Absolutely Anything Else

Russia was not going to tolerate NATO missiles on its border. Is that any surprise?

Zelensky could have resolved this weeks ago with a statement recognizing the brotherhood of the Russian and Ukrainian peoples and committing not to join NATO or permit foreign troops or bases on his territory. He didn't. Now there are consequences.

zif wrote:

Russia was not going to tolerate NATO missiles on its border. Is that any surprise?

Zelensky could have resolved this weeks ago with a statement recognizing the brotherhood of the Russian and Ukrainian peoples and committing not to join NATO or permit foreign troops or bases on his territory. He didn't. Now there are consequences.

Got a link to NATO missiles on the border? 

Zelensky would have to capitulate to Putin's will, just like Lukashenko is already Putin's puppet. 

People forget Maidan Square.

The Ukranians voted in Zelensky on a policy of joining the EU and NATO.  The people wanted it. 

So it was always going to get further from the control of Putin and his fellow kleptomaniacs.

He was dumb as could be selling Ukrainians on that pipe dream.

Even dumber thinking the West would save him.

NATO voted back in 2008 for Ukraine not to join.

zif wrote:

He was dumb as could be selling Ukrainians on that pipe dream.

Even dumber thinking the West would save him.

He's not dumb at all.  He might be somewhat naive but dumb, definitely not.  Zelensky had a TV production company and was very successful at it.   Putin has said he's de-nazifying Ukraine.  Bit strange since Zelensky is actually Jewish.

There's a litany of actors or showmen who have been elected president of somewhere -  Ronald Reagen in the USA,  Estrada in The Philippines and even Trump - showman personified.

Being President is being the front man for a team behind.  Ideal really for actors and performers.

And of course Reagan brought down the the USSR so that would be interesting if yet another actor can bring down Putin's dream of a new Soviet Empire.

Many countries have minority populations. That does not give them the right to invade.
Russia is not only invading the areas where a large Russian-speaking population exists, but the entire country. It is foolish and immoral to try to justify it.
Hitler used the same justification when he took over Czechoslovakia.

Vicces1 wrote:

Many countries have minority populations. That does not give them the right to invade.
Russia is not only invading the areas where a large Russian-speaking population exists, but the entire country. It is foolish and immoral to try to justify it.
Hitler used the same justification when he took over Czechoslovakia.

Yes, no excuse.  One has to ask if Hitler was evil or just nuts or both.

Some BBC reports from the USA from people who have met Putin, are saying that he has got something medically wrong with him.  Could be spin.  But it's looking increasing irrational to do what he's doing.  Ukrainian civilians are increasingly confronting the Russian soldiers on the ground asking them to leave.

Casualties are really building up for Putin.  He's got no way to excuse it.

zif wrote:

Isn't there a slight echo of '56 here? Both in Moscow showing who's boss when a local leader gets a little too independent and in unrealistic local expectations that America and its allies would intervene.

This time sadly molotov cocktails aren't going to do much.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Vicces1 wrote:

Many countries have minority populations. That does not give them the right to invade.
Russia is not only invading the areas where a large Russian-speaking population exists, but the entire country. It is foolish and immoral to try to justify it.
Hitler used the same justification when he took over Czechoslovakia.

Yes, no excuse.  One has to ask if Hitler was evil or just nuts or both.

Some BBC reports from the USA from people who have met Putin, are saying that he has got something medically wrong with him.  Could be spin.  But it's looking increasing irrational to do what he's doing.  Ukrainian civilians are increasingly confronting the Russian soldiers on the ground asking them to leave.

Casualties are really building up for Putin.  He's got no way to excuse it.

I'm afraid they are using the Ukraine as bait to get Nato involved in a larger war.

zif wrote:

Isn't there a slight echo of '56 here? Both in Moscow showing who's boss when a local leader gets a little too independent and in unrealistic local expectations that America and its allies would intervene.

Its as bad as 1941, Hitler one side, Stalin the other side, it had been recaptured twice.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

...
This time sadly molotov cocktails aren't going to do much.

People are quite defiant. I don't think Putin expected this.  Not welcomed as liberators but occupiers.

Some video from telex.hu on the situation from those hiding in the metro - most of it is in English:

HU reporter interviewing people hiding in Kyiv metro

The title of the video says it all really.

126,000 have left the country so far, they are staying and willing to fight. Putin wasn't expecting this. He thought it would have been over quickly. He doesn't have unlimited funds so will not want this to drag on either.

Scary stuff going on.
We have never seen this sort of drama in decades and people have gotten so soft and don't know how to survive if they had to on their own.
Me too for that matter,could use a good old fashioned Girl Scout manual about now...
In 1939 in the village where my father was born ( he has already come to the US by 1939) one of his 16 year old cousins was picked up on the st. by a Nazi officer.
He was not a Jewish boy but a Slav.
He was put to work on a farm that this officer had taken over and forced to work there for 5 years.
He said he saw many Jewish people working on the farm that came and went.terrible stuff.
He was not conscribed into the military but still put in slave labor.
He was sent free at the end of the war and like so many in my family found their family home burnt to the ground.
He couldn't find any of his close family, his mother father ect.
He immigrated like some others to Australia, several of the family came to the US and many stayed home and rebuilt.
He married in OZ and had a daughter.
He thought his fmaily was all dead in Poland.
In early 1980's the Red Cross contacted him to tell him his mother was still alive and living in Poland.
He and his daughter went straight to Poland to see her.
The old women died 2 weeks later.
War is never good, only for those in power who never get their hands dirty.
BTY, did I hear news the the Queen has passed away?
I have not seen any news coverage about that but my husband read it in the Hungarian news.

SimCityAT wrote:

126,000 have left the country so far, they are staying and willing to fight. Putin wasn't expecting this. He thought it would have been over quickly. He doesn't have unlimited funds so will not want this to drag on either.

He's got $600 billion to finance it  BUT he still has to  manage a collapsing economy and a very large country. 

One of my contacts tells me the Chechens are sending in 10K fighters.  This will be a step up in brutality.  They are known for intense fanaticism to their leaders and highly clan like.  And of course, Grozny was nearly destroyed by Putin and his man there Kadyrov is a nasty piece of work.

Apparently they've stopped a ship in the Channel that has vehicles on heading to Putingrad (aka St Petersburg). Maybe the vehicles are for the oligarchs.

Just read that the rules have changed.
Men ( 16 to 60)from Ukraine can no longer enter Hungary unless they have a stamped Hungarian passport.
This is a new rule.
Pets without passports and chips also can not enter .
Not cool.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Just read that the rules have changed.
Men ( 16 to 60)from Ukraine can no longer enter Hungary unless they have a stamped Hungarian passport.
This is a new rule.
Pets without passports and chips also can not enter .
Not cool.

I wonder what they mean by stamped passport.  Stamped by whom?  It's an international emergency. 

I cannot see Hungary being able to keep up that for very long.  There will be many thousands queuing up there or they will be just walking across anywhere they can. I cannot see  HU border guards being able to stop them or they will just let them in regardless.

Radio just reported Hungary agreed to cut Russia off from SWIFT.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Just read that the rules have changed.
Men ( 16 to 60)from Ukraine can no longer enter Hungary unless they have a stamped Hungarian passport.
This is a new rule.
Pets without passports and chips also can not enter .
Not cool.

I wonder what they mean by stamped passport.  Stamped by whom?  It's an international emergency. 

I cannot see Hungary being able to keep up that for very long.  There will be many thousands queuing up there or they will be just walking across anywhere they can. I cannot see  HU border guards being able to stop them or they will just let them in regardless.

Radio just reported Hungary agreed to cut Russia off from SWIFT.

I think is because only 18 - 60 are allowed out of the country.

SimCityAT wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Just read that the rules have changed.
Men ( 16 to 60)from Ukraine can no longer enter Hungary unless they have a stamped Hungarian passport.
This is a new rule.
Pets without passports and chips also can not enter .
Not cool.

I wonder what they mean by stamped passport.  Stamped by whom?  It's an international emergency. 

I cannot see Hungary being able to keep up that for very long.  There will be many thousands queuing up there or they will be just walking across anywhere they can. I cannot see  HU border guards being able to stop them or they will just let them in regardless.

Radio just reported Hungary agreed to cut Russia off from SWIFT.

I think is because only 18 - 60 are allowed out of the country.

I don't get it.

If they have HU passports, who is restricting their entry to Hungary?   

What is the stamp about? Like a UKR exit stamp?

Radio report says 4 mile queue at the UKR-RO border crossings. No queue the other way (of course).

One thing I'm not getting either is some European countries are still insisting on COVID tests to enter them (i.e. Italy).  What a complete bureaucratic waste of time in the middle of a war zone.  Morons.

No doubt some confusion in the reporting. It's Ukraine which is restricting departure of 18-60-year-old men.

zif wrote:

No doubt some confusion in the reporting. It's Ukraine which is restricting departure of 18-60-year-old men.

Sounds more like it. 

Perhaps the UKR authorities know who is UKR and HU.  I think what is really going on is that it shows an UKR entry stamp in a HU passport.   Having a HU passport alone is not going to be enough to get across the border.

Heard a report that the queue at some  RO-UKR border crossings is 20 hours with no food/water on the UKR side but plenty on the RO side.

It sounds to me they should just let everyone in. 

How are they going to run an effective border regime when the centre is under attack?

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

...
BTY, did I hear news the the Queen has passed away?
I have not seen any news coverage about that but my husband read it in the Hungarian news.

No, the Queen is not dead.  She had COVID but isn't really sick.  She's on light duties.  I suppose being 95 means one could be dead any day.  My Dad is 97 and good shape for his age but one must be thinking that every day is a bonus. If  Liz was dead, it'd be really up there headlining with Ukraine.

Don't know what kind of news your hubby is reading but  these days best to corroborate with some additional trusted sources like the BBC.  Proper journalists don't publish misinformation.

Well, long live the Queen.
I told him why is there no main stream news about it if she was gone?

I keep reading it was men 16 to 60 but 18 does seem more to the point.
My grandfather was only 14 when he inlisted in the US Army.
My step-father ( no. 2) was only 17 when he inlisted into the Navy in WW11.
When I look around at the average 18 year old, I just see spoiled little children ,not like 50 plus years ago when 18 year olds were heading off to Vietnam.
I see photos of my cousins in Nam driving tanks ect.
I wonder why females are getting a free ride? Not like most 18 year old females are mothers these days.
Not playing video games all day long like so many do these days. It's easy to kill with a video game but no so easy in real life.
My cousin has PTSD because of his service in Nam.
He didn't let it destroy his life, he went on the get his PHD in education and is still very active in local VA events in his home town in Conn.
In fact he is too much at times, he just posted a photo of himself as the MC of a parade and photos of he and his wife at the mayors ball.
Guess he is a Freemason by now...
He is always fund raising for vets and holding cookout events ect. t raise money for the VA .
Another of my first cousins was a Sergeant Mjor in the USMC.
Nw in his early 70's he is a RV travelers in his free time, he and his wife g t all the beach RV camps dwn the coast of Ca. in the sweet Mercedes RV. Looks like war pays well.
I do hope that tossing Putin out of SWIFT doesn't crash the dollar, then we all will be going digital. Maybe we will get a dime for every dollar in our accounts if we are lucky.The begining of the one world currency.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Well, long live the Queen.
I told him why is there no main stream news about it if she was gone?

I keep reading it was men 16 to 60 but 18 does seem more to the point.
...
I do hope that tossing Putin out of SWIFT doesn't crash the dollar, then we all will be going digital. Maybe we will get a dime for every dollar in our accounts if we are lucky.The begining of the one world currency.

The Queen is fine.  She looks very old and she is.  But pretty good for 95.

I've seen video of men being refused exit from Ukraine.  Not surprising really they are trying to get people to fight for their country.


Putin being out of SWIFT is only going to slow them down.  Maybe, they can finance their war for at least a year.    Certainly longer than Ukraine can hold out as an independent country before it turns into long term guerilla warfare.   Russia won't be able to hide those losses.   We've seen how the Taliban managed to harass occupying forces for 20+ years.  Putin cannot live forever, he's already 70. 

Meanwhile, today Belarus becomes effectively part of Russia and will cease to exist as a separate country.   And Putin is President of both.  Lukashenko will be lucky to survive a few months.

We can only hope Putin can be overthrown and will be put on trial.

The economic sanctions are targeted to inflict as much pain as possible on the oligarchs propping Putin up, but so far (as I am writing this, things can change) have avoided Europe's ability to pay for/consume natural gas and petroleum from Russia. Cutting SWIFT off 100% would have immediately put an end to deliveries.
That said, some countries, like Switzerland, have decided not to restrict Russian finances yet. And China is a huge question mark. They desperately want Russian wheat and energy. As long as the bucket is leaking, there will be no choking off sanctions for Putin himself, but certainly the situation will be much more difficult without his access and control. It may indeed push some of the lower echelons to try something. But this is not a quick strategy, it will take months for these sanctions to really start biting.
I can confirm that Ukraine itself is stating that all men of fighting age (18 - 60) are expected to stay in-country and fight. Women and children are encouraged to leave if they can, take shelter if they cannot.
I've heard reports that state the Russians have taken over 3,500 losses. That's a ton more than they thought, and much more than their losses in Afghanistan (for a similar time period). About 15k Russian soldiers died in Afghanistan, but that was over a ten-year period...

Vicces1 wrote:

The economic sanctions are targeted to inflict as much pain as possible on the oligarchs propping Putin up, but so far (as I am writing this, things can change) have avoided Europe's ability to pay for/consume natural gas and petroleum from Russia. Cutting SWIFT off 100% would have immediately put an end to deliveries.
That said, some countries, like Switzerland, have decided not to restrict Russian finances yet. And China is a huge question mark. They desperately want Russian wheat and energy. As long as the bucket is leaking, there will be no choking off sanctions for Putin himself, but certainly the situation will be much more difficult without his access and control. It may indeed push some of the lower echelons to try something. But this is not a quick strategy, it will take months for these sanctions to really start biting.
I can confirm that Ukraine itself is stating that all men of fighting age (18 - 60) are expected to stay in-country and fight. Women and children are encouraged to leave if they can, take shelter if they cannot.
I've heard reports that state the Russians have taken over 3,500 losses. That's a ton more than they thought, and much more than their losses in Afghanistan (for a similar time period). About 15k Russian soldiers died in Afghanistan, but that was over a ten-year period...

Things are moving so fast, it's hard to keep up.

Zelensky's representatives are due to meet Putin's people on the border with Belarus.   And meet without pre-conditions.   I find that surprising, surely they should stop their advance and declare a ceasefire.

Putin put his nuclear forces on alert. That's really moving into raving looney territory. It could be a bluff because if he even launched one nuclear bomb on Ukraine, no-one could take the chance.  Russia itself would have to be destroyed.  They'd be bombed back to the stone age.  And we'd all probably die in the process.

Mrs F says Croatian volunteers are being raised to fight in Ukraine as individuals and not as NATO troops.  Other countries  have said the same.   

EU also says it's going to arm the Ukrainians. 

Protests are increasing in Russia.  This could signal the end of Putin and/or I'm speculating possibly even the break up of Russia itself.

Germany is increasing military spending by €100 Billion.

Germany (I think is due to pay) Putin $200M for gas within days and $100+ million for oil as well.  This cannot take place. It's financing Putin's war.  It's up to the other countries in NATO and in the EU to support countries caught out with over dependence on Russian gas/oil - Norway could pump gas to Germany, Hungary, Austria, Italy etc.  It'll be tough for a while but it would be survivable.

It's looking like Putin seriously misjudged the situation.  It's a war only he wanted and he cannot afford. We could see someone in his entourage take him out to put an end to it. Shades of Claus von Stauffenberg come to mind.

Here's a link to the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence and statement put out by the Minister (yesterday):


Address by the Minister of Defence of Ukraine Oleksii Reznikov
2022-02-26 14:50:00 | ID: 66695

Dear Ukrainians!

Over 55 hours of resistance.

Our defenders have destroyed the enemy's plans. As of this morning, the number of Russian occupiers killed has exceeded 3,000. More than 200 interventionists are captured. The number of captives is increasing. They did not expect such a response and themselves. Hundreds of armoured vehicles have been destroyed, including more than a hundred Russian tanks. Yesterday, seven helicopters were shot down by Stingers.

......

As you say, events are changing or being updated rapidly.
Putin's NATO statements come on the heels of both Sweden and Finland expressing their openness to join NATO. As the invasion is much slower, and the resistance within Russia and in Ukraine grows, Putin will become increasingly desperate. He is not a reasonable man, he has shown his willingness to flaunt international law and a complete disregard for human life.  His statement about nuclear readiness must be taken very seriously.
Several captured Russian soldiers told the Ukrainians that they really didn't know about an invasion, they thought they were simply on "military exercises". Their morale seems very low and their motivation for invading a "brother" country is quite low. They do not share in Putin's gains.
What is really baffling is the long-term strategy... He cannot hold Ukraine without a continuous blood drain of resources, worse than Afghanistan. Plus Russia will be financially drained, cut off... Already tech companies are refusing to sell within Russia, embargoes for high-tech everything are going up, luxury cars and car parts have been stopped. So how will Putin navigate this to a win for himself? I don't see one...

"We could see someone in his entourage take him out to put an end to it. Shades of Claus von Stauffenberg come to mind."

Well, we all know what happened to von Stauffenberg, don't we.

zif wrote:

"We could see someone in his entourage take him out to put an end to it. Shades of Claus von Stauffenberg come to mind."

Well, we all know what happened to von Stauffenberg, don't we.

Yes, we know. 

But  IF he had succeeded, it would have been over very quickly and it would have saved millions of lives.  von Stauffenberg wasn't a traitor, he was a patriot.

I hope someone in the PU clique is able to see this is unworkable and take Putin out.

Vicces1 wrote:

As you say, events are changing or being updated rapidly.
Putin's NATO statements come on the heels of both Sweden and Finland expressing their openness to join NATO. As the invasion is much slower, and the resistance within Russia and in Ukraine grows, Putin will become increasingly desperate. He is not a reasonable man, he has shown his willingness to flaunt international law and a complete disregard for human life.  His statement about nuclear readiness must be taken very seriously.
Several captured Russian soldiers told the Ukrainians that they really didn't know about an invasion, they thought they were simply on "military exercises". Their morale seems very low and their motivation for invading a "brother" country is quite low. They do not share in Putin's gains.
What is really baffling is the long-term strategy... He cannot hold Ukraine without a continuous blood drain of resources, worse than Afghanistan. Plus Russia will be financially drained, cut off... Already tech companies are refusing to sell within Russia, embargoes for high-tech everything are going up, luxury cars and car parts have been stopped. So how will Putin navigate this to a win for himself? I don't see one...

I am not sure I believe that the Russian soldiers didn't know what they were doing.  Blowing stuff up and people shooting back is not an exercise.  Seeing 4000 of your dead comrades is not an exercise.  It's a bit strange when locals come up to you (as a Russian soldier) and ask you what you think you are doing in your own language. You might begin to wonder!

I think you are right - what was the end game for Putin? I heard commentators saying he'll take the Black Sea coast and keep that and leave the centre to the Ukrainians.  I cannot see that working out.

Meanwhile......there are apparently large protests in Minsk this evening. Even while Zelensky's represenatives were meeting with the Russians on the Belarus border, the Russians were still launching ballistic missiles.   That's insane.

As of today (and their daft/fake referendum), it looks to me like Belarus as a separate country will cease to exist.   I heard BY (Belarus) was ordered by Putin to send in their troops to Ukraine. I cannot see that working out as they won't want to fight.

I reckon by the end of next week Lukashenko will be dead, "killed by UKR saboteurs" and Putin will assert  control of Belarus "to protect the population".

It looks like it's spiralling out of Putin's control.

LOTS of fake videos -- people are crazy with these uploads and simple reverse image searches show them to be photos of air shows from years past, simple explosions from accidents (i.e. not a missile), and other photoshopped items.
I really wonder why the motivation for it.
Have you heard the hacking group Anonymous hacked into and published Russian military documents? Names, Emails, passwords, phone numbers of military personnel. And they continue to work. I also heard that pornhub redirects all Russians to a Ukrainian flag and a plea to stop the war.

So much propaganda out there from both sides. Sort of foolish to believe anything you hear or read at this stage.

On both sides?
Are you "trying to understand" and rationalize an invasion?
I mentioned that people from all over the world have trivialized the invasion for "internet points" by uploading images and videos that have nothing to do with this war. It's a sad state of affairs.
Examples Link: [link under review]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO2F8nUi3oA

Vicces1 wrote:

LOTS of fake videos -- people are crazy with these uploads and simple reverse image searches show them to be photos of air shows from years past, simple explosions from accidents (i.e. not a missile), and other photoshopped items.
I really wonder why the motivation for it.
Have you heard the hacking group Anonymous hacked into and published Russian military documents? Names, Emails, passwords, phone numbers of military personnel. And they continue to work. I also heard that pornhub redirects all Russians to a Ukrainian flag and a plea to stop the war.

I am completely baffled.

I don't know how people get  a kick out of uploading fake video and game footage and trying to pass it off as real.   Like trolling, it's just an absurd pastime.   

BTW, some of our local HU contacts (Fidesz supporters mainly) here were making excuses in favour of Putin. But the majority have gone completely silent since this has dragged on.   OV has not said much.  I reckon he's wetting his pants each day.  I cannot understand why anyone would make excuses for Putin.   

Moreover, I cannot understand why the average Russian grunts are fighting for a guy who doesn't care about them and is more interested in his own ego and pockets.

When this is over,  the world will have to decide about all of these autocrats and oligarchs.  They are a total menace to stability of the world.

BTW, Mrs F is at a HU passport office and is saying it's very busy, mostly people getting passports for their kids.  Not sure what it means yet.

It's simply a fact: both sides are engaged in a propaganda war.

zif wrote:

It's simply a fact: both sides are engaged in a propaganda war.

Is that an excuse for Putin's actions?

You are delusional if you believe information from one side is wholly fact and from the other fake propaganda.

Controlling and massaging news is a part of war strategy, and has long been so. Everybody does it.

zif wrote:

You are delusional if you believe information from one side is wholly fact and from the other fake propaganda.

Controlling and massaging news is a part of war strategy, and has long been so. Everybody does it.

Now you're trolling. Like we don't know any of that.

But more to the point, what is your point:? 

What we really want to know is if you think there's legitimacy in Putin's actions?

And if you do think that, what are the reasons to support Putin's invasion?

And if you don't support Putin's actions, do you in plain words, condemn them?

Amongst all this bad news, tomorrow (1st March) is Shrove Tuesday, which is also known in many countries as Pancake Day.

Make Pancakes (preferably for Ukraine)!