Shop making Silver buddha design

You'll find that once a person has found and established a good relationship with a Pande in Celuk that they'll guard that source closely. 

But, the best way to find a good shop/compound is to look around the back roads north of Jalan Raya Celuk and east and west of Jalan Jaga Raga.  The shops on the two main roads are more for tourists and priced accordingly.

No worries about a small order of 10 to 20 pieces as these family shops are happy to make even single piece orders.  Be sure to have a good drawing or photograph of the design you are looking for and be sure to be specific if and where on your pieces you want them stamped 925.

OK Thanks you Ubudian, it will help me a lot.

Do you know an average range of price I should pay. For instance 10 pieces of a classic buddha sylver, like 2 cm?

I hope no more than 200k for each piece

Silversmiths will usually charge per gram for silver items without stones, often around Rp10,000 per gram at the high end. The more silver used in making the bracelet the heavier the item and the higher the price. However, if your design requires casting which may be the case as you want a Buddha style then the price may be higher as the silversmith needs to figure in the cost of making the mold and the additional work that goes with it.

Impossible to even begin to guess how much your project might cost as that will entirely depend on the complexity of your design and the quality/reputation level of the artisan (Pande), making it.

You can save a bit by bringing your own bullion in with you.  Best to bring silver in the form of one ounce troy roundels as they are like coins and you'll avoid questions at customs. 

Finding the right workshop will take some time.  There's really no way getting around that.

Personally I wouldn't bring your own silver, it's just asking for trouble if your silversmith is less than honest. Let the silversmith provide the silver. If you can find a style similar to what you want to make in the shop then that will help enormously. Then you can just tell them what changes you want to make.

Make sure that they really do use 925 silver. Even if the final product is stamped 925 it means nothing. You could use a silver testing kit to check the finished product. Anyone can buy the tools to make different sized 925 stamps in the local hardware stores in Celuk. It is possible to make the bracelet for under Rp200,000 but it entirely depends on the amount of silver used and the complexity of the workmanship required. For a very fine bracelet that weighs below 12 grams it may be possible.

How could providing your Pande with your own gold or silver be asking for trouble? 

It's the norm for those who design and have jewelry made here in Bali to provide the precious metal.  It completely eliminates the need for discussion on precious metal pricing and keeps the discussion focused where it should be…quality of workmanship and time needed to fill the order.

Moreover you'll find that some of the best artisans aren't stocking precious metals these days…too risky and too expensive, not to mention fluctuations in precious metal prices.

Ubudian wrote:

How could providing your Pande with your own gold or silver be asking for trouble? 

It's the norm for those who design and have jewelry made here in Bali to provide the precious metal.  It completely eliminates the need for discussion on precious metal pricing and keeps the discussion focused where it should be…quality of workmanship and time needed to fill the order.

Moreover you'll find that some of the best artisans aren't stocking precious metals these days…too risky and too expensive, not to mention fluctuations in precious metal prices.

Let's not argue Roy. If you think bringing his own silver is the best way then you must be right. Benten, probably best to follow Ubudian's advice and good luck.

I agree.  Surely Benten can figure out what sounds more logical on his own.  If he thinks that relying on the Pande to buy the precious metal at God knows what premium over current spot price, plus delaying his order even more time while waiting for that metal order to arrive, then so be it.

What I'm suggesting is the way most all of us who have special order jewelry made here in Bali, and for business, operate. 

For the tourist who wants an incidental one off piece made…then go to the big shops on the main roads, pay extra, but they'll handle shipping for you later as well. 

There's really nothing to argue about.   

Thanks to both of you guys.

It will really help me. I think for this time I will try to find a good and not so expensive workshop. Maybe for the next orders if everything right I will bring my own silver.

But how I can check the product, I mean the quantity of silver (925). There are shop where I can buy tools for that?

I would recommend buying a silver testing kit back home or maybe on the internet and bringing it to Celuk with you. There are definitely suppliers here that are using less than 92.5% silver, but I will not name them. They have a higher copper content than normal and you can sometimes see tiny areas of greenish oxidation if you look carefully at their products. This is a clear indication that it is not 925 silver.

I have never seen a silver testing kit in the Celuk stores but they might be selling them, not sure.

Remember when they are quoting you, look for around Rp10,000 or less per gram of silver. If they quote you for your bracelet based on your design and they give you the weight, make sure the finished product is that same weight. Suppliers here may reduce the amount of silver so you may end up with the correct style but lighter in weight than you thought it would be and the supplier pockets the difference. So, remember Rp10,000 per gram as a guideline for plain silver (no gemstones) products.

I'm afraid you are getting a great deal of very bad advice here Benten.

But hey, make it easy on yourself.  Send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll be happy to send you jpegs of the types of items we've had made here in Bali.  Maybe Mr. Collins will also be willing to do at least that for you since he's unwilling to name those shops which cheat their customers with less than sterling grade (.925) silver products.

You can also have a read of the guide I wrote for Lonely Planet some 5 years ago here:

https://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/ … t_18959376

As for bringing in a gold and silver testing kit on your next trip, that may very well prove impossible since they will include nitric acid, and most airlines specifically prohibit such chemicals as part of their passenger's luggage or carry on belongings.

If you need silver or gold tested while here in Bali, it is most recommended to bring those items to a government Pegadaian shop.  They are all over Bali and in my article linked to above I discuss them in more detail.

There are three Pegadaian shops in the Celuk area, and you can check out their specific locations here: 

https://www.google.co.id/?gws_rd=cr,ssl … Celuk+Bali

And for the record, no Pande is going to price out his work at 10,000 IDR a gram.  That's a standard for junk/costume mass produced tourist souvenir garbage…not for fine quality jewelry.

Good luck Benten!

So long as he follows the advice of professionals, he shouldn't need much in the way of good luck.   

In order to find the correct source for .925 fine silver in coin form, it would be helpful to get some sources for the use of his type of purity otherwise known as sterling silver.

Sterling SIlver definition

If this also makes you think of the United Kingdom then you would be right. Many countries including Great Britain, Australia and certain others have since the 19th century until well into the 20th century used silver coins in daily transactions.

The lower grade examples that are mostly not interesting from a numismatist (coin collector) point-of-view are dealt with in bulk form ie quantities of coins. You can obtain bulk coins from time-to-time from jewelry shops as well as coin dealers around this fair archipelago. Most likely you will find Netherlands Indies coins at 72% purity and/or Dutch coins at 64% purity if 1921 dated or later for all silver coins or 94.5% for pre 1921 dated (1/2 Gulden, 1 Gulden, 2 1/2 Gulden) values - the lesser denominations are still 64% pure. You see this is fairly complicated.

As to silver rounds they are to the best of my knowledge all 99.9% pure and carry no stated value, the most widely traded silver bullion coins -in my eyes a better bet- range from 95.8% to 99.99% pure.

Sources can be provided for the above technical details. If you have more questions in regarding sources of PM you can contact me.

I've been a numismatist for most all my life, so this is an area I can speak from with considerable authority. 

Silver rounds are .999 pure, and the reason they are the best bet for bringing silver bullion into Indonesia is that they are priced very slightly over spot pure bullion prices as opposed to modern commemorative coins (also issued at .999 purity) but which carry a higher premium.  Silver rounds appear much like coins, thus they seldom attract attention of customs, (i.e. pocket change).  Silver bars do not have that advantage.

Anyone wanting to see what these silver rounds look like can Google “APMEX silver rounds.”  But they are just one of many providers world wide.   

The idea isn't to bring in .925 (sterling) grade silver rounds (or coins) as the jewelry maker will know how to cut the .999 pure rounds into .925 sterling grade by adding copper.  One could use pure silver (.999) but this is impractical because the finish product will be softer than .925 sterling, thus more prone to wear and acquiring scratches, and nicks. 

The best sources for technical data concerning the actual silver or gold content of virtually any past issued coin, world wide, is either the PCGS or NGC world coin web sites…again, an easy Google.

Would concur with a lot of what you say here Roy, especially where you confirm what I have mentioned earlier in regards to purity of rounds. Also, what constitutes a modern commemorative coin (also issued at .999 purity) in your opinion?

Kitco & Silver Stackers websites are further great sources of information on market conditions and provide background information especially for bullion coins not so much items of numismatic interest. Important difference!

APMEX is just one of the providers of silver rounds and for larger quantities of 500oz or more their prices can certainly be beaten by the larger professional vendors of silver bullion coins. This brings me to my next point.

When buying silver bullion coins of such countries like Canada, USA, Austria, China -to name some of the more popular- one is buying a legal tender coin. Silver rounds are product. This can be important for customs purposes. As a businessman importing items for commercial purposes you have to pay a variety of taxes or levies on goods used for manufacturing goods in Indonesia. If you import legal tender coins you have an avenue to claim that you are not subject to import duties. YMMV and it is important to seek advice from the Indonesian Customs department, in writing preferably, before you start importing precious metals on any important scale - let us say +/- 2kg and up for silver.

Also, as mentioned on this website, in countless different ways, please be informed that you will be engaging in a business, so make sure that you have been granted permission to do so by your local Kantor Imigrasi.

Let's keep the discussion specific to what the original poster Benten was asking about, viz, 10 to 20 Buddha design bracelets.  So, for this discussion, orders of 500 troy ounces of silver is not applicable, as he will only be needing 20 to 30 troy ounces at the most to complete his order of 20 bracelets, depending of course on the weight per bracelet.  The vast majority of silver bracelets weigh less than 50 grams, or less than 2 troy ounces. 

“Also, what constitutes a modern commemorative coin (also issued at .999 purity) in your opinion?”

It's not my opinion as to what is a modern commemorative is, rather it's the classification used by numismatic professionals that matters. 

You can start here as an example:

http://www.pcgs.com/prices/priceguidede … emoratives

In virtually EVERY case, these modern coins, be they legal tender (minted by government mints) or not (minted by private mints) are priced considerably higher than the actual bullion value they inherently have.  For example, even the most common and most prolific 1 ounce silver American Eagle, regularly issued since 1986 in huge quantities, will run 30% over current silver spot price per ounce.  A typical silver round can be had for about 10% over spot…even in low quantities. 

This all begs the question, why on earth pay 18 to 20% more for silver which in the end is going to be melted? 

As for immigration, Benten needs not worry about that, again because this initial order is so small, and a one off order.  Believe me, plenty of people come to Bali each year to place orders on a wide spectrum of local products, and they enter on VOA visas with no issues with immigration.  Those folks at immigration aren't stupid…they don't bother foreigners who are here to purchase and export…even on the full container level.   

By all means lets keep this topic as relevant to the original posting by Benten and not address the errors or inconsistencies addressed in your earlier reply

1. The link that you gave was to a PCGS catalog listing of Clad ie non-silver as well as silver USA commemorative coins. As a numismatist you are surely in a position to a define what constitutes a numismatic coin since this something that you have said, in your words (again) ''so this is an area I can speak from with considerable authority'' plus once you have managed to do that you could also clarify for us your statement that modern commemorative coins are issued with 99.9% purity. This statement is false and a most cursory glance in a Krause catalog - also from the US as is PCGS - can make this evident. In other words, a very small minority of individual commemorative coin types are issued to 99.9% purity. What is most often, but not exclusively issued to at least 95.8% (UK) to Canada (99.9) with USA and Mexico and others trending close to Canada are SILVER BULLION COINS. There, I have written it in large caps for you.

2. Was not aware of the total quantities that Benten would require. Of course Bea Cukai would hardly lie awake at night worrying about 20-30 oz or US$280-420. If this constitutes a business venture that Benten is seriously thinking about it would rank as micro micro micro etc and would hardly be worth our pretty heads worrying about. But let us say that have you have cracked Benten's mind Roy and this is all he will ever would want and require,then this is the present cost of the cheapest rounds from APMEX and this is the cost of silver eagles (US) coins from BGASC -a more highly rated numismatic firm-  for a quantity of 20 coins. Just now 11/23;

APMEX: US$ 15.67 for a generic round   BGASC: US$ 17.83. Both costs are for payment via check or wire. This hardly constitutes the 20% difference that you are talking about but a more manageable 13.8%. For the negligible amount of US$45 on an almost US$360 you have assurance of good product and an avenue of re-selling the item - the American Eagle to willing buyer because of the established nature of the product. Most bullion rounds are difficult to sell because commercial buyers tend to want to assay non-standard silver products, the costs of which are passed on to the customer.

Sure I understand that the silver has to be melted but it is probably better for Benten to attempt to obtain ''junk'' 92.5% pure coins in the first place. Pre-1946 Australian, pre-1920 Canadian , all pre-1920 Great Britain milled coins, are the coins that conform to this purity standard. The Australian pre-1945 tend to be the easiest to find in quantity and can be obtained via Ebay Australia at the lowest costs over spot. Registered postage from Australia is expensive though, especially if you require your package to be traceable. If you mix and match two different metals, as you suggest Roy, the chances for error are heightened and costs also increase. But then again on such as small order, who would care?

Of course, customs tend to cooperate on people wanting to export even containers of Indonesian manufactured items so taking out these small quantities of silver Buddha bracelets would be regarded as meaningless. My earlier email quite obviously concerned itself with the IMPORT -again large caps- of the silver required. If 20-30 ounces as you previously mentioned, than Mr Benten could probably '' trouser'' it into the country or alternatively, he could say to the relevant immigration or customs officials at Ngurah Rai that he is thinking of starting a business and he thus wishes to import raw Silver bullion (maybe a container load) and then engage silver smiths to manufacture jewelry -while on a tourist or SOSBUD visa- and he expects no problems and maybe even a pat on the head because the wise papa Ubudian told him so.

Sorry, but in the quagmire of your smoke and mirrors, you have entirely lost me. 

Perhaps you should PM Benten and offer to be his personal guide through all of the scenario that he wishes to undertake.   

As for me, I have much better use for my time than to get bogged down with respondents that can't follow a discussion and stay relevant to the topic.

Maybe you had too much "special'' Jamu on your recent birthday Roy     BUT

You really have a problem with your ego, mate. You should seek professional help. I mean it in a benevolent way so don't start getting all upset about something you really suspected about yourself...

But in the interests of this community, I will try for the 3rd and last time, you eminent numismatist you, so here goes:

"What is a modern silver commemorative coin, Roy, and which ones -if any- possess a purity of 99.9% ?'' In your own words all right, please no links to websites that do not address the issue.

If and when you are competent to answer both parts of this question correctly then you may have a stab at answering "What is the difference between a modern silver commemorative coin and a silver bullion coin?'' if that doesn't tax your insight too much...

IMHO you don't mean a damn thing you've ever written on this forum “in a benevolent way.”  But, aside from that observation, I refuse to engage in exchanging personal attacks with you.  You aren't worth the effort.

But, I will play this one little game with you and satisfy your itch for a list of some commemorative coins with a silver content of .999.  By no means a comprehensive list, these are some popular issues:

-U.S. Marine Corps 1 oz .999 Silver Commemorative Coin

-Disney Dollar 1 OZ .999 Silver Commemorative Coin

-1 OZ .999 SILVER KRUGERRAND COMMEMORATIVE COIN

-Confirmation Commemorative .999 Silver Coin

-Titanic ship Of Dreams Commemorative Coin .999 Fine Silver American Mint

-2016 Australia Five Blessings 1oz .999 Silver Coin

And I'm really sorry that you are so over-challenged to distinguish head or tails from various web sites, (pun intended), but this site gives just a flavor of the amount of .999 pure silver commemorative coins issued by just the Perth mint:

http://www.perthmint.com.au/catalogue/l … coins.aspx

Silver commemorative coins at .999 purity and 1 ounce troy weight are abundant, produced world wide (China being huge in this market), and always priced at a significant premium over spot bullion.  Why you don't understand that is beyond my ability to comprehend. 

If you have any more personal observations you would like to make about me, then do so by PM, or hop on a plane and come visit.  I am very easy to find.  Try to not ruin a thread by dimbulb remarks, OK?

My father collected silver coins and left me his collection. It's very nice, all British coins.

But Benten only wants to make 10 or 20 silver bracelets, so coins are not really relevant. Benten, just look around a few silver shops in Celuk and find the one who can make your style for a good price and place the order. You probably know what price you want to pay and how much you want to sell for online. But remember Rp10,000 per gram as your guideline. And who knows, you may even find a supplier who already has Buddha style bracelets, that would be really nice. That way you could just buy the stock and sell it.

“And who knows, you may even find a supplier who already has Buddha style bracelets, that would be really nice. That way you could just buy the stock and sell it.”

Nothing wrong with that advice.   

But this additional advice is not applicable in my book, unless you are dealing in junk/souvenir pieces: “But remember Rp10,000 per gram as your guideline.”

Of course I could well be wrong that Benten is looking for high quality, but if so, I can assure him that nobody will work for 10K a gram to produce the kind of items that we've had made, or have sold in the past:

http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/1bbb88/

Sure Roy, if Benten is looking for very high quality, unique pieces or bracelets that he thinks he can sell for hundreds of dollars then I will admittedly go along with what you say. He can find that stuff at Suarti or UC Silver and then make it cheaper at other places.

But if he is looking for the typical export quality jewellery that most suppliers are making then for plain silver bracelets Rp10,000 per gram is the price to pay. I also wouldn't call it junk/souvenir pieces. This is standard price for export silver jewellery. And it is only junk if you don't know your silver suppliers and buy from someone crappy.

Sorry, but in the land where I live, one can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

Jewelry made at 10k per gram is junk.  I have a few friends who specialize in this commodity, and they make no bones about it…it's junk.  It's sold all over the world in street markets, beach fronts, and virtually anywhere where tourists congregate.  And it's already flooded all over the internet:

http://jewelry.novica.com/bali-and-java/   

Obviously you and I totally disagree on what constitutes “typical export quality jewelry” but this 10k a gram crap isn't it.

What I would define as “typical export quality jewelry” made in Bali is more like that made under the John Hardy brand. 

http://www.johnhardy.com/

But, you are right…we don't know the quality level Benten is looking for. 

If he's looking to make his mark, to present something of high quality and great appeal, then he'll avoid 10k a gram makers like the plague.  Otherwise, he can just get in line, like so many others.

Roy, I have been exporting silver jewellery from Bali and Java since the mid 1990's, and I know my business.

I don't know if Benten has lost interest in this thread, but sure, if he wants to make exclusive high priced bracelets then he really should contact you directly for more advice. Whatever he decides to do, he will have to be able to sell his bracelets on the internet and he will soon see where his market lies.

And since apparently we are both silver exporters, let's not argue. We both have our sources and our experience and knowledge. Obviously I know a lot more about this business than you.....

“Roy, I have been exporting silver jewellery from Bali and Java since the mid 1990's, and I know my business… obviously I know a lot more about this business than you.....”

I look at it this way, and I suspect many others will see it my way as well…

I've "put my cards on the table", linking to what I wrote for Lonely Planet as well as a link to some jewelry I've handled and had custom made. 

But from you…it's only been words and claims…blah, blah, blah.   

An old US expression… “put your money where your mouth is!” 

In other words, let's see some of that jewelry that you've been exporting since the mid 1990's.   

Are you telling me that if I upload some photos of silver jewellery that you will quit this nonsense? What a load of rubbish. How can uploading photos of silver prove anything. What a ridiculous suggestion.

Or perhaps you want to upload some photos here of some silver jewellery suitable for selling on the internet. Tell me the weight in grams and I will tell you approximately the price that you should have paid for it. If it isn't custom made then I might even be able to name your supplier.

This is your problem Roy. You come in here just to argue. Anyone who knows more than you about a topic, you  seem to hate it and you attack them. This is your style Roy. Even talking about silver bracelets you suggest something foolish like bringing in silver coins to give to the silversmith to melt. I mean how silly. People like Benten who wants to order bracelets to sell on the net and you tell them to bring their own silver, and then start on and on about silver coins which has zero to do with this thread.

You honestly seem to know very little about silver exporting, yes maybe to make one or two custom pieces. So give over, stop trying to put people down all the time. Try to NOT argue with everyone all the time, especially with people who know a lot more about subjects than yourself. Give your ego a break Roy.

“Are you telling me that if I upload some photos of silver jewellery that you will quit this nonsense? What a load of rubbish. How can uploading photos of silver prove anything. What a ridiculous suggestion.”

Well I guess that says it all, doesn't it?   

And as for the rest of your last post…all the personal attacks…sorry, but I'm not interested.

And just for the record…get your facts straight when trying to put words in my mouth like this, “you suggest something foolish like bringing in silver coins to give to the silversmith to melt.”

I didn't suggest silver “coins” rather I suggested silver bullion rounds at 1 troy ounce each and at .999 purity.

Indostocks suggested coins.   

You're a funny guy…just like your monkey avatar!  For certain…most appropriate!   

OK let's make a deal. It seems that you are calling me a liar when I say I am a silver exporter. Am I right? I believe that you didn't call me a liar when you discovered that I knew Yan from Yan's antiques personally and Mario and Hetsi from Mario Antiques both of which I worked with a very long time ago for more than ten years. So why are you doubting that I am a silver exporter? I mean why are you doing this? Do you honestly believe that you are the only western person that might possibly know anything about silver? And what makes you even think that I know nothing about exporting silver? I mean I ship 20 - 25 kilos of silver on average with each shipment. What could I possibly know???

If yes, you ask me to upload some photos of silver jewellery, some bracelets, a few rings and some pendants for example. After that you will make a public apology here in this thread for being a Doubting Thomas and calling me a liar. How about that? Deal?

If not, you'd better quit this "I know more than you" thing that you have in every thread.

Jeeze, you really are one argumentative bloke.

I could care less if you know Yan, Mario, or Hetsi personally or not…so why on earth would I challenge your prior statements that you know them?  To what end, and for what logical reason?  Funny though how you never followed up with a comment about my joke relating to Yan's nose.  If you really knew the guy it would seem only logical to me that you'd immediately relate to that…as after all, it is the size of Alaska! 

“So why are you doubting that I am a silver exporter?”

That's easy to answer, and it has to do with some of your crazy suggestions on this thread.   For example,

-Suggesting to Benten that he brings a silver/gold testing kit with him on his trip.  That kit would have to include nitric acid…impossible to bring on an airline (as it is a dangerous corrosive). 

-Your suggestion that bringing over your own silver (or gold) would be asking for trouble “if your silversmith is less than honest.”  Well, if your silversmith is “less than honest” can't he or she just as easily cheat someone with the silver or gold they provide?  But even more, that comment from you proved to me that you are totally unaware that most of the best Pandes in Bali don't stock silver or gold…too expensive, too risky to store and too volatile in the spot price market.  And, while I did not mention this before, if you were any sort of silver exporter in Indonesia you would also know that spot prices in Jakarta for precious metals are at a premium (albeit sometimes modest) over other markets. 

-Your insistence that IDR 10,000 a gram is the normal and usual price for making silver items.  That's baloney except for mass produced junk!  Good grief, a 62 gram (2 ounce) bracelet can take less than a few hours to make (hammering), or more than a few days…fine filigree work.  And this is probably the most absurd comment you made!  The price here for fine workmanship (not mass produced junk) is based on the reputation and skill of the Pande and the amount of time to wrought or fashion the piece…PERIOD!

Get the picture now?  Truly, I honestly don't believe you know a damn thing about having custom silver or gold work done in Bali…but I do…and I proved it well enough!

On the other hand, you just have to get over it! 

Now, if you were a poker playing sort of person, you'd understand that I've called your bluff (asking to provide photos) or, your cards, so to speak.  You folded with your last retort.  If you were any sort of jewelry exporter it would be no problem for you to provide a link to the kind of pieces you used to have made, and exported.   

So yeah, I have some real issues and concerns about your credibility…and so far, you haven't done a thing to prove me wrong.  So, either pick up the glove and prove me wrong, or shut up!  It's rather that simple! 

And, back to the Yan thing...send me a PM with your real name.  I'll be seeing him in the next few days and I'll ask him about you.  Assuming he confirms, then that will at least put a bit of credibility in my mind.      And of course you are more than welcome to check up with Yan about me.  What he'll tell you is that we've been very good friends for over 17 years, and a damn good customer as well!  Hell, just last month I sold a great repousse gold panel (Majapahit) that I bought from his father's collection to the National Museum in Jakarta.

Don't play with me because I don't BS, and moreover I can always provide plenty of proof to what I say.  You on the other hand have so far offered nothing beyond blah, blah, blah.  And, same as with Indonstocks...if ever in the Ubud area, I'm really easy to find...right outside the Royal Pita Maha, but to make it easier for you, here are a few photos from our compound (so you know you're in the right place):

http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/222935/

Well believe what you want Roy, it really doesn't matter. It's such a waste of time trying to say anything here when you get the bit between your teeth. Enjoy your time with Yan, he is a nice fella. I wonder if that boss eyed assistant of his is still there...

"A flash in the pan" my friend.  Look it up.  It describes you perfectly.

Roy, I need to go out. You can argue with yourself while I am away.

Nah, no need for more comments from me aside from pointing out that your credibility on this forum just went from zero to sub zero…and you did that all by yourself.   

What a cluttered dump you live in Roy!

Is that really a dog-eared copy of "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie on that varnished plywood table in your ruang tamu?

What a funny guy

Ubudian wrote:

Nah, no need for more comments from me aside from pointing out that your credibility on this forum just went from zero to sub zero…and you did that all by yourself.   

Cheeky little monyet....

We discuss about Indonesian women before Mr. Roy. When I see how you behaving in this thread I really think that your indonesian wife must be a very very tolerant woman, because I cannot see another woman ever to be with someone so obnoxious as you acting all the time. Shame on you Mr. Roy.