UK Atheist marrying Jordanian Muslim Man

In Islam, any children born to a Muslim man are automatically Muslim regardless of where you get married.
Any legal marriage will be seen as legal as far as immigration goes, but his family sound like they want a Muslim ceremony.  No big deal either way as far as practical like goes, but happy smiling in-laws are always a good idea.
The difference is where you live and how he sees any possible kids' future education. Islam runs far deeper than the UK version of Christianity, so it would be wise to discuss the future carefully.

Thanks Fred.

He wants the marriage to be recognised in Jordan for his family sake. But he wouldn't raise children as Muslim, just would be Muslim legally on paper, which seems wrong to me to label someone as something they are not. If you believe in Islam then I understand, but he does not. Is there no way our marriage could be legally recognised in Jordan if we don't get married in Jordan. He is worried that means that we will lose our ties with his family legally if we don't register as married in Jordan.

Like Fred said, no matter which nationality you have, the children becomes automatically Muslim when the father is a Muslim. It doesn't make any difference if he's a practicing one. Same where you get married.
If you decide to marry elsewhere, you still able to register your marriage and your children in Jordan. Your children will be Jordanian by birth. I have no idea of the UK accept dual citizenship.

Thanks Primadonna!

Religious law doesn't apply in the UK. So if we Marry here and have children they would not be muslim. However, if we register the children in Jordan would they then have to be muslim if we are not married in Jordan at all?

Many thanks Primadonna!

Religious marriages does not apply either in the Netherlands where I am orginally from but I register my marriage and my youngest there too. You just need to have an English marriage and birth certificate from Jordan.
That applies as well for Jordan if you want it to be registered here.

Despite your plans of not having a religious marriage ceremony, your future children will be considered as Muslim. This is the Islamic law and the Jordanian law too. It doesn't matter if you raise them in an Islamic way or not.

Thanks Primadonna.

So if we have a birth certificate from Jordan does that have to have that they are muslim on it, even if they are born in the UK and therefore Atheist?

Exactly as others have said. 

Raising the kids - Entirely your decision as to what faith you want them to practice
On paper i.e. if they take Jordanian passports / birth certificates or marriage is registered in Jordan - They will always be considered as Muslim irrespective of where marriage took place.  No way around it

The absolute only way to be considered non-Muslim is for him to renounce his faith.  However, I would not advise that as in most Muslim countries, he will be considered as an apostate and his life could be in danger (at the very least, he will lose literally everything like inheritance rights etc).   Which I guess defeats the purpose of wanting to maintain family ties to Jordan.   The only time you hear of this happening is in the case of people who have ran away from, say, Saudi and gotten asylum in Canada - it is a one way ticket.

What your husband to be is asking is pretty standard for these type of marriages.  The family would want do a proper ceremony i.e. Islamic or otherwise in the home country so that they can still retain their social standing, under the pretense of a proper traditional wedding - which, otherwise, would not be the case.  Because, it is usually not the done deal for traditional families to accept marriages outside of the faith and to non-Arabs. In this part of the world, family is a huge deal and no one wants to break those ties so compromises are made to save face for everyone.  Not saying whether it is right or wrong - just stating the cultural norms.

Hi XTang,

Thank you. This is really helpful.

I don't mind if they are considered Muslim as long as that is not the case officially on paper. But it seems that if we register the children in Jordan that there is no way around it they would have to be Muslim on paper.

Thanks again for your help.

I fear this might be the end of a very loving relationship. Which will break both of our hearts. Something out of both of our control is preventing us from being together. Hopefully one day this law will change as there will be too many broken hearts out there in the world. Unfortunately my partner has already been in one relationship with a Christian girl before me which ended for the same reason. It is heartbreaking to see the pain it is causing him.

duffy72 wrote:

Thanks Primadonna.

So if we have a birth certificate from Jordan does that have to have that they are muslim on it, even if they are born in the UK and therefore Atheist?

It seems to me that you don't quite understand what it means to be born as a Muslim. No matter where you were born, live or married, it has no effect on the paternity bloodline: beside converting, children becomes automatically Muslim through the father because he is a Muslim. Whether only on paper or not.

Maybe it helps you to understand a bit better if I tell you that female Muslims are not able to marry a non Muslim ( mostly foreign) man, unless he convert. Why? The father gives the faith through his bloodline to his children.  And it's not important if he's only on paper a Muslim or he truly believes. Sounds hypocritical to me but this is the reality.

What more important is, and what is said by Xtang is that it have a huge impact on heritage: you can't inherit from your Muslim husband/ wife or children and vice versa if you have a different religion or no religion at all.

duffy72 wrote:

Hi XTang,

Thank you. This is really helpful.

I don't mind if they are considered Muslim as long as that is not the case officially on paper. But it seems that if we register the children in Jordan that there is no way around it they would have to be Muslim on paper.

Thanks again for your help.

I fear this might be the end of a very loving relationship. Which will break both of our hearts. Something out of both of our control is preventing us from being together. Hopefully one day this law will change as there will be too many broken hearts out there in the world. Unfortunately my partner has already been in one relationship with a Christian girl before me which ended for the same reason. It is heartbreaking to see the pain it is causing him.

No need to brake up: respect each other (non) believes and other differences is one of the keys for a good and healthy relationship.
There are many successful mixed marriages. It can be yours too but you have to work on it, both on a daily basis.

As PrimaDonna said and for me personally, this is a secondary consideration to a relationship.   

What you have to also understand is that in this part of the world, faith is law in a majority of the Muslim countries. Therefore it is not likely to change and especially because a lot of the really important laws e.g. rights of inheritance, custody etc are linked to it.

I know of many mixed marriages like this.  For example, a Swiss friend of mine married a Muslim girl.  He converted on paper, took an Islamic name (which was never put into any legal document or passport), the ceremony took place in her home country and then they left.  They never lived there after that.  But the kids from that marriage have a linkage to the home country and the mother's family - they are considered Muslims (born in Switzerland and have Swiss passports - never took home country passports and apply for visas.  But visas issued still state their religion as Muslim).  They are atheists like you and it doesn't matter to them.   What matters to them is being able to spend family vacations there and be part of a large extended loving family.  No one discusses religion or forces anything on them.  But if they hadn't done it this way, the girl would have been alienated from her family and they would have been forced to keep her away to comply with societal pressures.  So it's a case of live and let live - assuming that the relationship is more important to you than a personal principle.

I just don't know if there is a way around it. We can't find a way to compromise.

I don't want our children to be Muslim on paper as I feel like it would hold them back from opportunities to choose what they want to be when they are older and can decide for themselves. For example if they grow up and decide they want to be Buddhist then they would have to renounce their religion/Jordanian heritage which would potentially cause them huge problems as XTang described. As I said if my future husband felt strongly about Islam itself and it was important to him to raise Muslim children then I would understand, but he doesn't believe in it himself.

Thanks XTang. This is interesting.

It isn't about my personal preference. It is about the opportunities for my children. I put my children's future as the most important over my family. For example my father is Catholic and my mum Christian, I have been Christened, but I don't believe in it. So I wouldn't make my Children be anything they are not. I see an opportunity for us to not to have Muslim children if we have them in the UK, but I don't know what that means for the family ties. We certainly don't care about inheritance. The children having a relationship with the Jordanian family does matter to me.

As I said below. Later in life if my children want to become Buddhist then they can't as they are Muslim and would have to renounce their faith and as you have said, that would be a huge problem. I want them to be who they want to be and make their own choices in life.

duffy72 wrote:

I just don't know if there is a way around it. We can't find a way to compromise.

I don't want our children to be Muslim on paper as I feel like it would hold them back from opportunities to choose what they want to be when they are older and can decide for themselves. For example if they grow up and decide they want to be Buddhist then they would have to renounce their religion/Jordanian heritage which would potentially cause them huge problems as XTang described. As I said if my future husband felt strongly about Islam itself and it was important to him to raise Muslim children then I would understand, but he doesn't believe in it himself.

To be very correct: it is no ones any business if your children want to convert in a religion or their choice. CULTURE wise you can have huge problems if you do, RELIGION wise says something different: it's your own decision and you have to take the consequence in the hereafter. As it is with many actions and decisions.

And you have to think in a bigger way: YOU have problems with a religion on paper but it can have advantages for all of you. You and future husband might have no interest at all in heritage but maybe your children are. Maybe they want to study or live there, think how easy it will be to travel back and forth, to see their family, explore the country etc.

One advice: keep all the options open, you never know what happens in the future and it can benefit you later if you come in a situation you've never had think of it before.
It would certainly not harm you.

Understand the points but consider the following:

1) They are recognized as Muslims only in Jordan & similar countries.  In the UK and everywhere else it does not matter what their religion is
2) What faith they follow is entirely up to them.  No one will check or bother them to see if they are Muslims or Buddhists or whatever
3) Even if they are born in Jordan or have passports which say Muslim; what does it matter if they have British passports too?   and only use Jordanian passports as a second nationality.   UK allows for dual citizenship
4) Also, you were christened but you chose a path that suited you.  That event did not matter in which direction you went.   That would be the same for the children as well, no?  you didn't have to renounce either right?  you just stopped being christian.  That would be the case for the children as well as they would be British nationals and it doesn't matter in the UK.  Why would you want them to renounce in Jordan?  there is no point or no need for that

Hi XTang,

I just wanted to quiz you a bit more about this scenario that your Swedish friend and his wife did.

My partner and I discussed it last night. Would they still have a Jordanian Family book? Are they still recognised by Jordan as the woman's children. My partner is worried that if we do this that they wouldn't recognised as his children by the law in Jordan.

Any insight you have would really help.

Many thanks!

His wife wasn't from Jordan.  And the difference between you and them was that the guy was not Muslim.  So he converted on paper.

Your case is completely different.   So I don't understand which part is worrying for your partner?

Oh ok. Apologies, I misunderstood, I thought his wife was from Jordan.

So, if my partner and I get married in the UK and then get married in Jordan under Sharia law, but then come back to the UK to have children and register them in the UK as primary British citizens. Are we able to register them in the Jordanian Family book as Jordanian citizens and therefore Muslim, but then leave it till they are old enough to decide for themselves whether they would like to get a Jordanian passport? My partner is worried if we don't get them Jordanian passports that they would not be recognised as his family.

Hope that makes sense.

I don't know about Jordan laws but for most countries, children born to parents abroad are eligible to assume the nationality of the parents i.e. both parents.  There are some exceptions for some countries e.g. I believe for Sweden, the mother has to be Swedish.  You need to check the birth registration process for Jordanian nationals in the UK from the Embassy there.

Have him read through the below:

http://jordanembassy.org.uk/?page_id=2606

Most of the documents are in Arabic so I can't help but there is a section on applying for a family book.

Why should you marry twice?
If you marry in the UK you can register your marriage in Jordan. You need to bring your marriage certificate and birth certificate. In English and preferably in Arabic too by a licensed translator and stamp from the embassy. When you visit Jordan you bring the needed documents and register. You'll get your family book. When your kids born in the UK you can add them to the family book. Not by you of course but by the authorities.

XTang and Primadonna, thank you so so much for all your help and patience with me. I understand all our options now and my partner and I will decide what is the best route to take for us and our future children. Thank you again.

Ahlan wa sahlan.

Let us know what you have decide.
Take care and all the best.

Does it really matter what is said on a document!
If your relationship ends as a result of “terminology “, then it is not worth it. I am British and you know you can change your name, your gender as you wish. Let the children chose what they want to be when they grow up. The child will have a British passport because one of the parents is British.

Hi there,

I didn't think it did matter what was down on paper in Jordan, but have since realised it would actually matter quite a lot. As in order to register my children, we have to register our marriage under the Sharia law.

I didn't realise what marrying under Sharia law meant and have only realised this since having these conversations. As a feminist marrying under Sharia law actually goes against everything I believe in. It would really put myself at risk and in my opinion would put my children at risk. I want my children to grow up in a world where they know that men and women are equal and this is not the case under the sharia law. The Sharia law outweighs the British law and I would lose a lot of my rights.

If anyone knows of an alternative I would love to hear it. We both definitely want children but I just can't find a good solution. He wants them to be recognised as his children in Jordan, is there anyway to do this without registering ourselves under the Sharia law?

Thanks

If he Asthist; he will go your way and compromise. If both can’t compromise with the first obstacle ( as you think it is), better stop now. Life of full of obstacles.

It is better to marry in the UK and take British nationality for your children. They can then apply for dual nationality.

I'm Australian and reverted to Islam and married my Jordanian husband in Jordan. It was quite painful, a lot of red tape, running around and needed to be approved by bureaucrats and the judge. They may not even approve the marriage. Marrying in the UK will probably also involve a lot of bureaucratic red tape. Should you marry in his homeland it will be a religious ceremony as there are no civil ceremonies in Jordan.  A woman who married her Jordanian in Jordan said, you are better to get married in Seychelles or Greece, as of course these places are set up for people marrying from abroad.

To rest his mind at ease, your husband to be should contact someone in Jordan, maybe an Imam or Doctor of Law or Learned family acquaintance to clarify for him the rights of the children and where they will stand religiously should he marry outside of Jordan in a civil ceremony. A stamp on a piece of paper is not a stamp on the forehead. And like it or not if you choose to marry a Muslim, your children will be considered Muslim. But from what I have read what PrimaDonna and Xtang say about the children is correct.

However, the problem seems to be more a matter of will and worrying about what might happen. If your love is strong none of this should matter. You are supposedly wanting to marry this man but seem ready to give it all up and for what really? To prove a point? He is Muslim, practicing or otherwise and his religion, family and home ties run deeper than I think your average western person would be able to comprehend. He may show no obvious signs of being a practicing Muslim but nor is he willing to completely extricate himself from the religion and the family either. If you really love him, see a future with him then you need to accept him for what he is and the law of the land/Islam. Because I think personally if push comes to shove he will choose family and Islam over you or he will be miserable.

****

Just to make the idea clear for you:
Regarding marrying a muslim man even if he is a non practicing one his children are automatically considered muslim and their grandparents will try to influence their beliefs and attract them to islam.

Regarding civil laws, in jordan you can’t conceal or hide your religion, the state doesn’t recognize Atheism and will always assign you to your birth religion, in your case for example if you were born to a Jordanian father and you will have a statement in your paper of your religion, christianity or Islam or whatever, even after you reach adulthood you declared your self as an Atheist, the state doesn’t recognize your declaration and will still treat you according to your birth religion, although you can change your religion but you can’t have none.

Want my advice?
Your Fiancé is overplaying his hand, he can have a ceremonial wedding without the need to register it in the civil archives, your children can reject the Jordanian citizenship and just be British in that way they can stay away from all the Jordanian messed up system

Just thought I would give you all an update.

I've come a long way in my understanding of Islam and Jordan.

My husband and I married in Jordan on 1st January 2020. We had a religious ceremony, but wrote a tonne of conditions into our contract. For example, he cannot have other wives, I can divorce him, I can do a job of my choosing outside the home. etc. Whilst some of these are not actually enforced in Jordan, it seems like the Sharia law has lots of different extremities in different countries. So we decided to cover ourselves with it across all nations.

We will write a Will to layout what will happen with our assets if we were to die. Ensuring that only our children will benefit. My husband also wants to write a Will for what will happen to his body after he dies as he does not want a Muslim burial.

We will only get British passports for our children for now, until they are old enough to decide for themselves whether they would like to be recognised as Muslim. If they want to be then they can get their Jordanian passports.

We will not refer to our children as Muslim, or raise them as Muslim, or any other religion. We do not believe that they are Muslim despite the religion advising that it is the only way. It is a human right to decide for yourself what you recognise yourself to be and should not be forced on by anyone or anything. More and more people are advising that they are not Muslim despite their parents being Muslim. Freedom of choice is starting to prevail.

Congratulations. Thank you for the update.  I wish you all well.

Hello all,

I am hoping someone can help me. I have tried to understand online the Sharia Law and Civil Law and finding it all very confusing.

My boyfriend and I are looking to get married. I am an Atheist and on paper he is a Muslim, although he has never practiced or believes in Islam religion. We have discussed having children and he has told me that if we get married in Jordan then we must have muslim children. I have said but if we get married in the UK and have British passports that does not matter. However, he very strongly wants the family to be associated to his family on paper. To do this he said that we have to get married under Muslim Law. Is that correct?

Is there anyway on paper we can be associated with the Jordanian family but not have religious children?

Really appreciate any help anyone can give me.
-@duffy72

Hi. Yes your boyfriend is right: if you were to have children, they are to be Muslims automatically, so as to say. Religion is one thing, nationality is another.

Thanks Fred.

He wants the marriage to be recognised in Jordan for his family sake. But he wouldn't raise children as Muslim, just would be Muslim legally on paper, which seems wrong to me to label someone as something they are not. If you believe in Islam then I understand, but he does not. Is there no way our marriage could be legally recognised in Jordan if we don't get married in Jordan. He is worried that means that we will lose our ties with his family legally if we don't register as married in Jordan.
-@duffy72

Please allow me to say that this is an extremely hard decision to take. I do not mean to hurt you or irritate you. However, marrying someone who is not of your religion in this part of the world is 99% impossible. Thus imagine if a Muslim marries an Atheist.

Sorry for the above, I was only trying to explain what the society and culture are, here.

Good luck.

Hi XTang,

Thank you. This is really helpful.

I don't mind if they are considered Muslim as long as that is not the case officially on paper. But it seems that if we register the children in Jordan that there is no way around it they would have to be Muslim on paper.

Thanks again for your help.

I fear this might be the end of a very loving relationship. Which will break both of our hearts. Something out of both of our control is preventing us from being together. Hopefully one day this law will change as there will be too many broken hearts out there in the world. Unfortunately my partner has already been in one relationship with a Christian girl before me which ended for the same reason. It is heartbreaking to see the pain it is causing him.
-@duffy72

True, it must be heartbreaking, if the relationship were to end. I never approach a person who is not my religion. It's too complicated an issue. Nationality does not matter.

@duhaz77beatle whether he practices or believes or how much in denial he is about his religion are irrelevant. Deep down being Muslim and part of a Jordanian family perhaps a tribe are so intrinsically interwoven into his psyche that any peice of paper you find won't be worth a jot to him. You're looking for something that I doubt exists. Under Sharia law he can take your future children to visit the family in Jordan and never return with them again. This is a fact of that law. There's an old saying. When in doubt don't.