Why Would You Want Western Culture in Vietnam?

bluenz wrote:

That's the only good thing about the masses of ants in VN, they will eat practically anything.

Rather ants than dogs. 

Funny thing with people here .. if they see someone else cleaning up the hood, they will *swarm* out and do the same.  But they won't do it on their own.

I live in an upscale khu vục in south Cần Thơ, not in a rural area, though there are village like areas only blocks away.  It's just weird that people don't strive to keep the place neat.  We have a park a few blocks away that for a while was spotless, now it looks like New Orleans after Katrina.

ChrisFox wrote:

bluenz wrote:

That's the only good thing about the masses of ants in VN, they will eat practically anything.

Rather ants than dogs. 

Funny thing with people here .. if they see someone else cleaning up the hood, they will *swarm* out and do the same.  But they won't do it on their own.

I live in an upscale khu vục in south Cần Thơ, not in a rural area, though there are village like areas only blocks away.  It's just weird that people don't strive to keep the place neat.  We have a park a few blocks away that for a while was spotless, now it looks like New Orleans after Katrina.

Same here, they spent months beautifying a few hundred metres of riverside , ( beside the road ), cobblestoned a nice pathway, planter boxes with flowers, etc, now a few months later, it is all overgrown and like most new  VN building after a few months, look like they are 50 yrs old, but once the weeds turn into shrubs they will have a big clean up, they are probably looking forward to that day, probably a nice damp day, burn the stuff immediately, creaming themselves over all the smoke.

bluenz wrote:

Same here, they spent months beautifying a few hundred metres of riverside , ( beside the road ), cobblestoned a nice pathway, planter boxes with flowers, etc, now a few months later, it is all overgrown and like most new  VN building after a few months, look like they are 50 yrs old, but once the weeds turn into shrubs they will have a big clean up, they are probably looking forward to that day, probably a nice damp day, burn the stuff immediately, creaming themselves over all the smoke.

We did our house in marble, it cost a lot, but it will never have those horrid black streaks that everything gets here.

ChrisFox wrote:

bluenz wrote:

Same here, they spent months beautifying a few hundred metres of riverside , ( beside the road ), cobblestoned a nice pathway, planter boxes with flowers, etc, now a few months later, it is all overgrown and like most new  VN building after a few months, look like they are 50 yrs old, but once the weeds turn into shrubs they will have a big clean up, they are probably looking forward to that day, probably a nice damp day, burn the stuff immediately, creaming themselves over all the smoke.

We did our house in marble, it cost a lot, but it will never have those horrid black streaks that everything gets here.

I was quite surprised  when my penny pinching wife tiled the outside of her new house, keeps the place cooler and probably stops a bit of noise too?
  The paint you get here only last about 12 months, ( or maybe it's the lack of preparation knowledge, the usual workmanship, etc, etc ).

bluenz wrote:

ChrisFox wrote:

bluenz wrote:

Same here, they spent months beautifying a few hundred metres of riverside , ( beside the road ), cobblestoned a nice pathway, planter boxes with flowers, etc, now a few months later, it is all overgrown and like most new  VN building after a few months, look like they are 50 yrs old, but once the weeds turn into shrubs they will have a big clean up, they are probably looking forward to that day, probably a nice damp day, burn the stuff immediately, creaming themselves over all the smoke.

We did our house in marble, it cost a lot, but it will never have those horrid black streaks that everything gets here.

I was quite surprised  when my penny pinching wife tiled the outside of her new house, keeps the place cooler and probably stops a bit of noise too?
  The paint you get here only last about 12 months, ( or maybe it's the lack of preparation knowledge, the usual workmanship, etc, etc ).

So, since we're talking about houses, any of you ever seen a "basement"?  I know with the high water table, construction methods in the Delta and southern areas don't have much room to dig down but I'm curious if they have basement types anywhere.

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

bluenz wrote:

ChrisFox wrote:

We did our house in marble, it cost a lot, but it will never have those horrid black streaks that everything gets here.

I was quite surprised  when my penny pinching wife tiled the outside of her new house, keeps the place cooler and probably stops a bit of noise too?
  The paint you get here only last about 12 months, ( or maybe it's the lack of preparation knowledge, the usual workmanship, etc, etc ).

So, since we're talking about houses, any of you ever seen a "basement"?  I know with the high water table, construction methods in the Delta and southern areas don't have much room to dig down but I'm curious if they have basement types anywhere.

One of the Supermarkets here in QN, has a basement car/bike park, I've heard of a poster on another site that has mini hotels in BMT, made from shipping containers stacked on top of one another, he has a basement. ( keeps his generator, etc , there ).

"One of the Supermarkets here in QN, has a basement car/bike park, I've heard of a poster on another site that has mini hotels in BMT, made from shipping containers stacked on top of one another, he has a basement. ( keeps his generator, etc , there )."

Sounds like one of the forum members (jaitch) place. I remember reading about the shipping containers in one of his post.

cth wrote:

"One of the Supermarkets here in QN, has a basement car/bike park, I've heard of a poster on another site that has mini hotels in BMT, made from shipping containers stacked on top of one another, he has a basement. ( keeps his generator, etc , there )."

Sounds like one of the forum members (jaitch) place. I remember reading about the shipping containers in one of his post.

That's the one, aka BMT, the Living in VN website has died a natural death without his continuous input, ( I originally thought that it was his own site ).

So, since we're talking about houses, any of you ever seen a "basement"?  I know with the high water table, construction methods in the Delta and southern areas don't have much room to dig down but I'm curious if they have basement types anywhere.

Dalat might be the place to find some,

In the newer mansions, they have basements, where they park cars...  They build them with water-pumps all hooked up and ready to go.  Please don't ask me why.

Wild_1 wrote:

In the newer mansions, they have basements, where they park cars...  They build them with water-pumps all hooked up and ready to go.  Please don't ask me why.

I hope the main entrance has those gigantic doors in case the pumps fail or the electricity goes out, the rich folks can move their car upstairs in the guest/living room instead of leaving it below.

I'm not talking about the underground parking spaces but a basement where you access it from inside the house.  When built right, it can be like the hull/keel of a ship.  It'll be clean and dry when it's underwater. 

I'm wondering if it's been done before since these areas are naturally the coolest places in a house; one doesn't need AC or a fan to have one's siesta during the midday.  It's an energy conservation green energy thing/thought.

Wild_1 wrote:

In the newer mansions, they have basements, where they park cars...  They build them with water-pumps all hooked up and ready to go.  Please don't ask me why.

That's not just asking for trouble, that's sending trouble a self-addressed stamped envelope.  The pumps will fail, the plumbing will be crap, the power will go out.  The backup generator will stop working.  Or all four at once.

Folks: an online search throws up meaning of culture as :
The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, beliefs, and all other products of human work and thought and
The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterizes the functioning of a group or society
Or, when I was teaching some locals, I said it simply is 'the way we do things here'.
So, daredevil motorcycling, no queues, spitting, loud music, padded envelopes, answer nature's call in the open etc had defined the 'culture' here. This IS Vietnamese culture!
Time to call a spade , 'a spade'! This also has reference to saigon monkey's post about confusing culture with something ese.

Sploke77 wrote:

Folks: an online search throws up meaning of culture as :
The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, beliefs, and all other products of human work and thought and
The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterizes the functioning of a group or society
Or, when I was teaching some locals, I said it simply is 'the way we do things here'.
So, daredevil motorcycling, no queues, spitting, loud music, padded envelopes, answer nature's call in the open etc had defined the 'culture' here. This IS Vietnamese culture!
Time to call a spade , 'a spade'! This also has reference to saigon monkey's post about confusing culture with something ese.

Definitions are the basis of accurate communication, not the answer to complex questions.

I know several Vietnamese words for "culture," the kind in this context, not the kind one cultivates in a Petri dish--beware dictionaries--and one of them văn hoá, I see frequently preceded by gia đình or khu vực.  The meaning is plain; the owners of this store, or the occupants of this housing area, are well-mannered, cultivated people, and the inference is plain as could be; we don't spit on the floor here, we don't pick our noses and wipe our fingers on the furniture, and we don't yell. 

So, I call BS on this definition thing.  The people here are no more homogenous than people in the USA, but where in the USA the middle class with its expectations of education and manners was once the majority and is now vanishing, the middle class here is new and emergent and the rule is more, well, other than educated and well-mannered.  I have to tell people they can't smoke in my house, an astonishing request to some, and I've had people I cringingly refer to as guests picking their noses sitting in my living room. 

This isn't culture.  Half the words in Vietnamese conversation function to express politeness.  Da, thưa, vui lòng.  It's not a rude culture.  America is much ruder.  People of my home state, New York, revel in rudeness and sarcasm.  Snideness is an art form.

America is loaded with deliberately inconsiderate people, those who would smoke in restaurants more because they knew it bothered people than because they needed to.  Vietnamese don't have anywhere near that level of malevolence, but they can be astonishingly thoughtless and crude.  This isn't their culture.  It's plain old transcultural lack of manners. 

And it's bad.  I've mentioned the barbells at my gym, taken from racks and left on the floor; I go by a woodshop and see a tool rack, handmade, without a single tool in it, every tool laying scattered around the shop, some dusty.  That's just stupidity.  Alles an Ort und Stelle, they say in German; that notion hasn't percolated down yet.

ChrisFox wrote:

I've mentioned the barbells at my gym, taken from racks and left on the floor; I go by a woodshop and see a tool rack, handmade, without a single tool in it, every tool laying scattered around the shop, some dusty.  That's just stupidity.  Alles an Ort und Stelle, they say in German; that notion hasn't percolated down yet.

The word lazy , immediately jumped into my mind, describing many VN's, i,e,  that mid day seista, the Banking and Govt world, etc,  stops for 2 or more hours, ok , so it's hot, it's just as bad in many other countries, I always preferred to start work early, ( when it's cooler ), and finish early, they call it daylight saving in Aus/NZ, but imagine the chaos if they tried that here, ( or I should say even more chaos ). They must get a hell of shock when they go to places like the US/AUS/NZ to work.

bluenz wrote:

ChrisFox wrote:

I've mentioned the barbells at my gym, taken from racks and left on the floor; I go by a woodshop and see a tool rack, handmade, without a single tool in it, every tool laying scattered around the shop, some dusty.  That's just stupidity.  Alles an Ort und Stelle, they say in German; that notion hasn't percolated down yet.

The word lazy , immediately jumped into my mind, describing many VN's, i,e,  that mid day seista, the Banking and Govt world, etc,  stops for 2 or more hours, ok , so it's hot, it's just as bad in many other countries, I always preferred to start work early, ( when it's cooler ), and finish early, they call it daylight saving in Aus/NZ, but imagine the chaos if they tried that here, ( or I should say even more chaos ). They must get a hell of shock when they go to places like the US/AUS/NZ to work.

Quite a bit more complicated.  A lot of hot countries have a midday break, but it's not really the heat.  Truth is that the 16 hour unbroken wakefulness is relatively new,our ancestors were almost never awake more than seven hours at a stretch, naps are much more the rule over time and culture. 

I envy the Vietnamese who can drop off to sleep in seconds, sleep through pandemonium, I can't do it, it's hard fir me to get to sleep and I tend to awaken irritable.

ChrisFox wrote:

bluenz wrote:

ChrisFox wrote:

I've mentioned the barbells at my gym, taken from racks and left on the floor; I go by a woodshop and see a tool rack, handmade, without a single tool in it, every tool laying scattered around the shop, some dusty.  That's just stupidity.  Alles an Ort und Stelle, they say in German; that notion hasn't percolated down yet.

The word lazy , immediately jumped into my mind, describing many VN's, i,e,  that mid day seista, the Banking and Govt world, etc,  stops for 2 or more hours, ok , so it's hot, it's just as bad in many other countries, I always preferred to start work early, ( when it's cooler ), and finish early, they call it daylight saving in Aus/NZ, but imagine the chaos if they tried that here, ( or I should say even more chaos ). They must get a hell of shock when they go to places like the US/AUS/NZ to work.

Quite a bit more complicated.  A lot of hot countries have a midday break, but it's not really the heat.  Truth is that the 16 hour unbroken wakefulness is relatively new,our ancestors were almost never awake more than seven hours at a stretch, naps are much more the rule over time and culture.
I envy the Vietnamese who can drop off to sleep in seconds, sleep through pandemonium, I can't do it, it's hard fir me to get to sleep and I tend to awaken irritable.

Dogs still sleep 16 hrs a day. ( except mine )
   I know what you mean about the sleeping , they can even sleep while seated on their m/bikes, unfortunately I am a very light sleeper, so get woken continuously at night,  tried the siesta thing, woke up crook as a dog, after an hour. ( Although I often worked 12 hr night shifts, but they were up to 6 weeks straight , without a day off, then 7 days off to try and catch up ),  Here at 4 --  4.30am, its 1 up, so everyone up, starts with the morning yelling to each other contest, while chopping up the mornings cooking firewood

The yelling is probably the second hardest thing about living here, after the smoking.  And no matter how many times you ask them to tone it down, or please, I beg you, speak just a little slower so I have a chance of understanding, they won't.  I've seen rural people who yelled every word and some who start softly and they erupt into what sounds like a heated argument, but isn't.

ChrisFox: you are in CanTho. It's a different culture there, I am sure, than HCMC. Some relatives just visited the place and told me the folks there are relaxed and kind people. They sell stuff on the river at fair prices too. They are not out to create chaos. But HCMC is a totally different ball game altogether. Those who agree , say 'Ay!'.

Sploke77 wrote:

ChrisFox: you are in CanTho. It's a different culture there, I am sure, than HCMC. Some relatives just visited the place and told me the folks there are relaxed and kind people. They sell stuff on the river at fair prices too. They are not out to create chaos. But HCMC is a totally different ball game altogether. Those who agree , say 'Ay!'.

Maybe when they are haggling over prices, I been worried my wife is about to punch someone a few times, but when I ask her after, she says they were asking too much!!!!!!

Sploke77 wrote:

ChrisFox: you are in CanTho. It's a different culture there, I am sure, than HCMC. Some relatives just visited the place and told me the folks there are relaxed and kind people. They sell stuff on the river at fair prices too. They are not out to create chaos. But HCMC is a totally different ball game altogether. Those who agree , say 'Ay!'.

I don't like TPHCM too much.  It takes an hour to get from anywhere to anywhere and there is so much tobacco smoke that even if I haven't actually smelled a cigarette I have a splitting headache by early afternoon.  There are some places there I like but I couldn't live there.

Question pls: anyone here has been living in Vietnam for more than 15 years? Or was here before 15 years back? If yes, we can discuss about Vietnamese culture.

There are a lot of things happening in Vietnam and people pull "culture" to be an excuse as it's just an easy word to say! Dont presume it's Vienamese culture then! Pls!

aibiet150204 wrote:

Question pls: anyone here has been living in Vietnam for more than 15 years? Or was here before 15 years back? If yes, we can discuss about Vietnamese culture.

There are a lot of things happening in Vietnam and people pull "culture" to be an excuse as it's just an easy word to say! Dont presume it's Vienamese culture then! Pls!

I first came here 15 years ago but not again until five years ago and now I have lived here three years.

I saw quite a few changes from 1998 to 2008; dried squid was a lot less common, so were nước mìa kiosks, and the severely disfigured and crippled people were all gone.

Question pls: anyone here has been living in Vietnam for more than 15 years? Or was here before 15 years back? If yes, we can discuss about Vietnamese culture.

Does 1968-69 count? Along with all the years I've been married to a Vietnamese wife? (Hand raised, waving annoyingly: Me, me, me)

As to spitting, a colleague who worked in Guangzhou a number of years told me that when he flew on East China airlines in the 90s, right after the plane took off the stewardess would roll a plastic sheet down the aisle so people could spit.

And as for spitting, as a former tobacco chewer I must confess to having had a really nasty habit for more than 20 years. But, NEVER in the house. Nha Toi would have sliced me up with a cleaver. Only at work. I didn't realize how nasty a habit it was to others until I went to Germany for a conference and a Ranger co-worker of mine, who happened to be a Chinese-American from Hawaii, used an empty water glass to dribble his snuff spit into. The waiting staff, all attractive young ladies, were aghast. When I suggested he not do so, his attitude was "screw them, they're getting paid".

Yup, a bit of good old American culture. Yech!!

aibiet150204 wrote:

Question pls: anyone here has been living in Vietnam for more than 15 years? Or was here before 15 years back? If yes, we can discuss about Vietnamese culture.

There are a lot of things happening in Vietnam and people pull "culture" to be an excuse as it's just an easy word to say! Dont presume it's Vienamese culture then! Pls!

I worked here as a General Director for the years 1993 to 1996. I saw the behavior then. I returned last year and I still saw the same patterns of behavior. Thus, do not tell me such behaviour has not been ingrained in the masses already, thus, I conclude this is 'culture'. This is the way people are used to doing things. Tell me I am not qualified to discuss with you! The tax officer is still around, the policemen are still around and those who smoke and urinate in the open are still around! So there!

I thought about doing a Vietnam photo album on Facebook all of men with their backs facing the camera and whizzing in the open.

ChrisFox wrote:

I thought about doing a Vietnam photo album on Facebook all of men with their backs facing the camera and whizzing in the open.

Often I used to see men and women come down to the beach, disappearing into the trees, doing their business, but never covering it up, great for the dogs and people walking .  I've got a photo of one bloke , on the beach having a dump, near the water, suppose he didn't have far to go to clean his bum?

That part isn't so bad, the #1 anyway, but the smoking infuriates me.  Those things absolutely stink and they irritate my nose and give me headaches.  The headaches can last for weeks.  Only the last few years in te USA was I able to really avoid them and I had gotten used to it; here you never see men at a table without a pack and a lighter.

ChrisFox wrote:

That part isn't so bad, the #1 anyway, but the smoking infuriates me.  Those things absolutely stink and they irritate my nose and give me headaches.  The headaches can last for weeks.  Only the last few years in te USA was I able to really avoid them and I had gotten used to it; here you never see men at a table without a pack and a lighter.

I think every other posts of yours complains about smoking in Việt Nam so here's a gift for you....Cuz your complaining here is never going to stop the smoking.

One of the customs I enjoy is being invited for beer.  Does not matter where I am at, people are always inviting me to sit down and drink a beer. They may not know english, but the are friendly. Some like to talk about the American war,  I always drink a beer or 2 and then go on my way.

ChrisFox wrote:

That part isn't so bad, the #1 anyway, but the smoking infuriates me.  Those things absolutely stink and they irritate my nose and give me headaches.  The headaches can last for weeks.  Only the last few years in te USA was I able to really avoid them and I had gotten used to it; here you never see men at a table without a pack and a lighter.

It must also be a ritual when as soon as you put your helmet on, you must immediately light up a ciggy, I see it all the time here, I tried drinking beer while riding once , not a good idea, ( especially from a can ).

Hey, Vinataba is that big corporation that manufactures cigarettes; they even export. So, you want to try closing that down and make tens of thousands out of work? There will be a revolution!
I remember when nearing year end, we will be very charitable. All the 'envelope monies' had to be grouped as 'donations' in our books and HQ had a hard time trying to understand why there were no receipts issued to claim tax deductibles!

On the trains they used to have no smoking signs, that didnt stop them from lighting up. Smoking is actually increasing in Viet Nam and who owns  Vinataba the biggest cigarette maker,the government.

ancientpathos wrote:

One of the customs I enjoy is being invited for beer.  Does not matter where I am at, people are always inviting me to sit down and drink a beer. They may not know english, but the are friendly. Some like to talk about the American war,  I always drink a beer or 2 and then go on my way.

Reason no 1 , they assume all foreigners drink beers.
No 2 :?they need U to help consume their. 333.  Else that may have to close down soon..

ancientpathos wrote:

One of the customs I enjoy is being invited for beer.  Does not matter where I am at, people are always inviting me to sit down and drink a beer. They may not know english, but the are friendly. Some like to talk about the American war,  I always drink a beer or 2 and then go on my way.

Being the rich, overpaid Foreigner that you are, I would assume you would have bought them beers in return??, I have a friend here who liked to drink everyone else's beer, ( including the poor farmers, but who could always somehow buy beer? ), but he would never invite them to his house or buy them beers in return, ( commonly known as a f***ing bludger in Aus/NZ ), also with his abusing VN drivers etc, he gives Foreigners a bad name around here.

colinoscapee wrote:

On the trains they used to have no smoking signs, that didnt stop them from lighting up. Smoking is actually increasing in Viet Nam and who owns  Vinataba the biggest cigarette maker,the government.

Now that explains why there's such an attempt to crack down smuggled cigarettes from Cambodia that skirt the VAT taxes.  It's competition!

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

On the trains they used to have no smoking signs, that didnt stop them from lighting up. Smoking is actually increasing in Viet Nam and who owns  Vinataba the biggest cigarette maker,the government.

Now that explains why there's such an attempt to crack down smuggled cigarettes from Cambodia that skirt the VAT taxes.  It's competition!

I wish they would crack down more on the smuggled dogs.

Yes, the black market cigarettes are a big pain in the arse for the government.


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