Better Start Breeding?

Have four kids and never pay income tax again, Hungarian mothers told

In an attempt to reverse population decline, Hungary will also offer l oans to women who are marrying for the first time.

Hungarian women who have at least four children will be exempt from paying income tax for the rest of their lives as part of an effort to reverse population decline, the country's prime minister has said.

Right-wing leader Viktor Orban says new measures to increase financial aid and subsidies for families with multiple children will "ensure the survival of the Hungarian nation".

The EU average for the number of children a woman will have in her lifetime is 1.58, but in Hungary, the average is 1.45.

Under Mr Orban's proposals, a low-interest loan of 10 million forints (£27,286) will also be offered to women under 40 who are marrying for the first time.

Other benefits include a subsidy of 2.5 million forints (£6,849) towards the purchase of seven-seater vehicles for families with three or more children.

The prime minister, who was elected for a third consecutive term in April, hopes the measures will increase the country's population without relying on immigration.

Mr Orban has repeatedly opposed immigration, particularly from Muslim countries, and adopted a zero tolerance approach.

However, Hungary's population has been falling by 32,000 a year.

During his "state of the nation" speech, he described Europe's left-wing as "the gravedigger of nations, the family and the Christian way of life".

Mr Orban added: "Those who decide in favour of immigration and migrants, no matter why they do so, are in fact creating a country with a mixed population."

He has accused the EU of wanting to fill the continent with migrants and claimed Hungarian-born financier George Soros is part of a conspiracy to destroy Europe by encouraging mass migration.

An anti-Orban rally was held by members and supporters of Hungary's opposition parties after the prime minister's speech, with protesters using cars to block traffic over the Danube River.

The event was also in protest of heavy fines imposed on a number of opposition parties, which they claim were politically motivated and aimed at hindering their European parliament and municipal election campaigns.

Source: Sky News

Yes, read that.   

I can imagine that being kicked out constitutionally or ECHR ruling on it. Discriminates against women too old, those with medical/fertility problems or those simply without enough kids because of other issues.  It costs a huge amount to bring up a kid. Why don't they just pay women to do that if that's the way forward for HU society?

I find it rather offensive that Orban's  has this vision and characterisation of women as "baby making machines" first and foremost.

I being to think this is some kind of eugenics policy or worse - a variant taken from the  state of Gilead (as described in the Handmaid's Tale).   

What a load of tosh.

We all know what happened with Greece when no tax was being paid?

Most women who have 4 or more children probably wouldn't be paying much or any taxes no matter what the new policies are.'
That's allot of extra mouths to feed and cloth.
Even women who can find the time and energy to work while raising 4 or more children are or should be low tax payers as it is.
I know my mom raised 4 children without any support from our father or the gov.
Not too many people are willing or able to work a full time factory job, clean the house, mow the yard paint the house themselves inside and out run kids to the doctors and dentists and have a hot homemade meals on the table every night.I have no idea if my mother ever slept, probably did a split -shift on dreaming...
She paid taxes on her paycheck in the US but without knowing the details I am guessing she got most of it back at tax time.
I think the gov. should help families but in ways that are practical.
I think the HU gov. does help with medical, dentists and I often see people in the markets using food coupons, not exactly sure what those are.
They should do some things like back when my MIL was raising 3 children alone in Budapest after WW11, very low cost after school care with hot meals for the kids, countrywide low prices on most products that families needed such as milk prices, bread, basic foods and children's clothing being kept at low levels so working people could afford them.Not Nike or designer clothing for children but practical well made items that lasted as hand-me -downs.
It's more a problem of families breaking up and father's not carrying theirshare for the upkeep of their children then a problem of a low cost loan for something that it too expensive for most families to begin with. Such was the case in my fam and in my husband's  our dad's were selfish and flakes, never paid for their children's care after a divorce.
Low cost loan for a van? What's wrong with a used car?
Why try to boost car sales when many families can't even pay their gas or electric bills?
I know my mom often had to choose between paying the monthly bills or buying us new shoes, in the end she usually was able to do both but we knew she wasn't eating like we were and was putting in extra work hours which could of been spent with us instead if we had practical answers not a new van.
Maybe the gov. should put more effort into teaching people to be better spouses and parents , the major problem is families breaking up and father's flaking out or remarrying and not supporting their old families.
In the US now the legal system goes after parents, mother's or father's who do not pay child support.
In my mom's day it was very hard to force them to pay up. Dad's would move from job to job before the legal system could get ahold of some of their income.

Marilyn Tassy :

Most women who have 4 or more children probably wouldn't be paying much or any taxes no matter what the new policies are.'
That's allot of extra mouths to feed and cloth.
Even women who can find the time and energy to work while raising 4 or more children are or should be low tax payers as it is.........
She paid taxes on her paycheck in the US but without knowing the details I am guessing she got most of it back at tax time.
I think the gov. should help families but in ways that are practical.
I think the HU gov. does help with medical, dentists and I often see people in the markets using food coupons, not exactly sure what those are.

They should do some things like back when my MIL was raising 3 children alone in Budapest after WW11, very low cost after school care with hot meals for the kids, countrywide low prices on most products that families needed such as milk prices, bread, basic foods and children's clothing being kept at low levels so working people could afford them.....

It's more a problem of families breaking up and father's not carrying their share for the upkeep of their children then a problem of a low cost loan for something that it too expensive for most families to begin with. Such was the case in my fam and in my husband's  our dad's were selfish and flakes, never paid for their children's care after a divorce.
Low cost loan for a van? What's wrong with a used car?
Why try to boost car sales when many families can't even pay their gas or electric bills?
.....
In the US now the legal system goes after parents, mother's or father's who do not pay child support.
In my mom's day it was very hard to force them to pay up. Dad's would move from job to job before the legal system could get ahold of some of their income.

Lot there Marilyn.....

What you refer to there is deadbeat Dads.  However, I would put it a different way.  When the marriage breaks down and Mum isn't working, Dad has to continue to be the breadwinner but now has to support two houses - two power bills, perhaps two cars, two gas bills etc.  Then if relations between former partners are bad, there's the legal fight (or guerrilla warfare) over assets and the children in the middle as pawns. No access no money. Obviously really.  If only people were more civilised.

I agree getting a nice new van is great but I wonder if the dog counts as a child?  Or my bike?

Strangely we happen to know a OV MP and he's got a giant van for 11 people.  He also views to the right of Herr Hitler.  He believed Hillary was engaged in making youth cures from baby parts from a pizza restaurant in NYC or some really fake news strange conspiracy theory.  This was prior to Herr Trump being elected.  Very odd and weird.

Actually I continued to muse over comparisons with Gilead and like me trying to throw my spare boomerangs away, it hit me.  If they adopt Gilead style politics,  all the women will soon need to wear head scarves and have their decision making "independence" reduced.... clothing and policy remind anyone of anything?

No women should be expected to be brood mares if they do not want children.
God knows I only had one because of my own childhood PTSD issues.
My mom was a very open person, too open at times...Guess I'm the same way.
She always said my father ,"tricked" her into having her first baby and that if she hadn't been so stupid she wouldn't of had anything to do with him.She was taken by his good looks and charming personality.
She said she and her aunties did everything under the sun to get "rid of it" but still my older sister hung on...
Nice mom, don't hold anything back now!!
I was a hole in a rubber myself to hear it told.
The only children she planned on were her last 2.
Guess the first 4 were a try out?
I think people who decide to have large families are brave, I never was that brave.
Being the mother of a male child I understand that father's could be taken advantage of if there was ever a divorce, I think society should try to support families so there are less divorces and less mentally damaged children.
We should think of ways to help families stay together and not be giving booby prizes, cars and homes unless it's really the only thing left to do.Sometimes it might just be a neighbor willing to help baby-sit once a month so the parents can have some alone time or it could be help with paying for some expenses.It is an issue for all of society not just couples, these days couples do not always have the support of near by family to help out like former generations did.

Marilyn Tassy :

No women should be expected to be brood mares if they do not want children.
.....
We should think of ways to help families stay together and not be giving booby prizes, cars and homes unless it's really the only thing left to do.Sometimes it might just be a neighbor willing to help baby-sit once a month so the parents can have some alone time or it could be help with paying for some expenses.It is an issue for all of society not just couples, these days couples do not always have the support of near by family to help out like former generations did.

Yes, you are right.  It's all silly.  Just a gimmick.

I don't see why OV's plan has any merit at all at 4 kids.  HU women have less kids than the EU average (as reported in the press). 

Having 2 kids is higher than the HU or EU average so why 4 kids?  Presumably that's to stop people actually taking up the offer en masse - very few couples will have resources for 4 kids - so he knows the amount claimed will be very low.   

There was the other OV wheeze where you got cash for kids Nos 1 to 2 but not No 3.    Why should No. 3 be punished?  Left and right hands - give with one, take with the other.

fluffy2560 :
Marilyn Tassy :

No women should be expected to be brood mares if they do not want children.
.....
We should think of ways to help families stay together and not be giving booby prizes, cars and homes unless it's really the only thing left to do.Sometimes it might just be a neighbor willing to help baby-sit once a month so the parents can have some alone time or it could be help with paying for some expenses.It is an issue for all of society not just couples, these days couples do not always have the support of near by family to help out like former generations did.

Yes, you are right.  It's all silly.  Just a gimmick.

I don't see why OV's plan has any merit at all at 4 kids.  HU women have less kids than the EU average (as reported in the press). 

Having 2 kids is higher than the HU or EU average so why 4 kids?  Presumably that's to stop people actually taking up the offer en masse - very few couples will have resources for 4 kids - so he knows the amount claimed will be very low.   

There was the other OV wheeze where you got cash for kids Nos 1 to 2 but not No 3.    Why should No. 3 be punished?  Left and right hands - give with one, take with the other.

Exactly so.
Having 4 children in quick order is not an easy thing to do unless you already have a large place to live and resources.
My parents were married 13 years when no. 4 arrived.
My mom wasn't wanting any more children after her first few years of marriage to my dad.
In fact story was she was about to pick up with my 2 sisters and go off on her own when surprise, here I come along...
Most couples divorce before 13 or more years together these days.
The 7 year itch is more like a 3 year rash now days.

Marilyn Tassy :

.............
Exactly so.
Having 4 children in quick order is not an easy thing to do unless you already have a large place to live and resources.
My parents were married 13 years when no. 4 arrived.
My mom wasn't wanting any more children after her first few years of marriage to my dad.
In fact story was she was about to pick up with my 2 sisters and go off on her own when surprise, here I come along...
Most couples divorce before 13 or more years together these days.
The 7 year itch is more like a 3 year rash now days.

Strangely enough or proving the point, the first Mrs and I were together for 13 years.  Being young when we met, working away and just different ideas about everything as we got older just made us become more separate people.   On the other hand, Mrs Fluffy and I are now at about 25 years.  We generally refer to our  previous relationships as training for this one. But it's a tough way to learn.  We know more what we have to do to make it work and keep it going in the right direction. 

We discussed 3 kids but not 4 and we decided we would be too old for it which is a shame - we'd probably have had more if younger.  But we'd do it for us and the kids but not for OV, a tax break and a minivan.  Would anyone take that sort of thing into account when doing family planning? 

What's next, an anti-smoking type campaign with pictures of OV on the condom (US: rubber) or birth control pill packets wagging his finger "Islam" style?  Or crossed out minivans or a woman tearing up her tax return surrounded by her kids?   While musing on this, I wondered if adopted kids raise the number of kids a woman has to have to get to zero tax? Foster kids? Who knows.

SimCityAT :

Have four kids and never pay income tax again, Hungarian mothers told

Yes, I read about this at the NY Times. As with all OV issues, the real details are lacking.

And, what is confusing, I thought the Fidesz party is all about "women should be at home raising the kids". So what income tax should they be relieved from, if they are not in the work force? Color me confused, but I just don't get it. Or is the new party platform to let women enter the work force, not have to pay income tax, after having 4 children, and then the husband stay at home to take care of the kids?

Oh... and that bit, reported at the NY Time article, about building child daycare centers to offset my above comment --- that was an EU grant, based on EU requirements about minimum number of child support in each country. Not a Fidesz concept. And guess what --- My understanding is the Hungarian government has not built all the daycare centers yet for which they were suppose to by this date. Color me confused again... But if they got the EU grant money.... where is it sitting? Gathering interest?

In short --- if you have not noticed, this year is an election year for local governments. So of course OV and Fidesz will be promising all sorts of government giveaways.

Sighs.... Politicians....... Ick.

Seriously. Real economics would simply say to stop abusing Hungarian workers at sub par salaries. The government should promote a work force and labor laws that enable one spouse or the other, regardless of gender, to earn enough to feed the family. There is no need for any other silliness.

And why are such OV ideas silly? Because, unless local economic issues improve in Hungary, those four children per woman will just leave Hungary, like everyone else does, it seems who can, to find better paying jobs abroad in the EU..... So what was the point?

klsallee :
SimCityAT :

Have four kids and never pay income tax again, Hungarian mothers told

Yes, I read about this at the NY Times. As with all OV issues, the real details are lacking.

And, what is confusing, I thought the Fidesz party is all about "women should be at home raising the kids". So what income tax should they be relieved from, if they are not in the work force? Color me confused, but I just don't get it. Or is the new party platform to let women enter the work force, not have to pay income tax, after having 4 children, and then the husband stay at home to take care of the kids?

Oh... and that bit, reported at the NY Time article, about building child daycare centers to offset my above comment --- that was an EU grant, based on EU requirements about minimum number of child support in each country. Not a Fidesz concept. And guess what --- My understanding is the Hungarian government has not built all the daycare centers yet for which they were suppose to by this date. Color me confused again... But if they got the EU grant money.... where is it sitting? Gathering interest?

In short --- if you have not noticed, this year is an election year for local governments. So of course OV and Fidesz will be promising all sorts of government giveaways.

Sighs.... Politicians....... Ick.

Seriously. Real economics would simply say to stop abusing Hungarian workers at sub par salaries. The government should promote a work force and labor laws that enable one spouse or the other, regardless of gender, to earn enough to feed the family. There is no need for any other silliness.

And why are such OV ideas silly? Because, unless local economic issues improve in Hungary, those four children per woman will just leave Hungary, like everyone else does, it seems who can, to find better paying jobs abroad in the EU..... So what was the point?

Well said.
When my mother went to work full time after her divorce, she was only able to afford to support 4 children, 2 of them teenagers, herself  the dog and pet bird because she worked a good paying factory job in aero space. Her journey to even get hired was something else.
Without her WW11 factory experience she probably would of never been able to get the job she did to make enough to scrape by month to month.
In the 1960's every single employer refused to hire her for the longest time because she had 4 children.
They brought up the fact that if we got ill she would miss work etc.
In the end she found a person who looked past her family life and gave her a job.
She worked for several years before she got remarried and my step- father wanted her to stay home and have a couple more children with him.
If she hadn't gotten remarried I'm sure doing it all by herself would of killed her in the long run.
It's one thing to sit around on a computer for work and another to stand on your feet all night long in a factory.
My husband's generation in Hungary did have some stay home mom's but most children were put in state run day care from a very early age.
My husband was only a few months old when his mom went back to work.
I personally do not think that is a normal thing for a mother and small child to be apart so long everyday.
It's not something that was done throughout human history and we can see the results of chlldren being apart from people who love them and being in the care of those who are just doing it for a job.
The older generation who were part of the socialist system and put in day care have allot of alcohol and personality issues if you happen to know any of them you can tell.
Sort of raised to be hard and inwards emotionally and seem to lack empathy towards others.
Mother's can teach children things that no one who is doing it just for a paycheck can ever teach.

klsallee :
SimCityAT :

Have four kids and never pay income tax again, Hungarian mothers told

Yes, I read about this at the NY Times. As with all OV issues, the real details are lacking.

And, what is confusing, I thought the Fidesz party is all about "women should be at home raising the kids". So what income tax should they be relieved from, if they are not in the work force? Color me confused, but I just don't get it. Or is the new party platform to let women enter the work force, not have to pay income tax, after having 4 children, and then the husband stay at home to take care of the kids?

Oh... and that bit, reported at the NY Time article, about building child daycare centers to offset my above comment --- that was an EU grant, based on EU requirements about minimum number of child support in each country. Not a Fidesz concept. And guess what --- My understanding is the Hungarian government has not built all the daycare centers yet for which they were suppose to by this date. Color me confused again... But if they got the EU grant money.... where is it sitting? Gathering interest?

In short --- if you have not noticed, this year is an election year for local governments. So of course OV and Fidesz will be promising all sorts of government giveaways.

Sighs.... Politicians....... Ick.

Seriously. Real economics would simply say to stop abusing Hungarian workers at sub par salaries. The government should promote a work force and labor laws that enable one spouse or the other, regardless of gender, to earn enough to feed the family. There is no need for any other silliness.

And why are such OV ideas silly? Because, unless local economic issues improve in Hungary, those four children per woman will just leave Hungary, like everyone else does, it seems who can, to find better paying jobs abroad in the EU..... So what was the point?

You are so cynical!  Can I vote for you?  Vote cynical!

I am wondering who will get the contract for the daycare centres?  OV's son-in-law maybe - after all he operates under bright lights, especially the 42M EURs worth of spotlights across the villages of HU.

My real concern is if the Fidesz base really believe these OV ideas.  If they do, it's becoming a country of illiterate uneducated and easily fooled people.  It seems to be just a sign of the times.

I accidentally met a retired guy (American) called Jim a week ago and he and his wife were gun toting Trump supporters.  His grasp on reality was somewhere orbiting Pluto.  He was unable even to distinguish between the sovereign island we were on and the Trump version of the USA where he came from.  After a bit of an "intellectual" discussion where he was out of his depth,  I think he realised he was sitting with the wrong people.  Wasn't speaking to us after that! 

Moving on, OV normally likes an enemy.  Muslims done with the fence, Soros has run the course, CEU is out, media under OV control, so what's next (apart from the workers and their extended slave days)?  What do you do if you don't have any enemy? Create one? EU doesn't seem likely. Is it women with less than 4 kids?

Mr. OV is a typical powerful Hungarian male, looking always for an enemy.
Not really sure what to say about that...
My own hubby is a typical grumpy HU male at times... When I told him about the 2.5 million right off to families of 4 children for a new van he said OV must have a relation who sells vans!!

Marilyn Tassy :

Mr. OV is a typical powerful Hungarian male, looking always for an enemy.
Not really sure what to say about that...
My own hubby is a typical grumpy HU male at times... When I told him about the 2.5 million right off to families of 4 children for a new van he said OV must have a relation who sells vans!!

Is he really a typical HU male? Apart from the stereotyping, I think he's something else.

Hmmm...so there's one who does street lights, another one on minivans and maybe one selling baby clothes and another one putting needles through all the condoms and replacing the pills with sugar.

OV will get his comeuppance soon enough. 

All politicians get megalomania when they run out of ideas, get increasingly desperate and absurd and loose their connection to reality.  Then the only way they can hold on is to start becoming dictatorial and if there are enough checks and balances they can eventually be removed.  Otherwise it's just another autocrat. Maybe could I cite Fidel, Putin, Maduro, Thatcher and possibly even Trump as examples or potential examples.

Only one of those was forced out - Thatcher.  Fidel became too sick and we don't know about the others yet.

I saw a funny post from a old male friend on FB this morning.
One of my few male friends who I actually have not spoken to or have written since school, just FB friends these days.
( A real friend, no funny business as we knew each other at parties hosted by my BFF and her older bro back in school, just a older college guy at the time who was funny and used to pile us all up in his VW bug at 2 am to go out for pancakes... long stories on those crazy HS parties at my BFF's parents home, when the cat's away the mice will play...He did have the best smoke back in the day as well...)
Anyways, the post was in cartoon form and pictured a little girl getting her hair braided by her mom in 1950's garb.
The caption  over the little girls head read," Mommy , did you want a boy or a girl?"
The mother's  caption said, " I wanted a back rub"!!

I sometimes do wonder what life would be if people still had those huge families that were common in the past.
One ( hate to stereotype but it true in this case) Religious  Irish /American family who lived on our st. had 13 children.
My mom used to collect our 3rd hand clothing when we outgrew them and give the lady of the house the clothing. They needed all the help they could get.
Mom said their living room had bunk-beds in it so limited the space was even in a 4 bedroom house.
My mom lost 2 babies from what I know, should of had a little sister about 10 months my jr.
Once the neighbor lady went into early labor so my mom ran over to help her out while the ambulance was on it's way.
people in the past seemed to go out of their way to help each other with day care, baby-sitting and even sometimes just feeding all the children playing at the a lunch and always making up glasses of water to hand out to every kid in the hood.
My mom was forever washing glasses...
My Hungarian MIL was born a twin, she arrived with a older brother who passed away when they were 2 months old. She was the youngest of 9 and the only girl .
Just try getting a date with her, 7 older bro's to check you out first.
My father was from a family of 9 he was the eldest.
These days a family of 4 is huge.
If people did start having really large families again, I'm sure society would change in many ways.
I know in my own generation if a girl wasn't married by her early 20's it was odd, something was probably wrong with her so they said.
My mom's sister was born in 1927 and was not married at age 28 and had a career of all things... It was something when she got married , finally as everyone would of said.
Seems every few generations or so people rewind and get back to simpler lives with children being a huge part of the family life and center of home life.
About half of my old friends have never had children and their lives seem alright to me. Guess one doesn't miss what they never had.

Marilyn Tassy :

....
The mother's  caption said, " I wanted a back rub"!!

Well, this is a bit strange.  I find myself musing on equality via back rubs, genetics, reproduction and subsidies.

I also want a back rub too but on OV's thinking I would not be entitled to the benefits of one. 

Back rubs notwithstanding, I demand no income tax as well on the grounds that it takes two to tango and 50% of that genetic material in them there kiddies is mine. 

That's unless my better half was engaging in parthenogenesis without telling me (where's the fun in that?). Then again the kids would be clones and they definitely aren't that.

Marilyn Tassy :

.....
These days a family of 4 is huge.
If people did start having really large families again, I'm sure society would change in many ways.
I know in my own generation if a girl wasn't married by her early 20's it was odd, something was probably wrong with her so they said.
.....
About half of my old friends have never had children and their lives seem alright to me. Guess one doesn't miss what they never had.

I've got 4 kids in two sets and actually those years of say Set 1 going from 0-21 years old, and then Set 2 from 0-21 makes about say, 40+ years of child care which means you pay out for years and years almost like a mortgage. 

I can only say it's VERY expensive even with no income tax.  Even now, if every one is together, that makes 6 and bring in say an uncle or aunt and some extra kids for a trip out and an OV van isn't enough.  You need a small BKV bus with standing room.  Seriously, I considered a bus with about 13 seats just to cover visitors.  As it is if we go anywhere, we have to take 2 cars even now.

I also know some couples without kids.  But actually are you sure their lives are alright?  Sometimes you cannot tell.  My parents had a neighbour who was childless (apparently) but it came out later her kid had died at some age like 7 or 8.  Her husband had died some years before and so while she looked like a spinster but really it was just her tragic circumstances.   I also know some people who have physical internal problems which doesn't help them reproduce.  I know yet another woman who was abused by alcoholic parents as a child and refused to bring more kids into the world because they could be targets for abuse.  She was (is?) an alcoholic herself and the very thing she despised.

Sometimes there's a back story to it!

Yes, there is always a back story,no one or anything is always as it appears .
My older sister never wanted children because she claimed she had already raised 3 siblings. Not exactly true but in her mind she was so put out helping our single divorced mom watch us while our mom was at work.
My 2 other childless sibs I really can't say why they never had children.
I can guess my half-sister was a spoiled brat that never has grown up yet but my brother I can't say why he had no children.
He could afford to have a large family if he wished to.
To hear my siblings talk you'd think our mom had them slaving away 24/7 on bread and water.

It is expensive to have a large family, our weekly grocery shopping as a child was an event.
We needed at least 2 shopping carts filled to the top just for basic items and weekly dinners.
Every day or two mom was picking up more milk or bread as well.
She always had more food in the house then we needed though, child of the depression that she was.
That generation made sure their cupboards were always full since many went hungry as children in the 1930's.

Buying a bus is a good idea, we used to be packed in a station wagon without using seat belts .Going down the highway at break neck speeds as children with metal doors and no seats belts. Many of us even rode in the back of pick-up trucks with no safety features other then grabbing on to the side of the truck on turns or better yet, just grabbing onto each other!
I know for a fact I have a guardian angel watching out for me.
We who grew up in the 50's and 60's all had parnets that were either boarder line alcoholics or full blown ones.
No one even thought twice about seeing the friends parents doing everything around the house with a beer can in one hand.

Marilyn Tassy :

Yes, there is always a back story,no one or anything is always as it appears .
.....
We who grew up in the 50's and 60's all had parnets that were either boarder line alcoholics or full blown ones.
No one even thought twice about seeing the friends parents doing everything around the house with a beer can in one hand.

Interesting you say that. My parents were never into alcohol and my Dad was never into - he seems to have an allergy to it and stopped drinking maybe 30 years ago. I've done the same several times myself - just given it up for like a year. I saw my folks drinking but genuinely thought nothing of it.  I think it's a bit of a weird attitude in my own country and in some others - like Scandanavia, USA etc with high prices and higher age controls.  Making it forbidden makes it desirable.

I mean in France, drinking wine at dinner is nothing special when kids are around, just normal.  Same sort of thing in Hungary really.  Mrs Fluffy likes her beer at dinner time, I prefer vino.

But in the UK, alcohol was always expensive and restricted in time and availability and there was always an attitude of trying to get it in before the pub or bar closed. 

Should really be encouraged to have an attitude of moderate and responsible drinking as the social norm.

Might go off topic here but  as a child I was often given beer when I was with my father.
He had a special tiny glass about a 4oz. size that was for me.
Mom told us she used to put a touch of whiskey in our baby bottles to make us sleep all night long.
If anyone did that these days their kids would be taken away and put in foster care.
The world is different now.
My old friend since I was 11 used to have me over all the time for dinner with her family and I was taken places like Disneyland with her family growing up.
They were pretty much the "perfect" family, her mom always was dressed to the 9n's her hair perfect with makeup on in the early morning hours, Stay at home of of just 2 children. Her father was a boy scout leader in his spare time from being a LA county firefighter.
Homemade cookies all the time and the house never ever had anything out of place.
Peaceful and perfect.
OK so 2houses over at mine, total mayhem all the time.
Always some sort of project going on.
House painting, hanging of wall paper, window washing day, my step-dad changing the clutch or engine of one of his cars in the front yard etc.
We always had company coming over too.
My father and his new American/Hungarian wife would often be house quests for the weekends and help with the house repairs.
Everyone was enjoying their beer, wine or whiskey.
Not boring for sure but not exactly peaceful either.
People coming and going, food being cooked on the stove all the time and the washing machine on every hour. Our house was what one would refer to as Lived in.
I used to wish I lived at my friends peaceful if boring house instead of always having to bump into someone or wait in line to use the WC.
Her parents never drank or swore or did anything embarrassing in public.
Oh well, we at least had an exciting time .
My mother didn't start to drink until she was in her mid 40's. She was only a very light social drinker before then.
My father on the other hand, well let's just say in that dept. he was a real Slav, beer was his weapon of choice.
My other friend the one with brain tumors came from a family of 5. She was the only girl and the oldest.
Her Polish granny lived with them, I used to do her grannies hair when I was learning to be a stylist.
Her family on the outside seemed to have no money extra to spend.
She was a bit spoiled however as the only girl, had her own room where her bros had to share rooms, she had 2 horses that were in boarding and her brothers had all sorts of nice bikes and off roads motorbikes growing up.
Their house had second hand furniture and she had only a few sets of clothing but her parents didn't drink and they spent all their extra money on their kids, made sure they had extra's like horses and nice toys for the boys.
Her mom stayed home full time was was always running herself ragged with taking her kids here and there, never looked fancy or polished like my other friends mother did at all times but she was there for her kids at every turn. Nice lady, I put her through it twice while in her care, first I almost kill myself by getting tossed off their horse then I dislocate my knee while under her care.
She drove a beat up old secnd hand wagon but always was a happy and smiling, never mad about anything . Loved going to their home as well.
Her Polish granny reminded me of my grandparents , I never ever could understand half of what she was saying but she also was always happy even without the booze.
Her father is 94 now and still lives alone in his own house.
Her house was mayhem too but without the drinking it was really more productive.

BTW,  the baby factory thing reached Brussels: Timmermans

Marilyn Tassy :

Might go off topic here but  as a child I was often given beer when I was with my father.
He had a special tiny glass about a 4oz. size that was for me.
Mom told us she used to put a touch of whiskey in our baby bottles to make us sleep all night long.
If anyone did that these days their kids would be taken away and put in foster care.
.....
Her house was mayhem too but without the drinking it was really more productive.

That touch of whiskey could cause brain damage.  I think it was sherry  with me - parents never had hard liquor at home.  And look at me now...hanging in this forum spouting nonsense...who knows what the cause of that is....

Alcohol excess is really self-medication.   It's a symptom rather than the cause. A bit like addictions like drugs or even gambling.  I never gamble or do drugs because I think I could be easily addicted to that kind of stimulus on my reward centres.  I've even thought of stopping drinking completely.

Reason is that getting rid of alcohol sure does bring up production and one can lose weight too.  So many unnecessary calories in booze. 

During the summer one wants to jump out of bed in the morning when it's sunny, warm and the days long.  It's that Spring time for beavering away - it was 15 C today outside and we were all outside in the garden in our T-shirts!  Oops that should be in the Today's Weather topic.....

Yes, I may have some brain damage after all...
They say that clamping off the umbilical cord right after birth before the blood and oxygen from the mother can transfer over to the baby when they start to breathe on their own actually reduces a persons I.Q. by at least 10 points.
Might be a good idea to have a home birth and not let them shock the infant the second they arrive.
My mom was super sharp for a person who only went to the 8th grade, she was a home birth.
That's a whole other subject, I was not happy at all the way they delivered  my son on Maui.
Was so yucky that I said no way, not again, never again would I do that, such jerks they were....
Plastering a face mask over me when I told them no,actually they tied down my legs and arms during birth, what a bunch of loones!
That alone can cause stress to the infant having their mother freaking out for no good reason.
It was all about getting the new mom's in and out ASAP and not a care for the mother or the infant.
It is super important to do ones homework before having a baby, learned the hard way myself.
I have heard from my husband who reads allot about HU issues that many doctors stress out the new mom's in delivery by asking for money.
Talk about scaring the c*ap out of a person last min.
I think if that is true that should be discussed by the gov. before giving out keys to vans and homes.
I.Q. I wonder if after a certain number if it really matters or not though in the long run.
If one is too smart they can't fit into society very well and if they are too slow they bring everyone around them down.
My deceased sister had an I.Q. of over 145 but was always moving on to the next person place or thing, nothing satisfied her for long.
Makes for an unhappy person in a average world.

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