Salaries in Lyon

I hope you realise we know you posted the same thing on the Sweden forum.  If you are a researcher, then just say so and don't waste people's time.

Anyway, that's about EUR 102K.  We should work on EUR in Europe. 

I don't know what you do for work but it's not bad in my mind.  But then again, I don't live in France.   Here in Hungary that'd be a very nice salary indeed. 

Taxes will be higher but you won't have to worry about things like health insurance quite as much. And you'll have a lot more of a relaxed life living en France than the USA and plenty of side benefits like reduced working weeks, nice weather, wine and extremely nice food.

International school will probably be really pricey.  Don't know old your kids are.  Kids are mega adaptable anyway.  No doubt they'd pick up French in a year if they are under 8.  They'll be really confused but they are super sponges so nature will take its course.

Maybe your SO could do home based work.  There are lots of things one can do online these days.  Write a book for expats or do YT or TikTok videos about the experience.  It's an opportunity.

As long as you keep it all grounded and treat it as an learning experience cum adventure, you'll be fine.

Try this Numbeo link for comparisons - I stuck Atlanta GA in vs Lyon, La Belle France.

Not a researcher.  Have multiple offers.  Thank you!

Not a researcher. Have multiple offers. Thank you! - @Ames4

Sweden would be more my choice for "sensible" living in line with my Northern European upbringing and the Swedes language skills are legendary.

But Lyon would certainly be more exotic and with easy access to plenty of places like the Med for water and Alps for skiing.

On balance, I'd probably go for France. My French is rubbish (school level) so it'd be harder to assimilate but I don't think you can beat the location, history and potentially the weather.

@fluffy2560

France is cheaper than Sweden.

@fluffy2560France is cheaper than Sweden. - @SimCityAT

On balance, it looks about the same:

Numbeo - Stockholm vs Atlanta

My guess is that QoL (Quality of Life) is likely to be very high in Stockholm in many areas but taxes would be swingeing.   

There are however many reports of violence there in immigrant communities.  Not the model Sweden I heard of as a kid.   I expect similar stuff in Lyon but they have had immigration from their colonies for many more years I think than Sweden.  They might deal with it better.  I really have no idea.

Once again, Swedish health care is likely to be much cheaper and more accessible than in the current USA environment. And the politics less poisonous.

Yes, weirdly, the costs outside of Stockholm are much lower and similar to Lyon from what I can see.  The tax agreements with the US for the two countries are different but possibly in ways that don’t matter until retirement.  I’ve looked at Numbeo but there are so many expenses we bear now that may not exist in the EU (like summer camps that are $700 per week in our area and necessary if you work).  And maybe some costs in EU we haven’t thought about.

Yes, weirdly, the costs outside of Stockholm are much lower and similar to Lyon from what I can see. The tax agreements with the US for the two countries are different but possibly in ways that don’t matter until retirement. I’ve looked at Numbeo but there are so many expenses we bear now that may not exist in the EU (like summer camps that are $700 per week in our area and necessary if you work). And maybe some costs in EU we haven’t thought about. - @Ames4

There are summer camps but they will be organised with things like scouting groups.  It wouldn't ever cost $700.  That's just nuts.   In one sense,  why bother? Instead of sending kids away, don't forget you'll work far less hours in France and have much longer holidays (the entire country leaves for August).  There's opportunity to spend more quality time with them.   You can always hire an au pair.

It'll be different later when they want to go away with their friends and many schools in Europe organise things like skiing weeks. I expect it will be almost compulsory to send them skiing seeing as Lyon is right next door to the Alps.  It'll cost hardly anything to send them skiing for a week.

I don't know about France but kids don't always go to school at an early age.  They often start when they are 6 which is late by my country (UK) standards.  And you or someone will have to be around to take them to and from school if it's too far to walk.    Many kids will go to school in the immediate vicinity of your house/apartment.  They can walk there themselves once they know the way and can go in group with their friends who will live very close or next door.   

Walking places and public transport is common in European towns/cities.  Our kids (well, actual adults and close to adults) just go on the bus/tram.  They've been doing it years.

BTW, here, in my adopted country, kids have to be of a certain weight (to show ability to carry books/bags) and must be vaccinated to attend school.  It will likely be the same in France.  Anti-vaxxers will have to do home school.

Instead of me chipping in and talking about France, a country I don't know in detail, you need someone who lives there to say something about it.  I've been to France many times but I've never lived there.  It's a very popular place with many people from the USA.  We (well me anyway) don't see it really as foreign.  It's just different to here but not unfamiliar.  Everywhere is Euro-normal these days.   Brexit hasn't helped much sustain my view.

If you want to see a really bad Numbeo comparison, compare Dublin to Budapest.  Madness.

Hi Ames,

With your salary, I think you can live very comforably by the standards of most french people.

I would recommend public schooling till 9 -10 (CE2/CM1), unless you intend to rent/buy a property next to a private school. It's so much less stressful when the school is within walking distance. Your kids will enjoy being friends with the neighbours, and most teachers are dedicated to their jobs. Some schools even have programmes to integrate foreign students (lunchtime classes, holiday classes, etc) -- which might or might not be ideal, as it indicates an elevated percentage of foreigners in your neighbourhood.

Personally, I do not think that an international school would be more conducive to learning French. My second child spent 10 months in Asia when he was 3, and could barely speak French when he came back to France. He's now 10 and has always attended a public school in a relatively underprivileged neighbourhood. I still beat him in writing, but he has been correcting my spoken French for a couple of years now.

However, most schools implement the "mandatory" policy of mixing kids with differing learning aptitudes, and you might find that their progress slows down in comparison to international standards starting from the age of 9-10. Homework is theoretically forbidden till collège (12 years old), though from what I see, most teachers do set a little homework unless they receive complaints from parents.

From the age of 12 (collège), there are PUBLIC international schools, that would permit your children to keep up their English proficiency. Be warned though that competition is stiff, especially for the American/British sections. The French use it as a cheap method to circumvent the "mandatory" policy of mixing kids with differing learning aptitudes. Or, as they like to put it so prettily, for better "fréquentation" (who your kids hang out with).

The other method, slightly more costly, is to send their children to private schools. You mentioned a "safe, leafy neighbourhood". Most cities in France, Lyon included, adhere to the policy of building social housing in/around rich neighbourhoods. Which means that at the edge of your "safe, leafy neighbourhood," you are probably going to have some underprivileged neighbours who will go to the same school as your children. If that bothers you, you might prefer private schooling.

The cost of private schooling in France is much lower than other countries due to subsidies. (Most private schools are regulated, and therefore receive subsidies.) In the Parisien region, it costs around 3000 euros per year for school fees and probably around 3000 euros for cantine. My estimate is that even if your child participates in all the extracurricular activities and school trips, 10 000 euros would be more than enough.

Children's activities are ridiculously cheap when compared to other countries. Even under maximum tariff, we pay 400 euros per kid per year for music at the conservatoire (instrument + solfège + choral/collective instrument) and around 150-300 euros per kid per year for sports (2-3 sessions per week).

Lastly, one of the most stressful times for parents is when teachers go on strike (around 1-4 times per year depending on the teacher), and you have no choice but to keep your kids at home. Another source of stress are traffic jams, as the services available for kids are available from 7am to 7pm. Lyon is a big city, so when the public transport goes on strike, you might find yourself stuck in a traffic jam and unable to get home before 7pm. It will not be fun. Of course, it will not be a great deal while your partner has yet to find a job, or if your job is flexible. If not, the Stay-at-home-mum neighbour is going to be your best friend in times of crisis.

Lyon is a lovely city, and France is a wonderful and quirky country in the middle of some huge changes. Enjoy!