Border with Austria

SimCityAT wrote:

[img align=C]https://hungarytoday.hu/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/K_EPA20200317372.jpg[/url]

The border between Austria and Hungary is now open. You will need to have your passport and any residency paperwork with you.

Things are still restricted coming into Hungary.  Same stuff as UK plus the paperwork.  I think no-one is going to come here until the EU organises open borders again.

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The borders between Austria, Slovakia and Czech republic are supposed to fully open today for citizens of these countries (I assume residents as well), no time limit for the visit, no covid-test requirements, no quarantine...

atomheart wrote:

The borders between Austria, Slovakia and Czech republic are supposed to fully open today for citizens of these countries (I assume residents as well), no time limit for the visit, no covid-test requirements, no quarantine...

It's a bit complicated and not very consistent.  For me, it's the UK not doing well at all and the compulsory quarantine on entry for everyone is strange.  There are less cases in HU than in the UK. I can see it's possible coming back into HU to be self-isolating but the other way seems a bit extreme.

atomheart wrote:

The borders between Austria, Slovakia and Czech republic are supposed to fully open today for citizens of these countries (I assume residents as well), no time limit for the visit, no covid-test requirements, no quarantine...

Because non-citizens of those countries can carry diseases, but citizens can not? 

So a Spanish expat, living in say, Austria, for the past month (over the 14 day recommended isolation period, but less than getting residency) has delays at the boarder, but a Hungarian citizen living in Austria for the past month gets a free pass? Who is to say the Hungarian is free of disease and the Spanish expat is not? Politics... Pure and simple: Politics. Nothing to do with epidemiology.

klsallee wrote:

atomheart wrote:

The borders between Austria, Slovakia and Czech republic are supposed to fully open today for citizens of these countries (I assume residents as well), no time limit for the visit, no covid-test requirements, no quarantine...

Because non-citizens of those countries can carry diseases, but citizens can not? 

So a Spanish expat, living in say, Austria, for the past 6 months has delays at the boarder, but a Hungarian citizen living in Austria for the past 6 months gets a free pass? Who is to say the Hungarian is free of disease and the Spanish expat is not? Politics... Pure and simple: Politics. Nothing to do with epidemiology.

If the Spaniard living in Austria is resident in Austria will be able to enter Hungary without problems.

SimCityAT wrote:

If the Spaniard living in Austria is resident in Austria will be able to enter Hungary without problems.

I already noted that issue (EU residency is after 3 months, I erroneously thought it was only after 6 months), and edited my comment (before I noticed yours) to include non residents.

So, try to explain my updated comment regarding non-residents versus citizens/residents. Epidemiologically.

klsallee wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

If the Spaniard living in Austria is resident in Austria will be able to enter Hungary without problems.

I already noted that issue (EU residency is after 3 months, I erroneously thought it was only after 6 months), and edited my comment (before I noticed yours) to include non residents.

So, try to explain my updated comment regarding non-residents versus citizens/residents. Epidemiologically.

I think there is a difference. 

I've had issues in different countries and I am sure it's a bit different for locals.

For example in Spain I had a Paellaitis and here I thought I was suffering from Goulashism at one point. I also really became addicted to sausages with curry sauce in Germany - that was really the wurst.  I was thinking getting better was a hill to climb but eventually I got over it.

I'll get my coat.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

If the Spaniard living in Austria is resident in Austria will be able to enter Hungary without problems.

I already noted that issue (EU residency is after 3 months, I erroneously thought it was only after 6 months), and edited my comment (before I noticed yours) to include non residents.

So, try to explain my updated comment regarding non-residents versus citizens/residents. Epidemiologically.

I think there is a difference. 

I've had issues in different countries and I am sure it's a bit different for locals.

For example in Spain I had a Paellaitis and here I thought I was suffering from Goulashism at one point. I also really became addicted to sausages with curry sauce in Germany - that was really the wurst.  I was thinking getting better was a hill to climb but eventually I got over it.

I'll get my coat.

I am able to visit Hungary without any trouble, I just to need my residence papers and my passport.

SimCityAT wrote:

....
I am able to visit Hungary without any trouble, I just to need my residence papers and my passport.

Have you tried it?  What happened? Did they ask for anything?

fluffy2560 wrote:

I think there is a difference.

How? Epidemiologically? Versus a Spanish expat or a Hungarian expat in Austria for one month. Either may have equally come into contact with a virus in Austria. Why is one given a free pass and one not? Again, epidemiologically?

Side note: Apologies if I missed any attempt at sardonic humor. Mea culpa.

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

....
I am able to visit Hungary without any trouble, I just to need my residence papers and my passport.

Have you tried it?  What happened? Did they ask for anything?

I haven't personally, but I do know some Brits & Austrians that have without any trouble.

SimCityAT wrote:

I haven't personally, but I do know some Brits & Austrians that have without any trouble.

Even in the past few months, when no one was suppose to come from, say Germany, I have seen a German license plate parked at a house near me owned by German residents.

Thus the border might be rather porous, even during a "lock down" when no one is suppose to travel. So "knowing" someone who had no problems now really does not mean much. Apparently travel has not been as rigorously controlled as it should have been for quite a while. Since, by seeing a German license plate I kind of "know" someone who even did it when they where not suppose to. 

I was outside the Ikea store in Hengelo (NL) on the Dutch/German border when the border there was meant to be closed; you could be forgiven for thinking that it was free Ikea meatball day for all German passport holders; at least, judging from the number of German cars in the carpark.

klsallee wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

I haven't personally, but I do know some Brits & Austrians that have without any trouble.

Even in the past few months, when no one was suppose to come from, say Germany, I have seen a German license plate parked at a house near me owned by German residents.

Thus the border might be rather porous, even during a "lock down" when no one is suppose to travel. So "knowing" someone who had no problems now really does not mean much. Apparently travel has not been as rigorously controlled as it should have been for quite a while. Since, by seeing a German license plate I kind of "know" someone who even did it when they where not suppose to. 

I don't think you can believe  the car plates. 

There are a lot of SK (Slovak) cars here but they are all luxury models sold from Slovakia for use in Hungary,   People buy high end models through off the shelf companies and claim back VAT and maintenance costs though those arrangements etc.     It's a tax reduction scheme.   We see German and UK cars  here too but we know for sure they aren't Germans or British.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I don't think you can believe  the car plates.

You may have a point.

But in this case I do *know* the property owners are German residents.... So my point is still valid.

I was simply using the plates as a "just so" story element.

Side note: keeping plates from another country on a private car for extended periods when having a legal Hungarian primary place of residence is potentially illegal. Even if many try to get around that.... in many ways... It is still potentially illegal (in the spirit of the law, even if not in fact). FWIIW.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I don't think you can believe  the car plates.

You may have a point.

But in this case I do *know* the property owners are German residents.... So my point is still valid.

I was simply using the plates as a "just so" story element.

Side note: keeping plates from another country for extended periods when having a legal Hungarian primary place of residence is of course illegal. Even if many try to get around that.... in many ways... It is still illegal (in the spirit of the law, even if not in fact). FWIIW.

I believe one needs to read directive 83/182.  I think this is the one that is still valid. 

All comes down to residence but not necessary the concept of primary residence.

It's not actually illegal if for example it's a vehicle from your work and it's being used inter-EU and cross border.   That's how they get away with it here with SK plates.  The vehicle is owned by a company, not the individual.  Different rules.

It's theoretically illegal for EU citizens to drive non-EU vehicles in the EU.  This is a widely ignored bit of the law historically because some people drive from the Middle East back to Europe.  I've seen Dubai cars driving around Hungary and I saw a Hungarian car in Damascus once. 

Bit of a moot point (because of Brexit) but the UK doesn't have the concept of primary residence related to vehicles as there is no person registration system.   So anyone (literally) can register a UK vehicle even if they don't live there. All they need is an address.  There's no need to provide nationality or residential status either.  The only requirement is to keep it's yearly test up to date and buy insurance.  It's really common for British people with holiday homes living in Spain to keep UK vehicles in Spain to use during their holidays.  In theory they should register them but they don't usually bother.   They only have to bring them back to the UK once every 6 months.   Probably change on Brexit.

Around the mid 2000s, what one did not want to do if Greek is drive a your German registered Mercedes to Greece. There is a chance they would have seized it on the grounds of tax evasion EVEN IF the person driving was living and working in Germany.   Multiple news stories on that - worth a Google if interested.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I believe one needs to read directive 83/182.  I think this is the one that is still valid.

I think the the current online resource says it more simply:

As a general rule, in the EU you are required to register your car in the country where you have your normal residence.

And Hungarian law says you need to inspected and register your private cars eventually in Hungary if you live and declare residency in Hungary, as laid down by Hungarian law:

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/v … dex_en.htm

fluffy2560 wrote:

All comes down to residence but not necessary the concept of primary residence.

Good grief, not that straw man argument again.....

So many try to argue about the details or their  "residence" to get some benefit or another. But the tax men have solved that a long time ago. Thus, your residence (for car registration, taxes, etc), and your primary residence is well defined by both law and court decisions and they are almost always the same place (despite what one may think or claim otherwise -- exceptions include such things as students living at school, migrant workers, and similar but little else). Virtually little to no wiggle room there if you get hauled into a court as the court will declare your residence based on law and your own activities and rule accordingly. What you may believe is not really then relevant.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's not actually illegal if for example it's a vehicle from your work and it's being used inter-EU and cross border.   That's how they get away with it here with SK plates.  The vehicle is owned by a company, not the individual.  Different rules.

Which is potentially and basically a scam. Similar to "offshore" company ownership scams. Private people "claiming" the car is a company or business car. Just to avoid taxes or other issues. Thus I still say it was correct what I said: Illegal in the spirit of the law, even if not in fact.

Side note: I wrote "....keeping plates from another country on a private car for extended periods". Interesting your quote did not include "private"..... 

I'm curious about the practical side of these border closures. That bridge linking Esztergom with Sturovo, for example, the one you used to be able to freely walk across noting the immigration posts abandoned with Schengen. Are those posts now manned, on a "Papers please!" basis?

Likewise the train between Sopron and Vienna -- practically a local service. Do immigration guards now board the train as it crosses the border, if it's running at all?

klsallee wrote:

....
Good grief, not that straw man argument again.....

So many try to argue about the details or their  "residence" to get some benefit or another. But the tax men have solved that a long time ago. Thus, your residence (for car registration, taxes, etc), and your primary residence is well defined by both law and court decisions and they are almost always the same place (despite what one may think or claim otherwise -- exceptions include such things as students living at school, migrant workers, and similar but little else). Virtually little to no wiggle room there if you get hauled into a court as the court will declare your residence based on law and your own activities and rule accordingly. What you may believe is not really then relevant.

What straw man argument again?   

And actually it's not defined in law unless case law but unchallenged, it's defined in bilateral agreements.  The final decision is at the tax offices.  In Europe, it's dependent mainly on OECD tax rules.  If you read the vehicle Directive and then look at the OECD tax model, you will see they are pretty much the same.

OECD rules depends on a lot of factors - read the documentation or see below. For individuals,  It's where your habitual residence is, where your family ties are, how long you are in a particular place, where your economic interests are and where you have declared yourself.   

This might seem unusual to US citizens always being taxed in the USA but the situation is not the same elsewhere.  In my own country we even have different levels of (non-)residence - resident, ordinarily resident or non-resident.

All things being equal, it's up to the authorities to apply their interpretation of the rules as applied to your particular situation but it's not always clear cut.  There's no reason to go to court unless you want to challenge what they say.  If you don't want to challenge them it's done and dusted.  They have authority to rule anyway.   It's been like that for years.  Ask Boris Becker the tennis player.

Literally this is what it says in the 2017 OECD model tax agreement between the UK and Hungary (for example).  The last one is the "tie-breaker".   


.... an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then his status shall be determined as follows:

(a) he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the Contracting State in which he has a permanent home available to him; if he has a permanent home available to him in both States, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);

(b) if the Contracting State in which he has his centre of vital interests cannot be determined, or if he does not have a permanent home available to him in either State, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State in which he has an habitual abode;

(c) if he has an habitual abode in both Contracting States or in neither of them, he shall be deemed to be a resident only of the State of which he is a national;

(d) if he is a national of both Contracting States or of neither of them, the competent authorities of the Contracting States shall settle the question by mutual agreement.

But all that is moot, for companies, they are legal entities and are not natural persons so the above doesn't apply.  Therefore they have their own personality unrelated to the ownership.  I'm not promoting it for cars or as a scam or whatever.  It's like leasing - capital usage plus monthly costs offset on expenses.  Not saying its a good idea, just what is done.

BTW, you cannot usually tell if a vehicle is private or not by looking at the number plates.

zif wrote:

I'm curious about the practical side of these border closures. That bridge linking Esztergom with Sturovo, for example, the one you used to be able to freely walk across noting the immigration posts abandoned with Schengen. Are those posts now manned, on a "Papers please!" basis?

Likewise the train between Sopron and Vienna -- practically a local service. Do immigration guards now board the train as it crosses the border, if it's running at all?

According the FCO on unmanned border crossings to SK, you have to report yourself as follows:

"Entry and quarantine

From 10 June, it is no longer compulsory to enter state quarantine on arrival. You should bring with you a negative Covid-19 test and self-isolate on arrival. The exception to this is if you have spent the previous 14 days only in these 19 listed countries: Hungary, Austria, Czech Republic Germany, Lichtenstein, Switzerland, Slovenia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Greece, Cyprus, Malta, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Norway, Denmark and Iceland.

If you arrive from the UK or any other country which is not currently listed, or if you visited an unlisted country within the previous 14 days, you will need to be able to show to the police at the border a negative Covid-19 (RT-PCR) test no older than 96 hours in English, German, Czech or Slovak or translated into one of these languages. If there are no police controls at the border, you must present your negative test to the nearest regional Public Health Authority office without delay. You must then enter self-isolation and take another test after at least 5 days. Once tested negative again, you may end your self-isolation. People living in the same household as you must also enter self-isolation.

You may transit Slovakia in order to return to your country of residence without the need for a negative Covid-19 test or entering self-isolation if your transit is completed within eight hours."

I think that self-isolation thing will be widely ignored for cross border commuters.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I don't think you can believe  the car plates.

You may have a point.

But in this case I do *know* the property owners are German residents.... So my point is still valid.

I was simply using the plates as a "just so" story element.

Side note: keeping plates from another country on a private car for extended periods when having a legal Hungarian primary place of residence is potentially illegal. Even if many try to get around that.... in many ways... It is still potentially illegal (in the spirit of the law, even if not in fact). FWIIW.

True but for a few years we had a neighbor in one of the buildings near us who had German plates on his car( saw the dude once, was a older German man)Some people are rule breakers, now come to think of it, the car is long gone, maybe the guy passed away or got rid of the old car? Interesting.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I don't think you can believe  the car plates.

You may have a point.

But in this case I do *know* the property owners are German residents.... So my point is still valid.

I was simply using the plates as a "just so" story element.

Side note: keeping plates from another country on a private car for extended periods when having a legal Hungarian primary place of residence is potentially illegal. Even if many try to get around that.... in many ways... It is still potentially illegal (in the spirit of the law, even if not in fact). FWIIW.

True but for a few years we had a neighbor in one of the buildings near us who had German plates on his car( saw the dude once, was a older German man)Some people are rule breakers, now come to think of it, the car is long gone, maybe the guy passed away or got rid of the old car? Interesting.

Our tenant has SK plates which was not allowed until she pissed our neighbour off and was reported to the police, she got a nice fine and a warning.

SimCityAT wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

klsallee wrote:

You may have a point.

But in this case I do *know* the property owners are German residents.... So my point is still valid.

I was simply using the plates as a "just so" story element.

Side note: keeping plates from another country on a private car for extended periods when having a legal Hungarian primary place of residence is potentially illegal. Even if many try to get around that.... in many ways... It is still potentially illegal (in the spirit of the law, even if not in fact). FWIIW.

True but for a few years we had a neighbor in one of the buildings near us who had German plates on his car( saw the dude once, was a older German man)Some people are rule breakers, now come to think of it, the car is long gone, maybe the guy passed away or got rid of the old car? Interesting.

Our tenant has SK plates which was not allowed until she pissed our neighbour off and was reported to the police, she got a nice fine and a warning.

Oh, if that was in Austria, I am not surprised.  Land of the twitchy curtains.  Mrs Fluffy said that she thought they were better than that in Austria because twitchy curtains are a serious problem here.

I think in some ways, it's not bad for security if that's what it's all about but I hate to say it, people here might report you to the police here as well as in Austria for being black or gay or fat or thin or differently dressed or "of Jewish appearance" or listening to reggae music or just being plain foreign looking.

My Austrian neighbour wanted us reported because we had dumped some cat litter in our "Rest" trash.  He said it was concrete.  My other more friendly neighbour unbeknownst to me had put him straight.  Of course the question arose was why he  was looking in our rubbish anyway?!

fluffy2560 wrote:

SimCityAT wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

True but for a few years we had a neighbor in one of the buildings near us who had German plates on his car( saw the dude once, was a older German man)Some people are rule breakers, now come to think of it, the car is long gone, maybe the guy passed away or got rid of the old car? Interesting.

Our tenant has SK plates which was not allowed until she pissed our neighbour off and was reported to the police, she got a nice fine and a warning.

Oh, if that was in Austria, I am not surprised.  Land of the twitchy curtains.  Mrs Fluffy said that she thought they were better than that in Austria because twitchy curtains are a serious problem here.

I think in some ways, it's not bad for security if that's what it's all about but I hate to say it, people here might report you to the police here as well as in Austria for being black or gay or fat or thin or differently dressed or "of Jewish appearance" or listening to reggae music or just being plain foreign looking.

My Austrian neighbour wanted us reported because we had dumped some cat litter in our "Rest" trash.  He said it was concrete.  My other more friendly neighbour unbeknownst to me had put him straight.  Of course the question arose was why he  was looking in our rubbish anyway?!

Slightly going off topic..... But if it was my car with British plates I am sure he [Wlater / neighbour] would have done anything. [Leyna / tenant] was a complete b^tch also the only person that was barred from every drinking hole in our town with her boyfriend.

In 2000 we drove our Audi all over Hungary with US Nevada plates on it and no one ever stopped us.
Times have changed I guess.
We had to pay more for monthly insurance because of the foreign  plates but it was in the holiday budget to do so.
Not really worth it for us now to try that again.
best to have the right plates if you are living in a country full time I'd think.
Twitchy curtains, that's a funny way to put it, had those in Erd on our first visit to Hungary.
I would workout outdoors and the neighbor ladies would lose their minds, what the heck is she doing over there jumping around?
Funny now, I see actual joggers and skaters in Hungary.
My husband used to say people thought I was crazy because I was wasting energy, better to save that energy up for working.
Very disturbing to know your neighbors are going through your trash, what weird busy body people.
Like you are throwing away gov. secrets or something.
In our buidling in the lobby people place out some odd things, guess they do not have the heart to throw them away but to allow someone else to pick up their used treasures.
Sort of makes me mad after weeks of looking at a old electric hot water heater just sitting on the ground waiting for it's new owner to plug it in.
Old chairs ,and broken suitcases waiting for a pick up.
Don't think the city toss out day is anytime soon either.
I admit last week as we passed downstairs we found a almost brand new, barely used pressure cooker. I was about to buy one, found one on sale in a household shop, we were going to buy it on our walk on a whim but didn't have enough cash on us, was going to go back and buy it but presto, the toss out fairy came to our aid!
Not to cook with but to distill water with, just need to purchase a long copper pipe and shape it for brewing distilled water with.
Score!!

"Twitchy curtains, that's a funny way to put it . . ."

Especially in England, apparently, the curtain-twitcher is a staple inhabitant of the neighbourhood: every time you go out or come in, you can catch a curtain twitching someplace as a nosey neighbour checks up on you.

Run "curtain twitcher" on Google Images and you'll get the picture.

zif wrote:

"Twitchy curtains, that's a funny way to put it . . ."

Especially in England, apparently, the curtain-twitcher is a staple inhabitant of the neighbourhood: every time you go out or come in, you can catch a curtain twitching someplace as a nosey neighbour checks up on you.

Run "curtain twitcher" on Google Images and you'll get the picture.

To be a professional you need to stand in the dark, away from the window with the lights off preferably with outside street lighting and with thin net curtains!

Maybe in the USA they'd be "drapes twitchers".