Moving from SA with SA husband and 3 kids with Dutch passports

Hi and welcome to the Forum.

You and your kids will have no problems in entering or living in Holland; just a quick point on education; it's compulsory in Holland up to age 18.  Kids are streamed into MBO, HAVO and VWO at age 12, so 2 have already missed it and 1 may well struggle, but at least has a chance.  The main requirement in the streaming process is that apart from academic ability, their ability in the Dutch language (written, spoken and reading) is assessed; if they are not at a Dutch native speaker level when assessed, they will be streamed MBO (no discussion) which may well mess up any chance they had of going to university - MBO is more aimed at manual workers, apprenticeships, the other 2 being the academic stream.  It is possible for exceptional students to move across, but it's not guaranteed, the teacher/school can block it.  International schools are extremely expensive, so much so that when we did what you are contemplating, we couldn't even consider it.

I don't think a Taal school is an option either for any under-18's, they have to be in fulltime education.  Our experience was that our kids picked up Dutch very quickly, but we spoke it at home before we moved back to Holland, so they weren't stressed by it.  As Afrikaans speakers, they will find things a bit easier, but as a language, Afrikaans is a mixture of Dutch, German, English and African tribal languages as they were spoken 200 years ago and the language has never developed as other modern languages have.  Nobody in Holland (except other South Africans) can speak it, although many will understand bits of it; it's mainly the South African accent that causes the issues.

For your husband - the Dutch Government department for this (the IND) has a website with all the details you need; this link will take you there.

Job searching from abroad is problematic; unless you have a unique skill that they are crying out for, with most agencies, unless you can start work tomorrow morning, they aren't interested in talking to you about specific positions until you are living in Holland; for the same reason, sending long-range, speculative CV's tend to end up in the bin.

If you have any further specific questions, please come back to me.

Hope this helps.

Cynic
Expat Team

I have not much to add as what Cynic already told but I would like to give you an extra advice: start now with Dutch language for your kids and husband.

Thanks so much for the incredibly quick response, Cynic!

The part about the kids and school is disappointing (and surprising) for me.  But thanks for warning us! Chloe (our oldest) is at one of the top schools in South Africa (with the best results), so - even if SA education doesn't have a great reputation - the education she's getting I'd say is very good!  She speaks Afrikaans well and is in the top stream, and is already practising Dutch with great excitement on Duolingo, as a start .  She would be mortified to be going in to a stream that doesn't allow her to move on to university.  So perhaps it's a case of either just biting the bullet and putting her into an international school (the one in Utrecht thank goodness looks like one of the most affordable ones around, even if it will seriously sting us financially) or getting her into the MBO stream and then hopefully getting her to "prove" herself, so that she can move over to one of the other two streams at a later stage.  Even if she finishes school a year later than we would have here, it may be worth it!  Then, as far as Dylan (our son who is just about to turn 10), I see that there is a bilingual school called Onder de Bogen in Utrecht.  I'll try to reach out to them and see what they say.  He is of course learning Afrikaans - so that will help a little to speed things up - but just the early days of it!  With our 14-year old (Julia), we will need to think about things.  Perhaps the same story as Chloe, although she isn't as strong academically.  I've been told that school fees at an international school are tax deductible.  Are you aware of that?

When I mentioned the Taal School I was just referring to for July and August of next year, while the kids are on holiday.  But possibly that's not an option either  . I think your advice about us speaking as much Dutch as possible while we're still in South Africa is an excellent one and the best we can do!

As far as work is concerned, I've been in touch with an amazing recruitment company that specialises in placing IT people from abroad, at a fairly wide range of companies.  Thank goodness!  They've seen my CV, have had a long conversation with me, and will keep things in a holding pattern until the time is right.  So I know the timing will be a very tricky thing, but hopefully Floris will be able to guide me there .

Thanks again, Cynic .

Hi again,

I'm not a tax expert, but I came across this link which may help answer your questions regarding tax reduction for school fees.  It seems to revolve around the 30% tax ruling for highly skilled migrants; I'd definitely recommend that you try and pursue that.

The Taal-school that you mentioned is a great idea and certainly an option (I did exactly that when I first moved to Holland); just Google something like "Talen Instituut" and the name of the town you are looking to live and you'll get some results.

Please come back if you have any further specific questions.

Hope this helps.

Cynic
Expat Team

Thanks again for your help, Cynic!  Really helpful .

By the way, the link for the language school in Utrecht is http://www.taalschoolutrecht.nl/.

Hi again.

I just checked your link; the website tells us it's a basisschool, which means up to 12 years only - so good for your youngest.  It may be worthwhile speaking to them for advice on the best path for the 2 elder kids as well - you can't be the first/only person with your situation.

Hope this helps.

Cynic
Expat Team

Hi Capetownkari,

I don't know exactly how it works for foreign non-Dutch speaking children (since I grew up in Holland), but I'm sure there will be schools that can offer your kids the right opportunities. Many schools offer a combination of the mbo-stream with havo and vwo, and in that case it's often easier to switch from one stream/level to another. And after graduating from one stream you can go on to the next and finish that in only two years (so from mbo to havo and from havo to vwo, which is required for university).
I can image the language will be a bit of an obstacle at first, but children learn fast! Maybe a private teacher just for the language will be helpful?
Since your oldest is already 16, it might be an option to consider international school for her; that would be only two more years until she could go to university and plenty of time for her to learn the language. Depending on the field of study, a lot of universities offer a lot of their courses in English.

Good luck with all your preparations!

Hi DeDiana

Thank you so much for your message, which is encouraging, as it suggests that there is a degree of flexibility around moving from one stream to another  .  And it's great to hear that there are universities that offer studies in English.

My main "fear" at the moment is that our goal of getting to the Netherlands in early July next year will not be possible, due to the long lead time that seems to be required for completing the entire process (as efficient as we may be on our own side). 

Does anyone know if it's true that at the time of application (as the Dutch passport holder and therefore the sponsor), I will need to be able to prove that I have a job offer of at least 12 months?  My concern about that is that if IND can take up to 90 days to process an application - and it'd really be best for me to get to the Netherlands with my husband and children with me - that I will struggle to find a company willing to wait for so long before I even start my job, because we have to wait for IND approval!

Thanks a ton.

Kari

As a South African ,married to a Dutch wife for 30 years, being over 70, the IND requirement was for me to remain outside The Netherlands, whilst my wife in The Netherlands applied for my MVV (also known as a the "Spousal re-unification permit"
Essential documents ( which you state you possess) are: Unabridged Birth & Marriage Certificates,  Apostiled at DIRCO.
Take Certified copies of the above as well as SA ID Book & SA Passport. Book an appointment at the Dutch Embassy (Pretoria or Cape Town ). Do NOT use the services of VFS visa company,as they cannot process a MVV application.
The passport validity period must be long to last some years ahead.  Getting a new SA passport can now be speedily applied for at certain banks.
There have been reports of passport applications at the SA Embassy in The Hague, running into delays,so it's best to avoid that route.
Expect to comply with the "Inburgerings proses"
If the SA passport holder can be employed by a Dutch company, things will be much easier.
Good luck.

Hi Kari,

I’ve also looked into this process, I’m also Dutch with a SA husband, both kids on dual passports.

I was informed by the IND that I would have to move to NL first and get a job with a contract at the minimum income level of around EUR1700 (which shouldn’t be a problem). When I have that contract, I can start applying for the MVV for my husband. However, at the time you start applying for the MVV, your husband needs to be in his home country.
So you can either go to NL by yourself and look for a job, set up a home etc..and leave kids and hubby in SA until you’re ready. Then the kids can come over but your husband will have to stay till the MVV comes through (if it comes through, he can be declined theoretically which you then can appeal). They say it takes a max of 90 days for the MVV to be processed. He has to pick up the MVV if it is granted in Pretoria. After that he can travel to NL.

The other option is that you all go together, your husband will need to get a Schengen visa that will allow him to stay 90 days I believe out of every year he has the visa for. You set up a home and start finding a job, school’s etc, and then when you get your contract, he will have to go back to SA until his MVV comes through.

If you have the means and flexibility, that scenario has the least amount of family separation time.

They certainly don’t make it easy.

What would be much easier is if your husband was able to find a job who was willing to organize a work visa for him. Then you don’t need to be separated and you can all go together. But it’s hard to find an employer willing to do that, but not impossible.

He will also need to do the NT2 exam, the Dutch proficiency exam. Start speaking Dutch at home is good advice. Also, if you look on www.marktplaats.nl you can find NT2 books your husband can start learning from or I’m sure there must be an online program.

Hope that helps.
Stephanie

Hi Stephanie

Thanks so much for your contribution and all the suggestions you gave; it really helps to speak to someone in a very similar position to us!  You are right that this process isn't made easy in any shape or form.   And certainly by far the best situation for us as a family is to remain together as much as possible.  Being split up for a while is so hard!

Alistair has already applied and paid to do the civic exam (frustrating that he has to fly up to Pretoria to do so, but that's life, I guess).  He is practising his Dutch very thoroughly! And we are still waiting for 2 of 5 unabridged certificates to arrive.

It does make sense for him to try to get a job before I do, because the chances of anyone offering me a job already in March (knowing I would only be able to start in August or so) are so incredibly slim!  But then - as you say - his potential list is also greatly filtered / reduced by the fact that almost no companies feel like the mission of organising one's work visa!

What are you feelings about putting kids into local schools, at the age they are?

Thanks so much!

Kari

Hi Capetownkari,

I (EU and SA passport holder) recently moved to The Netherlands from Cape Town with my wife (SA Passport) and 2 children (SA passport for my 12-year-old daughter and dual passport for my 4-year-old son) (4 and 12).

Our move was from an administration process kinda bumpy, but all in all rather smooth. We had a hiccup with the IND process with my Wife as her employer had advised her incorrectly as it turned out. But we managed to work through it with no major stress. We have been here since August and have both our children in International schools.

This is where I would like to share some insights regarding the school.

My initial plan was my daughter (12) would attend an international school. she is as smart as a button and is loving school and we recently had a parents meeting which she presented to us on her school experience to date and I could not have been prouder or happier with our choice and how she has responded. She has made friends and they already have enjoyed reciprocated sleepovers.

My plan for my son based on his age was that he go into a bilingual school and learn and be integrated into the Dutch way of life and culture as quickly as possible. I think I asked all the right questions and reviewed 4 bilingual schools with physical visits and interviews before deciding on the one he would attend. I, however, didn't ask the single most important question which was. How many English speaking children would be in his class, not just the school?

As it turned out he was the only English speaking pupil and all the others were Dutch, so he was alienated and became very unhappy over the following 2 months. We had numerous meetings with the Teachers and pushed him to learn Dutch and to initiate play with his classmates. It was, however, easier for the other 4-year-olds to just play with their Dutch mates. No one was mean to him or bullied him, he just had no interaction or engagement. Last month I bit the bullet and put him into an international school and he once again is loving going to school. He went to Reddam when we were in Cpt so was already familiar with a formal school day and has adapted well since the move.

So please ask the question, all the best with your plans. I do hope it goes smoothly.

Regards

Hi Kari,

Oh that’s interesting, please tell me the procedure for the exam your husband is doing?

Well, our kids are 7 and 5 and I’ve spoken Dutch to them consistently so they would get along fine in a Dutch school.

It’s the separation issue, as you say. Terrible! That’s the main reason we’ve been putting it off.

Let’s keep in touch,
Stephanie

Hi Nemeziz_ZA

Thanks so much for your insights with regards to schools!  Clearly you put great amounts of thought into the decision of where to place your children, and then still realised there was a factor you'd not thought about!  But I'm really glad to hear that they're now all really well settled in and happy.  Happy children is something we all strive for, isn't it?!

If we were to simply take the "safe route" of international schools, the big thing for us (with three children) is the great expense, and it's tricky from afar to find out the prices of the various schools (as I understand that some of them are quite decently subsidised by the Dutch government, making them slightly more affordable)!   We'd be wanting to base our decisions about where we're located and find work based on a town or city where there is a good international school that is the most affordable for us.  Are your children at the school(s) in Hilversum?

Thanks again!

Kari

Hello Kari,

You are so right, If the kids are happy then generally speaking then so are we. So yes making sure that they are happy was a big consideration for me.

Our son goes to the IPS in Hilversum and our daughter to Laar en Berg in Laaren (Laar & Berg Secondary Education). It opened this year due to the lack of capacity at ILS in Hilversum and the strong demand.

The ability to have an international school hosted within a Dutch school, with its facilities and the added benefit of mingling with Dutch students in school break has been a wonderful experience for her!

I recall you were looking at settling in Utrecht?

Hi there

Sorry it's been a while since I replied!  Thanks so much for the response about where your children are at school.  I will check out those schools!

Yes, the idea has been to find ourselves work in Utrecht, and schooling for the kids nearby.  But as things are standing now, we're getting progressively unsure about it being a feasible reality.  It feels as if keeping our little family together without me having to head over there months in advance to secure a job (and trying to find a role where my strong command of English and my currently conversational command of Dutch is adequate or just what is needed) in order for us then to finally apply for a residence permit for Alistair is almost impossible!  It feels so daunting and - with three school-going kids who may or may not fit into Dutch schools - filled with potential pitfalls. 

Perhaps we will feel differently soon.  But for now we're even considering the UK or Scotland instead?!

Kari, that’s exactly how we feel. Do some research into the so called “Belgium route.” It’s supposedly a lot easier to get into atleast Belgium, where you have to stay for a short while before you can then move to NL. I believe it’s possible for Alistair to stay with the family if you go that route. But have a dig around.

Je kunt natuurlijk ook versneld Nederlands leren bij de "Nonnen in Vught" die zijn daar gespecialiseerd in. Volgens hun methode kan je door middel van een blokweek je in het Nederlands verstaanbaar maken en begrijpen. Door daarna de er nog een week aan toe te voegen, dan beheerst je de taal goed genoeg voor werk of school.

Het is wel prijzig, maar zeer effectief. Regina Coeli en taalcursus voor het hele gezin

Het is wel zo dat kinderen Nederlands moeten beheersen op Nederlandse scholen. Ook op het 2-talig Gymnasium moet het Nederlands worden beheerst en het examen wordt ook in het Nederlands afgenomen.
Er valt altijd wel overal een mouw aan te passen natuurlijk, dat kan altijd in Nederland. Je moet er wel altijd zelf om vragen bij scholen.
Het zou raar zijn als kinderen alleen lager middelbaar onderwijs zouden moeten volgen, dat zou ook nergens op slaan.

Misschien helpt dit een klein beetje..

Hartelijk bedankt voor deze boodschap. Ik zal probeer om een beetje meer te schrijven als ik terug bij het werk ben volgend maandag. Veel makkelijker om niet met twee vingers te hoef te tikken 😊.

Ladies and Gents.

A polite reminder; you are posting in the English language section of the Forum and under our T&C's, you have to post in the English language.  If you wish to communicate in Dutch, then please use the Direct Message facility we provide.

Hope this helps.

Cynic
Expat Team

Oh sorry for that! I didn't know some words in English so I directly went to my native language.
I will continue the conversation in English.

Apologies! I was trying to be polite by answering a message in Dutch in my best Dutch possible 😉.

Ramses K. wrote:

Oh sorry for that! I didn't know some words in English so I directly went to my native language.
I will continue the conversation in English.

No problem.

It's a very useful post and the person you aimed it at is a Dutch speaker, so understood what you said; it's just that the vast majority of people who come here asking questions about moving to Holland, don't speak Dutch.

I'm glad that you will continue the conversation; the odd Dutch word or phrase won't matter.

Groetjes

Cynic
Expat Team

Capetownkari wrote:

Apologies! I was trying to be polite by answering a message in Dutch in my best Dutch possible 😉.

No problem. 

Capetownkari wrote:

But for now we're even considering the UK or Scotland instead?!

Hi Kari,

I would definitely consider the UK (and other countries) as well. Unless you have a mega (dual) salary, you will find the Netherlands very expensive compared to many other countries.

There has been a vast increase in the cost of living here in the last few years (it was expensive enough already) and many people are now struggling.

We live in the countryside in the north (not far from Meppel actually) and are self-employed.

Here are some examples of what we are now facing (which may or may not affect you if you were to emigrate to the Randstad of course, but just to give you an idea of how life can be like here) -

Due to the government putting up energy taxes, we have personally been hit by a 34% increase in our energy bill since the end of 2017 (no increase in our usage though). Having to pay over €500 for gas and electricity per month is no laughing matter and although this is above the Dutch average, we have more older, larger properties here in the north and many people we know are now in the same situation as us.
The Dutch government is pushing energy efficiency yet many people have no means to achieve this and many people are stuck in poorly-isolated homes with ever increasing bills without the possibility to downgrade to a smaller property because they would be underwater with their mortgages (some properties locally have seen a 40% collapse in value since 2008). Here in the north, and for so many people, unless you are realistic and accept a painful offer on your property, many will not sell.
An example: the house next to our neighbour remains for sale. We have seen 4 different estate agent boards outside the property since it was put on sale in March 2008 (that's 08, not 18). It remains unsold. 

The new 50% increase to the lower level VAT rate is going to hit us hard this year. Due to the many unregistered 'businesses' in our area unfairly competing against us, it makes it impossible for us to up our prices to compensate for this.

If we need to avail ourselves of the services of for example, a building, kitchen or bathroom company, then it will be German, because we just can't afford what the Dutch companies are asking for their services.

Due to the extemely high prices/rates here, we are now forced to arrange as much as possible in Germany. In August we will be crossing the border to pick up a rental SUV at Niederrhein airport because the rental companies here locally and at the Dutch airports want €1,000 more for the same car type/duration. We do own a car but because it is so old, it would not be wise for us to try and take it to Southern Spain. Buying a new(er) car would be out of the question, because we just couldn't afford it and if you're self-employed in the NL, it is almost impossible to get any kind of financing unless you have a certain amount of turnover unreachable for many small businesses here.

I have no idea what the cost of living is like in SA, but there seems to be a general idea that everything in the NL can cost more because people here will just pay up. Because of the huge difference in prices (and I don't just mean because of current GBP-EUR exchange rates), we still travel to the UK to shop every 6 months and regularly cross the border into Germany.

The north of the NL is not a rich area, and very different in many ways to that in the west of the country. I have lived in the NL almost 30 years (and it is hard for me to say this), but if I had a choice where to emigrate, it would no longer be the NL. Recently, one of the doctors in our village emigrated to NZ and last year the hairdresser in the next village shut up shop and emigrated to Australia for the sole reason that she couldn't afford it anymore here. The doctor took his family with him, the hairdresser left on her own.

There's a lot of negativity in the above post, but there is another reality to the NL that seems to be being ignored and if you (and any other expats) are thinking of coming here, you need to be fully aware of the true situation here that seems to be being airbrushed out by the government.
The Dutch talk about the '7 good years and the 7 bad years', well, we are certainly now overdue on the good ones....

The UK or Scotland? Scotland is a part of the UK.

I'm making the distinction in terms of Britain and Scotland.  I'm sorry if this was confusing.  There are many differences between the two, including the cost of health services and of university.

FYI Scotland is in Britain too, there's no distinction. I'm not having a go at you, just trying to clarify.

I think you are conflating England with Britain.

You're absolutely right.  Sorry .  I'm so used to referring to the UK instead of England!

It's not simple, this venn diagram might help

Hi AngloDutch

Thanks so much for your candid reply, which is good to hear, as it is really important to embark on the emigration / moving process without having a blinkered / "grass is greener on the other side" approach (although literally speaking I suspect probably the grass in the Netherlands is a lot greener on average than it is in mid-summer in Cape Town!). 

Although there are many substantial costs in the Netherlands (and many of them being far more pricey than in South Africa), SA  - and Cape Town in particular - in many respects is also a very expensive place to live.  My husband and I have therefore always both worked full-time to ensure that we can afford three kids at good schools (schooling for three kids - two at a comparatively "affordable" private school and one at a state school - was an eye-watering R210 000 for us last year) and to live in a convenient and pleasant - although not very fancy - suburb.  And to have a good medical aid, pay for adequate security, etc.  We are under no illusion that this requirement will change when we head overseas!  And that we will almost certainly have no domestic help! We've also realised that we'll need to base ourselves near to a central hub where salaries are generally higher, and where positions for business analysts and project managers are not in short supply.

The important thing for us to also remind ourselves is that, although we really hope our decision will be a good one that we stick with, it is not irreversible. 

Yorba wrote:

It's not simple, this venn diagram might help

http://tinyimg.io/i/CR8Xqlt.png

From 1801 to 1922 the UK also included all of Ireland. The Channel Islands and Isle of Man are not part of the UK, but are Crown Dependencies. Great Britain is the official collective name of of England, Scotland and Wales and their associated islands.

Glad to help out, Kari and good luck with your move, whatever you decide.

On the subject of the UK, I learnt to say United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Island, that way you remember that Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but not Great Britain. Everything else (Wales, Scotland, England) is Great Britain.

A Dutchie once asked me whether Wales, Scotland and N.I. were separate countries from England, and I embarrassingly said that I was not sure. I'd actually never thought about it! The person found it very strange that I did not know..

Well at the end of March UK is out the EU with no deal so the UK isn't an option anymore.

Great Britain is the largest of the British Isles. The same way Gran Canaria is the largest of the Canary Isles.