these clowns in mind when he said that!

Oh yes, that's a possible scenario.  Just plain up to no good. 

Insurance claims, especially for cars, are perfect for scamming.  Getting a car fixed in ways unrelated to the original claim is not very unusual.  It's a bit like the whiplash injury.  Hard to prove the damage but worthwhile claiming with backup from "respected" medical professionals or for cars, repairers.

I'd have thought your ceiling issue shouldn't be closed by the insurance company as they should have inspected below and to the sides and consulted with all the owners.  Maybe open another claim saying the previous one was closed erroneously?  Or perhaps too late.

Mentioning Jesus made me think of that old sign about credit - "In God we trust, everyone else pays cash".   

***

Thank you all for your replies. I would just like to update. The landlord emailed us last night and was quite rude about us wanting to take children to the apartment. As the contract doesn't mention anything about children we asked one of our friends in Hungary who is a legal executive to email on our behalf. At this point all we wanted was our deposit back as we do not want to rent from this person. he Has today persuaded them to end the contract and give us our deposit back. We have lost two months rent because of this now.

Our search goes on for a suitable apartment in or around Keszthely,

Arch4291 wrote:

Thank you all for your replies. I would just like to update. The landlord emailed us last night and was quite rude about us wanting to take children to the apartment. As the contract doesn't mention anything about children we asked one of our friends in Hungary who is a legal executive to email on our behalf. At this point all we wanted was our deposit back as we do not want to rent from this person. he Has today persuaded them to end the contract and give us our deposit back. We have lost two months rent because of this now.

Our search goes on for a suitable apartment in or around Keszthely,

Best decision, cut your losses. Sorry, you have lost 2 months rest. But if the landlord is like this now they could be troublesome in the future.

I agree, I would rather lose 2 month rent and move on, live and learn....

Arch4291 wrote:

I agree, I would rather lose 2 month rent and move on, live and learn....

Probably the best outcome you could expect.  Hopefully not too much of a loss for you.  Could have been worse. 

Landlords here are quite unreliable in my mind but for odd reasons.   

But I had a good one here back in the 1990s - he was a Hungarian engineer and lived in Vienna. We were pretty friendly and collaborative.   

Another one was Austrian and lived in the Hungarian area in Austria so spoke Hungarian and German.  Owned a business in a shopping mall in Vienna so was loaded.   He was married to a Hungarian and ended up fighting with his soon to be ex-wife and our apartment was joint property they were squabbling over.    We felt we'd had enough of all those shenanigans and got out of there!

We're out of all that now as we own our house.

Arch4291 wrote:

Thank you all for your replies. I would just like to update. The landlord emailed us last night and was quite rude about us wanting to take children to the apartment. As the contract doesn't mention anything about children we asked one of our friends in Hungary who is a legal executive to email on our behalf. At this point all we wanted was our deposit back as we do not want to rent from this person. he Has today persuaded them to end the contract and give us our deposit back. We have lost two months rent because of this now.

Our search goes on for a suitable apartment in or around Keszthely,

So the check is in the mail?
Sorry couldn't resist writing that.
Hope they are serious.and are not playing more games with you.
Keszthely is a nice area, best of luck finding a nice place for a new life.