Absolutely Anything Else

klsallee wrote:

....

So, Newsom's reply was a good one.

Yes, it was.  It's hardly DT's style to be able to flip it back with any dignified response. It's obviously a disinformation campaign.  I thought it was very disingenuous to blame the Governor and those working to bring it under control.

Oh, and of course, by implication blame the victims too.

Odd sort of yesterday at the doctors office.
I've been going in about 3 times per week for a few weeks to take care of a wound that wouldn't heal without swelling up.
Hope to be free of office visits soon...
Anyways what I've experienced here in Hungary a few times, perhaps about a 1/3rd of all my doctors visits over the years is that they have zero privacy when it comes to doctor- patient consultations.
I know they have their ways of doing things to save time but sometimes it is just "uncomfortable" Like yesterday we waited our time then the nurse called in 4 women at one time and I stood having to watch as the doctor examined a women's head, another was being helped by the nurse . Then my turn while everyone was still in the room, one women was watching my bandage change, then the oldest lady pulled down her pants and got on the exam table... I was lucky to be able to walk out before he started to work on her issues.
It's a bit creepy as in the US they never ever do anything like this, it's really not anyone's business to know about another person's health issues unless they care to sahre.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

the nurse called in 4 women at one time

That is really, really weird.
I understand the "legacy" of communism where there was no such thing as real privacy, but I would have made a formal complaint myself. Nothing will change unless one complains. Even my local rather small hospital does not do that. Each patient is dealt with independently. So, again, that is really weird.

klsallee wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

the nurse called in 4 women at one time

That is really, really weird.
I understand the "legacy" of communism where there was no such thing as real privacy, but I would have made a formal complaint myself. Nothing will change unless one complains. Even my local rather small hospital does not do that. Each patient is dealt with independently. So, again, that is really weird.

Not just here.

I was in a hospital in Bangkok once and I passed a room where all the patients were together.   They were all lying on parallel operating tables and there was a team of of 2 people in scrubs working on each one. Don't know what it meant for infection control. Each bed wasn't more than 1m away from each other. I stood there for a second and when they (the staff) saw me looking they pressed a foot switch and the door closed.

Another time I was in a clinic in Budapest and the doctor sat behind a big table shouting at the nurses who ran around doing everything he said.  He didn't move from his position at all during the entire time I was there.  Just barked orders.   Definitely old school.

OK, I am spoiled, my family doc as a child into my young adulthood was old school but in the best way possible.
He was a strict 7th Day Adventist and had his entire family , sister, SIL brother other SIL all working as his staff. He bought an old house and converted it into the first mini-hospital in Simi Valley, he was also the first doctor in that old farming town.
He delivered babies and did major operations inside his office back int he 40's on up until her retired in his very late 80's in the early 1990's.
He kept his prices affordable and if he had to raise the price of an office visit he would send out letters to all his patients explaining why/ He even did tons of work without charging extra for extra exams and such. He put my knee back into place without me even knowing he had touched me at all, he knew what he was doing. Delviered my 2 younger siblings and would go to Africa every other year or so to volunteer his time. He opened the very first large modern hospital in our town and didn't name it after himself. Drove your basic all American car and never had an attitude about being better then anyone around him.
He would make corny innocent sort of nerdy jokes sometimes to help people relax, nothing offensive at all, he always made sure one of his female staff was in the room whenever he was  alone with a female patient or small child.
Oh well, in the past only those with the brains and know how could pass the medical exams, now it seems they must have Yes or No answers on some of these exams because I've gone to some doctors that made me run to the internet for a real answer.
Off soon for another bandage change, hope there will be nothinbg odd to report.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

....
He was a strict 7th Day Adventist and had his entire family , sister, SIL brother other SIL all working as his staff. ....
Oh well, in the past only those with the brains and know how could pass the medical exams, now it seems they must have Yes or No answers on some of these exams because I've gone to some doctors that made me run to the internet for a real answer.
Off soon for another bandage change, hope there will be nothing odd to report.

I had to look up the 7th Day Adventists.  For some reason I thought they were part of the Mormons but apparently not. I find it odd that any medical person has religious views as essentially they are scientists.  I'm with Stephen Fry on this (see this infamous interview on Irish RTE TV with the late Gay Byrne).

I hope the bandage change went well. 

BTW1, I was at a developing country hospital recently but they were very good.  Better than Hungary in some ways!  But my condition was quite obvious (to me) and I was able to diagnose it myself (they confirmed) but needed a prescription to get the right meds.  Cost me all of $20 including the meds themselves!

BTW2, My  colleague sent me this which I found funny: Trump vs Obama.

That was funny, knock-knock, who's there?

All better yesterday at the office. Just had to watch a bloody bandage change on a women's arm...
Back again on Monday, hope for the last time!
Still no idea why they put me under for surgery 2 years ago and told me I needed a shoulder replacement.. not true.
No wonder I can't trust those pill pushing pimps in white coats...I think most are probably using Web MD for their info and have no clue what they are doing!

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

the nurse called in 4 women at one time

That is really, really weird.
I understand the "legacy" of communism where there was no such thing as real privacy, but I would have made a formal complaint myself. Nothing will change unless one complains. Even my local rather small hospital does not do that. Each patient is dealt with independently. So, again, that is really weird.

Not just here.

I was in a hospital in Bangkok once and I passed a room where all the patients were together.   They were all lying on parallel operating tables and there was a team of of 2 people in scrubs working on each one. Don't know what it meant for infection control. Each bed wasn't more than 1m away from each other. I stood there for a second and when they (the staff) saw me looking they pressed a foot switch and the door closed.

But this is the "EU", or is suppose to be. Not SE Asia....

fluffy2560 wrote:

Another time I was in a clinic in Budapest and the doctor sat behind a big table shouting at the nurses who ran around doing everything he said.  He didn't move from his position at all during the entire time I was there.  Just barked orders.   Definitely old school.

My wife had a similar experience in Hungary. The doctor "diagnosed" her without even examining her. He sat behind his desk stamping paperwork the entire time. I even heard his stamping in the waiting room. I don't call that "old school". Even a 19th century doctor would examine a patient. I simply call such behavior lazy incompetence.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Hungarians are very reactionary and get wound up easily.  They lose all rational behaviour and jump to the extremes.

Hm.... In the USA we don't call them "Hungarians", we call them "Republicans" or "Children of Helicopter Parents".... 

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

Hungarians are very reactionary and get wound up easily.  They lose all rational behaviour and jump to the extremes.

Hm.... In the USA we don't call them "Hungarians", we call them "Republicans" or "Children of Helicopter Parents".... 

Actually I think it's Hungarian men who get into these meltdowns.  Women seem to start to cry.  It's hard to know if it's frustration or anger at that point.  Maybe I've just got poor human radar.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

That was funny, knock-knock, who's there?

...

This one was also quite funny as well - sent by my daughter - DT's geographically challenged. 

That guy is going to go down in history as one of the most blatantly stupid and ill-informed people ever to walk on earth.

klsallee wrote:

.....

But this is the "EU", or is suppose to be. Not SE Asia....

....

It's a free-for-all semi-regionless sanctuary here in "Absolutely Anything Else" which speaks to diversity and random postings which should of course include a mention of HU, however tenuous. 

Talking of which, and I mention it, because the way HU is going, HU won't be in the EU if it persists in its behaviour going forward. 

According to Mrs Fluffy people are sharing the Kurdish flag on FB in response to the recent Erdogan visit.   There's a video of people booing Erdogan (I didn't detect much booing in the video - was more analytical).   I found it interesting that HU wants the commissioner for enlargement portfolio - hard to see how that could possibly work. OV's a**-kissing of Erdogan is surprising but prime example of double standards given the silly "Orbán vagy turbán" rhetoric.  I didn't see Mrs Erdogan in any videos of his visit (see below for DT visit) but I wasn't looking that hard.


There was also a mention somewhere of the HU government moving the capital from Budapest (not Fidesz) to Debrecen (Fidesz).   I haven't been able to find a link on that one but maybe someone else will oblige.

Peter from Hungary wrote:

OMG... In which country you live in??

I, personally, live in Hungary. If you bothered to click on my Avatar image (or anyone else's here), you would know that. Thus making your question redundant.

Peter from Hungary wrote:

Please enter anything about politics in Hungary in google and you will find more than 10 different sites in raw promoted on the very first positions that manipulate people against the government and you really say that it is controlled by the Fidesz??

Well... You call it "manipulation". Others may call it "facts". 

Who, exactly, is Drinking the Kool-Aid? 

Peter from Hungary wrote:

I don't have anything else to say... I don't want to change your glasses that you see the world through. I just want to stand up for people that you call "mindless", "undereducated" and all other negative stamps just because they don't follow your leaders' words. That's it.

I want to point out that nobody, at the topic I copied your comment from, used the term "undereducated" but you. That is entirely your word. Is adding yet another ridiculous accusations as an exit shot typical of a Fidesz supporter? 

Peter from Hungary wrote:

Please enter anything about politics in Hungary in google and you will find more than 10 different sites in raw promoted on the very first positions that manipulate people against the government and you really say that it is controlled by the Fidesz??
I don't have anything else to say... I don't want to change your glasses that you see the world through. I just want to stand up for people that you call "mindless", "undereducated" and all other negative stamps just because they don't follow your leaders' words. That's it.

What leader?  Anyone driving this particular ship?  Nah, it's pretty clear you're here to troll.    I don't know why you bother.   If you could come with some facts, it'd give you more legitimacy if you could debate sensibly and with authority (on a subject) and intelligence.  I think anyone would be willing to listen and maybe even prepared to compromise.

There aren't many hereabouts who will stick up for OV and Fidesz - no-one who is a long term resident anyway. Or comes from older democracies or countries with more checks and balances and a different history.

It goes back to that "Why can't we all just get along" theme.  We don't want trouble but one has to look back at human beings' behaviour.   

Some people always want to beat up some other group for no reason other than them being different in some way and as a means of self-promotion for their cause - however imagined any threat might be. 

Indeed we've just had the anniversary of Kristallnacht.  Lessons learnt.

And of course, the famous and often quoted and taught Animal Farm -  "some are more equal than others".

Clearly not everyone is equal hereabouts.  It offends me and my sense of right and wrong.  'nuff said.  Why not put that in your troll pipe and smoke it for a bit Peter Few-Posts?

Transferred....from other topic...

Rawlee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

What's a professional government?

I think a professional government is when a finance minister is someone who studied finance, an education minister is a teacher or professor, a health minister is a nurse/doctor, etc. And the ministries are run by people how studied those fields. I mean, the worst minister of war we had thought war should not exists, and actually was againt buying weapons. WTF???

And how it would work is the separate ministries would be subordinates to each other. Like, if the ministry of economics wants to build a power plant, the ministry of justice would only help with the paperwork, and not bark into the generator specifications, while is the ministry of justice wants a bunch of new cars, the transportation ministry would only order the cars, not decide which car they can get.

Currently governments are like effing talent shows, except everybody only promises a performance, but does not actually do it. You mostly have to imagine it. And are run by marketing specialists, who have no business running a country.

Like a dumb kickstarter campaign. Sometimes, you get something that resembles the promised product, but its mostly a hustle. And now all parties are hustlers.

I liked your answer for different reasons perhaps to the drivers that led you to create it.   You're referring to a government of technocrats.

Efficient government is an oxymoron.  But people are after all human and therefore likely to be competitive so they will always jockey or hustle for position. But rest assured, like "managers", all politicians will rise to their own level of incompetence.   I can tell you one thing - it's easy to be critical from the sidelines. It's really hard to actually be in the driving seat.  Sometimes professional knowledge gets in the way of objective decision making. 

Based upon what you said, and just for fun, here's a sample ethics dilemma for you:

a) Grandma needs specialist life saving brain surgery but is generally in good health otherwise, it costs $1M.  She's 80 years old.  Just so happens that Grandma is a Nobel prize winning scientist who continues to do important work in the energy sector.

b) Child needs a special genetically tailored medicine only available from another country.  It costs $1M for 10 years of treatment but after 10 years, there's a 70% chance the child will be cured but otherwise will die for sure.   The child is gifted at school.

You're in the hot seat. 

Your underlings at the Finance Ministry** says the Treasury is empty except for just $1M allocated for special medical projects.  No-one else anywhere, by gift or donation is prepared to come up with the cash. 

It's all down to you.

In the system you proposed, who would you try to save by allocating the money? 

** BTW, arguably the Finance Ministry is more important than any other Ministry as it controls the flow and availability of money to government.

Rawlee wrote:

I think a professional government is when a finance minister is someone who studied finance

I agree. In theory....

Rawlee wrote:

And how it would work is the separate ministries would be subordinates to each other. Like, if the ministry of economics wants to build a power plant, the ministry of justice would only help with the paperwork, and not bark into the generator specifications, while is the ministry of justice wants a bunch of new cars, the transportation ministry would only order the cars, not decide which car they can get.

And, so in theory, if the ministry of justice wants the Bugatti La Voiture Noire, the Rolls-Royce Sweptail, and some Lamborghini Veneno cars, with the Mercedes-Benz Maybach Exelero thrown in for the tea ladies to use, the transportation ministry should just buy them.... no say at all by the transportation ministry which cars they can get? 

If so, how can I become a "tea lady" at the ministry of justice? 

fluffy2560 wrote:

You're in the hot seat.

Easy decision.

Grandma, since she got a Nobel Prize she is clearly working in some liberal, so called "green" energy sector, which will destroy the all important extractive petrochemical industry. Not only that... but being a scientist It is unlikely the state's so generous gift will convince her to appropriately appreciate the dear leader of the state. 

Meanwhile the child, if survives can be constantly reminded of how the state and its dear leader saved his life, and can be --- moved by such selfless state kindness --- to use his talents for the benefit of the state. Probably in the petrochemical industry.... 

cough.... cough... cough...

In other words, "hot seats" don't exist for those who refuse to sit or take up the space of a real moral/ethical location. Only the inherently ethical have ethical dilemmas... 

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

You're in the hot seat.

Easy decision.

Grandma, since she got a Nobel Prize she is clearly working in some liberal, so called "green" energy sector, which will destroy the all important extractive petrochemical industry. Not only that... but being a scientist It is unlikely the state's so generous gift will convince her to appropriately appreciate the dear leader of the state. 

Meanwhile the child, if survives can be constantly reminded of how the state and its dear leader saved his life, and can be --- moved by such selfless state kindness --- to use his talents for the benefit of the state. Probably in the petrochemical industry.... 

cough.... cough... cough...

In other words, "hot seats" don't exist for those who refuse to sit or take up the space of a real moral/ethical location. Only the inherently ethical have ethical dilemmas... 

Nice answer.   One of many possible.   They still have hot seats even  in the most socialist or illiberal systems as its impossible not to delegate.  Risks are higher of course.

The tea lady car thing reminds me of that old cliche:

Revolutionary:  When the revolution comes, we'll all have Rolls Royces!

Worker:  I don't want a Rolls Royce

Revolutionary:  You'll get what your given.

I've just come back from the countryside where the Fluffy family were visiting relatives. 

While there, we went to the Var Furdo and I used the hot spring pools outside. 

I haven't been for years (previously at Gellert) but I really rather enjoyed sitting in the hot water this time around.

What's the best one to visit in Budapest nowadays?   

I was thinking  Dagály but it looks more of a summer thing.

Mrs Fluffy doesn't like Szchenyi and I don't want to use Gellert.

We went to the bath area at Rudas years ago. My husband was taken there all the time by his uncle when my hubby was a child.
His uncle went there several times per week.
He was an expert on how long to sit in each bath , they would then rest before dressing and leaving the spa.
I found it to be very pretty inside but boring as heck to me.
I love swimming not sitting in hot water, although I always seem to be in some sort of hot water...
If you are looking for a fairly local place that is newer and quiet and not too pricey then the Paskal swimming pool has a new addition, a large hot mineral water area, They also have an outdoor tub of ice water and really hot water next to each other.There is also a shallow indoor swimming pool as the one outdoors maybe a bit too chilly to swim in for some people this time of year. The water is mineral water, or at least a mix of mineral waters in all areas of the spa including the pools.
Can't find my notes about pricing but I know they have a discount if you only stay for 2 or 3 hours. One price and you can use everything, they have a nice indoor area upstairs with lounge chairs for resting afterwards.
Should be nice during school hours.Free parking also. at least last time it was free 2 years ago.
As usual,we have 3 things going on at once, I do believe the discount for Paskal was 1,800 for those few hours.
We just finished some work on the fan in our bathroom, was going to buy a new one this time but my husband got os into the job that he fixed the old fan, fingers crossed it stays running for more then 4 years this time! He just climbed up to the top of the ladder and removed the wall and plaster, fixed the fan, put everything back and even matched the paint to cover the new plaster up.
Scares me sometimes because he isn't a spring chicken any longer, if only we bought this place 25 years ago, he would of done it over himself with style.At this point we no longer really care much about remodeling this old place, good enough as long as everything works.
He was talking about retiling the kitchen himself but I'm not so sure I could live through a big job around here right now.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

....
I found it to be very pretty inside but boring as heck to me.
I love swimming not sitting in hot water, although I always seem to be in some sort of hot water...
If you are looking for a fairly local place that is newer and quiet and not too pricey then the Paskal swimming pool has a new addition, a large hot mineral water area, They also have an outdoor tub of ice water and really hot water next to each other.There is also a shallow indoor swimming pool as the one outdoors maybe a bit too chilly to swim in for some people this time of year. The water is mineral water, or at least a mix of mineral waters in all areas of the spa including the pools.
Can't find my notes about pricing but I know they have a discount if you only stay for 2 or 3 hours. One price and you can use everything, they have a nice indoor area upstairs with lounge chairs for resting afterwards.
Should be nice during school hours.Free parking also. at least last time it was free 2 years ago.
As usual,we have 3 things going on at once, I do believe the discount for Paskal was 1,800 for those few hours.
.....
Scares me sometimes because he isn't a spring chicken any longer, if only we bought this place 25 years ago, he would of done it over himself with style.At this point we no longer really care much about remodeling this old place, good enough as long as everything works.
He was talking about retiling the kitchen himself but I'm not so sure I could live through a big job around here right now.

I'm looking for the kind of place with a hot mineral bath so it's a good tip so thanks for that.  I don't know if it did any good but I sure slept well. 

Having kids, we also had to use the slides and what have you - I still like that sort of thing.  But I'm thinking more of having a snooze in hot water while enjoying the winter sunshine. 

It was surprisingly warm - +15 C - and not that bad to walk about outside scantily dressed  I must be getting a bit old.  Everyone in the pool at the weekend was grey haired with scars from various operations.  I felt out of place but actually I'm almost as old as they are - don't know when I can get my free metro travel*.   If Mrs Fluffy could go when the kids are otherwise engaged, that'd be quite cool (or hot). 

I think the problem with being older and DIY is being up ladders if there's any condition like hypertension or circulation issues.  I had to do my guttering in the summer and I didn't feel that safe - like a bit wobbly but maybe just nerves - don't like heights anyway. 

To screw it up further,  I was scuba diving recently and I've messed up my ears now.  I've been diving before but didn't have any problems until this time. Doc locally say visibly nothing wrong but my hearing seems to be out of whack and Mrs Fluffy and the kids have said that I cannot hear what they say.  I'll have to see an ENT specialist to have a poke around.  Might need grommets or something.

*I'll get it and then lose it immediately due to Brexit.  Great.

What is sort of nice about the mineral spa at Paskal is the new section is enclosed in a glass building so you can sit inside in the hot water and look outside at the trees and grass. One thermal area has a automatic door that opens when someone is close to it so you can move between the indoor and outdoor area without getting ut of the water, they have a bar outside, not sure if that's open all year long or not. Beer and hot water, sounds a bit like a "health " issue or a sanitation one!
Free travel is suppose to happen at 65 here, Will  let you know when my BD comes, going to hit the road , rather the rails. My poor husband he will have to get off the couch now and see Hungary from top to bottom.
Plan on taking a mini-adventure at least once a week or until we get tired of it.
Not so much like we are too cheap to buy a road pass and petrol but I hate making my husband drive when it gets darker plus it is tiring to drive for hours and hours, this way he can relax and enjoy the sights too.

Yesterday when out running errands we ran into the 66 year old neighbor of ours who lives just 2 doors down.
She loves to chat so we stood on the sidewalk talking, I made sure we didn't block the walkways though...
Caught up on the local gossip in the house.
What she told us sort of upset me and also made me a bit angry as well.
I noticed another "old lady" who has a flat on our floor as well, 3 doors away hasn't been around much. I asked my husband where she has been since we haven't seen her for months.
Found out she passed away in August.
Sad but what makes me mad is she has no one to leave her large flat to and has more then 14 million Forints in the bank that we know of which is going to be unclaimed.
WTH?? She knew no one, has no relations?
I wonder how hard the banks and gov. actually look for relations before they take all of her life savings and flat?
She seemed to be in her mid 60's, not that old, guess she didn't expect to kick it so soon.

Rawlee wrote:

Because the real problem is the extinction of bees. And not a single ecologist ... snip... care about it.

As someone who has two degrees in Ecology, this has got to be one of the most ignorant comments I have ever seen. Concerns about declining bees has been a topic of concern for a long time among Ecologists. As this decade old article shows:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio … ommunities

How can anyone take any of your other extraordinary flawed statements seriously when you fail so badly in even bothering to check out a few basic facts first before making such an explicitly flawed accusation. And you call other people "simple minded"?

Hm....

"Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he holds his tongue." Proverbs 17:28. Or the modern version: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

That mash-up is hilarious -- thanks!

Vicces1 wrote:

That mash-up is hilarious -- thanks!

What Mash-up?

Fluffy's:
BTW2, My  colleague sent me this which I found funny: Trump vs Obama.

Vicces1 wrote:

Fluffy's:
BTW2, My  colleague sent me this which I found funny: Trump vs Obama.

Yes, saw that.  It was very well  done.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

You're in the hot seat.

Easy decision.

Grandma, since she got a Nobel Prize she is clearly working in some liberal, so called "green" energy sector, which will destroy the all important extractive petrochemical industry. Not only that... but being a scientist It is unlikely the state's so generous gift will convince her to appropriately appreciate the dear leader of the state. 

Meanwhile the child, if survives can be constantly reminded of how the state and its dear leader saved his life, and can be --- moved by such selfless state kindness --- to use his talents for the benefit of the state. Probably in the petrochemical industry.... 

cough.... cough... cough...

In other words, "hot seats" don't exist for those who refuse to sit or take up the space of a real moral/ethical location. Only the inherently ethical have ethical dilemmas... 

Nice answer.   One of many possible.   They still have hot seats even  in the most socialist or illiberal systems as its impossible not to delegate.  Risks are higher of course.

The tea lady car thing reminds me of that old cliche:

Revolutionary:  When the revolution comes, we'll all have Rolls Royces!

Worker:  I don't want a Rolls Royce

Revolutionary:  You'll get what your given.

Glad you liked it.

My own, more "real" reply would be to give the tea ladies "only" a production Rolls Royce, saving a few million, and use saved money to pay for the treatment of both sick people. That is, there is usually plenty of money to help most everyone in society.... if only there is the political will to do so.

So often, the real problem is the lack of political will....

ATM my husband is reading a news article about big changes here with National Health.
According to this article in the near future the health system will be rating people on whether or not they are paid up on their monthly coverage if they have lost a job or are no longer students. If they haven't paid into the system within 3 months of quiting a job, leaving school etc. then they will be given a sort of brown light to refuse to see them until they pay what is owed into the health system.
Only 100,000 people in Hungary are paying out of pocket for coverage as we do.
Most are covered by their jobs or as students.
The system has lost millions of dollars with people using the coverage but not being enrolled by a paying benefactor.
To many people using the system without anyone paying for their useage. As it stands now if you have a card and are no longer employeed etc. the doctors and hospitals will still treat you, after this bill passes they can refuse service to those who have fallen behind in payments by at least 3 months.
Only, 100,000 people seems very low to me, no wonder the system needs improving.
It will be a new bill which needs to be signed by the HU pres before going into effect.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

they will be given a sort of brown light to refuse to see them until they pay what is owed into the health system.

I got injured a few year ago. Had to go to emergency care. Their system even then said I had a "brown dot". They treated me but said I would have to pay unless the dot went green. Spent the next week (with my injury in tow) providing bank statements to a few offices to prove I had paid on time, every month.

Two weeks later, my dot went "green". The explanation why it went "brown", was quite a bit of blah-blah about me being an expat (i.e. "the excuse"). So I came away with the same impression and experience I had with most every digital data system in Hungary -- it is either not well designed, incompetently managed, or both.

Side note: Refusing to treat someone who needs care goes against the Hippocratic Oath.

klsallee wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

they will be given a sort of brown light to refuse to see them until they pay what is owed into the health system.

I got injured a few year ago. Had to go to emergency care. Their system even then said I had a "brown dot". They treated me but said I would have to pay unless the dot went green. Spent the next week (with my injury in tow) providing bank statements to a few offices to prove I had paid on time, every month.

Two weeks later, my dot went "green". The explanation why it went "brown", was quite a bit of blah-blah about me being an expat (i.e. "the excuse"). So I came away with the same impression and experience I had with most every digital data system in Hungary -- it is either not well designed, incompetently managed, or both.

Side note: Refusing to treat someone who needs care goes against the Hippocratic Oath.

This policy will last 5 minutes after someone dies in the street or inside or immediately outside the hospital after having been refused treatment for some trivial issue which could have been solved for $5 worth of antibiotics. Murphy's law (for the government) will be it'll be someone vulnerable like a sick kid. 

Apart from the Hippocratic Oath, the principle in the EU (and elsewhere) has always been free at the point of delivery - e.g. they'll save you then sort it out afterwards.  They won't take off that plaster cast from your arm or leave you bleeding on the stretcher from the road accident or refuse you insulin so you die. 

In any case, under the EHIC, they are obliged to treat you.  They have no knowledge of your actual status if you go in with an apparently valid EHIC.  I know there are no real tests for issuing an EHIC other than putting a valid ID number (or similar) on the application form.

In my own country, immigrants pay a surcharge (don't know how much, maybe £400 p.a. so it's not a lot) and then the applicant visa holder can use the health service "for free".

I am sure that anyone willing to give any doctor a few bucks will be seen whether they are paid up or not.
You know the saying, money talks and **** walks.
I know what happens without insurance in the US.. It's called the county hospital.
When my eldest sister was 17 and about to start college she was thinking of becoming a nurse. I know she would of been good at it, think I also would of been rather good as a head nurse.
Anyways, my mother wanted to be a nurse during the great war but her female native American relations were so against it that she couldn't talk them into signing her papers to join the military.
She was 17 at the time too, just like my sister.
Well when my sis was going on and on about nursing for some reason our mother siad it wasn't a good job for a lady. OK that's odd.
To get it out of my sister's system my mom called up the head nurse of the LA county hospital, guess this was in the late 1960's when people were a bit more personal and helpful then these days.
She told the women that she didn't want my sister to be a nurse and asked her to give her the "grand tour" of the jobs she would have to do as a nurse.
Just insane, mom and that head nurse took my sister into different rooms where people were beyond hope, showed her bed pans that needed to be cleaned and all sorts of nasty things which turned off my prim and proper sister.
No ideas why they ganged up on her like that? Mom had other ideas for my sister, way too controlling. Wanted to see her married off and not a nurse.
My other sister had no insurance in the late 1980's. She suffered such a bad asthma attack that her boyfirend had to grab her and speed in his car to the ER. She was already blue and flat lined when she arrived.
They pulled a miracle and brought her back. After allowing her to rest and check her vitals they released her within hours because she didn't have insurance.
I don't think Hungary would treat anyone like that if their case was that serious.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

....
Just insane, mom and that head nurse took my sister into different rooms where people were beyond hope, showed her bed pans that needed to be cleaned and all sorts of nasty things which turned off my prim and proper sister.
No ideas why they ganged up on her like that? Mom had other ideas for my sister, way too controlling. Wanted to see her married off and not a nurse.
My other sister had no insurance in the late 1980's. She suffered such a bad asthma attack that her boyfirend had to grab her and speed in his car to the ER. She was already blue and flat lined when she arrived.
They pulled a miracle and brought her back. After allowing her to rest and check her vitals they released her within hours because she didn't have insurance.

I don't think Hungary would treat anyone like that if their case was that serious.

Nursing, doctoring, aid workers (and priests/nuns) are vocations although their motivations may vary.  Some people just have to do it  regardless of what's behind their interest.

No-one in Europe dies because they don't have insurance*.  I won't re-hash the well rehearsed criticism of the US medical system despite Trump's statements.   I am rather shocked however by the extent of it in the news recently - people rationing their insulin.  That's insanity and will kill people.  I don't know why people can even remotely put up with it.  Sensible thing to do is move to Australia, NZ, Canada or Europe! 

* sure, they'll die of other things like negligence or mistakes occasionally but that's really uncommon considering the many millions of treatment hours there are.

fluffy2560 wrote:

This policy will last 5 minutes after someone dies in the street or inside or immediately outside the hospital after having been refused treatment for some trivial issue which could have been solved for $5 worth of antibiotics.

Not having read the actual proposal, I think one should approach with caution exactly what may or may not be included in any acts or legislation until informed. For example, it may be for non-life threatening issues. So if your arm is in a plaster cast, well... you need to pay up to get it remove. Having an arm in a cast is unlikely to kill you.

Oddly, when the MSZP was in power, and made a 500 HUF fee to see the doctor, people went bonkers. And the law was withdrawn.

But... Quite frankly, on "doctor day" in my village, going to the doctor is a bit of a social-gossip event, and in many cases has little to do with actual health care -- so I *kind of* understood the fee, to avoid such non-sense visits which affect the system (and prevent people with real problems from seeing the doctor in a timely manner).

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I am sure that anyone willing to give any doctor a few bucks will be seen whether they are paid up or not.

There are many private practice doctors who will happily bill (or ask for cash on demand) for patient services.

But a doctor treating patients on National Health can get into a lot of trouble for taking black money. One local doctor where I live was heavily fined a few years ago for doing such. in fact, last year needing a house call for a very sick relative unable to travel, no doctor would come. They all said simply, "call the ambulance" -- that is, they did not want to get out of the system.

klsallee wrote:

....
Not having read the actual proposal, I think one should approach with caution exactly what may or may not be included in any acts or legislation until informed. For example, it may be for non-life threatening issues. So if your arm is in a plaster cast, well... you need to pay up to get it remove. Having an arm in a cast is unlikely to kill you.

Oddly, with the MSZP was in power, and made a 500 HUF fee to see the doctor, people went bonkers. And the law was withdrawn.

But... Quite frankly, on "doctor day" in my village, going to the doctor is a bit of a social-gossip event, and in many cases has little to do with actual health care -- so I *kind of* understood the fee, to avoid such non-sense visits which affect the system (and prevent people with real problems form seeing the doctor in a timely manner).

I think probably it's some politician running up the flagpole to see how much resistance there is.  It's going to be unacceptable across the board especially considering marginalised people there are out in the sticks. Total vote loser!   They say stuff like this in the UK too and it never comes to anything.   

They'd be better off putting 2Ft on a litre of fuel under guise of funding health care for pollution.  But they'd never do that either - it'd just go into a general fund.  Politicians don't like ring fenced funds that they cannot get their sticky fingers in.

Things could go south quickly with a broken arm - risk of infection or other issues if not a simple break.   At a push, one could remove the cast yourself even with a pair of heavy duty kitchen shears/snippers. I've taken out my own stitches before and Mrs Fluffy has also taken out stitches when they haven't fallen out themselves.  In fact, it's quite easy to give yourself or with another person things like flu vaccines.  Almost trivially easy to do.  I think 20-30 minutes practical training would be enough.  Self-help goes a long way (I'm prompted by the reports of a measles outbreak in Samoa)

fluffy2560 wrote:

Things could go south quickly with a broken arm - risk of infection or other issues if not a simple break.

Removing a cast only occurs after the injury has healed. So infection, et al due to the break is no longer an issue. Skin fungus may become an issue if not removed... but as you said... a pair or stout cutters and it is off.

Side note : When I broke my hand, the plaster was "one sided". And held on with an easily removable cloth wrap. Modern methods of casting some breaks means no complicated need of removal. It varies.

klsallee wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I am sure that anyone willing to give any doctor a few bucks will be seen whether they are paid up or not.

There are many private practice doctors who will happily bill (or ask for cash on demand) for patient services.

But a doctor treating patients on National Health can get into a lot of trouble for taking black money. One local doctor where I live was heavily fined a few years ago for doing such. in fact, last year needing a house call for a very sick relative unable to travel, no doctor would come. They all said simply, "call the ambulance" -- that is, they did not want to get out of the system.

Obviously not knowing the circumstances entirely, perhaps the Doc assessed that the most sensible thing to get the ambulance there as they will have more gear and transport in an emergency.  Free anyway. 

We had an ambulance multiple times for my dearly departed mother (in the UK) or even my MIL in HU earlier this year.   

The ambulance techs were very efficient and very nice here. They had all the gear to support a patient enough to get them into the hospital system.   

They always seem to take patients to hospital to get them checked over regardless of what actually happened.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

I am sure that anyone willing to give any doctor a few bucks will be seen whether they are paid up or not.

There are many private practice doctors who will happily bill (or ask for cash on demand) for patient services.

But a doctor treating patients on National Health can get into a lot of trouble for taking black money. One local doctor where I live was heavily fined a few years ago for doing such. in fact, last year needing a house call for a very sick relative unable to travel, no doctor would come. They all said simply, "call the ambulance" -- that is, they did not want to get out of the system.

Obviously not knowing the circumstances entirely, perhaps the Doc assessed that the most sensible thing to get the ambulance there as they will have more gear and transport in an emergency.  Free anyway.

No. They simply refused. Said they did not do house calls. Even to make an assessment. Not even for something trivial to remove a splinter. No house calls. Period. Even the private practice doctors said same. Relative refused to go to a hospital* (which the ambulance would result in). So we had a problem. An inflexible system versus an inflexible person.

*Given the state of hospitals here, I actually understood.

** End of story: The relative would not admit how sick they were. But if a doctor had come and examined this person, the person may have agreed to call the ambulance. Finally, after a very long time (month) the relative agreed to get the ambulance. The ambulance came. And the relative died in the ambulance on way to the hospital. So much for "public health care". A system that was not flexible enough to accommodate those that need care, and professional advice, despite their proclivities. So, yes, people can die under a public health care system if they happen to be a square peg that does not fit into the system's round hole.