Gun ownership in DR

If we were to move to DR what would it take to own/bring gun or guns there? I know it would be after citizenship. Could I then bring what I now have? Or can they be purchased? Thanks

You have to purchase here. Approval can be sought with residencia. It's not easy and not cheap and guns are expensive I am told.

Go back to the USA with your bs guns.  Don't need that on the island...

You are correct we don't need more guns here!   But lets be nice about it.....  :D

I agree... I'm moving from US to get away from so many guns! I am hoping DR has less guns and less of a drug problem. I'm not expecting DR to be paradise...but less of those two things would be nice.🌞🌴

So  there is a gun problem here and there are issues with drugs.  The drug issue is not like the USA but we are a well known transportation route for drugs!  That in and of itself causes problems.

For guns,  you will avoid them for the most part by staying out of "dodgy" places and neighborhoods. But they are out there.  You need to be aware.

there are fewer guns in DR and most of the gun violence is gang/drug related.  Not mad people shooting up shopping malls.  Hence no need to bring more guns.  Just no need for it here unless you into drug crime.  Jeez, the obsession with guns will only bring destruction.  There is no logic or positivity in bringing a gun to a country.  REGARDLESS

I dodge the dodgy!😂 the drugs here are getting worse all the time, I feel like your an exception not to be addicted...sad.

65% of gun crime in DR occurs between 6 pm and 6 am which says a lot.

Much of it is gang related in the poorer barrios of cities which will not be places that expats will frequent. And there is a strong link between delinquency, drugs and gun crimes.

Drug use and illegal gun ownership is widespread in the campo too, having lived and seen it first hand.

Many longer term expats will refrain from going out that often at night.

Polotics, religion, & guns are subjects that are never resolved.

the tinker40 :

Polotics, religion, & guns are subjects that are never resolved.

Agreed but this is not the USA.

Since 2016 there is a new gun law in DR which has the clear stated aim of controlling firearm ownership in the civilian population with the objective of gradually disarming the civilian population. It is a  tough approach but this is DR and it takes time to implement and the rules will change.

Anyone coming here and with the wish to have a firearm should consider these points:

1. You will be one of the 5% of the civilian population owning a legal firearm. If we add in the likely illegal arms and add in police and military persons, perhaps one of 10%. The vast majority do not have firearms and most do not want them.
2. Your firearm will be for self defense only protecting your your person, home, family and property and the use of that firearm will be strictly for this. Now, if you as an expat should maim or kill someone in the process of what you see as protecting family as above, you will be challenged to prove it against perhaps grieving Dominicans. And we know what happens in this event with foreigners! You invariably lose. The new law limits the the permitted firearms to short distance protection. Penalties for misuse are very severe with terms of imprisonment and fines..
3. As stated earlier, guns are very expensive in DR and difficult to obtain for the average delinquent, and so obtaining a gun by force and violent force from known owners becomes an attractive option. We read regularly about police being ambushed and killed for their firearm so don't discount them coming after you if they know you are an owner too.
4. In DR, you just do not challenge a gunman pointing a gun at you. He will shoot you with the slightest blink. So say if confronted by a gunman on a motorbike wanting to rob you whilst in your car, you hand over what he asks for and live. Being macho trying to reach for your gun will get you a coffin.
5. The types of guns and rifles allowed are limited generally to revolvers, pistols and sports rifles and not automatic in any way and should be stored in a safe place. A list of banned firearms is updated annually by police and military.
6. Licenses get renewed with the various tests in Santo Domingo.
7. A license is needed for owning a gun and a second license to carry a gun.
8. The maximum personal ownership is two firearms.

Like the many, I don't own, nor want to own a gun, nor see any benefit owning one in DR. I cannot think of one instance of living across the length and breadth of DR over many years needing gun protection in any way. But I was brought up in a country without a gun culture, but everyone to his own, however respect what DR demands knowing there is no debate here for an expat.

Very good info.

That is a wonderful summary,  thanks!

However, might you be able to provide a link or source where I might gain more information on this law?

I'd like to research it in depth, and aren't having any luck with online searches.

Try  Google:  Ley No. 631-16, del 2 de agosto de 2016, para el Control y Regulación de Armas, Municiones y Materiales Relacionados. G. O. No. 10854 del 5 de agosto de 2016.

Here is an article translated summarizing some aspects of the new law:

https://translate.google.com/translate? … rev=search

Do you speak fluent spanish? You will need it to research properly

When the bad guys obey the laws, we can think about a gun free society. Until then, only the bad dudes will have them. In an ideal society there will be no crime, no rapes, abuse of women, no drug cartels, no child abuse, no crime of any kind. Somehow the facts of reality escape those who only castigate, & never solve the real worlds problems.  I have had the real world intrude into my life.  Three violent armed robberies in the course o 4 months. A business owner. As such since I had grown up hunting & fishing to feed my 5 brothers & sisters, I decided enough of this shit. Six weeks later with a carry permit & being an NRA  instrutor at our local gun club, giving exhibitions of defensive tactics, I was no longer a prime target for the armed crooks.  This was on the island neighbor  of ST. Croix.   It is a small island & my place was high profile.  The DR has different problems.  Most of the violent crime is away from the tourist areas.  Why should the locals be denied home defense, Bear spay, stun guns & other non lethal defense items are grounds for arrest.  The answers are clear but won't be implemented.  I don't advocate breaking the laws, but I do believe in defending you & yours.

Thank you for your honest and informative reply. The other response as to lumping guns with politics and religion is at best misguided, I do however appreciate any and all responses to the post. Thank you again.

I prefer we leave all of that out of this.  This country allows guns. If anyone chooses to live here then you are a guest and live by the rules. Unless you get citizenship then you don't even have the right to try to change it.

Everyone is allowed an opinion but that wasn't the purpose of this thread as has been stated.

To those who asked the questions, have you got your answers?

Thankfully yes.

Awesome thanks  Danimatt!

Only via Google Translate!!

O

gregtanian :

there are fewer guns in DR and most of the gun violence is gang/drug related.  Not mad people shooting up shopping malls.  Hence no need to bring more guns.  Just no need for it here unless you into drug crime.  Jeez, the obsession with guns will only bring destruction.  There is no logic or positivity in bringing a gun to a country.  REGARDLESS

Okay...but my limited experience indicates otherwise.

On my one trip to DR/Santo Domingo, every single Mall and larger store I visited had armed security.  The mall I visited (forgot the name, but it is one of the newer luxury-oriented malls) at one door had an AR or M4-armed guard in full tactical gear, helmet, all done up in camo patterns and (apparently) body armor.  Also had a large-caliber side-arm + plenty of spare ammo in magazines.  Stood at the Mall Entrance, appeared to rotate around to other entrances with numerous other armed security guards.

If there's so few guns...why do so many places have armed security? 

Also, our hotel staff (quietly and privately) warned us of possibility of armed (firearm) assaults  being not uncommon on the margins of the Zona Colonia.  I have no idea if that is true -- I didn't go party in the Zona -- but that two different staff members undertook to give us those private warnings seems quite contrary to your statements.
--- This makes Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic, the ONLY place I have ever visited over my 61 years, where the hotel staffs warned me of armed threats in the local area. 

I'm not baiting you, in any way.   It's just that observations from my one visit appear to suggest the opposite of your statements. 

Please, advise what I missed.

Many thanks,



ExpatRusher

Armed security is a long time habit and in stores or malls of higher value you will see this.  Go to the largest mall in the country you won't see this. They have unarmed security in most locations. 

In a country of this much poverty there are issues. No argument. 

As to the hotels warning you, also pretty common. Often there are other reasons for this.  Some get commissions by sending you to their Taxi drivers. Others don't want the hassle of dealing with an issue should it occur.

And some areas are NOT safe to walk alone at night. Absolutely correct and when those warnings come, listen. 

It's tough knowing which is real and which isnt.

Also, FYi, often those security guards, don't actually have bullets! Again hard to know when they do and when they dont.

here is an idea for the person who wants to know about getting a gun in the DR.

if ownership of a gun, or guns, is such an important aspect of moving to the DR, why don't you consider staying where you are?  you are going to get the same answer for just about any country you want to move to. you are not going to be able to walk into COSTCO in Barbados and put an AR15 in your cart. they do not sell Bushmasters in a pharmacy in St Barts. the ease of purchase of firearms in the USA is not a practice which travels well....

any other questions?

to expatrusher:

During the holiday period, with so much additional cash in circulation, additional police supported by the military are to be seen throughout the capital and elsewhere in a passive role. For sure they are stationed at each and every Mall for our security from the delinquents who are notably active at this time of year. That's good!

There was, however, widely reported preventative action taken by police in several popular entertainment locations, and Av. Venezuela comes to mind, where they removed firearams from individuals in some of those locations (most bars have notices stating no forearms or knives allowed) and also closed down a number for such breaches.

Whats is wrong in hotel staff cautioning guests that on the periphery of the Zona Colonial at night there is a need for caution because it is exactly in such locations where at late night streets are dark and quiet leading to some of the smaller nightspots and a lone unaware visitor becomes an ideal target for delinquents? ZC is one of the known locations in DR that attracts solo foreign visitors for the exotic late nightlife so they have become targets.

The continued attempt to suppress gun ownership and the associated criminal activity that goes with it in DR, was the reasoning for the new law and for sure it is a tall order to make any inroads when they are up against criminal gangs and drug runners. But, your observations are no reason to question the motives behind Congress here passing laws very recently to discourage gun ownership.

Many seem to misunderstand my objective. I am not interested in carrying a gun. I merely prefer to protect my home if I decided to move there. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs as am I. I was only asking about legal ownership in my home not about purchasing an AR atI Costco. The question was about the laws regarding ownership or bringing a firearm in my household belongings not meant to have a discussion over right or wrong. Thank you.

Danimatt.

I fully understand you completely.  Coming from America where our framers put in our Constitution, the right to bear arms didn't or includes robbing banks or shooting up malls.  It was to protect us.  It was written in 1776 and is more needed today. 

Different countries have different rules.  However, in America 99.99 % of people who own firearms, never shoot them except at a paper target.  I have owned rifles and pistols for over 50 years.  I have never used my pistols for gun violence.  I never had to.  They were bought to protect my self, loved ones and my home should anyone attempt to rob or harm us. The same thing holds true for the others in the 99.9% which probably include you.

Guns don't kill people.  People kill people.  So I concur with where you are coming from.  However, some or many on this site have not lived in America and have been raised with a different mindset.  They have probably not gone through the pain of losing loved ones by a gun by a murderer.  Possibly and maybe, they would view it different if their 10 year old daughter or husband was shot and seriously injured or killed.   Just maybe.

Yes, there are crazed individuals who use guns to kill people through robbery or other ways. 

In China, where I lived for 2.5 years, it is illegal and forbidden to own a gun.  Don't ever get caught with a gun in China.  They don't need guns.  Chinese are experts in using a knife or sword.  So if anyone breaks into their homes, they are on a level playing field.  Knife violence runs rampant in China, while virtually no gun violence.  And all Chinese have the right to carry and bear arms.  For over 5000 years.

In the Dominican Republic, if you own a gun for protection and never need to use it, like 99.99% of the people in America, then all that others have written on this blog, has no relevance.  And as suggested, limit it to your home which I would presume you will. 

When you leave your house and weapon, stay away from trouble and you will not find it and you will not need to carry it.

Yes, if you were ever to shoot someone who broke into your home, and shot the intruder, I would believe it would be ruled justifiable even by the local government.  They too want to reduce crime in the Dominican Republic.

An unused pistol in your home, no matter where you live on planet earth, other than countries like China that forbid them, and it sits in your home, as it did like mine for over 50 years, will never add to gun violence.

Thank you for the level headed response.

And this thread has run its course and will be closed. Thanks

My pleasure.  Emotional and personal feelings are not realistic.  Common sense always wins out with normal and sensible minds.

P.S.  Where are you from? Where are you moving to the Dominican Republic?  I am in Luperon.

cruffman :

here is an idea for the person who wants to know about getting a gun in the DR.

if ownership of a gun, or guns, is such an important aspect of moving to the DR, why don't you consider staying where you are?  you are going to get the same answer for just about any country you want to move to. you are not going to be able to walk into COSTCO in Barbados and put an AR15 in your cart. they do not sell Bushmasters in a pharmacy in St Barts. the ease of purchase of firearms in the USA is not a practice which travels well....

any other questions?

I

cruffman:  I understand your perspective.

Interesting to note, though, is that the new President of Brazil is gung ho on adding a "2nd Amendment" to the Brazilian Constitution, and is moving to first remove restrictions on gun ownership, and then act to encourage gun ownership.

Apparently, Brazil's long-standing efforts to reduce the presence of firearms didn't actually work; in fact, it's been proven a dismal failure.  Crime is rampant, at least in the larger cities and somewhat less in the smaller and less-populated areas. 

So, Brazilians elected President Bolsanaro to try a different approach. 

In about two years, we'll start seeing the results of these anticipated changes.   

My prediction:  Brazilian crime will be way, way down.   Overall deaths may be up for a short period, as criminals are culled from the population...but then they'll drop way, way down, also.  Law-abiding citizens will be far safer as a result.

Because that  is the pattern for pretty much every place firearms rights are protected and promoted.   In the USA, the states with the high rates of "gun violence" are, paradoxically, the states with the strictest gun control schemes.   And before anyone gets too excited about the idea of a "gun-free" Dominican Republic, it would do to recall that the vast majority of public shootings around the world occur in ... "gun-free zones." 

Conversely, In areas where wide-spread concealed carry rights are implemented, overall crime and violent crime both go way, way down.   Those are all facts you can look up; and in no state where concealed carry has been implemented, has crime gone up, nor have the much ballyhooed "shootouts" between armed citizens happened.  Turns out, the good guys can discern between good guys and bad guys.

I'll make another prediction here:  DR may go down this road of "zero firearms" in citizens hands, but in 10-20 years beleaguered citizens will vote in leaders to do what is Brazil is doing right now. 

But what would I know, of course.  Guess I'll just head down to the local pharmacy and buy a few dozen Bushmasters.  Because I can.


ExpatRusher

cruffman :

here is an idea for the person who wants to know about getting a gun in the DR.

if ownership of a gun, or guns, is such an important aspect of moving to the DR, why don't you consider staying where you are?  you are going to get the same answer for just about any country you want to move to. you are not going to be able to walk into COSTCO in Barbados and put an AR15 in your cart. they do not sell Bushmasters in a pharmacy in St Barts. the ease of purchase of firearms in the USA is not a practice which travels well....

any other questions?

cruffman :

here is an idea for the person who wants to know about getting a gun in the DR.

if ownership of a gun, or guns, is such an important aspect of moving to the DR, why don't you consider staying where you are?  you are going to get the same answer for just about any country you want to move to. you are not going to be able to walk into COSTCO in Barbados and put an AR15 in your cart. they do not sell Bushmasters in a pharmacy in St Barts. the ease of purchase of firearms in the USA is not a practice which travels well....

any other questions?

I

cruffman:  No, no questions.  I understand your perspective perfectly.

Interesting to note, though, is that the new President of Brazil is gung-ho on adding a "2nd Amendment" to the Brazilian Constitution, and is moving to first remove restrictions on gun ownership, and then actively encourage gun ownership.

Apparently, Brazil's long-standing efforts to reduce the presence of firearms didn't actually work; in fact, it's been proven a dismal failure.  Crime is rampant, at least in the larger cities and somewhat less in the smaller and less-populated areas.  Surprised?

So, Brazilians elected President Bolsanaro to try a different approach.  In about two years, we'll start seeing the results of these anticipated changes.   

My prediction:  Brazilian crime will be way, way down.   Overall deaths may be up for a short period, as criminals are culled from the population...but then they'll drop way, way down, also.  Law-abiding citizens will be far safer as a result.

Because that is the pattern for pretty much every place firearms rights are protected and promoted.   In the USA, the states with the high rates of "gun violence" are, paradoxically, the states with the strictest gun control schemes.   And before anyone gets too excited about the idea of a "gun-free" Dominican Republic, it would do to recall that the vast majority of public shootings around the world, as well as the deadliest (most deaths)  occur in ... "gun-free zones." 

Conversely, In areas where wide-spread concealed carry rights are implemented, overall crime and violent crime both go way, way down.   Those are all facts you can look up; and in no state where concealed carry has been implemented, has crime gone up, nor have the much ballyhooed "shootouts" between armed citizens happened.  Turns out, the good guys can discern between good guys and bad guys.

I'll make another prediction here:  DR may go down this road of "zero firearms" in citizens hands, but in 10-20 years beleaguered citizens will vote in leaders to do what is Brazil is doing right now. 

But what would I know, of course.  Guess I'll just head down to the local pharmacy and buy a few dozen Bushmasters.  Because I can.


ExpatRusher

My pleasure.  Emotional and personal feelings are not realistic.  Common sense always wins out with normal and sensible minds.

Cars don't kill people.  Knives don't kill people.  Guns don't kill people.  Hammers don't kill people.  Duct tape doesn't kill people.

People kill people!

We should not fall victim, to a person with a gun, knife, hammer or duct tape who break into our homes.  They are not there by our choice, and it doesn't matter to me, what weapon they have if any.  They are there to do harm or take your valuables.  None of which I will allow or agree to.  They are trespassing with bad intentions.  They are criminals.  Criminals who go to jail for being in my home.  And I am not allowed to defend my home and loved ones against criminals?  THAT my friends, is why the framers of the constitution of the United States put the Right to bear arms. And why myself and my fellow ex pat believe in having a gun in our homes

One caught or shot criminal in my home, to protect myself and my loved ones from some invading criminal?  Anyone who comes into my home, I will shoot first and ask questions later.  I don't care how old they are, the color of their skin.  They are an uninvited, criminal, trespassing on my property with very bad intentions.   They should have thought about the consequences for being a criminal, before breaking into my home.

If you go out in the Dominican Republic, put your cash and credit cards in separate locations. Put a small amount in a cheap wallet. Hide your regular wallet with credit cards and rest of your cash.  If on the street , and someone robs you, give them the cheap wallet.  Don't argue.  Put 1000 + or.  in 50 and 100 pesos folding money. 

However, if you stay in safe areas, it is highly unlikely that it will ever happen.

P.S.  Where are you from? Where are you moving to the Dominican Republic?  I am in Luperon.

Expat rusher.

Spot on.  You are absolutely correct.  Thanks for bringing up these documented facts.

P. S.  Criminals getting shot when they are in people's homes!   Now that is what drops the crime rates and eliminates a criminal from doing it again and again.  And possibly prevent a rape or murder, in your home or an other's, if they weren't stopped.  And a deterrent for others, before they break into someone's home.

I think we have bantered enough on this subject.  We tend to disagree, not to agree.  SOBEIT.  Let's move on.

To Lennoxnev:

Thanks for your kind explanation.  Just for reference of later readers:

1.  I wasn't in the DR during a holiday.  It was last summer.

2.  Interesting about gun confiscations...in gun-free zones.   Kind of makes my point for me.

3.  I'm not sure of what you meant in asking, "Whats is wrong in hotel staff cautioning guests...."  I don't think there's anything wrong with it.  I was rather thankful for the honesty and caring enough to warn me.   My only surprise was that it was the first place I've EVER stayed in, home or abroad, where anyone provided such warnings in such terse, earnest language and tones...and I used to stay in some dodgy places, when I was younger and poorer.

4.  I have not in any way criticized the DR for the new law; DR and its citizens have every right to enact every law they want to, within the limits of their Constitution.   
-- I may think a particular law is wise, or unwise.  But, as I'm not a citizen, I don't have a vote in the matter.  If I dislike a particular law enough, I can choose whether to visit a country, or not. 
-- I do think it fascinating to see DR starting down this particular road...just when Brazil has turned around 180 degrees on that path.  And I do predict that gun violence in DR will go up as the trend toward a gun-free DR takes place -- because that is what happens in nearly every gun-free zone around the planet.  There may be initial drops, but eventually they return to higher levels.
-- China may be the only exception to that rule in the entire world.  However, I wouldn't want to live in China, because of their totalitarian political regime.  As evidenced by their recent harassment and imprisonment of random travelers from abroad -- especially the US.

5.  Similarly...I'm confused about criticizing the DR Congress?  Didn't do that.  Perhaps I've been confused with another poster.  Whether a particular law was wise or unwise, time will tell.  My predicting unfortunate trends as a result isn't criticism of the Congress or even the law.  It's just what is going to happen,  If at some point I became a citizen of the DR, then I might criticize its Congress.   B

It is noteworthy that you describe "the continued attempt to suppress gun ownership and the associated criminal activity that goes with it.  Your words indicate that criminal activity is a natural consequence and result of gun ownership.   On that point, I will suggest that you probably have never owned a gun, and don't understand that guns are just hunks of metal.   It is the person that decides if they want to be criminal or not.  If the criminal wants to be a criminal, lack of a gun will not stop them...they'll just use a club, rock, stone, knife, sword or whatever is handy and useful.   Several countries have essentially banned carrying guns for private citizens...and each has seen violent crime stay steady or go up, and have seen categories such as knife violence go up dramatically.   

DR is an interesting place, where many expat cultures come together.  It is inevitable that some of our various beliefs and cultures will clash a bit.  But the DR is its own country, with the right to direct its own future.   

I simply hope that after time and experience [again] proves the path of gun control to be counter-productive in terms of violence done to citizens, the DR will reverse course, as Brazil is doing.


expatrusher


lennoxnev :

to expatrusher:

During the holiday period, with so much additional cash in circulation, additional police supported by the military are to be seen throughout the capital and elsewhere in a passive role. For sure they are stationed at each and every Mall for our security from the delinquents who are notably active at this time of year. That's good!

There was, however, widely reported preventative action taken by police in several popular entertainment locations, and Av. Venezuela comes to mind, where they removed firearams from individuals in some of those locations (most bars have notices stating no forearms or knives allowed) and also closed down a number for such breaches.

Whats is wrong in hotel staff cautioning guests that on the periphery of the Zona Colonial at night there is a need for caution because it is exactly in such locations where at late night streets are dark and quiet leading to some of the smaller nightspots and a lone unaware visitor becomes an ideal target for delinquents? ZC is one of the known locations in DR that attracts solo foreign visitors for the exotic late nightlife so they have become targets.

in DR, was the reasoning for the new law and for sure it is a tall order to make any inroads when they are up against criminal gangs and drug runners. But, your observations are no reason to question the motives behind Congress here passing laws very recently to discourage gun ownership.

Miami Beach?

Many years ago, while in the hotel industry, I attended a conference at the Fountainbleu hotel in Miami Beach.  We were told not to go walk on the beach too far without a group.  We were informed, as fellow hoteliers, and not sure if other guests were alerted.

We were told, also to stay away from friendly ladies of the night, who would romance a male and go to his room.  She would drug him.  When he woke up, he was in the bathtub, filled with ice, and a note by the telephone next to him, to call a doctor and not get out of the tub.  His kidney had been harvested. 

This happened numerous times.  Kidneys were big business.  Macho men traveling alone looking, were easy targets.  I was told, one kidney brought $5000 USD and up and this was 40 years ago.  A lot more than a hooker.  With no side benefits.  Stupid is, as stupid does.

TRUE STORY. 

There are dangers everywhere and as a world traveler, who has spent 3 years in two communistic countries, and also Mexico and others,  while I didn't have one problem in 3 years, I never went looking for something, I didn't lose. 

Be smart.  Live and enjoy another day.  Traveling to and living in another country is and should be enjoyed.  Especially the Dominican Republic.  Let's enjoy it and not try to change it, because there is something you don't like about it.   If you have a small budget, then you will be limited on where you live.  And cheaper housing will have more challenges. 

Lastly, a word to the wise.   Make sure you have bars put on your portals.  Most occupied homes and apartments tend to be safe.  Criminals who want to rob your home, watch it regularly.  Vacant homes and apartments are easier targets.

I hope I haven't bored anyone. Just trying to be helpful.

Respectively submitted.

Planner aka Baby doll.

Obviously there is a tremendous amount of interest in this subject that affects all of us moving here which is evidenced by soo many posts.  I am surprised you want to close it.  From your early comments, it would appear you are prejudiced about this important issue. 

I thought this blog was to be non-prejudiced and special interests such as this, would be allowed, versus someone wanting to sell something that few, if any will ever need. Or someone looking for siding for a home.  This subject, is on the minds of every expat considering moving here, and those living here, who have frequently mentioned personal related experiences.  It needs to be addressed.

Protecting ourselves is an individuals right, especially in a foreign country, that has armed guards at shopping malls and bars on the most modest of homes.  Personally,  I found the post to be one of mutual interest by numerous responders including this writer.

Thank you for allowing me to post my comment.

I would be censored for posting thoughts on this subject.  As humans, we have an ingrained response to threats; flight or fight. I for one will never hand them the Vasoline & bend over. I may lose, even   may die, but will not go willingly. We have the right to defend our selves with whatever comes to hand.  (by the way, can't see well enough to run)           Don't forget the meet-up at Margo's!

Closed
New topic