The lessons of the crisis in Spain

After experiencing the havoc that the Spanish government created in our lives due to the virus hysteria and experiencing how bad health care and veterinary care really is here under these circumstances and before, we decided we will leave this country asap preferably end of the year.
Life is too short to expose oneself to being jailed at home and bankrupted by government forced unemployment.
There are other countries where far less draconian measures left people free to choose and still avoid contagion on their own while still continuing to earn a living.
We also feel that the bill for this foolishness is still to be paid by raising taxes locally and we are not prepared to pay it as it was not our choice but that of others.
Our choice will be a country where reasons prevails predominantly. Countries compete with one another for having the right people and Spain just did not make much of a competitive effort, quite the opposite.
We will miss the 5 years of beautiful surroundings we enjoyed here, but we cannot risk our lives and livelihood to enjoy that. Other places have the same without that exposure.

donkeyhote wrote:

To a degree agree with you
But look at sit in the UK, they are totally clueless. Look at panic over bog rolls ,supermarket shelves empty.

It actually happened everywhere in the world. Australia, America as well as the UK as you said.

donkeyhote wrote:

To a degree agree with you
But look at sit in the UK, they are totally clueless. Look at panic over bog rolls ,supermarket shelves empty.
That never happened here.
In my area which is predominantly farming they are ignorant or do not obey the rules.
Do you have any idea how much the chancellor borrowed in the UK to keep economy afloat?!
The USA likewise
It would be interesting to know what countries you put up as alternatives.
All the best

At this moment we are considering countries that left their citizens much more free like Portugal, Sweden, Russia, Austria, Croatia or the USA (the press in Europe is misrepresenting what happens in the USA). Even Germany or the UK are far more preferable, more free. Italy was also not as strict as Spain and is above all already opening up fast. 
These are all countries where people want to live not exist like living dead. That is different in defaitist Spain.
Spain has become a third world country more like Venezuela.
And shortages were ad are still clearly visible in Spain. But wait till they develop further which is due soon since foreign workers were not able to come harvest and they represent 85% of agricultural work force.
Laziness with continuation of siestas and Sunday closings, red tape, envious terrorizing workers who continued working during the lockdown and  government violence against entrepreneurs shutting down their businesses and tying those reopening hand and feet, the Spanish formula, are not the right things to apply now but it is what is happening.
many businesses here in the area which is dependent on tourism have gone bust and will never return, 900,000 of Spaniards and their families already have not received benefits for months, the lines of the hungry at charities are several blocks long and growing.
This is rare in most other countries so anything less is already better. The sun can be found elsewhere as well with less hassle.
On top of this comes the low grade health care system here and the fact that the state is able to nationalize private health care at its whim like it did now (it eve  nationalized the nursing homes with the stroke of a pen).
The veterinary care is also subpar here and typical of how little Spaniards care about pets. This is a country that is hard on those who love pets, very pet-unfriendly. Quite different from for example Italy or the UK.
This is no country where one can feel safe, where one's life and property is protected. Quite the contrary.

I moved here from the US after Trump was elected.   ***

I think that decision will save my life.   I am retired so staying home is no big deal for me. 

I was surprised that I took to being locked down better than I thought I would.   I also decided to use the time productively.    I learned to cook new dishes, got on a daily exercise regime and lost 9 kilos.   

Spain may have its share of problems but there is an organized plan, and unity of the country, for the most part.   

I am not at all surprised by the massive toll this virus has taken in the States.   They have no health system, and people struggle to make ends meet when times as good.   People will go to work, even if they are sick as they have no savings and no sick leave policy in many jobs.   ***

*** Only retirees or pensioners can still support families where the breadwinners have been out of work or had to shut a business for good, while high rents for their premises were impossible to even pay later. Governments come and go and it was good to notice some uprising in May. Hence, it may be too early for us ex-pats to throw the towel to leave sunny Spain.

You can judge by my Instagram photos, Facebook, or by my website the Tenerife holiday home insider that I have been a very independent, active, and happy women until the lockdown started on Tenerife. Mind I am over 70 years old. Naturally, I perceive all measures for this age group as extremely discriminating. Nature excursions on foot with the help of Titsa buses are now impossible for me, as the two hours for sports, walks and the like between 10 and Noon are a useless grant.  Naturally, sudden health issues, have sprung up due to the government restrictions for my age group. Will it change with the so-called new normal phase? Absolutely not, as masks will be with us for quite a while. Mind they are so unhealthy for young and old that long trips with Titsa transport will become no brainers.  I would move to Sweden, if only it wasn't so cold. Sweden seems to be the only totally democratic place I can think of.  Would vaccines make a difference? Yes, they would but I wouldn't risk them until there's a most acceptable track record.

Thank you very much for this comment, Donkeyhote

the press in Europe is misrepresenting what happens in the USA

Not at all. They are under-representing it.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/09/why-sta … n-ppe.htmlhttps://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics … c-responsehttps://chicago.suntimes.com/coronaviru … oronavirushttps://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/0 … ure-123166

900,000 of Spaniards and their families already have not received benefits for months, the lines of the hungry at charities are several blocks long and growing

Spanish government just extended the package that prevents people from being fired or losing their income. In contrast, in US, you are basically on your own.

Sweden!

Here is how they ended up.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/sweden-co … guidelines

As a result...

https://www.euronews.com/2020/04/16/swe … ecord-high

Swedish government was granted extraordinary powers to address the situation. Looks like some kind of 'antidemocratic measures' coming their way, now, doesnt it...

...

Basically all the countries which had lighter responses had those because they didnt start their curves yet. Spain and Italy were the first countries in the West to start. Best example is Sweden, who did 'voluntary lockdown', and ended up with higher death rates than its neighbors.

Certain frightening, despotic actions that are not constitutional seem to take place in the central government of Spain

Nothing unconstitutional took place in Spain. Everything which Spanish government did was enabled by Spanish constitution.

Spain is not US, South Africa, Germany or France. Spanish constitution is not American constitution or constitutions of any such other country.

Furthermore, every single country in the world have clauses in their constitutions or specific laws to enable such extreme measures if the situation requires them. There are no exceptions.

Its really amazing how some people immigrate to Spain and expect to have it like some other country - like US, or wherever.

Spain is not US or some other similar country. The mentality and behavior that are the norm in US, do not apply in Spain. Nor the expectations which people are used to from being in those societies. If people immigrate to Spain while having expectations of living in a little America or something like that they will be disappointed.

As far as i know, many Americans are coming to Spain because of the healthcare here. To avoid the brutality and sociopathy of American privatized healthcare system.

But when here, they still expect the same 'freedom and free market' environment which they are used to in US - the very things which created that murderous privatized healthcare system in America! Contradiction at best, naivete at worst...

...

As far as responses go, Spain and Italy were the only countries in the West which took swift and drastic responses to the pandemic. Italy was slower, but Spain reacted faster when its curve started, taking example from Italy's case.

By the time Spain started its lockdown, the corporate media in Anglosphere was criticizing Spain by calling the measures extreme, 'antidemocratic', overreacting and so on.

They arent criticizing anymore. Turns out that pandemics do not give a damn about any ideology or people's freedom. Who would have thought...

Spanish government not only implemented a national quarantine, but also froze utilities, taxes, evictions, mortgages and many other obligations. On top of that it not only they provided unemployment pay to people who cant go to work, but also distributed funds to businesses to be able to stay afloat during the quarantine. Even autonomos got paid if they couldnt work outside - of course, autonomos who were not dodging taxes by underreporting or doing under the table work, but hey...

Many field hospitals were constructed, help from China, Cuba was received, Spain started receiving medical supplies from China as soon as they were available - even as US was trying to pirate supplies from other countries and US states were fighting with each other to acquire supplies, Spain's sane foreign policy and good relations with other countries paid Spain back big time.

https://www.politico.eu/article/berlin- … any-to-us/

At this pont note that Spain and Italy had the most deadly known strain of the virus. This cannot be overstated. There were 2 strains in Italy at the start apparently, one was later discovered to be most deadly strain ever found. Those strains came to Spain very early, or they may have already been here. Note that both strains were found not to have come from China, so where they came from is not yet known.

Despite that and a large swath of very vulnerable older population, Spain went for keeping everyone alive and succeeded spectacularly when comparing to other countries in the West. Barring China and South Korea who went full postal in minimizing deaths, Spain is the foremost Western country which started its curve early, had the most lethal strain from the start, had a very elderly population, had to fly in the dark and yet came out with minimum impact. Look at US, UK, Brazil and see the reality of a bad response. Or even France, whose president had to publicly apologize for screwing it up.

Of course, this relative success in Spain in protecting people is due to the current government being socialist+communist - their priority is saving the people instead of the stock market. When you check the Western countries which screwed it up, you will exclusively find countries which have centrist or right wing neoliberal governments who tried to protect stock market as long as they could by delaying a lockdown, then keeping the lockdown as minimal as possible, shying away from providing help to their people financially, keeping the budget spent on testing, prevention and treatment at a minimum to not disturb corporate tax breaks, then even trying to open early to keep the stock market going.

While US literally bailed out corporations while giving a one time 'up to' $1200 check to 'those who qualify', UK is rushing to reopen because Spain and Italy started to reopen and Tory government just couldnt risk appearing behind and therefore 'worse'. Such little matter the lives of people for neoliberal governments - stock market comes first.

If such a right wing or centrist government was in power in Spain, you'd see the hell that would ensue - the right wing government which currently governs Communidad de Madrid even tried to privatize healthcare during the pandemic. After using the funds sent by the central government to provide tax breaks to various enterprises, including bingo halls. Apparently privatizing healthcare to pay off for bingo hall tax breaks was a much better way to save lives, after the neoliberal mentality. Not unlike the US bailout, which both sides of the aisle in US voted for.

All in all im pretty happy with the response of Spanish government in dealing with this major global crisis. I feel safe.

Moreover, this pandemic is likely not over due to many other countries not having started their curves, and some not having taken proper measures to fight it. Thats a much better reason to feel safe in Spain because the government is disposed to protect its people over the stock market.

Asian countries, especially China, are well prepared and they have methods and systems in place to manage outbreaks. Its not a magical mystery how China built a 1000 bed field hospital in 10 days - they did it before, they had the teams and procedures ready to do wherever it was needed.

In the west, there was nothing. Aside from ~40 years of privatization, cutting healthcare, national preparedness for tax breaks for rich corporations. This is the result.

Pandemics can happen anytime. Entire world needs to take lessons from this, and prepare their national responses and set the systems to manage any pandemic in place.

For it could have been something worse, and it still can be something worse: It could have been a more virulent ebola. Then we would be in knee deep s***. As bad as this thing is now, it is not as bad as ebola or black plague. Which should be a wake up call for everyone and everyone should be prepared for the next potential pandemic which can come out of anywhere.

May be New New Zealand will be a good compromise to live with eventual future viruses or whatever you want to call them.  I wish I was younger. The spooky situation of the latest near-normality in malls alone puts me off.  Masks make me transpire terribly, choke me, and give me strange health issues. I have been to the capital to look for a rare mobile phone battery to buy. I didn't enjoy that trip on the public bus and hated the strange new life in Santa Cruz.

Tenerife as well as its mainland Spain are unlikely to have reached any immunity to the virus because of a very drastic lockdown.
That worries me the most.
I am quite sure that I myself have immunity to Coronaviruses in general as I have survived my three days with initial fever, headache, ear-ache, bone pains, and little appetite. This proves to me that the danger has little to do with age. Mind I am in the most discriminated age group.  However, all is a question of immunity and general health.

The latter will deteriorate with me, though. Why? My usual active live style has gone out the window and I can't see it coming back in time. I just don't enjoy leaving the house anymore. It has no more charm. By the way, I had a very bad flue when I was quite young. We didn't vaccinate,  then. We also immunized the kids in the neighborhood with Chickenpox by mingling, contrary to injecting chemistry. Hence, I know now I will never get deadly Shingles. Just a mild form is possible, as it happened to my mother who was born in 2014. She also had natural immunity.

Hello everyone,

First of all, I would like to thank you for your responses. We very much appreciate all of you being willing to share your experiences considering that we are going through particularly difficult times.

We can only hope for things to get better in the future for everyone.

I would also like to point out that we had to go over some of the posts of this thread and remove a few. This is a reminder that political posts which convey one's points of view and opinions are not accepted on the forum.

Please have a look at our code of conduct for our posting guidelines: https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=191082

I would request you to kindly keep that in mind in your future posts.

Hoping that you and your closed ones are staying safe and healthy.

Thanks,

Diksha
Team Expat.com

Thank you very much, donkeyhote
I know I could try Carrefour mainland Spain
But I so much wanted to see
what the Capital of Tenerife looks like right now
Carrefour in Santa Cruz stopped stocking it, a year ago.
I am still having another phone. So that's OK.
There's no rush
I might even find it in Arona Tenerife but,
don't feel like doing trips now

As suggested I would have thought that a search online, Amazon etc should locate the battery you require.   

Not having the details of what you need I was unable to make a search and therefore to I am not able to point you in a more helpful direction.

Just an aside: People who have had chickenpox are the ones who need a shingles vaccine. Shingles is the remains of the chickenpox virus, after decades of hibernation, coming out into your system for a “flare up”. Sequelae can be very unpleasant and there’s even a theory of a relationship between shingles and dementia. I highly recommend getting the shingles vaccine.

Since the virus is new, its long term effects are unknown. Therefore it would be best to minimize exposure to the virus as long as possible.

Back in the earlier times vaccines were scarce and people still got 'natural immunity', but society paid a high price for it - my father in law had polio cripple one of his legs, for example. That's now 'natural immunity' works.

Neither i would trust the vaccines in US due to deregulation and sociopathic profiteering of corporations in US, thanks to that deregulated space, but this is Spain, inside Europe. Not only Spain has proper regulations, but also Eu regulations make things safer. I dont see any issue with receiving the covid vaccine - especially if it comes from China, who seem to be very, very serious about dealing with the virus. In contrast as i follow developments in US due to my hobby of following foreign policy, i see innumerable corporations trying to rush a vaccine to the market to make a profit - and CDC 'fast tracking' them. Scary.

i see innumerable corporations trying to rush a vaccine to the market to make a profit - and CDC 'fast tracking' them. Scary.

definitely, there is something 'worldwide fishy' going on for real

nevertheless eventually - only time -
shall put a sort of - kind of sense - to this sudden massive chaos

 

Even somebody with an IQ of a five year old can see that something fishy is going on

no wonder