Looking to buy property in Hungary to rent/ give to our child

The area you indicate is unclear, I am looking to sell my property but likely to be over your budget, anyhow only after we received vaccine.
Renting out makes me a bit suspicious, how do you intend to make a profit (or even make break-even), who will manage this, ...
As a minimum you should indicate area, type of property and budget.

Bicey wrote:

Hello there,
I am new here, but I am looking for information on purchasing property in Hungary for the purpose of renting it out for a good few years and then giving it to my son.
My wife is Hungarian and has family in the area we are looking at, we both live in the uk with our son and we have also already enquired in a good few properties but as we are relying on her family members the places are anyways sold before we get to make an offer or get someone to view them.

I have read the forums here and it seems that you need a lawyer to deal with everything, can someone recommendable a company or how to find a lawyer for this and some of the steps required for purchasing?

Many thanks in advance

Lawyers are relatively easy to find just by Google.  Trustworthy ones are much harder.  Don't use any lawyers recommended by agents or sellers as they could be in cahoots.  Use your own and preferably someone who can be vouched for.   

Your other half should be able to find one she likes easily enough.   Might cost you some money in the transaction.  They usually charge a percentage.  Seems ridiculous to me as the work is the same.  You might be able to get a fixed price deal. 

One of the things worth doing is coming to Hungary and driving around the selected area looking for signs.  Properties can be for sale for years and are not advertised via agents as no-one wants to pay their fees.   

Your in-laws might see something if they drive around looking.  But if they aren't property minded, they might not know what you want. 

The COVID19 issue will probably stop you coming here in the mid to short term.

If you buy a house, make sure the boundaries are properly marked.  We found we were missing 30m2 and the neighbours had it.  No accurate surveying was available back when the "boundary" was established.  Took us 3-4 years to get our land back.   If in any doubt, get a professional survey of the buildings and boundaries.

BTW, don't know your circumstances but if you buy property for your kids but it's not uncommon here to retain an ability to use it yourself and not to be sold until you've gone (to either place up or down) or give permission for it to be sold.   While kids always start off as angels, some of them go off the rails later or get influenced by wrong 'uns.

We know someone here who put property in their kid's name and that kid went bonkers hanging out with the wrong crowd and doing drugs.   Kid had borrowed money on the property for drugs and all sorts of horrible nonsense.  That meant paying off unsavoury people who were far more criminally minded and threatening.  It was all very unpleasant.  Good news is that the kid went into some rehab thing  and has emerged relatively sensible, has a steady job and is now off the drugs.  One never knows!

The suspicious by myself remark explained (but it might be very well that I am wrong), indeed via google a lot of the info should be available (we did already 6 years ago).
As for buying in kids name could lead to serious issues (I have seen it), but perhaps there (although I doubt it) serious tax reasons.

The initial post really should be enhanced.

Hi there, thanks for your reply.

Our intent is not to make a profit or break even, its to have someone occupy the property, and to at least help towards paying for maintenance etc. Over the years

Looking for a house or flat, I know they both come with different concerns, the in laws would help in checking the place and any other help you can do in person.
The area is in the better areas nearish to miskolc

Bicey wrote:

...
The area is in the better areas nearish to Miskolc

Miskolc should be easy to rent - university students would be an option as a source of tenants.

My BIL has an apartment in Budapest near one of the Unis and some of the other apartments are rented out to students.  Very little problem getting students to rent if the price is right.

***

fluffy2560 wrote:

until you've gone (to either place up or down)

Stairway to heaven or highway to hell, haha! 

atomheart wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

until you've gone (to either place up or down)

Stairway to heaven or highway to hell, haha! 

Oooo....nice.

Both have considerable merits. 

I think I'd go out with Highway to Hell but the rock bit of Stairway to Heaven really is a top bit of music in of itself. 

Being a bit of a wannabe rebel, I think I might even go for Rage Against the Machine's Wake Up. 

After all that plays when we all return from the Matrix!

Hi Bicey,

Lol, lots of people offering unsolicited advice. I don't understand why it's so difficult to just directly give an answer to a given question. Ingatlan.com is a great site for finding properties for sale in Hungary. You can change the language to English. Helpers is an all-in-one legal firm specializing in expat services. They helped me with my residency and were wonderful. They can help you with your property purchase, as well as property management after the purchase. Not the cheapest option but they make everything very easy so in my opinion it's worth it. Their website is helpers.hu

Hope this was helpful!

David

Thank you David, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thank goodness for you.

Perhaps I should be arrogant, or just feel lucky, we had our holiday routine (4 weeks per year for a period of 10 years), 2 week in Eastern Europe and 2 weeks exotic.
I already became tired of my job and went looking for early retirement in Eastern Europe.
We have been to Hungary, Serbia, Poland, Romania, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia and passed through some other countries. (we have not been in Bulgaria an probably should have).
In the end we chose Hungary and still a very good country (we chose the area of Heviz  (expensive though) (good infrastructure, obviously Heviz lake)).

I do like Hungary, but I am fearful that things (and especially prices) will go up to Western European standards. We moved here in 2014 and benefitted from the property boom, now we are looking at Georgia and Turkey (Alanya).
We do like Hungary, people I like, cultural environment (concerts in abundance (pre-corona), infra-structure (even health), but prices, prices....

Bottom line, I like to live as if I was rich (but I am not).
Not too many years to live anymore, what do I need, regular restaurants, theather (concerts), walking in the city, enjoy good espresso, cigarrete, alcohol,....

We moved from one country to another quite frequently and I think I still can do it (also appreciating taxes and financials).

Hungary is GOOD to live, but in 5 years not a country to live like a king with limited means.

Bottom (as a personal perception) line probably good to buy (not to rent)  even if things went up with 100%. The house we have in Hungary would probably cost EUR 1.5 mln in Luxembourg (here in Hungary a fraction).

I  know with Hungarian inheritence laws if you or your wife should pass, it is automatic that 50% of your property goes to your children/son.
The surviving spouse does have to right to remain in the house if they chose to do so.
The children also have the legal right to sell off their share at any time.
In less everything is legally documented this is the law.
My MIL had her estate divided up the way she wanted. She wrote out one child who already had land from her and wasn't exactly helpful in her ld age.
A notary can take care of these issues without having to pay a pricey lawyer. They have all the legal papers and many powers that are almost like an attorney.
Our flat is in my husband's name,I have no issues with that and will hand over to our son whatever is coming to him.
I am not that into owning things, as long as I have a place to rest my head in peace.
I rather liked Poland but as neither of us speak Polish it wouldn't be so easy moving there.
I'd love living where my father was born, a beautiful tiny village near a lake in SE Poland with a population of 150 people, near Gorlice, the small city.
Perhaps moving to N. Hungary would be a nice compromise.

doldroyd wrote:

Ingatlan.com is a great site for finding properties for sale in Hungary.

The "problem" with such sites is you will pay a hefty premium. If you have more money to waste than time, then yes, they can hook you up with your dream purchase.

But if one is more on a budget, or enjoys the fun of that "barn find", and to pay less, then such online sites are certainly not ideal.

Quite frankly, I have seen Ingatlan sales signs on properties, and checking online I often laugh out loud how much they ask. Since I actually know the prices the local actually sell to each other for, and it usually a lot less. That is such sites may invoke a hefty expat tax on you.

Simply something to think about.

Taltos167 wrote:

doldroyd wrote:

Ingatlan.com is a great site for finding properties for sale in Hungary.

The "problem" with such sites is you will pay a hefty premium. If you have more money to waste than time, then yes, they can hook you up with your dream purchase.

But if one is more on a budget, or enjoys the fun of that "barn find", and to pay less, then such online sites are certainly not ideal.

Quite frankly, I have seen Ingatlan sales signs on properties, and checking online I often laugh out loud how much they ask. Since I actually know the prices the local actually sell to each other for, and it usually a lot less. That is such sites may invoke a hefty expat tax on you.

Simply something to think about.

I suppose this might be true, but not according to everyone in my (Hungarian) wife's family we talked to. We found our house in Budaörs on ingatlan, and we paid fair market price for it. My father in law has found multiple properties on ingatlan. My wife's aunt, uncle, and grandparents recommended it when we were looking for our house. They were all born and raised in Hungary. I work in Kecskemét and acquaintances of mine found their apartment on there. Anyone selling a house in this market is going to want it to reach the widest audience possible, so it's going to end up on ingatlan. Unless you have ages to find some really old people in the countryside without smartphones willing to sell you their house, I'm not sure how much better a deal you're going to get. My wife's grandfather has an Instagram and he's 85 so even that is unlikely these days.

Now Helpers is definitely going to charge you a premium for the ease and convenience they offer, but my experience with them was excellent, and for the amount of time they saved me the premium was absolutely worth it.

doldroyd wrote:

we paid fair market price for it

The concept of "fair market price" is actually somewhat misleading and over used by small scale property purchasers.

Actually, there are a number or ways to measure "value" of a property, and "fair market price" is the most problematic as it assumes a perfect world, where both parties (seller and buyer) have a total and complete set of information about the "value" of the property. But such is, in reality, never truly encountered. Total understanding needs include so much information, no buyer really knows it all. But should include as a minimum such information as a complete independent appraisal of the property, and a full understanding why one would be willing to pay more than the appraised rate (or not), etc.

Simply because some relatives also used a web site to make a purchase is in no way or form a reason to use it, or to suggest others do so. To get a more "true" fair market price, one must spend a lot of time getting a lot of additional information before making such a statement honestly.

For example, sites that advertise on an international scale will command international prices (and they can vacillate between being a sellers market or a buyers market -- currently I would call them a sellers market, and buyer beware). Which is maybe why the seller is posting there -- to attract a higher price than they would from most locals. But a web site is sill only one "market". To shock free market aficionados, the ideal that there is only one "market" is open to all is not necessarily true. Especially with real estate. Local and sub markets also exist. At many levels and for many reasons. And not understanding that is how some buyers will pay more than they should.

There are many reasons why someone would sell for less than what would find on a web site. In fact, seeing a listing on a web site, many smart realtors will start to deposit their business cards into houses in the same area. Some people may be open to selling, and may be out of a web site market, thus sell for less. So, no, one does not need to go to rural areas to get a better deal. Only a few hours of leg work may secure you a savings in the Ft millions. In fact, if you live in area that is experiencing a housing price bubble, you may see notes or business cards in your mail box asking if you want to sell. Such little work, can have large rewards.

How do I know? Because I have been doing this for many years.

Taltos167 wrote:

doldroyd wrote:

we paid fair market price for it

The concept of "fair market price" is actually somewhat misleading and over used by small scale property purchasers.

Actually, there are a number or ways to measure "value" of a property, and "fair market price" is the most problematic as it assumes a perfect world, where both parties (seller and buyer) have a total and complete set of information about the "value" of the property. But such is, in reality, never truly encountered. Total understanding needs include so much information, no buyer really knows it all. But should include as a minimum such information as a complete independent appraisal of the property, and a full understanding why one would be willing to pay more than the appraised rate (or not), etc.

Simply because some relatives also used a web site to make a purchase is in no way or form a reason to use it, or to suggest others do so. To get a more "true" fair market price, one must spend a lot of time getting a lot of additional information before making such a statement honestly.

For example, sites that advertise on an international scale will command international prices (and they can vacillate between being a sellers market or a buyers market -- currently I would call them a sellers market, and buyer beware). Which is maybe why the seller is posting there -- to attract a higher price than they would from most locals. But a web site is sill only one "market". To shock free market aficionados, the ideal that there is only one "market" is open to all is not necessarily true. Especially with real estate. Local and sub markets also exist. At many levels and for many reasons. And not understanding that is how some buyers will pay more than they should.

There are many reasons why someone would sell for less than what would find on a web site. In fact, seeing a listing on a web site, many smart realtors will start to deposit their business cards into houses in the same area. Some people may be open to selling, and may be out of a web site market, thus sell for less. So, no, one does not need to go to rural areas to get a better deal. Only a few hours of leg work may secure you a savings in the Ft millions. In fact, if you live in area that is experiencing a housing price bubble, you may see notes or business cards in your mail box asking if you want to sell. Such little work, can have large rewards.

How do I know? Because I have been doing this for many years.

So I should have clarified. The initial price listed on this site, or pretty much any site, will almost definitely be higher than market value. We used the site to find our property, and negotiated the price down significantly. If you don't have local knowledge to help you with this, you'll absolutely end up paying above “market value.” I assumed this was obvious enough to not require saying. I'm saying that if you are living outside of the country, and your in-country contacts aren't getting you information quickly enough, and you can't/don't want to travel due to the virus, a site like this is a good place to see what's out there. Maybe this person has no problem paying several million HUF above what a Miskolc local would pay for the same property. He's already said he doesn't really care about even breaking even, he just doesn't want it sitting empty, so getting the absolute best deal probably isn't the highest priority. You can always make more money, you can't get your time back.

That being said, finding fair market value is incredibly simple. A property is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. I've worked in construction and real estate my entire life. My father-in-law invests in real estate as an over 1 billion HUF a year side business. He owns dozens of properties. We're pretty educated in regards to property values and acquisitions.

doldroyd wrote:

So I should have clarified.

Good answer.

doldroyd wrote:

That being said, finding fair market value is incredibly simple. A property is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

That is only one definition. And there is actually more than one definition. Here is a link to a more complex answer:

https://www.realtor.com/advice/buy/what … ket-value/

doldroyd wrote:

My father-in-law invests in real estate as an over 1 billion HUF a year side business. He owns dozens of properties. We're pretty educated in regards to property values and acquisitions.

When one gets into large sums, then one is somewhat immune to the costs experienced by many expats, where small amounts (3 to 10 M Ft) can matter, which is not something someone dealing in the billions Ft range will "worry about".

So I do wonder if stating this you kind of out classed yourself to the "average" expat looking for the best deal on a property, and maybe are not the best advise giver for individual property purchase information.....

Taltos167 wrote:

That is only one definition. And there is actually more than one definition. Here is a link to a more complex answer:

https://www.realtor.com/advice/buy/what … ket-value/

I think it's a British/American thing. Having now spent a whole lot of time in both American and Hungarian business meetings, I've noticed decisions that would have been made in an hour back home get debated for days here. Not a bad thing, just different and it was something to get used to. We typically just want the quickest answer that gets us reasonably close to what we're looking for. If I can spend 15 seconds getting a pretty good solution, or 4 hours getting a really really really good solution, I'll take the 15 second solution. Unless it's health related, then give me the really good solution 😆

Taltos167 wrote:

So I do wonder if stating this you kind of out classed yourself to the "average" expat looking for the best deal on a property, and maybe are not the best advise giver for individual property purchase information.....

That would be a reasonable assumption, but in my experience, the wealthier the person, the more careful they are with money. I am not a particularly wealthy person, however my father-in-law certainly is. He'll spend 40M on a car but if he thinks he's being over-charged 500.000 on a business deal, it's going to be a big problem. He's quite the genius and I've learned an incredible amount from him, the property market in Hungary being one of the things I try to pick up as much information as I can about.

I answered the question the way I did because the OP didn't say anything about getting the best deal. There was no mention of financial consideration in his post. He wanted a convenient way to find properties for sale in Hungary from abroad, and he wanted a contact to a lawyer he can work with in English. If he said he wanted to get the absolute best deal possible, I would've answered the question completely differently, and would agree with everything you've said.