Overseas Vietnamese (Người Việt Hải Ngoại) returning to Vietnam

Lawyers don't necessarily know all other P.I.s etc in every province etcetera.

Moreover the point of me asking the question in the first place is to avoid having to pay a P.I for what's really fairly simple stuff.

I still don't see how N.I is relevant.

MollyVienMackay wrote:

Lawyers don't necessarily know all other P.I.s etc in every province etcetera.

Moreover the point of me asking the question in the first place is to avoid having to pay a P.I for what's really fairly simple stuff.

I still don't see how N.I is relevant.

Hold on, Molly, I'd like to recap here:

• Your case raises more questions than it seems clear to us all given the fact that we only get a part of the picture as stated by THIGV before. You can't come here, throw pieces of the story and expect everyone to be aware of all parts and then getting snippy when someone asks questions to get a better picture.
• You are using the expat forum AND this thread to get information and win a custody case in the long run.
• I kindly asked you before to stick to your own thread because your case is very specific. And if no one is going to answer on your thread there is a reason (either we don't know or don't want to get involved in your legal fight) and you should accept it.
• If you decide to stay here and post your stuff anyways, then please expect questions (provided they are not too private and affect legal matters) and try to stay considerate.

I hope you can reflect a bit. Thank you.

MollyVienMackay wrote:

Lawyers don't necessarily know all other P.I.s etc in every province etcetera.

Moreover the point of me asking the question in the first place is to avoid having to pay a P.I for what's really fairly simple stuff.

I still don't see how N.I is relevant.

Start your own thread,stop hijacking other threads.

Maybe I'm not very good at explaining things on-line.

I was asking about a forum or group for Overseas Vietnamese in a thread about overseas Vietnamese' people's forums/ groups on a website for people overseas in Vietnam.

I'm happy to answer any questions about Belfast, the ROI etc anytime.

MollyVienMackay wrote:

Kind of unbelievable that we should get this flack here. Isn;t THI guy a moderator himself?

Yes I'm a dual citizen , and if you're really interested I am pro Irish re-unification.

I was asking about forums where I might find a Vietkieu guy to help me in a custody case.

1)  No I am far from a moderator.

2)  That's a perfectly adequate explanation for something that seemed odd otherwise.

3)  The fact that you are Irish, or any non-Vietnamese, probably is relevant as it has been repeatedly stated by individuals posting on this forum, that foreigners seldom come out the winner in custody cases in Vietnamese courts.

Here you go:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … 30#4993175

Check post #6 and send him a private message before he is banned for advertising his services.

MollyVienMackay wrote:

I was asking about a forum or group for Overseas Vietnamese in a thread about overseas Vietnamese' people's forums/ groups on a website for people overseas in Vietnam.

I'm happy to answer any questions about Belfast, the ROI etc anytime.

Forget about Belfast and the ROI; that nonsequential question was for THIGV's curiosity (which, when you're here long enough and active enough to know, happens regularly).  You've answered and he was satisfied, let's move on.

About your request: you were "asking about a forum or group for Overseas Vietnamese in a thread about overseas Vietnamese' people's forums/ groups on a website for people overseas in Vietnam."  I'm going to be technical here with my answer: 

- Yes, this is a website for expats, or in your rather narrow definition, "a website for people overseas in Vietnam."

- No, this is not a forum for or about Overseas Vietnamese.  This is a forum for expats in Vietnam.  I'm an American expat in Vietnam, same as OB.  You're an Irish expat in Vietnam. THIGV used to be an American expat in Vietnam. Colin is an Australian expat in Vietnam.  Goodolboy is a Scottish expat in Vietnam.  Tyel, the OP of this thread, plans to be a German expat in Vietnam. 

- Yes, the title of this thread may be ambiguous, but one thing for certain: it's not about Overseas Vietnamese. 

In spite of all that, let's talk about your specific inquiry:  you want to find an Overseas Vietnamese group to discover the identity of the person on whose land your child  resides in order to process with your custody case.

Again, I'm going to break down that question with several answers:

- There are many Overseas Vietnamese groups but logic dictates that all of them are located in the country of the group.  Almost all regular members of this forum have no personal knowledge of such groups as the groups have nothing to do with their lives as expats in Vietnam.

- Most, if not all of the above mentioned groups do not have a roster of registered members.  I would even say that aside from the founders and officers of the group, few members are required to register officially.  (I know of this fact because for many decades now, my sister has been either the founder or board member of several Overseas Vietnamese groups in North America.) 

- Most of the groups are formed with civic or social goals to serve the members in that country; none of them collects information on the members' properties in Vietnam. Therefore, none of the group will be able to help you track down the owner of any property.  What an Overseas Vietnamese owns in Vietnam is none of the other Overseas Vietnamese business.  The only way people in other countries know about a property in Vietnam is if the owner is an entertainer or a famous person.

I'm not going to reply to the custody part of your inquiry because I agree with other posters: your story is too vague or confusing for anyone to understand.

THIGV wrote:

Here you go:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … 30#4993175

Check post #6 and send him a private message before he is banned for advertising his services.

That link has nothing to do with MollyVienMackay's question.  Also, post #6 doesn't exist in that thread.

Ciambella wrote:

THIGV wrote:

Here you go:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … 30#4993175

Check post #6 and send him a private message before he is banned for advertising his services.

That link has nothing to do with MollyVienMackay's question.  Also, post #6 doesn't exist in that thread.

Posts #6 and #7 were by a spammer promoting his private detective service.

Looks as if admin delete them without notation

Ciambella wrote:

THIGV wrote:

Here you go:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … 30#4993175

Check post #6 and send him a private message before he is banned for advertising his services.

That link has nothing to do with MollyVienMackay's question.  Also, post #6 doesn't exist in that thread.

As i foretold, his post apparently was taken down by moderators.  He was promoting the services of a private investigative agency.  His post strangely had nothing to do with the thread in which it was posted, but it might have been relevant here.

Hello there, a lady from Germany that are running as VNM blood as me.
So far as i know there are mamy comunities, but inside VN appears none. I am local by the way.
You are always welcome to come back your part  of VNM.
If you wish to open business in VN as a foreigner, you can try to contact a law company, who knows very well all the rules. So they can help and assist you to open, to advise and to deal with tons of prolix-paperworks. Then, you can suggest one of them to work for you as HR team for the first 3 years (i.e). Then after that when you observe enough how VN rules moving. You can decide then.
Why I say these, as experienced in a Holland furniture company first moved to VN from China, I was one of the earliest VNM who worked for that office and then I learnt that way. I am not related to laws, but just a cooperator in SCM dept.

But, it is quite hard. I hope you are strong nervous. Perhaps it is hard at first but later better.
Hope this helps.
Thx
H.

colinoscapee wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

I have a lot of Vietnamese friends in Hanoi and I've spent a significant amount of time there since I've been in Vietnam this second time.

In fact, I flew in there first on purpose because I wanted to learn about their perspective on historical events.

In a way, I guess you could say I'm a bit of an apologist for their point of view, keeping in mind that one can be an apologist without necessarily being an adherent.

Since most of the opinions that are strongly  expressed here are either from foreigners or from those sympathetic with the anti-communists of the south, I'll probably continue to share their viewpoint from time to time, especially concerning The American War in Vietnam.

You do realise that only about 10% of people in Vietnam are card carrying communists. Just proves that it's not overly popular. Polls done in 2015 show that Capitalism is liked by around 90% of people interviewed, much higher than the USA.

Except for the 10% you quoted, the rest although showing pro-Western, actually they are silently support CMNist without asking.
Most is nearly now lazy, do not care much about the facts, only games, parties, clothings, cellphones, food, drugs some cases...
One day if incidentally ther hear and you are trying to say the truth of that war, they at once think you are brainwashed, and by all means arguments without demur then finally when cannot accept they will say "but we won"

None of it is good.

Pvmhien wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

I have a lot of Vietnamese friends in Hanoi and I've spent a significant amount of time there since I've been in Vietnam this second time.

In fact, I flew in there first on purpose because I wanted to learn about their perspective on historical events.

In a way, I guess you could say I'm a bit of an apologist for their point of view, keeping in mind that one can be an apologist without necessarily being an adherent.

Since most of the opinions that are strongly  expressed here are either from foreigners or from those sympathetic with the anti-communists of the south, I'll probably continue to share their viewpoint from time to time, especially concerning The American War in Vietnam.

You do realise that only about 10% of people in Vietnam are card carrying communists. Just proves that it's not overly popular. Polls done in 2015 show that Capitalism is liked by around 90% of people interviewed, much higher than the USA.

Except for the 10% you quoted, the rest although showing pro-Western, actually they are silently support CMNist without asking.
Most is nearly now lazy, do not care much about the facts, only games, parties, clothings, cellphones, food, drugs some cases...
One day if incidentally ther hear and you are trying to say the truth of that war, they at once think you are brainwashed, and by all means arguments without demur then finally when cannot accept they will say "but we won"

None of it is good.

I doubt anyone will take your word on it.
Do you have a link showing what you have quoted?

colinoscapee wrote:

I doubt anyone will take your word on it.
Do you have a link showing what you have quoted?

You are VNM, aren't you?
If they (anyone) doubt or cannot take it, they can ask it themselves. Don't worry. None of your business my dear friend.

Yet if you was inclusive in that "anyone" (seems strange to me, though) okay, i don't blame on it as you are not really any parts of the country and inexperienced. It, hence, is hard to tell.

Let us call this is neither my words nor my ideas, this is the natural facts. Accept or not it doesn't matter really to you nor "anyone". But those things run and move naturally without caring who we are.

It was easier to know it than to explain why I say it. If you were asked to prove that two and two made four, you might find some difficulty, and yet you are quite sure of the fact.

Things above are not difficult to find or to see nowadays if you are in VN, I supposed my dear.

Pvmhien wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

I doubt anyone will take your word on it.
Do you have a link showing what you have quoted?

You are VNM, aren't you?
If they (anyone) doubt or cannot take it, they can ask it themselves. Don't worry. None of your business my dear friend.

Yet if you was inclusive in that "anyone" (seems strange to me, though) okay, i don't blame on it as you are not really any parts of the country and inexperienced. It, hence, is hard to tell and none of my tasks.

Let us call this is neither my words nor my ideas, this is the natural facts. Accept or not it doesn't matter really to you nor "anyone". But it runs naturally without caring who we are. And the thing is how can I tell you if you are not involved or not on board, can I?
But that is queer! You cannot feel it everyday, can't you?

If you disagree, it doesn't matter really either.
Things above are not difficult to find or to see nowadays if you are in VN.
If not, I am not the one who tells you, unfortunately.

You telling us how things work here holds very little credibility without any facts,links or anything to back you up. You may believe what you wrote. I posted a link to back up my argument. Where is yours?

You say it is "natural facts." Maybe in your eyes, but most people dont subscribe to your point of view.

colinoscapee wrote:

You telling us how things work here holds very little credibility without any facts,links or anything to back you up. You may believe what you wrote. I posted a link to back up my argument. Where is yours?

You say it is "natural facts." Maybe in your eyes, but most people dont subscribe to your point of view.

You were right. But I think I needn't show. Why? Because you did and I have to do exactly what you did, for what? If you think i have to, I marvel what told you that?

Fact is fact. Truth is truth.

That is extremely funny that" most of people."
I don't see anyone, but you, gentleman! - this is not your point of view to quickly say "most people", is it? Why are you certain?

That is super queer, at least to me.

Apropos, the discussion between you and me, is somewhat far from what this topic's enquiries.

Pvmhien wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

You telling us how things work here holds very little credibility without any facts,links or anything to back you up. You may believe what you wrote. I posted a link to back up my argument. Where is yours?

You say it is "natural facts." Maybe in your eyes, but most people dont subscribe to your point of view.

You were right. But I think I needn't show. Why? Because you did and I have to do exactly what you did, for what? If you think i have to, I marvel what told you that?

Fact is fact. Truth is truth.

That is extremely funny that" most of people."
I don't see anyone, but you, gentleman! - this is not your point of view to quickly say "most people", is it? Why are you certain?

That is super queer, at least to me.

Apropos, the discussion between you and me, is somewhat far from what this topic's enquiries.

So, if you went to a doctor and was told that you have cancer without doing any tests, would you believe the doctor. Of course not! you would want to see something to back up the doctors diagnosis. My exact point here is all that you offer is your opinion.

I have a feeling you are from the north.

I rest my case.

Pvmhien wrote:

Except for the 10% you quoted, the rest although showing pro-Western, actually they are silently support CMNist without asking.

I disagree with your statement that aside from (I'm sure it's the word you meant to write and not "except for") the 10% of the population who are card carrying party members, the rest of the country are silent supporters of the communist party.

The reasons for my disagreement:

- As this is a communist country, there's no reason for anyone to be silent supporters of the communist party.  Silently support one's government why pretending to prefer someone else?  That's illogical beyond words.

- Saigon is a land of capitalists, no if, ands, or buts about it.  It has been that way since the Nguyen Lords took the land from the Khmer and allowed their subjects to homestead at will (read my post #48).  If you doubt my statement, study old history books (not the ones being used in classrooms in the last 45 years).  The proof was shown as far back as in Lê Quý Đôn's works.

- Saigoneers owe their loyalty only to their daily bread and no other ideology.  They do not pretend to be anyone's supporters; they simply go with whomever offers the opportunities for a better life.  From the end of the 19th century until 1975, they were pro-French, pro-Republic, and pro-American.  The only subjugator they were adamantly against was the Japanese due to the cruel treatment the latter imposed upon the former.

- In my first visit in 2006 and again in the last 3+ years since I made VN my home, I've spoken with hundreds of Saigoneers, from taxi drivers to medium and large business owners.  We talked about their lives, their struggle, their hope, and their "if I could change one thing about my government" pipe dream.  During those uncountable conversations, I've yet to meet anyone who cares one whit about The War, but they do tell me in details how difficult their lives have been since The War ended. 

The only positive thing shared by most of those people:  there are more public parks now than pre -'75.

- Is the pro-Western attitude found in the majority of Vietnamese in the South just for show while they support something else in silent, as you stated?  Let's put it this way:  parents are borrowing money to send their children to English language schools; women are marrying men triple their ages to acquire a foreign passport;  Nike and Adidas are the favourite footwear brands;  Gucci, even the fake version, is the vied-for gift; USD is the best way to build a nest egg, second only to gold; and in spite of the good Vietnamese food, McD, pizza, and doughnuts are loved by all age groups.

Need I say more?

Ciambella wrote:

Pvmhien wrote:

Except for the 10% you quoted, the rest although showing pro-Western, actually they are silently support CMNist without asking.

I disagree with your statement that aside from (I'm sure that's the word you meant to write and not "except for") the 10% of the population who are card carrying party members, the rest of the country are silent supporters of the communist party.

The reasons for my disagreement:

- As this is a communist country, there's no reason for anyone to be silent supporters of the communist party.  Silently support one's government why pretending to prefer someone else?  That's illogical beyond words.

- Saigon is a land of capitalists, no if, ands, or buts about it.  It has been that way since the Nguyen Lords took the land from the Khmer and allowed their subjects to homestead at will (read my post #48).  If you doubt my statement, study old history books (not the ones being used in classrooms in the last 45 years).  The proof was shown as far back as in Lê Quý Đôn's works.

- Saigoneers owe their loyalty only to their daily bread and no other ideology.  They do not pretend to be anyone's supporters; they simply go with whomever offers the opportunities for a better life.  From the end of the 19th century until 1975, they were pro-French, pro-Republic, and pro-American.  The only subjugator they were adamantly against was the Japanese due to the cruel treatment the latter imposed upon the former.

- In my first visit in 2006 and again in the last 3+ years since I made VN my home, I've spoken with hundreds of Saigoneers, from taxi drivers to medium and large business owners.  We talked about their lives, their struggle, their hope, and their "if I could change one thing about my government" pipe dream.  During those uncountable conversations, I've yet to meet anyone who cares one whit about The War, but they do tell me in details how difficult their lives have been since The War ended. 

The only positive thing shared by most of those people:  the new government has created more public parks now than the old one.

Is the pro-Western attitude found in the majority of Vietnamese in the South just for show while they support something else in silent, as you statement indicated?  Let's put it this way:  parents are borrowing money to send their children to English language schools; women are marrying men triple their ages to acquire a foreign passport;  Nike and Adidas are the favourite footwear brands;  Gucci, even the fake version, is the vied-for gift; USD is the best way to build a nest egg, second only to gold; and in spite of the good Vietnamese food, McD, pizza, and doughnuts are loved by all age groups.

Need I say more?

Just to add, if these people are silent supporters of Communism, why are they living and wanting Capitalist lives, it makes not one ounce of sense.

I feel Pvmhien has been reading the very propaganda that is put in place to gain this very misinformed line of thinking.

Anyway, enough about politics.

Ciambella wrote:

Pvmhien wrote:

Except for the 10% you quoted, the rest although showing pro-Western, actually they are silently support CMNist without asking.

I disagree with your statement that aside from (I'm sure that's the word you meant to write and not "except for") the 10% of the population who are card carrying party members, the rest of the country are silent supporters of the communist party.

The reasons for my disagreement:

- As this is a communist country, there's no reason for anyone to be silent supporters of the communist party.  Silently support one's government why pretending to prefer someone else?  That's illogical beyond words.

- Saigon is a land of capitalists, no if, ands, or buts about it.  It has been that way since the Nguyen Lords took the land from the Khmer and allowed their subjects to homestead at will (read my post #48).  If you doubt my statement, study old history books (not the ones being used in classrooms in the last 45 years).  The proof was shown as far back as in Lê Quý Đôn's works.

- Saigoneers owe their loyalty only to their daily bread and no other ideology.  They do not pretend to be anyone's supporters; they simply go with whomever offers the opportunities for a better life.  From the end of the 19th century until 1975, they were pro-French, pro-Republic, and pro-American.  The only subjugator they were adamantly against was the Japanese due to the cruel treatment the latter imposed upon the former.

- In my first visit in 2006 and again in the last 3+ years since I made VN my home, I've spoken with hundreds of Saigoneers, from taxi drivers to medium and large business owners.  We talked about their lives, their struggle, their hope, and their "if I could change one thing about my government" pipe dream.  During those uncountable conversations, I've yet to meet anyone who cares one whit about The War, but they do tell me in details how difficult their lives have been since The War ended. 

The only positive thing shared by most of those people:  there are more public parks now than pre -'75.

- Is the pro-Western attitude found in the majority of Vietnamese in the South just for show while they support something else in silent, as you statement indicated?  Let's put it this way:  parents are borrowing money to send their children to English language schools; women are marrying men triple their ages to acquire a foreign passport;  Nike and Adidas are the favourite footwear brands;  Gucci, even the fake version, is the vied-for gift; USD is the best way to build a nest egg, second only to gold; and in spite of the good Vietnamese food, McD, pizza, and doughnuts are loved by all age groups.

Need I say more?

During those uncountable conversations, I've yet to met anyone who cares one whit about The War, but they do tell me in details how difficult their lives have been since The War ended.

I dont doubt for one minute your summery dear girl but what I dont get & never have is the statement in bold. If their lives have been so difficult why are there so many rich people here with 1million usd + houses, high end apartments, fancy cars (at least 2 x the cost of the same cars in the West) So many private schools here etc. I have struggled with this for years & never come to an answer & I dont think its cos they are all from the North like a lot of the Vietnamese tell me. I see more rich people & families here than I did back home thats for sure & OK I do see more super poor here too.

goodolboy wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

Pvmhien wrote:

Except for the 10% you quoted, the rest although showing pro-Western, actually they are silently support CMNist without asking.

I disagree with your statement that aside from (I'm sure that's the word you meant to write and not "except for") the 10% of the population who are card carrying party members, the rest of the country are silent supporters of the communist party.

The reasons for my disagreement:

- As this is a communist country, there's no reason for anyone to be silent supporters of the communist party.  Silently support one's government why pretending to prefer someone else?  That's illogical beyond words.

- Saigon is a land of capitalists, no if, ands, or buts about it.  It has been that way since the Nguyen Lords took the land from the Khmer and allowed their subjects to homestead at will (read my post #48).  If you doubt my statement, study old history books (not the ones being used in classrooms in the last 45 years).  The proof was shown as far back as in Lê Quý Đôn's works.

- Saigoneers owe their loyalty only to their daily bread and no other ideology.  They do not pretend to be anyone's supporters; they simply go with whomever offers the opportunities for a better life.  From the end of the 19th century until 1975, they were pro-French, pro-Republic, and pro-American.  The only subjugator they were adamantly against was the Japanese due to the cruel treatment the latter imposed upon the former.

- In my first visit in 2006 and again in the last 3+ years since I made VN my home, I've spoken with hundreds of Saigoneers, from taxi drivers to medium and large business owners.  We talked about their lives, their struggle, their hope, and their "if I could change one thing about my government" pipe dream.  During those uncountable conversations, I've yet to meet anyone who cares one whit about The War, but they do tell me in details how difficult their lives have been since The War ended. 

The only positive thing shared by most of those people:  there are more public parks now than pre -'75.

- Is the pro-Western attitude found in the majority of Vietnamese in the South just for show while they support something else in silent, as you statement indicated?  Let's put it this way:  parents are borrowing money to send their children to English language schools; women are marrying men triple their ages to acquire a foreign passport;  Nike and Adidas are the favourite footwear brands;  Gucci, even the fake version, is the vied-for gift; USD is the best way to build a nest egg, second only to gold; and in spite of the good Vietnamese food, McD, pizza, and doughnuts are loved by all age groups.

Need I say more?

During those uncountable conversations, I've yet to met anyone who cares one whit about The War, but they do tell me in details how difficult their lives have been since The War ended.

I dont doubt for one minute your summery dear girl but what I dont get & never have is the statement in bold. If their lives have been so difficult why are there so many rich people here with 1million usd + houses, high end apartments, fancy cars (at least 2 x the cost of the same cars in the West) So many private schools here etc. I have struggled with this for years & never come to an answer & I dont think its cos they are all from the North like a lot of the Vietnamese tell me. I see more rich people & families here than I did back home thats for sure & OK I do see more super poor here too.

Dont forget that many of those who have prospered have links to the govt in some way. Vietnams richest man and woman both have relatives in high positions in Ha Noi.

I must say the reductiin in poverty has been good, all due to......capitalism.

colinoscapee wrote:

So, if you went to a doctor and was told that you have cancer without doing any tests, would you believe the doctor. Of course not! you would want to see something to back up the doctors diagnosis. My exact point here is all that you offer is your opinion.

I have a feeling you are from the north.

I rest my case.

You are half right for the hospital case.
Looking back across the point mentioned about 90%. Needn't show for the things in this very topic. Your doubt is, honestly, not my concerning.
The minor point, your feeling from the North utterly betrayed you and you are incorrect.

colinoscapee wrote:

Just to add, if these people are silent supporters of Communism, why are they living and wanting Capitalist lives, it makes not one ounce of sense.

I feel Pvmhien has been reading the very propaganda that is put in place to gain this very misinformed line of thinking.

Anyway, enough about politics.

Oh well, they want but doesn't mean they must do. They are two different things.

Their lifestyle now acts exactly what CMN has been doing.
"You said you do not like China. But you act faultlessly and infallible-ly the same as them."
Saying or wanting doesn't reflect it. And made it your acts.
Propaganda: this make me think about your 10%, feel sorry for you. And you will excuse me for my rudeness. As well as pardon my French. But it is a ineffable twaddle, my dear gentleman.

It loses the time.

goodolboy wrote:

If their lives have been so difficult why are there so many rich people here with 1million usd + houses, high end apartments, fancy cars (at least 2 x the cost of the same cars in the West) So many private schools here etc. I see more rich people & families here than I did back home thats for sure & OK I do see more super poor here too.

Colin gave you the answer very succinctly.  The gap between the have and the have-nots in this country is about the size of the Grand Canyon.  Both groups rely on capitalism for their living, but one has connections while the other has only their sweat.

colinoscapee wrote:

goodolboy wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

I disagree with your statement that aside from (I'm sure that's the word you meant to write and not "except for") the 10% of the population who are card carrying party members, the rest of the country are silent supporters of the communist party.

The reasons for my disagreement:

- As this is a communist country, there's no reason for anyone to be silent supporters of the communist party.  Silently support one's government why pretending to prefer someone else?  That's illogical beyond words.

- Saigon is a land of capitalists, no if, ands, or buts about it.  It has been that way since the Nguyen Lords took the land from the Khmer and allowed their subjects to homestead at will (read my post #48).  If you doubt my statement, study old history books (not the ones being used in classrooms in the last 45 years).  The proof was shown as far back as in Lê Quý Đôn's works.

- Saigoneers owe their loyalty only to their daily bread and no other ideology.  They do not pretend to be anyone's supporters; they simply go with whomever offers the opportunities for a better life.  From the end of the 19th century until 1975, they were pro-French, pro-Republic, and pro-American.  The only subjugator they were adamantly against was the Japanese due to the cruel treatment the latter imposed upon the former.

- In my first visit in 2006 and again in the last 3+ years since I made VN my home, I've spoken with hundreds of Saigoneers, from taxi drivers to medium and large business owners.  We talked about their lives, their struggle, their hope, and their "if I could change one thing about my government" pipe dream.  During those uncountable conversations, I've yet to meet anyone who cares one whit about The War, but they do tell me in details how difficult their lives have been since The War ended. 

The only positive thing shared by most of those people:  there are more public parks now than pre -'75.

- Is the pro-Western attitude found in the majority of Vietnamese in the South just for show while they support something else in silent, as you statement indicated?  Let's put it this way:  parents are borrowing money to send their children to English language schools; women are marrying men triple their ages to acquire a foreign passport;  Nike and Adidas are the favourite footwear brands;  Gucci, even the fake version, is the vied-for gift; USD is the best way to build a nest egg, second only to gold; and in spite of the good Vietnamese food, McD, pizza, and doughnuts are loved by all age groups.

Need I say more?

During those uncountable conversations, I've yet to met anyone who cares one whit about The War, but they do tell me in details how difficult their lives have been since The War ended.

I dont doubt for one minute your summery dear girl but what I dont get & never have is the statement in bold. If their lives have been so difficult why are there so many rich people here with 1million usd + houses, high end apartments, fancy cars (at least 2 x the cost of the same cars in the West) So many private schools here etc. I have struggled with this for years & never come to an answer & I dont think its cos they are all from the North like a lot of the Vietnamese tell me. I see more rich people & families here than I did back home thats for sure & OK I do see more super poor here too.

Dont forget that many of those who have prospered have links to the govt in some way. Vietnams richest man and woman both have relatives in high positions in Ha Noi.

I must say the reductiin in poverty has been good, all due to......capitalism.

Many but not all have connections I think. For example round where I live D12 (you know the area) most of the houses are in the at least 500,000usd to 1 million usd range. Most have little factories on the ground floor churning out what ever. Most but not all have at least one car which predominantly seem to be Mercedes, BMW or Toyota Camry's & many many send their kids to the abundance of private schools round here. It just seems strange where all the cash comes from & I dont think it sort of covers 10% if you know what I mean!!

goodolboy wrote:

It just seems strange where all the cash comes from & I dont think it sort of covers 10% if you know what I mean!!

I think the 10% that Colin quoted are only card carriers; the others are their friends, relatives, friends of friends, friends of relatives, relatives of friends, and loads of eager beavers who are willing to pay for a piece of the pie.

There was a book "The rising dragon" written by a UK journo, very interesting read. Unfortunately the book was banned in VN.

colinoscapee wrote:

There was a book "The rising dragon" written by a UK journo, very interesting read. Unfortunately the book was banned in VN.

E-books is the option. You simply download the book from Amazon UK or US.

Note: The above comment is not a suggestion for an unlawful act; e-books and Amazon both are legal and available in VN.

Ciambella wrote:

colinoscapee wrote:

There was a book "The rising dragon" written by a UK journo, very interesting read. Unfortunately the book was banned in VN.

E-books is the option. You simply download the book from Amazon UK or US.

Note: The above comment is not a suggestion for an unlawful act; e-books and Amazon both are legal and available in VN.

Yeah, e-books might be the way to go. It was an interesting read. Also, the authors visa wasnt renewed once the govt realised what he was writing about.

I read Vietnam; Rising Dragonas an e-book while I was still living in Vietnam.  I ordered it without even realizing the banned status.  A lot of his examples are obviously dated, but the arguments he is making come through.  This is a good example of the fact that while the Party does keep an eye on the internet, I maintains a very light touch.

While Ciambella, in my opinion, is absolutely correct about the attitudes in Saigon, she must concede that Party support is stronger in the countryside, probably because the relative improvement in the standard of living is so much greater.  Under Thieu, almost all rice was cultivated under tenancy agreements where the landlord got 50% shares.  The initial collectivization was reputedly rather brutal but since then the form could be described as semi-collectivized, with the government apparently mostly concerned with input or supplies and with marketing the crop.  I know that in my wife's hometown there is quite strong Party support particularly among those old enough to have been directly touched by the war.  I have never been north of Hue, but I expect that Party support is somewhat stronger there too.

Here is an interesting "what if" that I sometimes think about.   What if Ho Chi Minh, clearly a pragmatist, had been about a decade younger and had not lost control of the government to Lê Duẩn, who was a rather severe Stalinist, in the late 60's?  A related conjecture would be:  What if the elections had been held in 1955 and Vietnam had been unified under Ho?

Ciambella wrote:

Pvmhien wrote:

Except for the 10% you quoted, the rest although showing pro-Western, actually they are silently support CMNist without asking.

I disagree with your statement that aside from (I'm sure it's the word you meant to write and not "except for") the 10% of the population who are card carrying party members, the rest of the country are silent supporters of the communist party.

The reasons for my disagreement:

- As this is a communist country, there's no reason for anyone to be silent supporters of the communist party.  Silently support one's government why pretending to prefer someone else?  That's illogical beyond words.

- Saigon is a land of capitalists, no if, ands, or buts about it.  It has been that way since the Nguyen Lords took the land from the Khmer and allowed their subjects to homestead at will (read my post #48).  If you doubt my statement, study old history books (not the ones being used in classrooms in the last 45 years).  The proof was shown as far back as in Lê Quý Đôn's works.

- Saigoneers owe their loyalty only to their daily bread and no other ideology.  They do not pretend to be anyone's supporters; they simply go with whomever offers the opportunities for a better life.  From the end of the 19th century until 1975, they were pro-French, pro-Republic, and pro-American.  The only subjugator they were adamantly against was the Japanese due to the cruel treatment the latter imposed upon the former.

- In my first visit in 2006 and again in the last 3+ years since I made VN my home, I've spoken with hundreds of Saigoneers, from taxi drivers to medium and large business owners.  We talked about their lives, their struggle, their hope, and their "if I could change one thing about my government" pipe dream.  During those uncountable conversations, I've yet to meet anyone who cares one whit about The War, but they do tell me in details how difficult their lives have been since The War ended. 

The only positive thing shared by most of those people:  there are more public parks now than pre -'75.

- Is the pro-Western attitude found in the majority of Vietnamese in the South just for show while they support something else in silent, as you stated?  Let's put it this way:  parents are borrowing money to send their children to English language schools; women are marrying men triple their ages to acquire a foreign passport;  Nike and Adidas are the favourite footwear brands;  Gucci, even the fake version, is the vied-for gift; USD is the best way to build a nest egg, second only to gold; and in spite of the good Vietnamese food, McD, pizza, and doughnuts are loved by all age groups.

Need I say more?

Perhaps.

Let's not forget what life was like as a Buddhist under the brutal and Roman Catholic (and U.S. backed) Saigon regime.

Certainly a significant portion of the population is at least content with what they might consider to be "the lesser of two evils"

Also, there is a myth that the Vietcong were all infiltrators from the North, when the truth is that the VC found it quite easy to recruit from within the southern populace, especially in rural agrarian areas, as that same corrupt Saigon regime had few loyalists in those areas.

Ken Burns does a good job documenting this in his series "The Vietnam War".

I know you've chosen not to view the series, but I think it might be a bit eye opening to someone who grew up as a teenager in the relative safety and security and affluence of Saigon.

I'll add to this that the OP's desire to promote "healing" is just the kind of thing that's getting Vietnamese citizens arrested by the authorities.

I can guarantee that the Government of Vietnam does not consider this nation to be in need of that sort of "healing".

Người Việt Hải Ngoại are certainly welcome to return--or come for the first time--to Vietnam and function here within this society under the government's terms, just as Ciambella has so successfully done.

However, if the OP feels there is a need for joining with others of the diaspora to promote their personal idea of "reunification" may I respectfully suggest that this forum on this particular website for Expats IN Vietnam is not the place to do it.

I'd prefer that the government not be given cause to block this website in-country (where Expats are) due to that which they would certainly view as seditious activity in social media, instigated by "uneducated" Người Việt Hải Ngoại

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Let's not forget what life was like as a Buddhist under the brutal and Roman Catholic (and U.S. backed) Saigon regime.

...  I think it might be a bit eye opening to someone who grew up as a teenager in the relative safety and security and affluence of Saigon.

You're correct that my knowledge has always been confined to Saigon.  I've made sure that fact was clear in my posts by never speaking of life in VN, only life in Saigon, the same way I spoke only of the history of Saigon and the mentality of Saigoneers in this thread.

In re: the treatment of Buddhists under the last regime, that's another discrepancy between Saigon and the rest of the country. 

I read of the sufferance which Buddhist monks had to endure in parts of the country and the discrimination against Buddhists, but my parents and all of us children saw very little of it in Saigon.  Coming from a Buddhist family, I attended services in pagodas with my mother and siblings (father never went where there's a crowd) at least twice monthly, more often during January and July on the lunar calendar.  We were not prevented to do so during the 9 years living under Ngo Dinh Diem's regime.  We all acquired Buddhist names after becoming devoted Buddhists through a series of ceremonies called "taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha" (Quy Y Tam Bảo).  I don't remember any obstacles that kept us from the pagodas or ceremonies.

We all knew of the self immolation of Hòa Thượng Thích Quảng Đức.  We all saw the lock on Xá Lợi pagoda's gate the day after the goon squad stomped in to steal his unburned heart.  Still, for apolitical folks like us, the practice of our faith went on without impediment.

Ciambella wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Let's not forget what life was like as a Buddhist under the brutal and Roman Catholic (and U.S. backed) Saigon regime.

...  I think it might be a bit eye opening to someone who grew up as a teenager in the relative safety and security and affluence of Saigon.

You're correct that my knowledge has always been confined to Saigon.  I make sure that fact was clear in my posts by never speaking of life in VN, only life in Saigon, the same way I spoke only of the history of Saigon and the mentality of Saigoneers in this thread.

In re: the treatment of Buddhists under the last regime, that's another discrepancy between Saigon and the rest of the country. 

I read of the sufferance which Buddhist monks had to endure in parts of the country and the discrimination against Buddhists, but my parents and all of us children saw very little of it in Saigon.  Coming from a Buddhist family, I attended services in pagodas with my mother and siblings (father never went where there's a crowd) at least twice monthly, more often during January and July on the lunar calendar.  We were not prevented to do so during the 9 years living under Ngo Dinh Diem's regime.  We all acquired Buddhist names after becoming devoted Buddhists through a series of ceremonies called "taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha" (Quy Y Tam Bảo).  I don't remember any obstacles that kept us from the pagodas or ceremonies.

We all knew of the self immolation of Hòa Thượng Thích Quảng Đức.  We all saw the lock on Xá Lợi pagoda's gate the day after the goon squad stomped in to steal his unburned heart.  Still, for apolitical folks like us, the practice of our faith went on without impediment.

I always appreciate the authenticity and honesty in your sharing about your early life here, my dear friend.

Ciambella wrote:

tyel wrote:

What does OB mean?

It's the abbreviation for OceanBeach92107. 

tyel wrote:

So what you are saying is in Saigon people are less sensitive about how to call it?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

tyel wrote:

Do you know why? I have the feeling that Saigon is very western culture oriented, is that true or was it just my perception?

For almost 400 years, Saigon has been a land of homesteaders and immigrants (Saigon became part of VN either in the middle or at the end of the 17th century; I can't remember the exact year as my brain is a bit mushy at the moment). 

There were times during the first half of those four centuries when barely a local government existed to rule the land, thus the people created their own systems of customs and traditions under which their new lives and society were established.  Since they were all newcomers, everything and everyone was welcomed.  The native Khmer people, the French conquerors in 19th century, the Chinese immigrants, the relocated North Vietnamese in 1954, the Americans in the '60s, they came, they influenced, and Saigon absorbed.  The easy acceptance attitude has its flaw: Saigon is not overly sensitive about anything including its own history.  (Admittedly, Saigon is amongst the newest acquired land so there's not much history there to preserve.)

Yes, Saigon is very western culture oriented.  However, its younger generation is absolutely crazy about Korean beauty standards, and the new parents are following Japanese parenting method to a tee.  It was a hodgepodge of a land 400 years ago and it's still a hodgepodge of a land today.

@Ciambella, I noticed I haven't replied yet here. Your history knowledge is remarkable, thank you for sharing these informations.

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

I'll add to this that the OP's desire to promote "healing" is just the kind of thing that's getting Vietnamese citizens arrested by the authorities.

I can guarantee that the Government of Vietnam does not consider this nation to be in need of that sort of "healing".

Người Việt Hải Ngoại are certainly welcome to return--or come for the first time--to Vietnam and function here within this society under the government's terms, just as Ciambella has so successfully done.

However, if the OP feels there is a need for joining with others of the diaspora to promote their personal idea of "reunification" may I respectfully suggest that this forum on this particular website for Expats IN Vietnam is not the place to do it.

I'd prefer that the government not be given cause to block this website in-country (where Expats are) due to that which they would certainly view as seditious activity in social media, instigated by "uneducated" Người Việt Hải Ngoại

@OceanBeach92107,

Is that the feeling that you have? If yes, sorry, it wasn't clear. However, I'd like to get this straight. I am not planning to create a political group to overthrow any administration or start a revolution (independently of if I'd ever be able to).

Hence, money, power and corruption doesn't care about borders, whether you are from the North, South, West or East, also if  you are a democrat, republican, communist, socialist or whatever is possible. It applies to all social classes and political mindsets in every corner of the world, some do it to feed their greed, others to get out of poverty to survive. Often it is just a matter of time, amount and opportunity to grab it.

I am not that arrogant/ignorant to think I can return to Vietnam and 'heal' the country with a bunch of others with a similar history only because we had access to opportunities (e.g. freedom of speech) that others may don't have. Of course in every country we visit or live we somehow have to stick to the government's terms, whether we agree or not.

With the idea of a group for Expats of Vietnamese origin (partly or fully) I rather thought of a group that takes away the thought of "Oh, you are from the North/South, sorry, I think you can't join us." than "Thanks for your interest. If you want to share your story, you are welcome to do so. If not, that's fine, let's move on to other topics."

I personally just want to prevent to be in a group of "Người Việt Hải Ngoại" that returns to Vietnam to just make quick and a lot of (dirty) money. If it's not possible to find such group, then it's not possible and I won't try to be in a position to ignore that limitation.

Does that make sense to you?

P.S. When you use 'uneducated' what are you refering to? To the history or to a government's rules? For me 'being un-/educated' is often connected to whether you have the chance, resources (e.g. financially, networks, time, etc.) or will (e.g. political) to be educated. In my opinion to call someone 'uneducated' happens often onesided from those in positions of power to belittle others without looking deeper into the 'why'. Often people just use it without reflecting it, especially when it's adopted from somewhere else and marked in quotes. I know you didn't mean it in that way, it is just a FYI.

Just a short shoutout...
We do not need to agree in all topics, but I want to let you know: 

I am grateful and I want to thank everyone of you who contribute to this thread with your time, knowledge, experience and opinions. I am learning a lot here and for me it's very helpful to get more insights into the different ways of thinking and living in or related to Vietnam.

In light of the discussion here of what to call the war, I was amused to see it referred to in this VN Express article as "the Vietnam War" in addition to other descriptors.  300kg bomb  I don't know if the VN Express is government owned but it certainly must be government sanctioned.

THIGV wrote:

In light of the discussion here of what to call the war, I was amused to see it referred to in this VN Express article as "the Vietnam War" ... I don't know if the VN Express is government owned but it certainly must be government sanctioned.

VNExpress is owned by the Joint Stock Company FPT whose international investors and shareholders include two American conglomerates Texas Pacific Group Investment Fund and Intel Capital.

Although VNExpress is highly recommended by the high muckety-muck as the fastest and most reliable news source in the country, their staff do not write all the articles themselves.  They routinely cull news from foreign eNewspapers then translating into Vietnamese.  In the past, some of the translation showed serious errors when the translators completely missed the nuances of English language. 

Whenever I read the international edition or a translated article in the Vietnamese edition, I always make sure the article is legit before quoting them, mainly because Daily Mail and The Sun are amongst their top international sources.   

In re: the term Vietnam War in that article, it's only being used in the international edition.  In the Vietnamese edition, the article was taken directly from the Party, cabinet, and military newspapers (Nhân Dân, Lao Động, Quân Đội Nhân Dân, Tuổi Trẻ, Thanh Niên) the term being used was simply "chiến tranh" (the war, in lower case).

"German looking for info ..." and "German expat" is a bit harsh, and actually misleading in terms of the situation. and, btw, i do not see any information about current citizenship? what options/rights does Vietnam birth (and i presume Viet parents) give you?

myvietnam wrote:

"German looking for info ..." and "German expat" is a bit harsh, and actually misleading in terms of the situation. and, btw, i do not see any information about current citizenship? what options/rights does Vietnam birth (and i presume Viet parents) give you?

- Why would it be harsh saying "German looking for information about Vietnam" and "German expat in Vietnam"?  Would it be harsh saying someone is "Australian looking for information about Vietnam", and "Australian expat in Vietnam"? 

- Why would it be misleading when the OP indicated that even though she was born in VN, she has been living almost all her life in Germany, and she travelled to VN on a tourist visa?  If she still has Vietnamese citizenship, she would've been able to apply for a Vietnamese passport and would've never needed any kind of visa to return to her country.  Adding those facts together, the only outcome would be a German citizenship.  You said you did not see any information about current citizenship, but had you read her posts carefully, you would've seen that her current citizenship must be from the West, which in this case is German.

You asked what options/rights does Vietnam birth to Vietnamese parents give her.  My answer is  "not a thing if her parents who moved her to Germany didn't become a German citizen.  But if they did, then she has the rights to become German citizen as well."

- One did not leave VN with one's young child to move to a Western country, raised that child there until she became a full fledge adult, did something that made the child lose her Vietnamese birthright, and still not trying to become the citizen of the host country.

- One left VN because one must. 

- One became citizen of another country because it's the only logical choice. 

- One did not lose Vietnamese citizenship unless one decided to give it up or did something against the Vietnamese government.

- If the very last scenario happened in reality, one's entire family (that means the child too) wouldn't be able to return to VN again.

There you go.  Nothing harsh.  Nothing misleading.  She may be a Vietnamese in her heart but on her passport, she's a German citizen and may become a German expat in the future.  In the eye of the law of both countries, she is a German, full stop.