Potential bank problems for Americans

I will be interested to see how this goes for you - the process, the costs! I wish I could give up my US citizenship...I have more reasons to be a German citizen than American. Thanks for the heads up; I'll check with my bank too.

Hi Tom,

Thanks very much for this.  This is a very important piece of information; I've suggested it gets pinned to the top of the Forum.

I should add that having a second passport, for those who manage this, also doesn't help with the bank situation as long as one of them is American.

I don’t want to go too much into the process on this thread as it is really a separate subject but to get a German passport, an American has to give up their US one. One has to fulfill a lot of requirements and document many things but the cost is not such a factor. I paid 25 Euro for the citizenship test (Einbürgerungstest) and 120 Euro for the German for immigrants test (Deutsch-Test für Zuwanderer) to be done at the Volkshochschule. Both of these are actually quite easy for someone like myself who has lived in Germany so long. But it is hard to get an appointment for the exams, all being filled months in advance. Some weeks after putting in my official application to become a citizen, I got a bill for 127 Euros from the immigration office but I think this is only half of what one eventually has to pay.

Documentation needed include passport, birth certificate, marriage certificate (if married) registration of address, tax returns, proof of participation in the German social security system, educational diplomas. As requested I also presented proof of my financial assets including the deed to my apartment. Most of these they said they didn’t need at the beginning so I assume they might only come in to consideration if one’s income is in question. One has to sign that they have not been involved in any serious crimes or anti-social or terrorist movements. They will check with the police about such things. Another thing was to declare that one has never received any form of social assistance - otherwise it seems one is disqualified!

How are American citizens working in Germany supposed to get paid if they cannot have a German bank account anymore. I have never heard such an absurd situation!

I have dual citizenship--US and Turkish. I will be starting a job in March in Germany. Now I wonder if I should get my work permit on my Turkish passport and not use my American passport so that I can open up a bank account as a Turkish citizen. Who would have ever thought my Turkish passport would be preferable to my American one.

Thank you for this very valuable information!

I really think you are overreacting. Maybe for foreign investments it's a huge issue, but I just moved to Germany in November. A couple weeks ago I opened an account with Deutsche Bank without a single issue. We just had to fill out an extra form that the bank sends to the IRS.

snyildiz wrote:

I have dual citizenship--US and Turkish. I will be starting a job in March in Germany. Now I wonder if I should get my work permit on my Turkish passport and not use my American passport so that I can open up a bank account as a Turkish citizen. Who would have ever thought my Turkish passport would be preferable to my American one.

That would be possibly be illegal, as an American citizen you must comply with FATCA and disclose your accounts if you meet the threshold, so the bank will still know about your American citizenship.  There's no hiding....

Like Romaniac mentions, you cannot hide that you are an American citizen - even if you have an additional passport. Everyone is now required to sign statements at all German banks whether or not you are a US person. As far as JMBerry's statement - no I am not overreacting. FACT - some banks are no longer taking US clients. FACT - some are no longer allowing one to have a "Depot" which is an account for investments. That Deutsche Bank still allows Americans to open accounts is good to know but do they allow one to hold investments and how long will they allow American clients? Many of the regulations that have developed over recent years were once considered impossible according to my Commerzbank advisor. The only banks world-wide that can guarantee any kind of privacy are ones with no dealings with the US or US banks.

Every resident in Germany has the right to have a bank account. Banks are actually not allowed to deny you one. But that does not mean they won't try - and if in the end you force them to accept you as a customer, you'll only get a limited "Basiskonto" (forget about loans, overdraft, interest or investment opportunities) and they will take fees for it. This is my experience helping refugees and other "financially challenged" people. It's interesting that the USA authorities force their citizens into this category when abroad!

This is a relief to hear. Deutsche Bank seems to be the best option, at least for now. Thanks!

beppi wrote:

Every resident in Germany has the right to have a bank account. Banks are actually not allowed to deny you one. But that does not mean they won't try - and if in the end you force them to accept you as a customer, you'll only get a limited "Basiskonto" (forget about loans, overdraft, interest or investment opportunities) and they will take fees for it. This is my experience helping refugees and other "financially challenged" people. It's interesting that the USA authorities force their citizens into this category when abroad!

Good to note that banks cannot discriminate based on nationality 

As for the "authorities force their citizens into this category when abroad!", perhaps it wouldn't have come to that if so many people weren't tax evading criminals, hiding assets abroad in offshore accounts.  The USA lost some $450 billion last year in lost taxes, granted not all by expats.  I did see an article recently though that mentioned USA has appx 9 million expats, and only 1.1m have filed FBAR forms with the IRS, so compliance is still lacking....which goes in line with what Tom already said.  As a side note, Romania will also tax global income of it's citizens starting next year.  Looks like this trend could spread....

romaniac wrote:

As a side note, Romania will also tax global income of it's citizens starting next year.  Looks like this trend could spread....

Taxing world income of its residents is what most countries do (at least in Europe).
Taxing non-residents, which the USA attempts, is a different matter, especially if it comes with a reluctance to have bilateral tax treaties to reduce the chance of double taxation.

A problem is that German banks complying with US regulations are violating German law. Even as a resident of Germany, Americans are forced to sign an agreement with banks to have their financial records reported to the US tax authorities. This is a violation of German bank secrecy laws but the banks and governments are going along with it. Theoretically, US authorities have no jurisdiction outside of the US. But most banks have some dealings either directly with the US or US banks. If they don’t cooperate then this is over. And Santander told me they are taking no new American clients since 2016. So they ARE finding ways around those laws that supposedly guarantee one a basic account. And who is going to have the time and money to sue a bank?

And Romaniac’s statement about the US losing taxes echoes the rationalizations of such laws. But few if any of us Expats are cheating on taxes. There is foreign earned income exclusion for the first 102,100 dollars (as of 2017) and locally paid taxes can be written off as a tax credit. So most US expats have to file annually but actually have no tax liability. The Americans hiding their money off shore to evade taxes are not expats. Any sensible laws to stop this would not attack Americans with foreign residency - but they do!

And the FBAR has to do with financial assets rather than income. Even when one properly reports their income, the IRS is demanding detail about people’s every asset. I comply and have always filed my FBAR but I don’t see that it has any legal standing. It’s nobody’s business where I put my money after I have earned it and paid tax on it. And the bottom line is that the increasingly strict regulations are causing problems for millions and doing ZERO to stop the real tax evaders. Both banks in Germany and Switzerland have told me it’s still possible to set up legal entities to avoid the regulations. I was quoted 250,000 Euros by a German bank and 10 million Swiss Francs by a Swiss one. I don’t have those kinds of assets so I never pursued finding out about the details.
Another issue brought up by my Santander advisor is the cost of compliance for many expats. He said he has a number of clients who already gave up their American citizenship. They were small business owners and could not afford the cost of an extra international accountant to keep a double set of books, one for Germany and one for the IRS. Until now, I have managed to file my US tax returns myself but I studied finance and as a performer don’t have as strict book keeping requirements.

It has yet to come to a point that Americans cannot have an account at all but most of us will try to save and invest something for retirement. Some US expats, or ones only temporarily overseas, might maintain relationships with US brokers and banks where they could continue to transfer their money to. But for those of us living permanently outside of the US are not in a good position to do this. Why should my options to invest my already taxed money where I live be limited just so the IRS can make a fraudulent show about stopping tax cheaters?

A list of "safe banks" would be beneficial in this thread. Does anyone know of an independent bank or a bank that has found a loophole in order to not comply with this? Perhaps a smaller franchise that is independent?

The only "loopholes" for not complying with FATCA are either not having any dealings with the USA and USA companies, or rejecting all USA clients. The latter is obviously more attractive for the banks.

Well said, TominStuttgart. It's all a show to pretend that the U.S. government is fighting tax evasion. So, they put honest citizens (and permanent residents!) who live and work abroad on the chopping block making their lives incredibly difficult and precarious so the true tax evaders can continue unhindered.

Here is an online article who went into this dynamic in depth: https://beanstocksworld.wordpress.com/2 … -paradise/

It's truly disgusting how the U.S. treats its citizens abroad, but since expats form a small voter bloc nobody besides the victims cares.

Hello Tom,

I have read your post and have some questions.
First, I am a U.S. citizen with an E.U. blue resident card. I have a bank account in an E.U. member state.
Could you suggest a bank I may try to open an account, so that I have ready for my future employment ?
Can you recommend a site where I may search for work ? I speak only English and will be signing up for A1 class.

I am New York State Licensed Massage Therapist. For the last two years I have worked in a call center in Sofia.
Regards,
Lucas

I can only summarize what I and others have already posted. Santander Bank still allows American clients to hold investments but they say they are no longer accepting new American clients.

Commerzbank no longer allows American clients to hold investments. They allow a normal bank account but have put it in question if this will continue after 2018. I don't know their policy on new American clients.

An American has posted that they recently opened an account at Deutsche Bank but didn't mention if investments are also allowed.

Beyond this I can't say other than to say the trend is rather negative. Banks don't seem to think it is worth the risk to offer full services to Americans anymore. One would hope that some banks will continue to allow at least basic accounts. This is theoretically required by German law but many of the American provisions being adhered to are already in violation of German and/or EU law. But what is one to do; sue a bank just to get an account? Good luck with that.

I have now been in Berlin for a week, and after having done my Anmeldung I successfully opened up a bank account as an American citizen. I was told by another American citizen friend that the only place where she could open up an account was Berlin Sparkasse. I directly went to this bank, made an appointment and the next day opened up an account. So my suggestion to American citizens coming to Berlin (or any other city) is to not waste your time with other banks--try Sparkasse. And it was a rather pleasant experience, with the bank employee even uploading the bank software onto my phone for me so that I can do mobile online banking (another tip: get a German phone number as soon as you can--you will need a number for the bank account).

Very unfortunate prospects .....as a native German living in the Bay Area with US citizenship.  I am planning to return to Germany to retire and it appears that is becoming increasingly difficult.   On top of that I feel a great sense of entitlement and will be loosing the little patience i have when I will not get a bank account.

I have a house in Germany that I collect rent thus I need a German Checking Account for this.

I live/work in the USA, I'm a German citizen and declared NON-Resident status in Germany.

Recently I had Comdirect bank to maintain my bills for my German house, but recently they've closed all non-resident accounts.

With that said, i need a German/Euro Checking Account that is STILL "non- Germany/EU resident friendly" so that I can continue maintaining my German house?....

dr150 wrote:

I have a house in Germany that I collect rent thus I need a German Checking Account for this.

I live/work in the USA, I'm a German citizen and declared NON-Resident status in Germany.

Recently I had Comdirect bank to maintain my bills for my German house, but recently they've closed all non-resident accounts.

With that said, i need a German/Euro Checking Account that is STILL "non- Germany/EU resident friendly" so that I can continue maintaining my German house?....

Have you heard of the TransferWise borderless account? That might be easiest for you.

https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/

SimCityAT wrote:

dr150 wrote:

I have a house in Germany that I collect rent thus I need a German Checking Account for this.

I live/work in the USA, I'm a German citizen and declared NON-Resident status in Germany.

Recently I had Comdirect bank to maintain my bills for my German house, but recently they've closed all non-resident accounts.

With that said, i need a German/Euro Checking Account that is STILL "non- Germany/EU resident friendly" so that I can continue maintaining my German house?....

Have you heard of the TransferWise borderless account? That might be easiest for you.

https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/

Thanks for this SimCityAT!  I'll definitely look into this!  This gives me some breathing space for sure! 

Wow! I’m not sure about the investment part, but I opened an account with Sparkasse last fall when I moved here. They did want to see a resident permit. I didn’t have mine yet at the time, but my registration from the mayor’s office sufficed until I got my permit.

I am an American citizen as of 2010.  I am applying to be the co-executor over my father’s bank account in Germany. The bank insists on getting my social security number. I am reluctant to Divulge this information and I’m wondering if there is another identification number that I can furnish them and they would accept.

Mukti2mukti wrote:

I am an American citizen as of 2010.  I am applying to be the co-executor over my father’s bank account in Germany. The bank insists on getting my social security number. I am reluctant to Divulge this information and I’m wondering if there is another identification number that I can furnish them and they would accept.

Short answer is NO. Sorry but the bank laws all have to do with reporting information to tax authorities. And like when filing US taxes, your Social Security number is required, there is no other number for citizens. I don’t know why you should be hesitant about giving it but you HAVE to. Better get used to having to giving all bank and financial information world-wide to the IRS and to the local financial institutions so they can comply with giving it to the IRS. Yes, it is redundant but they get your information both ways.

There are many issues about the strong arm tactic of the IRS. They do many things that violate basic legal principles in the US but that‘s the way it is. For taxes, one is guilty until proven innocent; the burden of proof is always on you. And the IRS doesn’t just look at income for tax purposes but demands to see financial assets as well. This would seem to violate the principle of non-incrimination and the fact that all assets might have already have been properly taxes is irrelevant. They demand information so they can control and look for any violations without having prior suspicion or evidence. Police need a search warrant to come in your house but the IRS demands you give all information without cause or warrants. Like mentioned early in this thread, this is why many expats are getting rid of their US citizenship.

Hello: After reading this thread, the take away is this. Americans can find it hard to open a bank account. The best suggestion is go to a Sparkasse. It sounds similar to my experience here in Poland at Millennium Bank. FYI most Polish banks don't care if you are American. Millennium just needed my passport, my residence agreement and the city registration if I had it. Poles get (an foreigners too) a PESEL which is a country identification number, not a tax number like the Social Security number. If you got a PESEL, even better. I only have a work visa and no residency permit and I still can open a bank account. I have 3 bank accounts: a savings, a debit account and a Foreign Money (dollars or Euros) bank account. Does Germany have a separate number for tax ID and a German ID number?
Has anyone heard of N26, DKB Deutsche Kredit Bank AG and Netbank? Supposedly N26 has an English page and DKB allows you to sign up in English from abroad? Can anyone give insight?
I would assume with all the American Universities and American companies in Germany not to mention a lot of Americans that live in Berlin and Hamburg,  there has to be a network of banks (even if it's just a few) that allow nonGermans to bank at their institutions. Danke.

Timber22 wrote:

Hello: After reading this thread, the take away is this. Americans can find it hard to open a bank account. The best suggestion is go to a Sparkasse. It sounds similar to my experience here in Poland at Millennium Bank. FYI most Polish banks don't care if you are American. Millennium just needed my passport, my residence agreement and the city registration if I had it. Poles get (an foreigners too) a PESEL which is a country identification number, not a tax number like the Social Security number. If you got a PESEL, even better. I only have a work visa and no residency permit and I still can open a bank account. I have 3 bank accounts: a savings, a debit account and a Foreign Money (dollars or Euros) bank account. Does Germany have a separate number for tax ID and a German ID number?
Has anyone heard of N26, DKB Deutsche Kredit Bank AG and Netbank? Supposedly N26 has an English page and DKB allows you to sign up in English from abroad? Can anyone give insight?
I would assume with all the American Universities and American companies in Germany not to mention a lot of Americans that live in Berlin and Hamburg,  there has to be a network of banks (even if it's just a few) that allow nonGermans to bank at their institutions. Danke.

Well Germany is not Poland.
Yes, Germany has multiple tax numbers. I have for example a Tax Identification number, a tax filing number and a value added tax number.

You write about all of the American Universities in Germany? What do you mean; there are NO US universities in Germany. There are foreign branches of some US Universities in other countries but not in Germany. But of course there are American exchange students and others living in Germany. There are also still some US military bases in Southwestern Germany as well although much less than a few decades ago and they generally have a NATO designation. And yes, American companies do business in Germany but that doesn't change anything. And there is branch of Chase Bank in Frankfurt. Possibly they have more options for American clients but I don’t know what presence they have elsewhere. They had a single branch in Stuttgart some years back but closed it. Despite online banking options, I would not use a bank that has no local branches.

And the thread was to make people aware of the ever growing limitations but it did NOT claim that Americans are not able to bank in Germany - as of yet. Some banks will not take them; others don't allow them to have investments; only y simple savings or Giro account which is used for bank transfers, the equivalence of a checking account. But one should also know that checks are not usually used in Germany; one uses direct transfers or signs a document that a company can book periodic payments from your account; like to pay utilities or other monthly or yearly payments.

You can do anything you put your mind to stop wishing and do it. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel … broad.html It's all laid out there for you so go ahead follow the steps and quit being American.

TheJDW81 wrote:

You can do anything you put your mind to stop wishing and do it. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel … broad.html It's all laid out there for you so go ahead follow the steps and quit being American.

"American" does not mean USA, which is only one of the 39 countries on the two American continents (covering only 23% of its area). Two thirds of Americans are not citizens of the USA!

beppi wrote:

TheJDW81 wrote:

You can do anything you put your mind to stop wishing and do it. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel … broad.html It's all laid out there for you so go ahead follow the steps and quit being American.

"American" does not mean USA, which is only one of the 39 countries on the two American continents (covering only 23% of its area). Two thirds of Americans are not citizens of the USA!

This is quibbling about semantics. Only US Americans are referred to as Americans. Other nationalities mention their country and the US is the United States of AMERICA. No other "American country" has America in its name. And this has nothing to do with nationalism since I totally reject it and the typical America is number one propaganda. And it is not unprecedented to shorten a countries name. People say Mexico but Its name is actually the United States of Mexico. So the USA gets shortened to America like the United States of Mexico is shortened to Mexico. If one wants to refer to Americans in general then it is done as “North Americans” or “South Americans” or “Middle Americans” and not just “Americans” unless speaking of US citizens. To say otherwise is simply denying the actual usage of the words. One could also cry about the USA being referred to as the United States which is also often used. Multiple countries are officially the united states of something; none drops the rest of its title nor seems to have an issue with the US being referred to as the United States. But to JDW81’s quip about being able to do anything one wants is obvious hyperbole. NO, one cannot do simply anything if the rules don’t permit it. Bank rules have nothing to do with attitudes.

Beppi and Tom, can I agree with you both? :-) I suspect it was I he wanted a quibble with, since my inital comment from nearly 2 years ago had to do with wishing I could give up my US citizenship (I'd like to be able to vote where I live). But that also had and has nothing to do with the topic about potential bank problems.

Like others above, when I moved here I went to the local Sparkasse where my German husband already had an account and contacts, and I had no trouble. That was before January 2018, however.

That's from the American point of view. She's a Turkish citizen so there's nothing "illegal" about her opening a bank account on that basis. WTF???

And this is just one aspect of the reasons why those of us born in FRANCE don't like being called "Americans" or treated like Americans or any of that. It's as if they're doing that so they can justify denying you something. And I was absolutely right. It's "If you're a French citizen, no problem. But we want you to be an American so we can deny you a bank account" sort of rubbish. That too, now. It's bad enough that's how the job market seems to work.

pkennedy1990 wrote:

That's from the American point of view. She's a Turkish citizen so there's nothing "illegal" about her opening a bank account on that basis. WTF???

Who are you referring to? Who should be a Turkish citizen. This tread is strictly about banking rules for Americans. Of course it doesn't apply to anyone else.

pkennedy1990 wrote:

And this is just one aspect of the reasons why those of us born in FRANCE don't like being called "Americans" or treated like Americans or any of that. It's as if they're doing that so they can justify denying you something. And I was absolutely right. It's "If you're a French citizen, no problem. But we want you to be an American so we can deny you a bank account" sort of rubbish. That too, now. It's bad enough that's how the job market seems to work.

Again, this specific thread is provided for Americans living in Germany. It has nothing to do with anyone else. So nobody is saying anything about people born in France. When has anyone born in France been called an American? Nor is it a concern of a person who is supposedly Irish living in Russia. What in the world are you even babbling about? Or is this just trolling?