I want to live in France, very much. want to tell me about it?

Hi!  You will find a lot of interesting stories, advice, and general information in the many blogs listed on this site - check them out!

Hi amw12,

Welcome to Expat-blog!

Here are the Expat.coms in France : https://www.expat.com/en/directory/europe/france/

I wish you good luck
Christine

Hi
I live in France and have been here for 19 years.  I came when I was 31.  I do not live in Paris or any other big city, which can make a huge difference in your French experience.  Outside of the big cities there are no big clubs or expat groups, no adult education, no English anything (bookstores, movies), no jobs! My husband is French, we have 3 children, he works so much his health isn't very good anymore.  I can't even help out financially because I have been unemployed for the whole 19 years I've been here. (We live in a very depressed region.) I have earned two French certificates which haven't helped one bit.  My AMerican degress don't count, the job center is useless,and I have been denied jobs because of my husband's job.  I started an english group for children which I stopped after 2 years for lack of interest, I have started a bookkeeping business which is making no money because I am only an assistant accountant and not a CPA and French businesses prefer to let their CPAs do the bookkeeping at a higher rate because, as one guy told me, "he has always done it like that and doesn't want to upset his accountant".   I can't even work at McDonalds because I am "too qualified".  My husband and I are not weird; we had lots of friends before we settled in France. It may be that we are not heavy drinkers;  the aperatif here is very popular and it seems that "friends" get together to drink.  My experience is not unusual; my american friends in other cities have the same experience;  none of them have any French friends.   It is  very very hard to break into a social circle here unless you are born into it. Keep in mind if you come here to start a business that you must understand the tax and legal laws for your business;  taxes are heavy and employees have more rights than you the boss. keep in mind that any business you start may infringe on a local business which has been established for generations.  Don't think a lawyer or a notaire or a fellow business person will tell you all you need to know.  I have found that you have to know the answer first here before you can ask the question.  This observation of mine is echoed by other foreigners I am friends with. The French are very distrustful of newcomers, and not just from other countries.  Each region has its own distinct traditions and considers other regions as foreigners (remember that I am talking about the country here and not the big cities).  If you start a vineyard or an orchard, you will be in the country where people live as they have lived for generations.  I am not kidding when I say that.  The land and the traditions count more than any business you could bring here.  Any innovations you may do will be looked down upon or even sabotaged.  This behavior also happens to French people.  It seems people here just don't want to improve anything but rather keep it as it is and has been because... well, because that is the way it has always been.  Is it fear?  Is it distrust?  Is it plain old stubbornness?  I don't know.  Maybe people are afraid of rocking the boat.  After so many years here I suspect it may be simply indifference. The most integrated foreigners seem to be retired rich people, but even they tend to hang out with other retired rich people.  My experience may be different because my husband is a doctor and the French consider doctors in a very peculiar light.  If you were a fonctionnaire or just an ordinary salaried person, you'd probably be accepted better.  But not completely. 
        My husband is sick of it, too, and we are working on leaving for another country. We are also very worried for our children's future.  The tax burden and job outlook is very grim for their generation.
     So why do you think France is better than the US to start a vineyard?  Just because there are already vineyards here?Come for a visit first; try to stay in a gite which aren't expensive in an area you are interested in for a few months.  Find out what visa you can get for this sort of thing.  How much money will be reauired by the government?  Talk to the Chamber of Commerce in the village, ask about how to distribute your product, how to get it into the bigger stores (got a personal connection?).  Track down a foreigner already doing what you want to do and ask them how they did it, what pitfalls to look out for.
     
If you really want to come live here and start a business, do it.  Just prepare yourself beforehand so there are no nasty surprises.
Email me if you want to know more.

Wow, what a negative post !

Anything positive in your experience ?

Yes!! My husband and my children!

mw12--I realize this is probably not what you are interested in.  I can give you straight info if you want (paperwork, forms, how to buy and sell a house, how to travel, how to set up a business).  What specific questions do you have?

I know it sounds negative but I have been struggling for years to make any headway at all here and I've come up against dead ends all the time.  It is very unpleasant.  It is very possible that it is my region or my husband's job or some other factor which isn't obvious to me.  Maybe if an expat was married to a fonctionnaire or to someone living in Paris their experience would be very different.  In France, it really matters what your status is and where you live.  Even which university you can go to is dictated by that.  (recently, though, the government is  considering opening the top universities to ANYONE from ANYWHERE).  As an American I find this unbelievable.  France has an invisible caste system, even more rigid than in the UK.  Moving between castes is unheard of AND seems to be impossible. My  children are still young and I have recently discovered that getting into a good university depends upon how well you do in nursery school, thus explaining why French parents are extremely hard on their children when it comes to getting good grades and why they all stress out during exam time.  They know what is at stake.  In my village the best students are the children of teachers (fonctionnaires here in france).  I have a child who is struggling with a learning disability.  He will never be able to go to university here in France.  He will be lucky if he graduates from high school here in France.  He is very intelligent, he loves history and making movies, he is bilingual and learning a third language.  But he is not a good student.  In the US he would be considered as having Aspereger's.  That syndrome doesn't exist here.  In kindergarten, the teacher said she couldn't understand why he wasn't learning because, gee, he was the son of a doctor.  I, stupid expat that I am, asked her what that had to do with anything. She said well of course he can't be stupid because his father isn't.  His 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th grade teachers told him that he was too stupid to amount to anything or to be more than an itinerant laborer.  My husband and I disagree which is why we are leaving France.  Our children deserve a lot better than they are getting here, no matter what caste their parents are in. 

TAke the DSK case in the NY.  Do you know how the French saw it?  They were HORRIFIED, SHOCKED that a man of his stature and wealth and job function could possibly be treated like a common criminal no matter what he had done.  The judicial system in the US has been called barbaric here;no one understands why he hasn't been released since he has not been proven guilty. And besides, the press says, what he does on his own time is his own business.  There wasn't a word about the woman he attacked until several days later when she was described as being "only" a maid. My jaw dropped when I saw how his caste closed ranks around him. Read what a so-called philosopher has to say about the case:

"Quant au traitement infligé à DSK, BHL s'insurge contre le système judiciaire américain qui ne tient pas compte de la personnalité prévenu. « C'est absolument dégueulasse, on sait bien que tout le monde n'est pas pareil ! On sait bien que quelqu'un comme DSK est évidemment traité par l'opinion d'une manière différente. On sait très bien qu'il y aura une meute de photographes pour l'humilier, pour guetter le moindre frémissement de son visage. Donc c'est un argument faux ! Tout le monde n'est pas tout le monde ! Le président du FMI, l'homme qui était au bord d'être candidat à la présidence de la République française menotté, il est évident que ce n'est pas un quidam. Cette justice américaine est d'une formidable hypocrisie, elle est d'une tartufferie que je connais mais qui me saute au visage aujourd'hui » a-t-il expliqué."


Some friends of mine had a 14 yr old son who was shot and killed by a neighbor.  They have been trying to get a lawyer to do something for them.  It has been over a year and the killer is still walking around free.  He will probably not be put in jail.  THere will be no trial.  Why?  My friends are very poor, they barely have enough money to pay their lawyer whom they don't like and who is not doing a good job for them.  They can't even afford to pay the funeral expenses or a headstone.  Last week their lawyer actually told them, after they had expressed outrage again, that nothing would be done because of who they are (i;e, poor and without connections).  They were ready to kill someone themselves after that. 

So... is it me? or is it France? France is a fabulous place to live if you have money.  It is even better if you have the right connections.  My husband and I have neither. 

Check out Corinne Maier's book Ciao La France. SHe explains it all much better than I do.

Julien--you're French; you have travelled quite a bit now and have had a chance to see lots of different ways of living.  What do you think? Is France the land of egalité or just being born into the right family in the right place?   Do you think people like DSK (and their children) should get better treatment and opportunities?  This is a real cultural gap between Americans and French; this idea of caste impacts EVERYTHING in life in France. There is even a caste uniform : in France you can tell who and what someone is by what they are wearing hence the importance on looking good at all times (in certain castes) and never wearing something different:  oing to the store in your workout clothes is a big no-no here. Wearing a suit when you normally wear tshirts and jeans is unheard of--this is why French guests at church, weddings, funerals look so undressed up to Americans.

Hello,
as an expat in France for more than 20 years I can tell you that this just isn't true.I think Lizzie must have been very unlucky!Social position does not affect how you move on in your life in France.University is open to anyone-they don't even look at your grades to get in-and they are practicly free of charge.It is sad Lizzie's experience is so awfull-but it is NOT what most expats feel.
By the way,I live in Montpellier-in the south of France.
Oh,yes:about DSK:it is not he first time I hear this from Americans.We (yes,I consider myself as on of the horrible Frenchs after all these years  ;0)most certanly think he is guilty-and should beed jugded -they can even throw away the key!We just reacted to the differences between french and US legal systems.In France,you can not show a person handcuffed before he has been jugded and convicted.

Just a p.s about Lizzies friend's sad story.I am really sorry for their loss,and their struggle.But it is important to say that there must be some confusion:in France,"poor" people do not pay legal assistance.They have the "aide judiciare".
Amw12:do not let some peoples bad experiences give you cold feet.France is a wonderfull place to live,if you are open-minded and ready to adjust a minimum..

Well, I think the castes theory is completely wrong. Of course if you've got money or contacts things might be different, but I'll take my personal experience as example. I grew up in the country side, in a modest family, but France gave me the chance to get quality studies (I've got two BAC+5 diplomas).

France paid for my studies, my health, and helped me many times. I doesn't mean I'll come back home tomorrow, but frankly, the France model isn't that wrong (complicated, and it has its problems, but I think it's not that bad after all).

All countries have advantages and disadvantages ...

Thank you so much for all this advice. And I have another question too when julien said that France paid for his studies... Is there a way to get finacial aide if you are from another country? I would love to go to le cordon bleu in Paris, although I know there are some in other places even here in the US. I think it would be a good expirience. So anyone know anything about getting into le cordon bleu?

amw12:  check out the cordonbleu website www.cordonbleu.edu
I think it's pretty expensive though.  You will meet lots of people there, mostly foreigners. I think it is less than a year although I am not sure.

Are you older than 15? If so, you cannot go to one of hundreds of cooking schools in france which are open only to students coming from junior high at age 15.   THey are called Maison Familiale Rurale and offer a really good apprenticeship in all areas of the food business.  They are free for French students but trying to get into one when you are not already in the French system (or the right age) is impossible. Adult education as we know it in the US doesn't exist here so as an adult you are limited by whatever is offered by education centers.  Their courses are expensive and you pay for it yourself unless you work for a company which will pay for it or you are the right age coming out of high school.  (I've taken several of these courses myself but I still don't have an official French diploma.) Because you are not in the school system, you don't get a diploma; the other students, though; do. These are technical courses, and never liberal arts. 

You could integrate a French university (but as a foreigner it will not be free for you) AND you have to start from day one, i.e. as a freshman, and take the entire curriculum for the diploma you want.  I know this because when I looked into it (my American B.S. degree not being recognized here) there was no way I would receive any credit at all for any of my university study.  Also, as a student you have to go to school (actually be in the classroom)during the day, all day long, like the French students.  There is no internet university (altho this may be changing). For me with kids, attending school like that was darn near impossible.   As I said, there is no adult education setup here so no earning university credits at night after your day job...

This is the rigidity I was trying to explain earlier.  France seems to think that adults do not need any more education; you are supposed to choose your career path and job early on and stick to it. It's hard to change (although not impossible)because of all the re-training you have to do yourself.  Here's an example:  med students are allowed to fail their first year of med school once; if they fail a second time, they have to leave.  No matter what their next university diploma will be, they get ZERO credit for the two years spent studying at university.  For Americans this is very weird. 

I think you may be able to apply to a French university directly, but it seems you have to get a paper from the French embassy.  Naturally you must have enough money to support yourself and pay tuition for the three or four years of your study.  Check out www.letudiant.fr .

Another alternative for you would be to go to an American university that has an exchange with France.  You only get to go for a year though. 

Have you checked with the French embassy?  Maybe they have ideas...

Hi,
I'm sorry to once again say the opposite of what Lizzie writes...
But,as her,I'm using my own experience.I'm not French,and I went to university here in France.I payed the same fees as the French,with I small supplement for social security.Lizzie is right in one thing:you can't just join an university.Prior,you must pass a laguage exam to determinate if your French-skills are university level.
Diplomas,as in most countries,aren't recognized between countries.
There are several possibilities for adult education,but-as Lizzie points out-eighter within a company,or for the unemployed.
There are internet education possibilities,but these are private.(So you pay,as do the French using them)
Anyhow,amw12,the best thing to do is to really think about what you wish to do,and gather a maximum of information before taking a decision.I doubt you'll get any finacial help for the Cordon Bleu,but depending on the kind of visa you'll have,there's allways the solution of taking small jobs etc.

talatta:  It's possible that people have different experiences depending upon where they live.  Living in Paris would be a totally different experience from living where we do.  We live in an area that is really really depressed job wise and where no one smiles or says bonjour.  I've been here 19 years and I feel I have always done more than the minimum of adjustment. There is simply no response from others.  It is very strange.  Even my husband who is French has a problem with it!  As I said before, it seems that if you don't do the apero thing every evening around here, then no one talks to you.  What do you consider the minimum of adjustment?  I've been on town committees, loisir committees, school committees, I've offered to volunteer at the benevolat associations and libraires (and was turned down each time because they said they had enough volunteers), I've proposed english groups for kids, play groups for kids, reading groups where the kids come but the parents ignore me; I've volunteered to help out with english at the schools for FREE but have been turned down each time because I don't have a teaching diploma; I've joined sports groups: for years I spend two hours every week walking in silence with 30 other people because, no matter how many times I tried to start conversations with them, we can't seem to get beyond the weather. I've asked them about their children, their grandchildren, their hobbies, their favorite tv shows--I get tired trying to come up with new topics.  Do you think they think I am being too nosy?  Have they ever reciprocated and asked me about my hobbies or children?  No.  In gym and yoga class no one talks to anyone else.  When I pick up my kids from school, the mothers stand around like statues, except the ones whose husbands are in the same profession--then they will talk to each other (which is where I got the idea of the caste system--oh, that and someone who told me years ago that their child couldn't play with mine because my husband was a doctor and her husband wasn't) If I try to talk to one, everyone looks at me with horror.  It's enough to make me really paranoid.  THere is obviously some unwritten social rule (caste?) around here which I am breaking by smiling and saying bonjour and trying to talk.  I went on a school trip yesterday because the teacher needed parents to help; did the other parents talk to me (or to each other)? No.  DId I try to talk to them? Yes.  I got blank stares, like I wasn't there.  I don't know what else to do.  Is that a minimum of adjustment? If not, what do you suggest?

I do find it strange that my friends (who are not French)have not been told about the aide judiciaire by their lawyer.  Maybe she assumes they know about it.  This is another French quirk which drives me nuts: you have to know the anwser before you can ask the question. And everyone assumes you already know.  This is fine if you have grown up here, not so when you are a foreigner. 

All the job and schooling advice I have received here has been from the schools themselves, the job center, the counselling centers, the unemployment center as well as from job interviews and temp agencies.  Unless they are totally out of touch with the rest of France, I don't know why they all would have given me the same wrong information. 

I'd appreciate any advice.  Like which French areas are more open? We can't afford to live in or near a city, so maybe there are some villages which offer great jobs, good schools and friendly people?

Dear God I feel depressed reading Lizzie's posts. I will be moving to France on a permanent basis next year and I can't wait. We have owned and completely renovated our home which had been empty for about 40 years. All the locals have come to have a peek and every single one of them has been complimentary and encouraging. I have not yet found anyone who has been anything but friendly and I am speaking about people who have money and others who clearly have very little.The only thing that stops us from integrating further is our limited grasp of the language. If Lizzie speaks french AND has children (excellent way to meet others) then I don't understand how she can possibly feel as isolated and resentful as she does.Maybe she's just not a person people actually WANT to speak to?? If she feels that the whole country is so awful and the people so unfriendly then she i absolutely making the right decision in moving. It will be interesting to see if she has the same problems in a different country!!

Hi Catpaws! I'm glad that your experience in renovating your house has been so positive!  It sounds like you have found a great place to settle in; will you be retired?  Sorry my posts are depressing--I don't mean them to be, just trying to explain my experience here.   

Yes,I speak French and yes I have kids.  I too thought that having kids would be a great way to meet others.  It has not been the case.  I have invited mothers and their kids to my house many many times; I have volunteered at school; I have offered to babysit for other mothers (no return), I have offered a play group; I invited all my kids' friends to their birthdays, but my children are rarely invited themselves.  A reason could be that everyone is so busy with work that they just don't have the time for it.  No problem for me, but I would appreciate a little smile or friendly banter from time to time. 

Believe me, I have thought long and hard about why my experience here has been so painful, talked to other people I know (but are not French) and they have had the same experience in this area.  Two of them are "merchants" ,that is, they own stores; only other merchants talk to them and no one from another "caste" will talk to them!!!!  They too find this bizarre; they do not have French friends either. I have lived in other countries and have never had this kind of problem. In France I have English, Belgium, Dutch, and German friends.  No French.  Also, I was happy here for several years; it just is getting harder and harder to be peppy and friendly when there is no return.  I've even spoken to a French psychologist who, living in the area herself, finds people particularly closed in upon themselves, associate only with family members, and uninterested in the outside world.  She suggested we move down south!!

I would go back to the US more often for a dose of friendliness but with 3 kids, we can't afford it very often. 

A few years ago my husband and I started talking about moving to a different area in France. It has evolved into moving away altogether.  When we visited the country for a job interview, I was in shock at how friendly people were and how they actually responded when we smiled at them!!  We were even invited to someone's house for dinner! And they weren't even foreigners, they were natives. They didn't know us, but they were friendly anyway.  Where we live I get a blank stare no matter who I say bonjour to, be it acquaintance or stranger.

Hi,Lizzie!
Well,I think you must be living in a really dreadfull place! (and I'm not being ironic)
Is this the place your husband comes from?If not,you should have moved ages ago!I live in the south of France,and maybe people are more laidback-although they have the reputation of being very difficult to befriend.In university,I mostly was with my boyfriend (now husband),and one very good French friend who's still one of my best female friends,but as an adult I easily got friends.I have a large group of friends that I met when my daughter started preschool 11 years ago.
When I talked about adjustement,I thougt about a lot of expats who just wait for people befriending them without trying on their own.That doesn't seem to be your case!
I rarely do the "apero",so that shouldn't be the problem...I barely drink at all..We very often invite-and get invited.(One "funfact" about the French,indeed:the golden rule is:You invite me,I invite you-but DO NOT re-invite me before I have had the time to invite you!
Unless you have done something horrible to scare off the whole population,I fear you have just been horribly unlucky with the place you live.Is it a very small,remote village/town??I would really like to know where you live.
I really feel sorry for you,having to stand this situation.By the way,have your kids made friends?
As for the legal assistance thing,there's no doubt about it.But it depends on income,maybe they earn to much?

And Catpaws:don't get frightened!People in other place just are't like that!

Hi Talatta

Yes, I live in a very remote part of France.  From the other posts it certainly seems that the best place to live is the south which is not where we are.  I don't feel I have waited for other people to take the initiative; in fact for the first several years I was here I deliberately avoided non-French people.  It was only after I realized that I was not making headway with French people that I decided to turn towards other foreigners--and felt pretty narrow-minded doing it, but couldn't see any other way to have friends. We settled here for my husband's job; otherwise we would have moved a lot sooner.  My children have friends at school.  Sometimes I can convince their mothers to let them come over and play; my children are rarely rarely if at all extended a return invitation.  Funny though, when I give a party like birthday, halloween, carnaval or summer, most of the kids come....  and never a return invite either.  A few parents even just honk their horn in front of our house and wait for their kid to come to the car.   I have no idea what we have done to scare anyone away.  By the way I do these parties for my kids not to impress anyone.  If they want a birthday party I see no reason to not give one simply because no one else does or because they still haven't received a return invitation yet. It seems for birthdays around here it is just the family that is invited and no friends. By the way my area gets a lot of French newly retired couples who are thrilled to be here and then return back home after few years because it was too hard to integrate here. And they are French!!

My friends and legal assistance: he is an ouvrier (but a foreigner so he will talk to me!) and probably earns about 900 a month.  They have 4 kids, she doesnt work and is trying as desparately as me to find something to earn a few pennies. Maybe because he has a job, they don't have the right to aide?

The foreigners who settle here (mostly Brits) say they are integrated but really aren't:  they are all friends with each other and not french people.  Some of the heavy drinkers, though, do indeed have french buddies at the local bar!!

We should have moved sooner, but we weren't ready for that decision yet. My husband was still eager to develop his career here and I was so darn busy helping him out with paperwork and the phone and having kids and training and looking for a  job  that I didn't really think about it either.

Well, friends are one thing.  Finding a job is another.  I am not the only person desperately looking for a job here; everyone is, even the French.  They get the same run around I do.  The difference is that I know there is a different way; they do not.

Try reading Corinne Meier's book "Ciao la France".  She's a foreigner, too, who has lived in France for more than 20 years. 

Anyway, talatta, enough rambling... I have to go make dinner. Have a great (long) weekend!!

I am moving to France in Septemner and can't wait!! Fortunately I have a few French friends here in Scotland already as I work in Education and our Languages Dept has had loads of Nationals teaching here.  They have been from all over France; nord, midi and sud and for the most part all lovely - the one's who I have become and remained friends with lol.  Only one was unfriendly and definitely didn't want to talk to anyone else, but I have to say that all the other French people found this as strange and rude as the rest of us did. 

I like you have always seen myself as living and working in France and am totally psyched that it is finally happening after so many years of dreaming.  I am under no illusions, however.  I know that it will be hard work for the first month or so, as even though I speak some French, I'm not kidding myself I will understand all of what people say, but for me that's all part of the adventure. 

I'd say go for it.  If you find it's not for you - no harm, no foul - sell up and go home with the knowledge that you tried. 

Good Luck

xx

PaRis iS mAgiC !

Hi Lizzie, Im sitting here reading your replys and just thinking how unhappy, depressed with your life you must be...But I dont mean that in a bad way... im sure you are happy with your husband and kids... just not with your life in France... I realy do think your in a very bad area of France, Im Irish my boyfriend is from Manchester and we have a wonderfull life here... we dont have a lot of money like a lot of people, but were very happy and we love it here... were in our 40's... I have a 14 year old son who lives with us and he loves it... we have realy good friends, English, Irish, and French... our French neighbours are wonderfull and are very good to us... we do be invited somewhere for dinner at least once a week.. or my neighbours might just drop in a pot of homemade jam.. or fruit from the garden... and I make homemade Irish soda bread and drop it over which they all love... and they love coming in for a aperitive as I always make Irish coffee...I would realy like to keep in touch with you...

Regards Catherine.

Seems to me that Lizzie85's big problem is that France is not the USA.

It is a different country with a different culture. Many of Lizzies's objections and complaints are about the French way of doing things, and the French attitude to life. Personally, that is why I am here; and for me the USA values and vulgar culture is why I would never go there.

The difference in the views of the French and the USA are typified by the DSK affair: the US humiliated him ruined his career on the basis of an allegation for which it turns out there is no evidence. The French objections to this were that if someone with connections and resources could be so brutally treated, how much worse must it be for say a black kid from a trailer park. Lizzie however considered him guilty because of who he is.

I ve'been in France for 6 years and I totally agree with Lizzie's answer.I live around Annecy in Rhone Alps region. My husband is also french from Bretagne and there our life was even worse! In Bretagne people used to call me " the foreigner" and NOT my name!!! I also noticed that french from south are more opened as characters. I am depressed and insolated. I have two children and I can relate to Lizzie's experiences about the french parents. When I read Lizzie's post it is like I read my life's story here in France.I run a business that doesn't work where I live.

I have been living in Lille for 9 months and I love it.  The people are friendly and I've found that people are really interested when they realise I'm a native anglophone, bordering on fascinated actually.  Of course I speak French, but people here are really interested in trying to improve their English.  This could be because it's a stop for the Eurostar and there are usually a few tourists around, and also most of the cafés and bistros in the town centre will try and speak a little bit of English to their tourist trade.  I think Nord-Pas-de-Calais is a great region and now I'm proud to be Ch'ti!!    I would recommend anyone to come to France for a while at least.  It's a really great way of life and a great culture with great people.  I just love it here!

I've been here for 5 years.  I've never felt so depressed in my life.  I'm afraid I'm stuck here forever.  And I totally agree with most of Lizzie's posts.