VNese customs once your part of VNese family?
I am about at my wit send as it seems everything I do is closely watched and criticized e.g.
1.) I am td not to joke with certain members of the family as they are considered above me. Yet no one has explained who is above and below me ( other than the grandparents I by far the oldest person)
2.) I'm told I am being disrespectful for backing motorbike out of someone's garage . All I did was back it in the way I thought I could best handle it. Nothing was damaged or hit and I got it out. The anger came about because it was my future mother-in-law that was telling not to do it that way,being through her daughter. I don't understand VNese and my GF did not explain this prefer was coming from her mother.
3.) while celebrating TET at the family get together everyone is doing their own thing, watching TV, playing video games/ cards, yet I pick up my iPhone to make a necessary bank transfer and I'm told to stop it is disrespectful.
4.) while handling the exchange of "Red Pocket Lucky Money" I apparently did it wrong and was again scolded. Seems I was suppose to do something with two hands. No one bothered to explain this and how I was to do it.
I just feel people are watching and judging me harshly w/o every telling me what I should or should not be doing. I feel like I no longer have a life that I have any control over. I can't watch t.v. when I wish, have any say in how my money is spent, eat when I want, laugh and joke when I want. I was even told I was wrong to shake someone's hand.
How on earth can I offend a VNese person who speaks no English if I tell a joke in English through my GF that translate. I would think if it might be offensive she would tell me she could not tell them that joke.
Does anyone know of any place one can attend classes on VNese customs and courtesies. I spent a career in the military and as soon as we arrived in a new country we were indoctrinated as to the local customs and those things that could offend. It was very helpful.
Any suggestions or conversation on this issues would be greatly appreciated.
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- In Asia, you marry a family not a single person.
- Many things are expressed in a very subtle, indirect way. You are expected to observe and follow.
If you cannot adapt to this, don't marry an Asian - you'd be unhappy for the rest of the relationship!
I never implied I could not adapt to anything. As long as that anything is known. I had hoped that someone could provide insight to some of these family customs. It seems that there are more concrete rules as they pertain to level of respect paid to other family members for example. Surely someone can tell an unknowing person just what that is. It also seems you are not allowed to tell jokes to certain people in this pecking order, even though they do not understand English they may get offended if you joke. Pointing to a picture of an unknown family member picture on the wall contains some manner of custom ritual and is taboo. It seems you are as clueless about these nuances as I am so are not much help. But I appreciate you giving it the old college try.
Matter of fact I like and enjoy the fact you marry the family.
What seems harsh to you is not intended as such by them. It shows that they want you to know even if it does seem bad to you. Be the 'grey man', sit quietly, watch listen and learn. Smile,do not take offence.
As beppi stated, accept it or you will never get on.
If your relatives openly tell you not to do this or that, it could be
- because they have adapted to Western, direct ways, OR
- because you consistently ignored their previous attempt by e.g. changing their facial expression or quietly sighing when you did this before and they are at their wits end about how to tell you without confrontation (this is what directly telling you is seen as in Asia!).
I cannot tell which of the two is the case here, but I suspect it's the latter.
In any case, it is certainly more irritating to them than it is to you!
I hope others can add some other customs that we may not know of. I'm still not clear on the pecking order of the family. I don't think, although I am almost the oldest of them all that I enter into the pecking order, although I am to a certain extent considered at the same level as my fiancee/wife. It is also strange and confusing just what the relative is. For example sister, is not the same as our sister in the West. Aunts and uncles as we know them are not the same here e.g my uncles wife would be my aunt-in-law.
I find it odd at my age to have my younger mother-in-law tell me to do this or that, and because she is the highest in the pecking order I must obey her out of respect.
I recommend that, as long as you are guest in your in-law's house, you accept their ideas (and "pecking order", as you mistakenly call it), even if you don't like it. With your wife in your own home, you need to find a mutually acceptable middle ground. Good luck on the journey to finding it!
bta87 wrote:Beppi,
I never implied I could not adapt to anything. As long as that anything is known. I had hoped that someone could provide insight to some of these family customs. It seems that there are more concrete rules as they pertain to level of respect paid to other family members for example. Surely someone can tell an unknowing person just what that is. It also seems you are not allowed to tell jokes to certain people in this pecking order, even though they do not understand English they may get offended if you joke. Pointing to a picture of an unknown family member picture on the wall contains some manner of custom ritual and is taboo. It seems you are as clueless about these nuances as I am so are not much help. But I appreciate you giving it the old college try.
Matter of fact I like and enjoy the fact you marry the family.
I had similar issue with my vnese ex wife family, I tried to adjust and learn, and something's I did learn, however, the way I handled it, was to clearly infiom my soon to be vnese wife, that respect her , her culture and her family, but I am NOT vnese and I may not do thing their way, I apologized to her but made it clear I'm only marrying her. In a polite way. We were happily married for 16 years and two beautiful daughters.
I think that your in-laws are being a little too harsh on you. My wife is Vietnamese, and I have made MANY cultural mistakes with my in-laws, but no one ever made a big deal out of it. I have pointed at things (didn't even know it was rude until I read it on the internet because no one told me), constantly call people the wrong pronoun (chi, co, etc.), and have done other things (probably even more than I realize) that have been culturally wrong. My in-laws usually get a chuckle and then let me know the right thing to do. Are your in-laws Buddhist? Mine are Catholic, and I have heard that Buddhists are a little more serious about stuff like that.
I am sure this goes without saying, but it will be to everyone's benefit for yall to work something out. Either they need to learn to cut you some slack or you are going to have to work very hard to make sure that you don't make any future mistakes. Everyone says that you marry the whole family, but for many, the magnitude of the statement may not be realized until after the marriage is complete.
I assume it is just coming directly from her, her idea, but in fact it is coming from a person that is owed respect.
Her an I disagree on a multitude of things ( such as how to peel a carrot or wash a glass) so I tend to ignore her now. Of course, the speaker has delivered their message and they think it was translated. So now I am ignoring a persons who I should give respect to.
I feel as if my entire life has been taken away from me. I use to be able to iron my cloths just fine and brush my teeth just fine, now I do it wrong. It seems that at least in the circle of VNese I know (family) that their way is the
only way ALWAYS.
I love to cook and be in the kitchen helping cook, but now I no longer enjoy that either. I can't cut meat write, boil water right or anything. So I stay away .now that is not liked either. Feel like I am 4 years old now.
bta87 wrote:Thanks for all the inputs guys, they are very helpful. I will try and get the book as well. I think some of the problem is my GF does not tell me when she translates (She speaks great English) who is actually speaking.
I assume it is just coming directly from her, her idea, but in fact it is coming from a person that is owed respect.
Her an I disagree on a multitude of things ( such as how to peel a carrot or wash a glass) so I tend to ignore her now. Of course, the speaker has delivered their message and they think it was translated. So now I am ignoring a persons who I should give respect to.
I feel as if my entire life has been taken away from me. I use to be able to iron my cloths just fine and brush my teeth just fine, now I do it wrong. It seems that at least in the circle of VNese I know (family) that their way is the
only way ALWAYS.
I love to cook and be in the kitchen helping cook, but now I no longer enjoy that either. I can't cut meat write, boil water right or anything. So I stay away .now that is not liked either. Feel like I am 4 years old now.
Remember , marriage is a union of two people, dint give up ur culture, ur enjoyments , ur manhood, just because ur in love, both parties need to adjust to each other, she must also adapt to ur idiosyncrasies, both parties in the marriage must be flexible , I myself wouldn't marry into this situation , good luck
Another thing to remember a lot of Vietnamese have a hard time translating from viet to English and visa a versa. Things always get mixed up in translation. Even some viet kieus that have an excellent command of the English language will screw it up at times.
I think your right on both accounts. I'm convinced I'm with a very controlling person. One sure indicator of a person who feels they have a right to control someone is when they strike you because they could not. This is the first time I have ever been struck by a anyone, let alone a female.
I was once married to an Italian and she explained the difficult process of receiving a message in your non-native tongue, having to process it through your mother tongue database then reply in a matter of seconds was such a daunting task. So I can appreciate the difficulty. Indeed some things certainly have been language translations issues.
I don't want to paint a bad picture, as she is so kind and cares for me so. She is 35 and never has had to do things any other way than hers. She is just now going through what many of us did when we were much younger learn that we can speak out and express ourselves and we do not have to "speak when spoken to" lifestyle we had when we were children at home. So I realize there will be a learning curve.
But this is what makes life in a new country so challenging and exciting. This is my 63 country and I so enjoy it, and truly love VN and it's people.
Sorry to hear what you are experiencing.
You are asking us to tell you how to behave. It is a huge subject, with many intricate rules. People spend a lifetime adjusting to it. Judgments are important too. As soon I can tell you a rule, I can immediately tell several situations where it does not apply. I don't know even how to start.
I would have to blame your wife for not doing a good job telling you how to behave. She knows the rules and she is the best one to explain.
Lastly, I really think you should look at your own attitude concerning the willingness to adapt. Often, the clues are all there to see, but one's own attitude and preconception get into one's way.
The specific rules you are mentioning.
1. No pointing to the deceased: as mentioning before, pointing to someone is normally associated with being angry at that person. You don't do it to a person, let alone your ancestors. Exception: pointing (or rather pinpointing) to a normal picture (not the one on the altar) is fine.
2. Ranking: You have the same rank as your wife. Your mother (in law) is higher than you thus you have to respect. Does not matter how old (or young) she is. Similarly, you have to give respect to the brother-in-law who is older than your wife (even though he is younger than your son).
Two related rules I have to mention, if you don't already know. It is related to the concept of head being sacred and foot being dirty/offending
1. don't ever touch an Asian grown-up head (tussle their hair). The West is associated with friendliness, but in Asia, it is the biggest faux-pas you can make.
2. Don't put your feet up (when sitting), not even to the table, let alone to an alter. In Thailand, you cannot even point your foot to the direction of another person('s head) when sitting (even when the foot rests on the floor). Vietnamese is not so strict, but the foot has to rest on the floor in all circumstances.
Your GF should also be teaching you what is 'right and wrong', however; if you have a controlling GF at this point in the game.
Maybe you should reconsider your options.
Anatta stated some of the do's and don'ts to get you started, take heed.
If you make a genuine effort to learn and the Mother-in-Law still doesn't like you, then maybe she 'really' doesn't want her daughter to date / marry a foreigner or she just may be a difficult person... period.
You will have to decide for yourself.
Good Luck
bta87 wrote:Milkbunny,
Yes they are Confucian, and none that I know of are anything else.
All Asian societies are based off of such, but I mean actual practitioners. That hardcore level of following it I tend to only see with Hoa people like my in-laws. Which makes me think your in-laws are just being harsh for other reasons.
And all who provided specific custom rules. This is what I was hoping to learn. Most folks I've talked to their GF wives guide them through all this so they can learn. My GF seems to have problems doing this. For example when we when to seek her mums permission I asked her long before to walk me through this. Yet I walked in cold and said all the wrong things.
But on another note I find it stifling to have to seek permission to use my cell phone or to even tell a joke. Even though I do all the house work, if I stop for a moment to take a break and use my computer, I'm jumped on. At the momentI'm staying in a hotel just so that I don't have controlling eyes watching my every move. I have never felt like I have lost so much control over my own life. I am just curious if I should expect this from all VNese ladies.
I really appreciate all the comments from all of you. This issue of feet up is also very common in the middle East as I'm sure VTD can attest to as well.
So this controlling everything is part of the package if you marry a VNese lady. Oh my word! That sounds just like my situation. If this is the case I just could not live in such a controlled environment. Heck I was not controlled that much by my parents when I was young. Now I need that at 63, no way!
bta87 wrote:Anatta,
And all who provided specific custom rules. This is what I was hoping to learn. Most folks I've talked to their GF wives guide them through all this so they can learn. My GF seems to have problems doing this. For example when we when to seek her mums permission I asked her long before to walk me through this. Yet I walked in cold and said all the wrong things.
But on another note I find it stifling to have to seek permission to use my cell phone or to even tell a joke. Even though I do all the house work, if I stop for a moment to take a break and use my computer, I'm jumped on. At the momentI'm staying in a hotel just so that I don't have controlling eyes watching my every move. I have never felt like I have lost so much control over my own life. I am just curious if I should expect this from all VNese ladies.
I really appreciate all the comments from all of you. This issue of feet up is also very common in the middle East as I'm sure VTD can attest to as well.
Guy you got red flags flying all over the place. Can't you see them? 40 years of marriage and I've never heard of half the stuff you say she's doing. I'd be looking in the rear view mirror on that arrangement. Life to short and there are a whole bunch better pickin's out there.
Agree. That is part and parcel of why I'm now living in a hotel. In Psychology I learned that that last ditch effort of a commuted controller is to strike there disobedient target, or worse. When I discuss the controlling aspect with her she always relies I do it because I love you, or I only want to help you. It seems that all controllers are there to help us and be our parents.
I wonder if she does not educate me on VNese customs in order to have even more control over me ( see you can not get by w/o me)
I would differentiate the customs in 3 categories.
1. General rules: Some of the basic ones I have mentioned briefly. It is hard to me to explain since it is like explaining how to ride a bike: one just does it automatically. It is easier if you mention it first then I can help explain the why and the what.
There are some hard and fast rules like talking off your shoes when entering the home.
2. Specific rules for the regions: Each regions have, in addition, some additional rules. In general, the North, because of its more rigid social mores (not to mention additional 30 years of communist Big Brother rules) has more rules.
3. Quirks, idiosyncratic behavior: This varies widely from family to family. A lot of what you mention sounds like belonging to this category (no using the phone or PC,...). Uneducated people sticks to the rules religiously when educated people are more understanding (but they do have more sophisticated rules of their own).
In addition, superstition is big in Vietnam, so a lot of rules are from ignorant people sticking to some ridiculous beliefs.
The New Year is a good occasion for those rules.
Here are some of them
https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=220370
Lastly, Fengshui (A Chinese tradition) also has a lot of followers here as well.
As always from you a lot of great info. Mine you some of the examples I gave I do not think were associated with TET in anyway e.g. the use of my cell phone. This was well before TET and only my GF complained. Just as I am suppose to rinse drinking glasses twice. She insist this is a must. I wash the dishes with boiling water as well as rinse them with hot water. While she uses only cold water. I thought this might stem from the fact they may not have been able to afford to heat water either by gas stove or electricity, so they simply used cold water. Then I could see the need. Indeed, I would perhaps rinse them more than twice. But why only for the glasses. Another example is when I'm asked to mash fish for fish balls, I must mash them in a counterclockwise direction, clockwise is forbidden. I agree, it seems some of these things are due to a lack of education. I mud be very careful when joking and never do it during serious operations such as locking the front door of the house, as joking may cause distraction and result in serious errors.
I really appreciate all the info on TET. Now I can recall many of the things you mentioned as occurring during the TET celebration. I was mazed at the info someone gave me on all the different uses of a particular flower,or when they are to bloom to bring good luck. I really enjoy learning these nuances to life here. Again thanks.
bta87 wrote:Just as I am suppose to rinse drinking glasses twice. She insist this is a must. I wash the dishes with boiling water as well as rinse them with hot water. While she uses only cold water. I thought this might stem from the fact they may not have been able to afford to heat water either by gas stove or electricity, so they simply used cold water. Then I could see the need. Indeed, I would perhaps rinse them more than twice. But why only for the glasses. Another example is when I'm asked to mash fish for fish balls, I must mash them in a counterclockwise direction, clockwise is forbidden.
Remind me the story I read a long time ago from some American book. The story goes sth like this: a man was also surprised to see his new bride always insists cutting the sausage by both ends before cooking. The wife can never answer why. One day, the man asks his mother-in-law. She cannot answer it either insisting that it is the way to do it since her mother always does it that way. He goes to the grandmother. The old woman laughs and explains: during the Great Famine, they were poor thus had only one small skillet. In order to be able to cook, she had to cut the sausages on both ends to make them fit. Her daughter must have learned the habit that way.
Concerning your examples you mentioned, they are idiosyncratic rules, as far as I am concerned.
Thanks again. I kind of thought so. Funny story by the way. Funny though many habits get started that way and no one knows just why as the originator is long gone.
If I were you, I would run for the hills. Her customs should not be an excuse for her or her family to be control freaks over you. If you think things are bad now just you wait until you are married. I've seen this many times before and believe me it never has a happy ending. No matter how hard you try....you will never satisfy a control freak.
You are so right. Her and I had a long talk a couple of days ago, and she agreed she would do all it takes to make it work and give up her controlling ways. So today she set forth her new plan; anything I wanted or need from her I would submit my request to her in advance, she would then review it if it made sense to HER, and then she would get back to me on when or if she could grant my request. Meanwhile when she tell me not to answer an emergency call I suppose to heed her demands. When she tells me to iron her cloths I don't get to have her submit it for review, I am suppose to do it because I love her. This girl is a nut case. It can only get worse once we get married. For that reason I'm out, as Mark Cuban would say.
Tell you what...when I visit VN, I will let you iron my clothes and I would care one bit how you do it! Just be grateful that you offered! 
I like to laugh & joke around a lot & it is well received by my VN family. The sisters always tell me I am so funny. They are a shy group so perhaps it will just take time, but do keep your own personality, if they can not accept you, you may want to review the whole relationship. Believe me I know little Vietnamese & my wife translates most, but many even learn some English to make me feel more at home.
Hope it all works out for you, the family, once accepting you for you are a wonderful addition to your life. I know what you mean of age & order of who is who & the place they hold. I have figured out I have my wife's position in the family, but is never a rea; issue in my situation. The best of luck & Happy New Year to you.
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