Question regarding tiny house

Hello,
my husband and I would like to purchase a large property in Hungary (a building plot) and live in a tiny house. Is a building permit required or is it not necessary since it's a tiny house?
Any help regarding this is greatly appreciated.

Best regards
Nicki
-@xxNickixx

Yes, I think you do.  Generally, if a building has a roof (even if no sides), it needs permission. We have that problem.  I'm considering building a car port and it will probably need permission and we will exceed the built in area.

You might get away with it if it's a caravan/mobile home (i.e. frame on wheels) - not sure about that.

BTW, if you have outbuildings over 10 years old built illegally or without permission, you don't need permission to change things about. We have an old brick built shed we're planning to modernise into a all year workshop. We'll have to replace the roof (incl. beams). It already has electricity.  We've just brought sewage and water to the building - we didn't need permission to do that. To actually use it as acommodation, we'd need permission.

I've been looking at these modular houses recently (click here).  I'm not connected with the company, just happened to see a news article about the rebuilding in Ukraine and looked up the details. At $18K for 27m2 excluding base, it seems rather cheap.  I was thinking of using these for a plot next to Balaton.  I've also been through the idea of building using pre-constructed shipping containers but it seems much harder than I thought.

You might get away with it if it's a caravan/mobile home (i.e. frame on wheels) - not sure about that.


-@fluffy2560

Yep because its not a permanent structure.

You might get away with it if it's a caravan/mobile home (i.e. frame on wheels) - not sure about that.


-@fluffy2560

Yep because its not a permanent structure.
-@SimCityAT

I think it's like that in a few countries.  Just because it's got wheels, it doesn't mean it'll be possible to tow it of course.  I've been watching some YouTube videos on tiny houses and they are quite informative. There's a couple on YT with a series on setting up some glamping and tiny houses in Wales.

I'd like to knock the Balaton house down and replace it but there are so many owners, we'll never be able to get an agreement with Mrs F's relatives.  They all have some agenda and as the relatives die off, inheritance kicks in and the owners are multiplying slowly.

The only thing we can do is buy our own land and put our own tiny/kit/container/trailer type house on it.  Our problem will be the cost.  The current house is literally 30m from the water. It's extremely desirable as a piece of land but the house needs condemning. I say that every year.

You might get away with it if it's a caravan/mobile home (i.e. frame on wheels) - not sure about that.


-@fluffy2560

Yep because its not a permanent structure.
-@SimCityAT

I think it's like that in a few countries. Just because it's got wheels, it doesn't mean it'll be possible to tow it of course. I've been watching some YouTube videos on tiny houses and they are quite informative. There's a couple on YT with a series on setting up some glamping and tiny houses in Wales.

I'd like to knock the Balaton house down and replace it but there are so many owners, we'll never be able to get an agreement with Mrs F's relatives. They all have some agenda and as the relatives die off, inheritance kicks in and the owners are multiplying slowly.

The only thing we can do is buy our own land and put our own tiny/kit/container/trailer type house on it. Our problem will be the cost. The current house is literally 30m from the water. It's extremely desirable as a piece of land but the house needs condemning. I say that every year.
-@fluffy2560

Is there space next to it have a small cabin?

Many thanks for the fast reply.

We've heard many different opinions so far and all are different from each other. Some say that a permit is not needed for a tiny house on wheels as long as it's not a "non-moveable house" and others say, that you definitely need a permit if you intend on living in it full time (doesn't matter how it is built and if it's on wheels or not). Isn't there a law that you can look up to be on the safe side? I haven't found anything yet unfortunately.

We really don't want to buy a property, build something, settle down and then be told that we have to tear it down.

@xxNickixx If you know the place where you're interested in moving to, then perhaps ask at the town hall? There could be different rules in place for other areas in Hungary. Sorry, I am no expert in building regulations.

Is there space next to it have a small cabin?
-@SimCityAT

It's a good question. But the answer is not really, the land is not wide enough but it's quite long which is a problem somewhat.  There's a house next door on one side and there's a building line we cannot really go pas. To keep it within the building line, and have enough space, we'd have to knock the existing building down to keep in sync with the neighbours.

The existing owners are such an argumentative bunch typical of Hungary, it's going to be a problem for a long time.  More time than we care to wait. Some of the owners don't have kids so it's hard to know who will inherit their parts. 

@fluffy2560 Buy a caravan?

@SimCityAT We don't exactly know where we'd be moving to. There are a few places that are interesting to us. We've already written to some town halls but never received a reply

We can't call since we don't know the language yet.

@fluffy2560 Buy a caravan?
-@SimCityAT

If we put it there, they'd be arguing about that.  I was thinking of buying a sailing boat at one point but no-one would let me store it here. Caravan would have no chance.

@SimCityAT We don't exactly know where we'd be moving to. There are a few places that are interesting to us. We've already written to some town halls but never received a reply
We can't call since we don't know the language yet.
-@xxNickixx

You won't get any replies from anyone official in Hungary by writing to them in English. 

They usually want to speak to someone in Hungarian or possibly you might get away with German.

You'd get the answer in 2 minutes in Hungarian. I suggest getting an interpreter for ad-hoc assistance.

Most of us inhabiting this forum have HU spouses so we can get them to do all those discussions.  Without them, life in the bureaucracy here would be almost impossible.  We do come across some English speakers sometimes but they are rather rare.

You might get away with it if it's a caravan/mobile home (i.e. frame on wheels) - not sure about that.


-@fluffy2560

Yep because its not a permanent structure.
-@SimCityAT

In Portugal it works like that. If it has wheels and can be (theoretically moved) it is all fine. But ... I am aware that this doesn't help you when in Hungary.

Many thanks for the fast reply.
We've heard many different opinions so far and all are different from each other. Some say that a permit is not needed for a tiny house on wheels as long as it's not a "non-moveable house" and others say, that you definitely need a permit if you intend on living in it full time (doesn't matter how it is built and if it's on wheels or not). Isn't there a law that you can look up to be on the safe side? I haven't found anything yet unfortunately.
We really don't want to buy a property, build something, settle down and then be told that we have to tear it down.
-@xxNickixx

Yes, that could be true if the existing property is a weekend house.

BTW, I urge caution on buying land without all utilities (gas-optional, electricity, water-not a well, sewerage, phone-optional) already on it.

Estate agents will lie through their teeth to get a sale. You have to know everything is there. Next door utilities or in the street is not good enough.

In my opinion, only buy a property with an existing house on with utilities even if it's in terrible condition and you will demolish it.  Water is often the worst problem.  You cannot rely on getting it from your neighbour.  They may simply say no or demand a huge amount.

There are restrictions on land use for agricultural purposes. Usually you cannot build in more than 3% on agricultural land. Other land may be zoned 20, 25, 40% etc.

The other thing is to have the boundaries professionally surveyed. The land registry records are incomplete and sometimes unreliable

@xxNickixx Can be very much a conceptual approach, however in Hungary (in my view) you can live VERY comfortably . Tiny house in Hungary , I am sure it can be arranged. HOWEVER why not a comfortable house with a massive garden and take care.

My property has sold, but why not have a big garden and take care. (Just as an example)

christof001 at youtube.

I left to move to Turkey, but Hungary (to live) remains a great country.

Tiny house (decadent in my view), more importantly your garden and caring thereof/

You can die, for me not problem, a tiny house in Hungary it does not fit.

@SimCityAT We don't exactly know where we'd be moving to. There are a few places that are interesting to us. We've already written to some town halls but never received a reply
We can't call since we don't know the language yet.
-@xxNickixx

Why choose Hungary then? Pretty much any other country in Europe will have more people who speak English than in rural Hungary.

As far as I know you need a permit to build anything, even a garage or carport.

My in-laws built a small one room house for the weekends on their land in Erd.

They were in the process of building a larger house on the land at the same time.

They needed permits for both homes.

Later they tore down the smaller home.

Every step of the way they had to contact a contractor who inspected everything and signed off before they were allowed to continue building.

I don't know about a caravan on the land, I am betting though those are also not exactly legal here and you might run into issues.

Laws are changing all the time here, I've heard they are even taxing peple now on having a private well on their land.

I suppose you could go into a land management office in the district you wish to purchase in and try to find some answers?

There are allot of rules and laws here that might just surprise you in the end.

Everything from utility co.owning the meters inside you home and charging you to replace them. Legally they own the meters but you have to buy them and change at their will.

Why choose Hungary then? Pretty much any other country in Europe will have more people who speak English than in rural Hungary.
-@fidobsa

I agree with that.   Languages issues are far less of a problem in Croatia.  Hungary is something of an anomaly. I lived in Zagreb and Belgrade for a bit. Piece of cake.

I asked my husband about permits.

He said first you have to know if the land is even zoned for living on.

Some places are for other uses other then living on.

He helped build his parents house, his brothers house and his sisters.

First you must submit plans to the land management office for approval.

You can build yourself but at certain stages you must call out the building inspector to measure and look at your plans and make sure they are in keeping with what you submitted to be built.

Things like electric might need a professional to install.

Anytime there is money to be made you can be sure there is a law where they will charge.

In Hawaii many homes are what are called,"kit houses".

Prefab homes with numbers and slots to join up walls etc.

They are rather nice actually, we lived in a new one which was owner built in Hilo.

Of course they are popular in Hawaii because they are light and airy homes. Not too practical here with winter.

You still have to call out the building inspectors as you go at certain points in construction.

The electric must be done by a professional.

These kit homes are not super cheap though, they come with everything from kitchen sinks to toilets, flooring etc.

You order them from the factory showroom and pick your options before delivery.

They drop off materials as you go so not to overwhelm you with supplies all over.

Tiny houses as a principal can be recognized, BUT not in Hungary I would think, why spend money and buy a 20m2 home? (being practical is good, but if one likes to spend a life in such a space, please go ahead)

Hungary has so much space, having a tiny house might be even more expensive than a normal house, if the concern is environment just take care of a possible huge garden at the same (or in my view better price) of the property, if you feel 50m2 + is decadent this is fine, however in Hungary there are so many old people in a small property and need for cash (pensions are low). Rather than tiny just buy a SMALL property from an elderly local woman and make her happy (and make a good deal (good large land often))

People looking for tiny houses in Hungary, I just do not understand, what is wrong to buy a property which is small, but not tiny?? I am upset with the concept.

@xxNickixx as below, a tiny house as a concept in Hungary is not done, too expensive too difficult for the future, I am sick with tiny houses. how this work, privacy

A tiny house means to me less than 20m2 or not, but perhaps I misunderstood?

@xxNickixx as below, a tiny house as a concept in Hungary is not done, too expensive too difficult for the future, I am sick with tiny houses. how this work, privacy
A tiny house means to me less than 20m2 or not, but perhaps I misunderstood?
-@cdw057

Tiny houses are a fad in the USA and the UK because property is so expensive.

So people live in tiny houses in order to afford their own place.

It's not a thing in HU because houses (in the countryside) are not that expensive.

It's a bit like houses made out of shipping containers or pre-fabricated places.

I've looked this kind of thing before and it can work in Hungary if you find the right plot.

Shipping containers are bad in extremes of weather - freezing cold in winter and roasting in summer.  Unless of course, they are properly insulated.

@fluffy2560 Perhaps I was not clear with privacy remark, but if one is married living on 20m2 I think made me absolutely nuts.

@fluffy2560 Perhaps I was not clear with privacy remark, but if one is married living on 20m2 I think made me absolutely nuts.
-@cdw057

OK, I get your drift.

There are a lot of reasons not to get into the tiny house thing. People do live in motorhomes/caravans permanently etc but it's not ideal.

Los Angeles has a serious problem with housing and motorhomes - see this news report.

At the moment, I don't really see the point of a tiny home here unless a portable building is needed for speed in an emergency. Ordinary building materials here are expensive but the house made from them will last a very long time, be energy efficient and won't suffer from extremes of heat.

I'm slowly looking for a temporary building to put in my garden before I renovate my shed. I think I can get a flat pack building to store all my shed stuff in while workers rebuild the actual building. I've seen some builders using them but I don't know where they come from.

I'm slowly looking for a temporary building to put in my garden before I renovate my shed. I think I can get a flat pack building to store all my shed stuff in while workers rebuild the actual building. I've seen some builders using them but I don't know where they come from.
-@fluffy2560

Well, that at least sounds like you are going to stay for a good while in Hungary. After all, not such a bad place where people can afford real houses and don't have to resort to tiny houses.

I think that tiny houses (many need to have wheels) are just not suitable for long term living. I have seen a few of these in Portugal and I would definitely prefer my friends camping trailer to these houses.

I'm slowly looking for a temporary building to put in my garden before I renovate my shed. I think I can get a flat pack building to store all my shed stuff in while workers rebuild the actual building. I've seen some builders using them but I don't know where they come from.
-@fluffy2560
Well, that at least sounds like you are going to stay for a good while in Hungary. After all, not such a bad place where people can afford real houses and don't have to resort to tiny houses.

I think that tiny houses (many need to have wheels) are just not suitable for long term living. I have seen a few of these in Portugal and I would definitely prefer my friends camping trailer to these houses.
-@nz7521137

My shed renovations are more like an investment. It'll increase the value of my house way beyond the cost of the renovations.

Compared to some housing markets, Hungary is cheap. But while you can get a house, it's best to actually have a reason to live here. As we've discussed elsewhere, it's becoming harder to justify being here at all. We're feeling a bit stuck here until the youngest one one finishes school (4 years to go approximately) and finally goes to Uni or college or whatever. Unfortunately there will be huge problems in September when school restarts. Then we'll have to decide - see this link if interested. We know a lot of teachers and nearly all of them want to give up the job.

One thing for sure as an expat you will be massively overcharged by builders, I like a simple life and buy a finished second hand to your liking, we did in Hungary and so in Turkey, easy, not real hassle (a bit)

We lived comfortably in our house in Hungary for 7 years and sold it with a VERY nice profit. (apologies a bit of capitalist).

We are not rich at all, but when there is a property you have to take it.

I do not know the budget, but we bought the attached/below for EUR 175 K

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwUnjoVtOvI&t=3s

284m2 quite modern and 3500 m2 of land, a few repairs over the years, max EUR 20 K

In my view if you can pay builders and be ripped off, you can also buy a proper property. Even if budget is tight, mortgage is probably cheaper than hiring builders (and more convenient)

If you come to Hungary out of deperation (sorry probably not country to come (becomes expensive)

Just a few countries left with very acceptable in terms of cost of living. We moved to Turkey but even in EUR getting expensive, Sri Lanka might be an option and so is South Africa, but expats are getting ripped off anywhere (which is fine and acceptable but ...)

One thing for sure as an expat you will be massively overcharged by builders, I like a simple life and buy a finished second hand to your liking, we did in Hungary and so in Turkey, easy, not real hassle (a bit).....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwUnjoVtOvI&t=3s

284m2 quite modern and 3500 m2 of land, a few repairs over the years, max EUR 20 K

In my view if you can pay builders and be ripped off, you can also buy a proper property. Even if budget is tight, mortgage is probably cheaper than hiring builders (and more convenient)

If you come to Hungary out of desperation (sorry probably not country to come (becomes expensive)
Just a few countries left with very acceptable in terms of cost of living. We moved to Turkey but even in EUR getting expensive, Sri Lanka might be an option and so is South Africa, but expats are getting ripped off anywhere (which is fine and acceptable but ...)
-@cdw057

That's some garden. you had  Great for the dogs but maintaining it would almost be a full time job.  I reckon you'd a mini tractor to cut the grass.  And those fruit trees would need spraying every year.  But you could make your own palinka so there's an upside.  The extensive trees there could have been replaced with saleable Christmas trees.  Never mind, you live in Turkey now where there is no Christmas and too hot for Santa.

Yes, builders always the same. Open your mouth and the price goes up of course. It's an old story.

South Africa might be OK but you'll need to live in a compound, be armed and need your own water and electricity supplies. 

Sri Lanka is nice but completely unstable (not Somalia but well....economics are dire).

Tiny houses as a principal can be recognized, BUT not in Hungary I would think, why spend money and buy a 20m2 home?

A "tiny house" is sometimes defined as being less than 1000 sq ft (93 sq meters). But many can go down to 400 sq ft (37 sq m). Or smaller.

You may not want to live in such a space, but my wife and I do, quite happily. In Hungary. Where many old traditional rural houses are actually quite small (ours is about 70 sq m - which is still larger than some apartments :-) ).

So to each their own. It is good to respect others choice of life style and not judge.

That is, do consider respecting others world views and how to live, even if you personally do not "understand it"..... :-)

Peace.

SC

I asked my husband about permits.

-@Marilyn Tassy

Your husband is correct.

I have dealt with this in rural Hungary, and getting permits to do anyting, inclucing even parking a trailer/caravan is quite complex.

Each municipality is different. So one must go to their local government and wade throught the (Hungarian language) paperwork. To see if setting up any sort of structure is allowed and how it is allowed. Some local governments see no difference between a full brick and mortar building, a yurt, or a camper/trailer/caravan. But others might. So it can depend. But once one gets the permits... one is golden. One can do that forever. So start now before things get even more complicate.....

Hope this helps.

SC

Tiny houses are a fad in the USA and the UK because property is so expensive.

-@fluffy2560

Fad in the USA and UK only?

Interesting. Also do note it as a "fad" in many other countries. Inclusind Germany, where the OP if located..... Just saying.... :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny-hous … ted_States

As others have said, I would opt for land with an existing house, perhaps one needing renovation. You could start by making part of it habitable then gradually do the rest as time and money allows. A lot of people in my area do that, lots of houses are built to a basic standard of finish then the refinements can be obtained at a future date. My own place is bare brick but evidently was intended to be rendered. I could probably have had that done but will wait until I can afford exterior insulation.

Tiny houses are a fad in the USA and the UK because property is so expensive.

-@fluffy2560

Fad in the USA and UK only?

Interesting. Also do note it as a "fad" in many other countries. Inclusind Germany, where the OP if located..... Just saying.... :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny-hous … ted_States
-@Saint Coemgen

So many options everywhere. 

I was looking at Huf Houses once upon a time - German designs.  Romania has some kit houses.  Log cabins. 

I think there's one of those kit log cabins from Romania not that far away from my house.  I've cycled past it several times.

Perhaps UK and US just more visible where there's high demand for urban land and people have limited funds.

I suppose in larger countries like France, it's not much of an issue at all.

@fluffy2560 I am sorry to say, my wife took care of the vegetable garden and flowers, we were decadent, for trees and grass we had a good (but expensive) gardeners. Lets be honest in high season (spring, early summer) it is needed, if to pay EUR 50 it comes to perhaps EUR 400 per year, some tree cutting every few years (also EUR 200 per year I would say). We are not rich at all, but having own machine (I looked at the neighbours, always problems, things to repair (on the machine), and one thing I am sure I can not do things (at my age and condition) so effective as these guys.

Indeed very good for dogs, when we bought the property we said we will not try to get the price down, but we want a fence all away around (and they did).

No real problems with builders as it was almost finished and we could make conditions (the real estate agent helped in this (financial incentive for him by selling).

Going out yourself as a newbie in Hungary in my view will kill you financially.

On Other countries

South Africa is dangereous (apart from other issues) indeed and Sri Lanka is also at a difficult situation, but going against the trend has helped me.

But perhaps I just go back to Netherlands (however what I read is not encouraging)

We have no need to move at this stage, just looking.

Anyhow we do not need a gardener

@Saint Coemgen in my view 70 m2 is not a tiny house at all. Kitchen, bathroom, bedroom, ...

How can you say 70m2 tiny?

Tiny houses in Hungary is more a question of principle rather than anything else, all the hassle, bureaucracy. People are dying in Hungary (quite a bit) a very solid (but old)  house is I think easy to get (lower than going to a big project).

Typically very well built and isolated (admittedly no floor heating, gas is a question, and of course interior might be to your liking). However a big garden is possible I think,

After living there for a few years you will know people who can help you, anyhow when buying a property more then things to do yourself. (find a GP, hospital, supermarket, vet, neighbours (important!!), clubs (football, chess, singing, knitting, .. does not really matter but they will welcome you), public transport, local arrangements with swimming pools.

Took us I think almost a year to get used to things, but once knowing it is all very fine (and saves you 100s of EUR per year).

Conclusion as a newbie you are a victim and be careful not to be victimized.

You should research the crime reports in an area as well.

Some villages are full of people with no jobs that are desperate.

They can make life so difficult that you might just leave it all behind and never look back.

Don't be fooled by low prices, there's a resaon the property is priced to sell.

My husband worked in Ca. with an older man who decided to move back to Hungary with his wife and daughteer.

They were an older couple and their girl was a late born baby of age 12.

They moved everything to HU from Ca. even brought a nice new car.

The looked like the richest people in the village.

Life became so difficult for them that they sold as quickly as they could and returned to the US. Think their adventure was less then 2 years.

Their daughter took the brunt of the trouble at school. Teasing none stop by poorer children.

Same thing happened to another family were knew from Las Vegas.

This was I'd say 10-12 years ago.

My husband worked with the man as taxi drivers in Vegas.

The man was nicea Gypsy guy who's family in Hungary lived in the 8th district. ( We even visited his mother to give her a gift from him, super sweet lady)

His wife was Gypsy too.

They sold their home in Vegas and shipped everyhting over to HU.

Lived in the 8th district to be close to his family and mom.

I'd say they were middle aged and their 2 boys were teenagers.

Even though their boys spoke Hungarian they had American accents.

They also wore better clothing and sports shoes then most of the kids in their new classes.

They were teased, taunted and hassled daily.

Got to the point where they family left Hungary and returned to Vegas.

We ran into them by chance inside a Walmart store where they told us about it all.

They were living in a mobile home and starting almost over again from zero.

These were people who had connections in Hungary, were from Hungary and spoke the language.

I also ran into a HU lady at the US embassy .

She moved her 2 or 3 children here with her to help her elderly parents. She was divorced in the US from a black man who had been in the US military.

Her children were mixed race.

She was with her 12 year old girl getting her a new passport.The girl said she was so happy to be leaving Hungary. She also had a miserable time in school with HU children teasing her.

The poor women was sad because her parents still needed her in their old age but she had to put her children first and leave.

IDK, just something to think about.

Even if you have no children , people will find something else to bother you about.

A 50 to 80 meter home is about the perfect size for 2 people I'd say. Unless you plan on entertaining allot.

My husband and I have a 50 meter flat, It's sometimes too small and other times perfect.

Wish we had more cash on hand when we bought, I'd of picked a slightly large place with a patio or garden.

The reason we bought a flat and not a home at the time was we felt a flat was more secure when it was left empty then a house would be.

Even so...Not sure it is all that secure after all.

We noticed here and there small items missing after leaving the keys with so called trusted ,"friends" over the years.

Can't really turst anyone it seems.

One time our next door neighbor came to talk with our friend with the keys to our flat.

When we returned all our wine was gone. The neighbor confessed he had taken it all, he said he didn't want it to go bad!! Like wine goes bad that fast?

Living out in a village where you don't speak the language or know anyone, seems more like a accident waiting to happen then a peaceful life.

Yes, you will defo be taken advantage of, that goes without saying but things could get even worst then being overcharged for items.

I think it's a good idea when I read about a large group of expats all moving to the same village. At least they hopefully will watch each others backs... Then again that could also lead to other issues.

I've heard stories about neighbors coming in when the owners are out and using their homes as their own. Even washing clothing because their washers are better etc.

If you report them or get upset, you might be asking for more trouble.

Don't forget, these people sometimes have lived in a village for generations and see you as nothing. Easy to take advantage of.

Even my husband started trippin' about leaving th keys with our friend. Our neighbor was in a local gang( they are everywhere) and perhaps tehy even used our flat for day trime prostitution? We noticed a small area on our wall that had a pencle drawing on it , like from a child? Very weird stuff and we had so called other trusted neighbor keeping an eye on the place. Can't trust a soul really.

I mentioned prostitution because  some wild stuff happens here that one really wouldn't expect in a decent looking building. We even now have a apt. which is very active in the summer months but not so active when winter comes. Various ladies half dressed standing outside smoking, sometimes a man or two can be seen but I don't keep an eye on what's going on. Better to mind my own bees wax.

@Marilyn Tassy Indeed crime could be an issue, having said that in our village we had not problem whatosever. The good thing (or bad) had we curious neighbours, but also we did not go for ANY holidays together (with my wife), me sometimes on a business trip, my wife sometimes on holidays, but not together (anyhow seeing each other 24/7 is also not so easy and a break can be useful).

On top we have lets say a very attentive GSD (I do not believe in cameras and alike) she will have given an incentive to stay away. (earlier also a Bouvier, but she passed away quite some years ago). Unless killing the GSD no chance to come on to the property.

Bottom line for a 7 year period no problem at all (not at home, but also not in Heviz or Keszthely (apart from the odd beggars)

Of course an appartment in a big city might be a different story.

@cdw057 And I have to say, Hungarian, German, Swedish, Austrian and even English neighbours were in general (not all) very lets say neighbourly. (again, could be good, but also bad, but curious good intending neigbours have their plus as well)

@cdw057 As you know I have left and in Turkey/Alanya  (in a complex), break ins are almost unheard off (cameras on the street everywhere, also in the building).

Yes, there can be some killings (but mostly family feunds) and almost always solved quickly, there are some traffic accidents (but cameras help), one example a few months ago, a guy killed a cat purposely with his car (not wise to do, caught within a day).