Brexit and its implications for British, HU and any other citizens

As for Juncker and his ploy of trying to cause trouble by announcing a hard Irish border, what a B@$t*d !
He knows that question is likely to cause violent protests, maybe even terrorist attacks, but he's willing to risk violence, injury, and maybe even killings in the hope of getting his way.
He's unfit to be a representative of anything, but he does show what the EU is really about.

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Fred wrote:

That argument is invalid as the vote was for or against the common market, not what it would morph into some years later.
There was never a vote to take the UK into the EU.

Well, you have something of a point except:

* EEC and mostly the EU was the same until they started to establish superstate features

* We didn't see this level of opposition to the EU during the various treaties expanding it - everyone rolled over

* The treaties were agreed by the government of the day consisting of elected politicians

* Treaties were ratified by Parliament (and therefore by the "people" - ok, I know a stretch)

Maybe we're back to the same questions - are you in favour of the "EU" (or EEC) as trading block Fred?

The common market was sold as a common market
The common market wasn't sold as a superstate
Nobody cared about expansion but there were plenty of voices against the EU's growing power
Treaties were agreed by politicians even though they were aware many people objected
Too big a stretch given the hindsight we now have.

I love free trade, but also democracy. The EU does not engage in free trade except within the EU, the rest is protectionist.

OK but if it was back to the basics of the EEC as a trade arrangement, would that be OK?

Trade is fine, no, welcome, but the EU is out to punish the UK so it won't happen.
That and EU trade agreements will come with protectionist clauses designed to make non EU trade hard work.

Fred wrote:

Trade is fine, no, welcome, but the EU is out to punish the UK so it won't happen.
That and EU trade agreements will come with protectionist clauses designed to make non EU trade hard work.

I agree that it's protectionist and causes distortions and high prices -  but every other trade block is too. 

Look at Donald Trump's behaviour with NAFTA and his attitude to Mexico and Canada.

So at what point did it tip from trade to superstate?

I'm asking to see what EEC version would be OK and at what date?

None as they've shown themselves to be against the UK's interests and democracy.
The UK should avoid them in every field except trade, and then only as long as there are no protectionist clauses.

Fred wrote:

None as they've shown themselves to be against the UK's interests and democracy.
The UK should avoid them in every field except trade, and then only as long as there are no protectionist clauses.

Hmmm....no chance of that - it's instinct in all trade blocks to retain protectionist measures.

But I mostly agree with you but I think there's a way of compromising. 

For the EU, the trading block is sacrosanct and everything one can complain about comes from that single market and roots in socialist ideology. 

But it's not black and while - there are good things in  the single market which are of benefit to the citizenry.   They could liberalise some parts of international trade but on a reciprocal basis.

Unfortunately it's all scope creep and the current Brexit players on both sides are extremists. 

I wish the EU had taken the opportunity post-Brexit to press the reset button on the entire institution.

Unfortunately it's all scope creep and the current Brexit players on both sides are extremist

Nail head sledgehammer

wish the EU had taken the opportunity post-Brexit to press the reset button on the entire institution.

No hope. Too many people are on the make and they aren't going to give that up for silly things like making it work.

Fred wrote:

wish the EU had taken the opportunity post-Brexit to press the reset button on the entire institution.

No hope. Too many people are on the make and they aren't going to give that up for silly things like making it work.

For sure there's a gravy train but like communism or many religions, a lot of people actually believe in it after years of brainwashing.  As soon as they started to say Euro and European Army, the alarm bells should have been ringing. 

In the EU case,  especially that Verhofstadt fella.  He's a believer, not just a disciple but a proselytiser.   And if you pitch in the opposition extremist Ann Widdicombe (who seems to have been one of Adolf's hand maidens in a previous life), there's probably no hope of reform.  I actually wondered if it was dementia - people get angry when they have dementia.  On the other side, Verhofstadt has an arrogance (delusion?) about him that nothing could be possibly wrong in EU-town.

I am still hoping that someone blinks on agreeing a reform agenda. If they are serious about it, it's always better to be standing inside the tent p**sing out rather than in.    UK could seriously damage the functioning of the EU if it chose to be a blatant Brexit orientated "fifth columnist" grouping.  They might bring it to the table with reform.

Anyways, BoJo will be in the Parliament today so that'll be interesting to hear how he tries to dodge the resigning bullet.  He'll still be PM for sometime as he's never going to resign until he's had his Churchillian fill. 

Pundits are saying they'll get rid of the Attorney General - Geoffrey Cox.  Useful idiot scapegoat.

Useful idiots are really handy, and easy to get rid if once you promise them a nice job with no actual work but sacks of cash. It's been EU jobs for the last few years but I suppose the house of Lords or a few directorships will have to do.
Reform is unlikely, but the breakup of the EU is probable within 10 to 20 years.

Don't mention communism, it's like the Hitler stuff but makes me puke all the quicker. Since I'm enjoying a silly expensive coffee in Bali airport at the moment, you'll make me waste money - a serious crime in Yorkshire.

Fred wrote:

Don't mention communism, it's like the Hitler stuff but makes me puke all the quicker. Since I'm enjoying a silly expensive coffee in Bali airport at the moment, you'll make me waste money - a serious crime in Yorkshire.

Well over here in Hungary, they all lived through it although the last generation has no knowledge and therefore is easily persuaded to support fascism. 

I hope the expensive coffee at the airport bally well tastes better than local cat brew thereabouts rumoured to come out of a civet's derriere.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/worl … hnson.htmlhttps://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/worl … rexit.html

Be right back - I have to make more popcorn to watch the show. 

Off topic -- but I may run out of popcorn  :

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/p … trump.html

klsallee wrote:

Off topic -- but I may run out of popcorn  :

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/p … trump.html

I'm not that keen on popcorn now I've bloated out on Brexit.

I'm thinking a cheese nacho hat for Don Donnie-e-eye-adio(s).

klsallee wrote:

Off topic -- but I may run out of popcorn  :

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/p … trump.html

The pathetic state of US politics was summed up by some democrat or another that said they were thinking of selecting a presidential candidate that didn't have any baggage.

I despair at the stupidity over there.

Fred wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Off topic -- but I may run out of popcorn  :

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/p … trump.html

The pathetic state of US politics was summed up by some democrat or another that said they were thinking of selecting a presidential candidate that didn't have any baggage.

I despair at the stupidity over there.

Archangel Gabriel?

fluffy2560 wrote:

I hope the expensive coffee at the airport bally well tastes better than local cat brew thereabouts rumoured to come out of a civet's derriere.

No rumour, it does. It get cleaned up from the poop in exactly the same way politicians don't.

klsallee wrote:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/world/europe/uk-constitution-supreme-court-boris-johnson.html

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/worl … rexit.html

Be right back - I have to make more popcorn to watch the show. 

Attorney General Geoffrey Cox is living in a parallel universe. How he can spin it the way he did during his statement to Parliament is beyond rational comprehension!  Shades of the 1930s Germany to me!

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

I hope the expensive coffee at the airport bally well tastes better than local cat brew thereabouts rumoured to come out of a civet's derriere.

No rumour, it does. It get cleaned up from the poop in exactly the same way politicians don't.

I feel sorry for the civets.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Fred wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Off topic -- but I may run out of popcorn  :

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/p … trump.html

The pathetic state of US politics was summed up by some democrat or another that said they were thinking of selecting a presidential candidate that didn't have any baggage.

I despair at the stupidity over there.

Archangel Gabriel?

And the Lord said to Gabriel: "'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have." —

He's got no chance of the democrat nomination with the "I was only following orders" excuse for that lot, but he'd have no trouble getting the republican job if Trump calls it a day.

Cox is about to go - hardly needs ant reading between the lines to see he was the fall guy.

Fred wrote:

Cox is about to go - hardly needs ant reading between the lines to see he was the fall guy.

He didn't look like he was going when he was speaking in the Commons earlier on.  Maybe he'll be forced to resign and then, after 6 months in the wilderness, he'll be brought back to head up some quango on £250K a year plus expenses.  In 5 years he'll be in the Lords getting his £300 a day for signing in. 

Strangely I had a flash in my head then of Geoffrey from Rainbow whose best mates were Zippy and Bungle.  Take your pick on who is who - my guess Zippy = Gove and Bungle = Boris.

Fred wrote:

....And the Lord said to Gabriel: "'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have." —

I already can see it's doomed - destroy the children of fornication - that's a vote loser right there.  We should be grateful to fornicators - population and fertility is dropping in Western countries.  And more children are born out of wedlock than in it - so bring the bastards on.

Copied from a friend

I will try here to give you an update from the town hall meeting on Tuesday evening in Budapest.  I think we probably know most of it already.
Deal: Acquired rights largely unaffected.
No Deal: Preferential settlement scheme.  This means that according to the legislation enacted in March, providing you have the address card, registration card and have been here for at least 3 years (normally 5), you will be able to apply immediately for a permanent residence card. As long as you are already registered before Brexit date, you can apply up to three years from that date.  If you register after Brexit date, you will be treated just the same as any 3rd country national.
Driving licence: If you are planning to stay here, you should apply for an exchange of your UK licence for a Hungarian one. This is a requirement anyway if you have been driving here for more than one year.
Healthcare: Must be registered to benefit.
Deal: Rights remain the same as long as you remain resident.
No deal: Notes here were sketchy, but I wrote down 'unilateral, continue to access'
EHIC: Okay until leave date
No deal: Possibly not valid - please see the handout we received and that is attached to this post.
Travel in Budapest: Free travel for over 65's with permanent residence card on BKK.
Travel in Europe: With passport AND permanent residency card. This will help you at the Hungarian border control in particular.
In addition, I was able to speak with the Ambassador and Mr Takács after the meeting and express my concerns about the term reciprocity that is being used quite frequently. I am sure many of us are aware of the stories about long-term residents in the UK being given pre-settled status only. I was encouraged that both he and Mr Takács indicated that they have had not had received any serious complaints from Hungarians in UK about the scheme there, so we really should have no need to worry.

SimCityAT wrote:

Copied from a friend

I will try here to give you an update from the town hall meeting on Tuesday evening in Budapest.  I think we probably know most of it already.
....

Great summary.

But I'm slightly annoyed. I've been to a couple of these meetings in Budapest but I wasn't informed there was another meeting on Tuesday. we would have gone along to get the latest.  They know who I am from the e-mail registration. That's  pretty rubbish marketing. Well done British Embassy. 

I'm listening to LBC and they are still pumping out adverts for the 31st October Brexit date. As far as I can visualise in the Brexit-fog,  they (HMG) have to go to Brussels asap to ask for an extension until January 31st 2020. 

It's up to the EU to agree apparently but as far as a veto from there it's toothless as the UK can cancel Clause 50.  I cannot see that being enough. Practically they've got to be thinking 2 years at least if only to allow a majority to appear in Parliament and in between there should be an election to give a mandate for progress.   I am pretty sure that Brexit will be cancelled indefinitely now. 

I am also wondering if they will do the election and the referendum at the same time - both votes taken together.  Now that'd be interesting.

fluffy2560 wrote:

.  We should be grateful to fornicators - population and fertility is dropping in Western countries.  And more children are born out of wedlock than in it - so bring the bastards on.

Perhaps I should return to the UK for a while in order to assist with the fornication. It's a tough job but someone has to do it.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Off topic -- but I may run out of popcorn  :

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/p … trump.html

I'm not that keen on popcorn now I've bloated out on Brexit.

I'm thinking a cheese nacho hat for Don Donnie-e-eye-adio(s).

If you go for cheese nachos, definitely also consider getting a good Margarita. Maybe two... After the political theater this week, I may need three. 

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Off topic -- but I may run out of popcorn  :

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/p … trump.html

I'm not that keen on popcorn now I've bloated out on Brexit.

I'm thinking a cheese nacho hat for Don Donnie-e-eye-adio(s).

If you go for cheese nachos, definitely also consider getting a good Margarita. Maybe two... After the political theater this week, I may need three. 

It's been remarkable. I'm vaguely keeping on topic.

After the revelations today events have overtaken my comments. People will be settling in with duvets, comfy slippers and perhaps bottle of vodka.  I'm thinking bulk order nachos and definitely umbrella and sparklers for the cocktails.

Commentators are likening the US's goings-on it to Watergate.   They are comparing Brexit Boris's behaviour and tactics to Demented Donny's MO.  One pundit said Republicans were getting nervous so his support may crumble. 

Maybe the moods both sides of the pond are going to swing the other way now and actually BoJo is quite some way behind the Trumpian curve - the divide and conquer alternative truth rhetoric may not work in the face of external foreign interference solicited by POTUS.

May we live in Interesting times but yearn for peaceful ones.

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

.  We should be grateful to fornicators - population and fertility is dropping in Western countries.  And more children are born out of wedlock than in it - so bring the bastards on.

Perhaps I should return to the UK for a while in order to assist with the fornication. It's a tough job but someone has to do it.

Off topic- but you can always fornicate locally and save the air fare.  Maybe you can depending on personal circumstances....   one would hope the illegal sex legislation in Indonesia will get a hard time - so to speak. 

Fornicate has connotations. Presumably it means sex with someone who is not one's legally married partner.  What is it then with say, the person one is legally married to? Just reproduction?  I dunno - just move to Californicate and then no-one will care.

fluffy2560 wrote:

May we live in Interesting times but yearn for peaceful ones.

Agree.

Meanwhile, going again off topic, Bibi, despite loosing the popular vote, is again asked to form a government:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/worl … nyahu.html

Interesting times? I would rather start to call them delusional times. 

I can but ask, who really is in "charge"?

klsallee wrote:

....

Interesting times? I would rather start to call them delusional times. 

I can but ask, who really is in "charge"?

Good question.  I suppose in Israel it really is a Jewish conspiracy.

Years ago on a corporate course, someone came up with the analogy of a corporate bus.  Everyone has a steering wheel and can provide inputs into the direction the bus is going with a level of proportionality according to your seniority.   All the inputs are averaged and that's the direction you're going in - so it's not one person but a series of biases and average.  Not really rocket science. 

I guess that means that even Bibi is going to have to compromise.   Be the same for BoJo and Brexit in the end.   Not for the Donald though - compromise is not in his vocabulary.

klsallee wrote:

Interesting times? I would rather start to call them delusional times

Bingo

fluffy2560 wrote:

Years ago on a corporate course, someone came up with the analogy of a corporate bus.  Everyone has a steering wheel and can provide inputs into the direction the bus is going with a level of proportionality according to your seniority.   All the inputs are averaged and that's the direction you're going in - so it's not one person but a series of biases and average.  Not really rocket science.  .

The total lack of the above being why not even slightly communist China has turned into the most successful capitalist nation in today's somewhat twisted world.

Fred wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Years ago on a corporate course, someone came up with the analogy of a corporate bus.  Everyone has a steering wheel and can provide inputs into the direction the bus is going with a level of proportionality according to your seniority.   All the inputs are averaged and that's the direction you're going in - so it's not one person but a series of biases and averages.  Not really rocket science.  .

The total lack of the above being why not even slightly communist China has turned into the most successful capitalist nation in today's somewhat twisted world.

Hmm.....is it communist or fascist bus then?  Cigarette paper thin difference as the results are the same. 

Communist Capitalist Corrupt China - bit oxymoron'ish.  I don't think China can continue in its present form.  It'll only take a long deep and significant recession.  Dangerous times as it could start a war in the South "China" sea (emotive name) to rally the population.  Wars always work as distractions for a short period.   

Meanwhile...in Brexitland....apparently angry protesters in the UK are saying that Parliamentarians are traitors.  Maybe even some rioting will occur. Anyone would think the roundheads and cavaliers are back in fashion. Bring on Oliver Cromwell.

Boris isn't helping as he's laying the ground to say that the judges and parliament are usurping his ability to get the job done.  That's a very Polish (unfortunately named PiS party) or Hungarian (Orban) or even  Italian (Salvini).

But BoJo's offering no real alternatives to the impasse other than right wing BS.  It's blatantly his strategy for an election in lieu of a referendum.  Corbyn isn't going to support that possibility as he knows he'll lose.  So the impasse will continue after yet another extension.   

If anyone in Parliament brings up that Teresa May deal yet again, then  I will join in the protests. It's a really sh*t deal.  It's better if they shelve it for 2-3 years so they can get their ducks in order.

But the real and most interesting show at the moment is the USA - be an interesting bit of turmoil if DT gets impeached.  A lot of people will be very happy but if the system is that Mike "short of a dollar" Pence gets in, he's even more nuts than DT.  What a pair of w*nkers.

Right wing or left wing, it's about the same and produces the same smell.
No bugger is getting real about this so no bugger is sorting out what is needed.

Politicians are generally too stupid to be allowed to do anything without a psychiatric nurse to make sure they aren't a danger to public safety.

Fred wrote:

Right wing or left wing, it's about the same and produces the same smell.
No bugger is getting real about this so no bugger is sorting out what is needed.

Politicians are generally too stupid to be allowed to do anything without a psychiatric nurse to make sure they aren't a danger to public safety.

Quite interesting that people in Parliament are not actually qualified for that job.  There's no exam in being a politician.  It's on the job training.  Some of them are clearly talented at PR.  Maybe it's like show business - some of them can sing and dance and some cannot.

What do you mean by "getting real"?  What do you want them to do?  How'd you sort it then Fredolino?

Brexit should happen because the British people asked for it and, assuming democracy is your bag, that means MPs have to go for it.
If you accept that, you then have to work together in order to get the best deal you can.
The UK's European enemies, sorry, friends are hell bent on screwing over Brexit but those politicians that have sold out their country for eurobribes are making a good deal impossible

Fred wrote:

Brexit should happen because the British people asked for it and, assuming democracy is your bag, that means MPs have to go for it.
If you accept that, you then have to work together in order to get the best deal you can.
The UK's European enemies, sorry, friends are hell bent on screwing over Brexit but those politicians that have sold out their country for eurobribes are making a good deal impossible

What do you reckon then?  New "confirmation" referendum, different result?