Health Insurance Hungary

fluffy2560 Hungary Expert

Member since 21 July 2009

fluffy2560Hungary Expert11 April 2022 12:03:52

#41

13835

Prior to Brexit (and after, if we have an EU spouse), the Directive which applied is the Directive for EU citizens and their family members.

After Brexit (and after 5 years in a particular EU country) the Directive which applies (to us Brits) is the one I gave above for "third-country nationals" (non-EU citizens).

...- @gwynj

I think you missed the point, we were EU citizens pre-Brexit and we had the same rights as every other EU citizen and so did our EU spouses. We all had the same rights independently. Now we don't have those rights any more.

Before, we did not need RPs, only registration cards. This was sufficient. We were treated the same as locals except national election voting. Now we need RPs and cannot vote in local elections. It's a PITA.

I've read the WA and I don't recall it containing anything special about having working rights outside the host-EU country. Our RPs are HU only RPs. We only have 3CN rights to work in another EU country if accompanying an EU spouse. So we're the same as an other 3CN now. It's a loss of rights.

fluffy2560 Hungary Expert

Member since 21 July 2009

fluffy2560Hungary Expert11 April 2022 12:15:41

#42

13835

The EU Blue Card is a whole other thing for skilled (and highly paid) migrants from non-EU countries. (But you have to have a job offer/employment contract, and there's a specified minimum salary to qualify.) No connection at all to Brexit (although a UK citizen who didn't get to the EU earlier could use this option now, if they qualify). There's no reason for a Brit with a long-term residence permit to apply for a Blue Card.

If you've only got the initial temporary (5 years) permit in Bulgaria, but now want to work in Germany, then you could choose to use the Blue Card route (subject to qualifying as above). But most would be better off continuing in Bulgaria until they get the PR, and then relocate to Germany on the easier EU citizen/long term residents basis (no job offer required, no minimum salary required).

As to getting back to the UK with one's spouse... on that I totally agree, it's a right pain the proverbial.
- @gwynj

I'm not clear on that. I think we need a more direct and up to date answer.

In the transition period, we had certain rights but these were lost in 2022. Only those that applied for RPs retained those rights in 2022. The deadline to "convert" was 31st December 2021. Those that did convert, got an Article 50 RP without any additional documentation - we did not have to prove anything at all - no finances/health etc.

Those that didn't were now streamlined into the ordinary 3CN pathway. There, there's no special consideration for UK or any other citizen.

Some Brexit affected people in this HU forum missed the deadline and had to go through a rigmarole to try and claim residence.

BTW, perhaps unsurprisingly the HU state is unreliable in following its own rules. That's fairly typical here. You need a HU speaker to argue your case otherwise it could mean random rejection.

But my understanding has always been that Article 50 RPs are local to the host EU country under the WA. No rights in the EU elsewhere for work, residence or anything else. The 10 year RP might give additional rights but I stopped reading about it when I received my Article 50 RP. I am most annoyed that any prior registration time no longer counts for naturalisation.

Cynic UK/Netherlands Expert

Member since 15 September 2015

CynicUK/Netherlands Expert11 April 2022 16:04:14

#43

8034

@fluffy2560 and @Cynic

I get that EU Directives are long and boring, but all the info is there! :-)

The Withdrawal Agreement is about the UK's exit from the EU. It doesn't really modify EU directives/laws. There are some "residence rights" that the Agreement conferred to British passport holders who had already moved to an EU country before Brexit. But then you had to go through a process to have your EU country recognize your residence rights (perhaps with some proof you actually lived there), and to formalize such rights (by issuing a temporary residence permit, or, if you'd already been there more than 5 years, a long term residence permit).

Prior to Brexit (and after, if we have an EU spouse), the Directive which applied is the Directive for EU citizens and their family members.

After Brexit (and after 5 years in a particular EU country) the Directive which applies (to us Brits) is the one I gave above for "third-country nationals" (non-EU citizens).

This includes multiple references to "freedom of movement" and "equality of treatment" with EU citizens. So I'm not so sure why you're both so skeptical! :-)

Freedom of movement is not freedom of movement if you can't work. Of course, it would be possible that the EU specified (in this directive) that freedom of movement specifically excluded working. But it doesn't.

Specifically, under Article 11 Equal Treatment it says:

1. Long-term residents shall enjoy equal treatment with nationals as regards:
(a) access to employment and self-employed activity, provided such activities do not entail even occasional involvement in the exercise of public authority, and conditions of employment and working conditions, including conditions regarding dismissal and remuneration;
(b) education and vocational training, including study grants in accordance with national law;
(c) recognition of professional diplomas, certificates and other qualifications, in accordance with the relevant national procedures;
(d) social security, social assistance and social protection as defined by national law;

Which includes both employment and social security (as discussed elsewhere).

More importantly, there is a whole section devoted to what happens if you want to move from Hungary (in @fluffy2560's case), or Bulgaria (in mine), after you get your long-term residence permit. This is CHAPTER III - RESIDENCE IN THE OTHER MEMBER STATES.

You should like this one:

A long-term resident may reside in a second Member State on the following grounds:
(a) exercise of an economic activity in an employed or self-employed capacity;
(b) pursuit of studies or vocational training;
(c) other purposes.

And this includes the "Conditions for residence in a second Member State". Which are substantially the same as for EU citizens (in the other Directive), in that you should provide proof of funds/income, and proof of health insurance.
- @gwynj

The issue with EU directives is they are not by themselves law anywhere unless the implementing country passes them into a national law that can be enforced by national courts. The UK used to publish an SI, directly passing the EU directive into national law as is; with the Preface telling you which UK Government department is responsible for what bit. So, EU directives need to be implemented by the individual nations and according to the UK national press, it is a problem in some countries, mainly in Spain and Germany because of the way they have implemented the same Directive into their national laws. I will disclose that a lot of my former peers in the Military who are married to Germans and living there since their discharge from the Forces are having massive problems to do with this; it's all over Facebook where these guys and their wives are publishing their stories.

gwynj Bulgaria Expert

Member since 30 June 2020

gwynjBulgaria Expert12 April 2022 07:43:21

#44

2537

- Yes, of course, EU Directives are not laws. That's why they're called directives. :-) But the EU expects each EU member state to take the appropriate steps to pass local laws to implement those directives. For the most part, the countries do this, and any variation I've seen is usually fairly minor, and, often, explicitly allowed by the directive (in that many directives allow for local variation of implementation in certain aspects of the directive). A specific goal is harmonization of laws across the EU which promotes greater mobility (of companies, goods, services, people, money). In addition to directives, the EU has "Regulations and Decisions" which I understand to have automatic force without local laws being implemented. I believe that one of the biggest headaches of Brexit was that there are a lot of directives, and hence a lot of laws... and the UK had to go through them all and either rescind or modify them... with a similar process for regulations and decisions to decide which to keep by passing equivalent UK laws.

- Obviously, if the UK leaves the EU then the UK, and its citizens, lose EU rights including freedom of movement. Why is this surprising, or something to carp about? Certainly, it's not the fault of the EU. Separately, we had plenty of notice, so any Brit who wanted EU residence had plenty of time (including a transition year, post-Brexit) to get it. I got 3 residence permits (Bulgaria, Cyprus, Spain) without too much hassle, and my British colleague in Cyprus bagged 6 (Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, France, Italy, Spain).

- There seems to be some significant confusion (and my apologies for contributing to it) about the PR (Permanent Residence) issue. I have repeatedly discussed the EU terminology ("long term" vs. "temporary") and the issuance of EU long-term residence cards (or PR, as I referred to them). This undoubtedly has freedom of movement as discussed in the directives. The confusion arises because (I think) you are referring to your Hungarian national permanent residence cards (or PR as you called them). And, as a national card, it obviously doesn't confer any EU-wide rights (as you said).

National Permanent Residence Permit

http://www.bmbah.hu/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&layout=item&id=75&Itemid=716&lang=en#

EC Permanent Residence Permit

http://oif.gov.hu/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&layout=item&id=73&Itemid=1847&lang=en#

Comparison of the two permits

https://drpl.hu/en/comparison-of-the-ec-and-the-national-permanent-residence-permits/

The former (national) says that you get the national PR after only 3 years (and it has also been issued early for various reasons). The latter (EC) says after 5 years, but otherwise seems to have very similar requirements. The key issue would therefore seem to be what happens if Brits with national PRs apply for the EC PR. I don't know, I'm not there, and I didn't try it. But I'd love to know what happens if you do! :-) If you're saying that Hungary refuses to grant EC PRs to Brits, and hence locks us out of EU freedom of movement... well, that is indeed unfortunate, and rather sneaky. :-) If that's the case, then we would need a Plan B like the EU Blue Card (harder, I think) or Family Reunification as the partner of EU citizen (much easier, if you have such a partner).

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fluffy2560 Hungary Expert

Member since 21 July 2009

fluffy2560Hungary Expert12 April 2022 13:20:23

#45

13835

The former (national) says that you get the national PR after only 3 years (and it has also been issued early for various reasons). The latter (EC) says after 5 years, but otherwise seems to have very similar requirements. The key issue would therefore seem to be what happens if Brits with national PRs apply for the EC PR. I don't know, I'm not there, and I didn't try it. But I'd love to know what happens if you do! :-) If you're saying that Hungary refuses to grant EC PRs to Brits, and hence locks us out of EU freedom of movement... well, that is indeed unfortunate, and rather sneaky. :-) If that's the case, then we would need a Plan B like the EU Blue Card (harder, I think) or Family Reunification as the partner of EU citizen (much easier, if you have such a partner). - @gwynj

We're all streamlined into the 3CN route now. For an application in 2022, there's no difference between a British or Bangladeshi immigrant to Hungary.

Here in HU, there's no way to tell about an EC-wide PR card as no-one has had an Article 50 PR card for the required time. They only became necessary on 1st January 2022. So no-one will have applied for one. Earliest we might know is late 2026 and early 2027*. My understanding is the current PR cards (i.e residence permits) are valid 5 years, thereafter a 10 year card is issued and this includes EU rights etc.

In the meantime, looks like no freedom of movement (work etc) for the HU PR Article 50 card holders for at least 5 years.

The only other way to get freedom of movement notwithstanding spouse based rights is to become Hungarian or some other nationality like Irish (if possible through lineage). Personally given the choice, I much prefer the more portable Irish to Hungarian as we may have a HUexit on the horizon and we'd be back to square one.

* I will have reached retirement age by then and I would hope I would be issued one without any further ado or justifications.