Pension reform in France

I do know that my reply is one of the less popular so shoot the pianist if you feel the need for it.

But a fact is a fact. We are confronting two major problems worldwide : 1. aging population and low birthrate 2. we live much longer than ever before.

In our actual economic ways this is a straight run to the ravine ... Yes we fight the changing of our "rights" but face it : if we don't do anything about it we will face the doom of our wealthy ways of living. If tomorrow there's more retired than workers ... all retired workers will pay the bill, no matter what age .. Our economical system is carried on the shoulders of workers, not retirees ... Unfair you say ? Absolutely ... so is illness and accidents ....

Your right vsam. Europe should  be aware of the issues you raise and accept a new pension age. A private pension can always be taken out to run along side a state pension.

I really don't see what the issue is, really extending the pension age from 62 to 64!!

Many countries have the pension age a lot older, so they should be grateful that its only to 64. If they really want they could still take early retirement as long as they were careful with their money.

Whilst I've not been following this issue closely, as has been said, 64 is still relatively low. It would be refreshing if those protesting against it indicated what additional taxes they'd pay to keep the age at 62.

It won't directly affect me, as I do not, and won't have pension entitlement in France. However, the destructive acts of some claiming to be protesting the change / how it was forced through, are concerning. I understand that it's hard to see retirement move further away, but 64 is still an exceptionally good deal, IMO,

Roger

Hi everyone,

Thank you for your replies !

I really don't see what the issue is, really extending the pension age from 62 to 64!!
Many countries have the pension age a lot older, so they should be grateful that its only to 64. If they really want they could still take early retirement as long as they were careful with their money.
-@SimCityAT

Hello!

If you had read the project and known the government's refusal to have the assemblée nationale vote (= anti democratic) you would have understood that it is not about the age per se but the modalities.

People with unstable working histories (for instance, mothers stopping work for several years to raise their kids) and people who started working at a very young age would be discriminated.

Not only the project is unfair but it is also unjustified (cf. experts) and is only dictated by UE.

If 90% of the working people in France and 70% of the general (adult) population (i.e. including retirees) are against project so it really means something.

As to working more years, for info, only ..3 out of 10 workers aged 55+ are unemployed in France. Past 50 years workers are fired because too old (too expensive). So how the h...ll can people work till for instance 64 when they are fired at 50+.

(I am French, retired so not concerned, and among the 70%).

I do know that my reply is one of the less popular so shoot the pianist if you feel the need for it.
But a fact is a fact. We are confronting two major problems worldwide : 1. aging population and low birthrate 2. we live much longer than ever before.
In our actual economic ways this is a straight run to the ravine ... Yes we fight the changing of our "rights" but face it : if we don't do anything about it we will face the doom of our wealthy ways of living. If tomorrow there's more retired than workers ... all retired workers will pay the bill, no matter what age .. Our economical system is carried on the shoulders of workers, not retirees ... Unfair you say ? Absolutely ... so is illness and accidents ....
-@vsam

For sure, people live longer but not necessarily in good health.

According to official statistics in France, over 50% of people have severe health problems. This is not only in France.

Whilst I've not been following this issue closely, as has been said, 64 is still relatively low. It would be refreshing if those protesting against it indicated what additional taxes they'd pay to keep the age at 62.
It won't directly affect me, as I do not, and won't have pension entitlement in France. However, the destructive acts of some claiming to be protesting the change / how it was forced through, are concerning. I understand that it's hard to see retirement move further away, but 64 is still an exceptionally good deal, IMO,

Roger
[email protected]

Yes, you have not followed the issue closely and hence you do not know the project.

If 90% of the working people in France and 70% of the general (adult) population (i.e. including retirees) are against project so it really means something.-@Myrtille319

There is understandable discontent with the way that this reform was enacted. However, it was via a legal mechanism, and only required because of politicians, that supported the change, saying that they would vote against it for political reasons. It cannot justify violence and destruction.

What percentage of the population wants to pay more tax? The reality is that 62 is unaffordable, so pick your poison.

Roger

Yes, you have not followed the issue closely and hence you do not know the project.
-@Myrtille319

Exactly what do you think I have missed?

Roger

Yes, you have not followed the issue closely and hence you do not know the project.
-@Myrtille319
Exactly what do you think I have missed?

Roger
[email protected]

I confirm that you do not know about project.

Have you read it (in French)?

Have you read reports by COR (Conseil d'Orientation des Retraites) proving that retirement system is in excedent?

Have you read reports from other experts and economists?

Do you know about Jospin's government creating a special fund to secure retirements?

Do you know that Assemblée Nationale was not allowed to vote? The project would've been rejected.

How do you explain that almost the whole population rejects project (we want a referendum)? Even MEDEF is against project

As to violence, it is a way for government to try to discredit peaceful demonstrators. All the extreme-left vandals are well-known by government but as a police union said police are not to arrest them.

I suppose that you are new in France and maybe you do not speak/master the language but if you do, mingle with the French and talk with them and you will learn a lot

Regards

@roger.france  Yes,indeed. It's 67 for those in my age cohort in Australia.

@roger.france Yes,indeed. It's 67 for those in my age cohort in Australia.
-@chris48oconnor

Hello,

Have you read French project? It is not a mere number of years but the conditions that are discriminatory among workers. What also angers the French is that the government did not let the Assemblée Nationale vote.

Also, 7 out of 10 French workers aged 55+ are unemployed because too old. So, how the heck are they supposed to work until 64 (+).

Comparing ages among countries does not make any sense since conditions are different

In France, it would be mandatory to work for 164+ trimesters (very few can).

Saying/writing  that the French do not want to work longer is very simplistic

Please read the project and all official reports on the matter and your opinion would be based upon reality and also talk with the French!

This project is only ordered by the UE commission

I think it will become 172 trimestres because 43 yrs will be required to avoid pension deductions.

You are correct, Myrtille, that people have this strange death wish that makes them want to drag people down to the lowest common denominator rather than improve their situation. So they defend what's against their own interests by citing what's worse as the example to follow.

Good thing there was a different attitude several decades ago or we'd be arguing against a 12 hr day when others were still working 16 and about how young children should be before being thrown into the mines. If this sounds far-fetched, check out a bunch of other countries, which shows what is done to people when it can be gotten away with.

On the other hand, this is not ordered by the EU. It is pure Macron, knowing what's best for everybody else -- and especially his friends in the globalized world.

Have you read it (in French)?

There are accurate translations. Translating is a respected, and qualified, profession.

I haven't - I could, but would find it boring. Have you read the rules for other State pension systems, in their native languages? See how easy that is?!

Have you read reports from other experts and economists?

That is known as an appeal to authority fallacy.

The fact is that population demographics are an issue for almost all state pension systems. You can either do something in advance, or wait for the merde and fan to meet ..

Do you know that Assemblée Nationale was not allowed to vote? The project would've been rejected.

I already addressed that. Please read my posts before replying to them.

How do you explain that almost the whole population rejects project (we want a referendum)?

I vote for supercars for all!

If you think that referendums work on issues that the general public doesn't understand the detail of (including funding), I have one word for you, Brexit.

All the extreme-left vandals are well-known by government but as a police union said police are not to arrest them.

France has a long history of tolerating violent "protest".

I suppose that you are new in France and maybe you do not speak/master the language but if you do, mingle with the French and talk with them and you will learn a lot

Classy. Nothing like a bit of xenophobia to avoid discussing facts.

I don't live in France yet, although did live and work there for several years, and am now applying for citizenship. My French was sufficient to study at an Engineering school in France, in French. Mingling with the French? My wife is ..

Roger

Yes, you have not followed the issue closely and hence you do not know the project.
-@Myrtille319

You keep implying that you know so much about this, and that no one else does, but aren't actually posting any details.

The full UK State pension is ~€12K per year. You need 35 years of contributions to get this. For me it would start at 67. Would you prefer a UK State pension?

Roger

Yes, you have not followed the issue closely and hence you do not know the project.
-@Myrtille319
You keep implying that you know so much about this, and that no one else does, but aren't actually posting any details.

The full UK State pension is ~€12K per year. You need 35 years of contributions to get this. For me it would start at 67. Would you prefer a UK State pension?

Roger
[email protected]

Hello!

It is not a matter to compare France and other countries.

The issue is the French project. If 90% of the French population (including MEDEF) are against project, you all should try to understand why.

Fyi, a couple of years ago, Macron said what opponents now say. It is easy to get info on the net.

No matter what, when almost the whole population (including among Macronist followers) is againt something. It would make sense to understand why and to listen to them. Even a minister (Franck Riester) declared that the project would discreminate women "a little bit" (.....)

Anyhow, the crisis is deeper. Macron does not want to admit that he was elected simply because most voters did not want Le Pen. Macron was seen as the "moins pire". Being elected does not give the right to do anything. Otherwise, we could say that Hitler was right to do what he did.

What bugs me in this thread is that NOBODY (except me) gives details of what the project is all about. Nobody has read project so no need to "discuss")

As to France, currently we need to work 42 years to get full pensions (having worked only 15 years in France since I spent most of my life abroad, my retirement from France is close to nothing and therefore have to live out of France) and very few can. As said, 7 out 10 workers aged 55+ are unemployed because "too old" so how the heck could they work until 64+ when nobody wants to hire them?

As to violence. I agree with you. Blackboks and other anarchists have been around for a long time but governmentS are scared to act against them. Darmanin claims their identities are known but the police receive orders not to arrest them (...). How many of them in prison? None.

With all this, Le Pen is very close to power and has become the No. 1 politician in France. Extremists always come to office with the help of middle-of-the-road politicians.

Please read the project and understand why the huge majority of people are against it and we may discuss. French people are not lazy and not stupid and they can understand when they're ripped off.

Have a nice day!

Yes, you have not followed the issue closely and hence you do not know the project.
-@Myrtille319
You keep implying that you know so much about this, and that no one else does, but aren't actually posting any details.

The full UK State pension is ~€12K per year. You need 35 years of contributions to get this. For me it would start at 67. Would you prefer a UK State pension?

Roger
[email protected]

Hello!

It is not a matter to compare France and other countries.

The issue is the French project. If 90% of the French population (including MEDEF) are against project, you all should try to understand why.

Fyi, a couple of years ago, Macron said what opponents now say. It is easy to get info on the net.

No matter what, when almost the whole population (including among Macronist followers) is againt something. It would make sense to understand why and to listen to them. Even a minister (Franck Riester) declared that the project would discreminate women "a little bit" (.....)

Anyhow, the crisis is deeper. Macron does not want to admit that he was elected simply because most voters did not want Le Pen. Macron was seen as the "moins pire". Being elected does not give the right to do anything. Otherwise, we could say that Hitler was right to do what he did.

What bugs me in this thread is that NOBODY (except me) gives details of what the project is all about. Nobody has read project so no need to "discuss")

As to France, currently we need to work 42 years to get full pensions (having worked only 15 years in France since I spent most of my life abroad, my retirement from France is close to nothing and therefore have to live out of France) and very few can. As said, 7 out 10 workers aged 55+ are unemployed because "too old" so how the heck could they work until 64+ when nobody wants to hire them?

As to violence. I agree with you. Blackboks and other anarchists have been around for a long time but governmentS are scared to act against them. Darmanin claims their identities are known but the police receive orders not to arrest them (...). How many of them in prison? None.

With all this, Le Pen is very close to power and has become the No. 1 politician in France. Extremists always come to office with the help of middle-of-the-road politicians.

Please read the project and understand why the huge majority of people are against it and we may discuss. French people are not lazy and not stupid and they can understand when they're ripped off.

Have a nice day!
-@Myrtille319

My French family think they are crazy for causing all the damage.

@Myrtille319  true Myrtille but that's a different issue because there's other social instances for that ... it is just a matter of drawing a logical line somehow to make things work ...

But,Myrtille, what IS the "project" all about? You haven't really supplied any facts or figures to illuminate your point of view. And,yet, you get angry with "foreigners" for misunderstanding you. Please give us some basic data so WE ( those pesky foreigners) can at least TRY to understand where you're coming from. Merci.

The issue is the French project. If 90% of the French population (including MEDEF) are against project, you all should try to understand why.

Please read the project and understand why the huge majority of people are against it and we may discuss.

French people are not lazy and not stupid and they can understand when they're ripped off.

Surely it's pretty clear - the State is proposing to give people less pension money. It's very easy to be against this when the cost of not changing is ignored.

The French are not being "ripped off", they're having to face the demographic reality that many other countries have already.

No matter what, when almost the whole population (including among Macronist followers) is againt something. It would make sense to understand why and to listen to them.

The changes have obviously been handled poorly, although it was always going to be extremely difficult to go backwards on pension benefits.

Being elected does not give the right to do anything. Otherwise, we could say that Hitler was right to do what he did.

Wow. Just wow.

What bugs me in this thread is that NOBODY (except me) gives details of what the project is all about. Nobody has read project so no need to "discuss")

So why are you still posting?

Roger

Hi- the protest I have seen have a full range of ages, young and old.are in the streets, they want their government to listen to them . The US is trying to again to raise our retirement age.  Bravo to the French for standing up, I think like in the US there is never a serious discussion on how to make the.wealthy contribute more ( since they have made their wealth off others labor and have too much to ever spend themselves in one lifetime), just a constant taking from the working/ middle class. Women don't get paid for much of their labor ( caring for children, elder and home) and are at the bottom of every retirement scheme.

Of course, in the US one party is trying to roll back child labor laws so those kids working in meat packing,. construction and factory jobs will build up plenty of retirement credit if --they make it old age...

As to France, currently we need to work 42 years to get full pensions (having worked only 15 years in France since I spent most of my life abroad, my retirement from France is close to nothing and therefore have to live out of France) and very few can.

This is a problem that I have, to some extent. Moving countries has left me with little to no State pension in some. For the UK, I am able to pay voluntary contributions to improve my State pension there, although the maximum UK State pension is very low.

Now that I've worked in the US for over ~10 years, I qualify for US Social Security, which is quite generous. You need 40 quarters of contributions to qualify, but only get the maximum if you've contributed for 35 years. However, if you earn over ~$160K, you quickly build-up a reasonable pension (it's based on average monthly income over 35 years, with diminishing returns). My US retirement age is 67, but I could take reduced (for life) benefits from 62 (which is often a poor financial decision). The only issue that I know of with living off US Social Security abroad is the tax implications (not an issue in France though).

As said, 7 out 10 workers aged 55+ are unemployed because "too old" so how the heck could they work until 64+ when nobody wants to hire them?

There are laws against age discrimination, although I appreciate that it's difficult to prove. The same issue exists where retirement age is 67+. I assume that they would get unemployment benefits.

From my experience, ageism is less of an issue in skilled professions. 7/10 sounds very high - do you have a reference for that statistic?

With all this, Le Pen is very close to power and has become the No. 1 politician in France. Extremists always come to office with the help of middle-of-the-road politicians.

Didn't she say that she wasn't standing in the Presidential election again?

The rise of the far right in Europe (not just France) is a massive concern. Going back to what you said about listening to the majority, how do you feel about this?

There are issues where the general public really ought to trust those that have researched and understood them far more than most have the time, or ability, to do, e.g. Brexit.

Roger

I think like in the US there is never a serious discussion on how to make the.wealthy contribute more ( since they have made their wealth off others labor and have too much to ever spend themselves in one lifetime), just a constant taking from the working/ middle class.
-@greybasketball

Isn't it nice to think that someone else should pay for you?

How, exactly, do you define "the wealthy"? Note that the cost of living, and tax rates, vary wildly across the US.

Over 40% of US households pay no income tax. What percentage of income tax revenue do you think the top 1% pay?

Roger

it would be interesting to delve into the detail but the way it seems people have been living off a very generous state pension for a long time over here without any thought into how it's funded.

I think ‘how an economy works' should be taught at school and be compulsory as I'm astounded, particularly the young, do not understand basic maths.

62 is not a big deal and I think Macron is thinking ahead.

For those who think punitive taxes on the rich will fund any shortfall, history and logic have shown they will simply leave the country and move their assets offshore.