Driving in the Region...

Fluffy,

Shouldn't this be in the Germany forum?

What you are referring to are the "umweltzonen" or Environmental zones, and the "feinstaubplakette" that is needed to enter them, yes even as foreign tourists just passing through.  It's good to be familiar with these German terms so one can recognize them on the road.  Here's an example of a sign:



The sign will show which colors may enter the zone.

Just to give my own fairly recent experience, just 2 years ago I purchased my sticker when I bought an old 1989 Audi there.  So the car was then about 25 years old, non-euro emissions class, and I was given a green sticker and paid 10 Euro at the TUV station in Dusseldorf.  So, no rip off there...but maybe things are changing.

A very useful site for learning about it and ordering a sticker is:
https://umwelt-plakette.de/plakettenshop.php

Romaniac

romaniac wrote:

Fluffy,

Shouldn't this be in the Germany forum?

No, people in Germany already know about it. It was aimed at people occassionally driving from HU to UK or through Germany to somewhere else who may not know about it.  When I drive and stay overnight I usually stay in the centre of big cities so I can have a wander around at night. Not necessary to have a sticker if staying out in the country or near the highway.

romaniac wrote:

What you are referring to are the "umweltzonen" or Environmental zones, and the "feinstaubplakette" that is needed to enter them, yes even as foreign tourists just passing through.  It's good to be familiar with these German terms so one can recognize them on the road.

I didn't want to use the German term for English speakers because not everyone speaks Deutsch. But it's good to have these signs shown here. My experience is that these signs are really small and easy to miss. I think the fine is EUR 80.

romaniac wrote:

Just to give my own fairly recent experience, just 2 years ago I purchased my sticker when I bought an old 1989 Audi there.  So the car was then about 25 years old, non-euro emissions class, and I was given a green sticker and paid 10 Euro at the TUV station in Dusseldorf.  So, no rip off there...but maybe things are changing.

It's OK if you actually go to Germany and collect it but if you are just passing through and travelling overnight or at weekends, they are not so easy to get unless you plan well ahead and locate a convenient TUV place.  If one wants to be nicely organised ahead of the trip, then online ordering is a better option.

If your 1989 Audi was petrol, fitted with a catalytic convertor and an emissions control system then it would have been given a green 4 sticker.  If it was a diesel, without the required control system then you should have a red 1 or not been issued with a sticker at all. I think the actual sticker costs EUR 5 if you collect it so not sure about the EUR 10 you paid.

romaniac wrote:

A very useful site for learning about it and ordering a sticker is:
https://umwelt-plakette.de/plakettenshop.php

Good for background but jeez, think carefully about ordering it from there unless you feel made of money or have an urgent need. Look at the attempt to rip off people on courier charges!  EUR 58 !!! or even EUR 19 for machine printed stickers for your number plate!!  Anyway, my point was that EUR 10 was a relatively good deal but EUR 8.90 for a handwritten version is even better.

Oh wow I hadn't noticed the courier fee on that site, indeed outrageous.  Actually I may have paid 5 EUR, not entirely sure ...but I know it wasn't more than 10.  Yeah, it's a petrol variety you mentioned   I actually bought the car in NL, but my hotel was in Dusseldorf and the TUV station was half a km away.  I drove the car in without the sticker and got it when I returned to the hotel, no harm done.  I walked in on the spot showed the Dutch registration and paid and walked out, fairly quick and easy.  I would agree that getting it online ahead of a trip does make things smoother, especially if you don't speak German or want to find a selling point.

I'm not sure if they are doing controls more closely now or not, but before at least.....the only time you really had to be concerned about not having the sticker was if you were stopped for speeding or had illegally parked, the Polizei then checks for them and adds it on to the citation.

romaniac wrote:

Yeah, it's a petrol variety you mentioned   I actually bought the car in NL, but my hotel was in Dusseldorf and the TUV station was half a km away.  .....the only time you really had to be concerned about not having the sticker was if you were stopped for speeding or had illegally parked, the Polizei then checks for them and adds it on to the citation.

Yes, it had to be petrol. I own several cars, including a 19 year old 4WD and because it's petrol, it gets a green sticker even if it's really ancient.  My diesel cars, one gets a green sticker as it's Euro V and the other one is Euro 3 so cannot drive in the centre of many towns and gets the yellow sticker. Problem.

I wouldn't be too certain about getting away with it.  They are using CCTV these days and number plate recognition.  From I believe June 2017 in all 28 states the EU police will have registration info interchange so it could become difficult with all sorts of inter-country fines appearing in the local post.

See here: Cross Border Enforcement Directive.  Note the statement ".....due to the ECJ ruling, Denmark, Ireland and UK are affected by the change in legal basis as the Directive will now also be extended to them with a later deadline of May 2017"

Another nail in the EU's coffin for interference in people's lives

fluffy2560 wrote:

permission to drive in the urban area is needed according to the pollution level of your car.

Why?

Is it some soot issue (more common with diesel engines)?

Because most every other pollutant (NO, CO, O3, CO2, etc.) usually rises above the city limits and is shared with the rest of the planet.

And since we now know that Volkswagen cheated on its emission reports, giving higher scores to cars that did not warrant them (since in Germany the company making the car self reports such emission values --- i.e. they do not require independent verification), this entire "requirement" seems more typically political than factual.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

permission to drive in the urban area is needed according to the pollution level of your car.

Why?

Is it some soot issue (more common with diesel engines)?

Because most every other pollutant (NO, CO, O3, CO2, etc.) usually rises above the city limits and is shared with the rest of the planet.

And since we now now that Volkswagen cheated on its emission reports, giving higher scores to cars that did not warrant them, this entire "requirement" seems more typically political than factual.

Guess it is political but to answer the question, yes, it's the particulates in soot from diesel engines as it's considered a carcinogen.   It stems from the idea way back that diesels were more economical.  However, now in Germany, the government subsidises the installation of a retrofit DPF (Diesel Particle Filter). I think the subsidy is about EUR 700 per car.

It's not just VW, I think it's spread to Ford, Skoda (also VW), GM etc too.  Anything with a Bosch emissions control system.  They seem to be at the centre of it from what I've read.

fluffy2560 wrote:

Guess it is political but to answer the question, yes, it's the particulates in soot from diesel engines as it's considered a carcinogen.

And Ironic.

Germany, where coal is still the largest single source of national electricity production.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in … production

Coal: which is a horrendous local and global source of pollution.

As if you... driving a car through a city, just trying to get from point A to point B, really, really matters in the grand scheme of things. 

And add to that, I often had to drive through, yes though, Munich when we lived in Switzerland on trips to Hungary, as there was no "ring road" around the city. Always annoying. So a driver has to be penalized (and annoyed by having to drive through Munich city traffic) because the local or national German government can not plan a ring road around a city? Great. Thanks.

In the end I can but say: Sorry, but I am not one who is impressed by "German" local or world views.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's not just VW, I think it's spread to Ford, Skoda (also VW), GM etc too.  Anything with a Bosch emissions control system.

Interesting. Can you provide a reliable news link that implicates Ford or GM with installing emission control defeat devices (which is what VW did)?

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

It's not just VW, I think it's spread to Ford, Skoda (also VW), GM etc too.  Anything with a Bosch emissions control system.

Interesting. Can you provide a reliable news link that implicates Ford or GM with installing emission control defeat devices (which is what VW did)?

Actually there are weasel words around it so hard to say exactly according to some news reports. Ford itself refused to comment as did others. Obviously they do not want a law suit.

But others are implicated as shown here: News Report on other cars

Mazda is 30% owned by Ford so one might think ...smoke....fire....independent reports.....

Thanks for the heads up on Germany.
I plan to avoid ever driving in Germany again but still good to know what's going on.
Years ago we shipped several cars to HU from Calif.
We decided after a couple of years to ship a nice big Adui back to the US, we liked the car allot and were unable to sell it in HU as at the time there was some sort of issue with the age of the car or something such as that.
Car still looked brand new and ran great.
We had insurance on it in HU because we used it while on holidays in HU for a few years.
Husband decided to drive to a port in Germany to the shipyard.
Got all the way to Germany and the shipyard waited in super long line for hours to get inside the gates of the port.
Got to the front and they charged him over $100. just for the day of driving through Germany even though we had HU insurance, this was after 1989 so not the old system in HU any longer.
Husband paid then the clerk gave him so much run around that he was about to miss the last train back to HU for the day, he was flying to the US the very next day out of HU.
He just turned around and drove with the car all the way back into HU where we stored the car for years in my MIL's garage. Over 10 years it sat there getting older and older.
We now never drive in Germany and we usually try as hard as possible to catch air flights that do not even go over German air space. Sad really my grandfather was German but we avoid the place like the plague.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

....Got to the front and they charged him over $100. just for the day of driving through Germany even though we had HU insurance, this was after 1989 so not the old system in HU any longer...

What was the $100 for?  Couldn't have been for insurance for driving through Germany.  It's not the job of dockyard workers to fine people for driving through Germany.

fluffy2560 wrote:

But others are implicated as shown here: News Report on other cars

Mazda is 30% owned by Ford so one might think ...smoke....fire....independent reports.....

Ah, yes, thought that would be it.

There is a very important difference here which I alluded above:

EU regulations allow the auto manufacturer to themselves "certify" their cars. These self regulations are, in a simple word: pathetic. So it is rather "easy" for an auto manufacturer, acting fully within EU law, to setup the most perfect and ideal conditions to "satisfy" the pollution regulations.

Meanwhile, in the USA, auto certification is done by independent companies and cars must be routinely checked to get their road worthy registration renewed. And VW installed defeat devices, which were designed to detect when a car was being tested specifically to give false readings, which is completely illegal to do in the USA. Huge, huge difference.

To recap: EU tests done were legal under the law but not in the "spirit of the law", while in the USA the company actually acted to illegally violate USA emission testing law.

And these EU wide regulations were lobbied to be so weak by... wait for it here it comes: Germany. Why? Because Germany has a vested and bias interest in its auto manufacturing industry (and by biased need I say that the German State of Lower Saxony owns 12.7%  of Volkswagen ... so the various German governments are hardly an independent lobbyist in the EU system).

And, yes, I do believe in quid pro quo -- Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Uber, et al. if they want to do business in the EU should also follow EU rules as well. But rather, that is not so much my point, as the all too often world view that Germany is oh so "green and fuzzy", while reality is not quite so neat and clean when placed under honest review.

That's what he was told at the dockyard, he paid too, drove away very angry, made the round trip drive from Budapest to a N. port in Germany all to just turn around and go back to HU. Took off in the morning for a long haul flight to Cali.
He begged the guy to let him do all the paperwork after the car was brought in so we had time to ship it off. No, all slow going, think the guy did it on purpose to to mess us up, wouldn't doubt it at all. No time left to ship the car had to bring it back to HU. We did wait to long to ship it but there was no excuse for the way they handled it at the yard.
If I ever want trouble of any sort, I just need to enter Germany.
Every time I am in that country the weirdest most strange and rude things happen to one of us.
Had to call a women a N**i back on a train in Frankfurt in 1978.
Long story but she was out of her mind, the ticket agent on the train removed her from the compartment we were to share with her, lucky day for her, I was ready to be arrested she made me so mad.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

That's what he was told at the dockyard, he paid too, drove away very angry, made the round trip drive from Budapest to a N. port in Germany all to just turn around and go back to HU. Took off in the morning for a long haul flight to Cali.
He begged the guy to let him do all the paperwork after the car was brought in so we had time to ship it off. No, all slow going, think the guy did it on purpose to to mess us up, wouldn't doubt it at all.

Are you saying your hubby drove to Hamburg or wherever without any pre-prepared paperwork/documentation at all in order to ship the car back to the USA?

I wasn't with him, it was a good 18 years ago.

klsallee wrote:

EU regulations allow the auto manufacturer to themselves "certify" their cars. These self regulations are, in a simple word: pathetic. So it is rather "easy" for an auto manufacturer, acting fully within EU law, to setup the most perfect and ideal conditions to "satisfy" the pollution regulations.

It's not entirely like that but it depends what we are talking about - safety overall, roadworthiness or pollution controls.  For build (i.e. safety) standards or safe to operate on the roads at any particular time, there's something called Whole Vehicle Type Approval. There's also European Whole Vehicle Type Approval (mandatory from 2009).   That's all organised to allow cars to be recognised as compliant between states and therefore allow free movement of people and their goods. However, states can issue approvals for vehicles only sold in their market which can still be moved to another country but would need inspection once there.  In practice, all the vehicles in Europe are compliant between countries BUT the manufacturer may not have applied for the Euro version.  The basic standards for pollution control are set by UNECE (UN Economic Commission for Europe).  The HU car taxes are based on UNECE compliance as I believe are the Euro standards.

klsallee wrote:

Meanwhile, in the USA, auto certification is done by independent companies and cars must be routinely checked to get their road worthy registration renewed. And VW installed defeat devices, which were designed to detect when a car was being tested specifically to give false readings, which is completely illegal to do in the USA. Huge, huge difference.

Actually it's the same in Europe but it is a bit different per EU state when doing the roadworthiness test.  In France, the CT (Controle Technique) lasts for 2 years. In the UK cars do not need testing for the first 3 years of its life and yearly thereafter (which is insane).  HU has different rules.  One of my HU cars is 2013 but doesn't need testing until 2019 which is rather surprising.  The standards for testing are set by governments with random quality inspections even if the actual tests are carried out privately (outsourced).

klsallee wrote:

To recap: EU tests done were legal under the law but not in the "spirit of the law", while in the USA the company actually acted to illegally violate USA emission testing law.

Well, that's a bit different.  As far as I know, someone didn't think anyone would want or be able to fooling the testing system.  But now we know something else.

klsallee wrote:

And these EU wide regulations were lobbied to be so weak by... wait for it here it comes: Germany. Why? Because Germany has a vested and bias interest in its auto manufacturing industry (and by biased need I say that the German State of Lower Saxony owns 12.7%  of Volkswagen ... so the various German governments are hardly an independent lobbyist in the EU system).

Of course.  But it's governments have long   been involved with businesses either directly or indirectly.  The HU government did the same but didn't hold a stake directly.  They gave them tax breaks to build plants in Esztergom, Gyor etc.  So they were invested indirectly. 

klsallee wrote:

And, yes, I do believe in quid pro quo -- Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Uber, et al. if they want to do business in the EU should also follow EU rules as well. But rather, that is not so much my point, as the all too often world view that Germany is oh so "green and fuzzy", while reality is not quite so neat and clean when placed under honest review.

I don't blame Google etc for exploiting the system for their own ends. In fact I applaud them because those that have these great ideas (politicians) need to be held to account by the public.  What better way is there to highlight the incompetence of these people than to use their own regulations to do that?  As you might have guessed I have little respect for political types. 

But it's always been the case that Germany, France, Italy etc only pay lip service to the spirit of EU law.  Same for HU these days  over the migrants and Austria too over the border limits.

At the other extreme, UK politicians (and others I expect with agendas) see EU laws as an opportunity to layer a load of extra regulation and interference  on the electorate.  There's even a term for it. It's called "goldplating".   

This is just one more reason why many in the UK want to reign in the unelected interfering types in Brussels.

fluffy2560 wrote:

klsallee wrote:

EU regulations allow the auto manufacturer to themselves "certify" their cars. These self regulations are, in a simple word: pathetic. So it is rather "easy" for an auto manufacturer, acting fully within EU law, to setup the most perfect and ideal conditions to "satisfy" the pollution regulations.

It's not entirely like that but it depends what we are talking about - safety overall, roadworthiness or pollution controls.

I was only refereeing to pollution controls, not the other issues. In particular the issue that the EU allowed companies to game the system to get the "perfect" testing in laboratory conditions, rather than requiring independent (and thus probably more reliable and unbiased) road tests.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/25/busin … tions.html

The US allows self reporting of emission results by companies, which is also bad enough. But there are two issue to consider regarding that:

1) I had to have my car emission tested every two years in California, which is independent of other registration issues. The VW devices were specifically designed to defeat those independent test.

2) EU, and especially Germany, goes around claiming to be all concerned with air quality, it really is rather instead a huge consumer ruse. Especially since it now comes to light that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/busin … sting.html

Yeah, I am a bit annoyed by it all.

fluffy2560 wrote:

This is just one more reason why many in the UK want to reign in the unelected interfering types in Brussels.

Bureaucrats are Bureaucrats. I do no particularly care If they are elected or not. I only care if they are competent, which all too often they seem not to be.

Side note: "The Men From the Ministry" is from the UK, showing the internal bureaucratic issues from unelected officials in the UK (and satire is only satire is there is a healthy degree of truth in it). So it seems .... singular... to claim unelected, interfering types alone are a really significant reason to leave the EU**. Else the UK should first vote to leave their own bureaucracy, and only then turn to this issue in the EU.... 

** I think there are much better reasons for the UK to leave the EU.

fluffy2560 wrote:

I have little respect for political types.

In a democracy, I don't blame the politicians. I blame the electorate. It is the electorate that put the politicians on their own necks.

(I also do not blame Google et. al, they are just easy targets for incompetent politicians and an ignorant, populist electorate).

klsallee wrote:

1) I had to have my car emission tested every two years in California, which is independent of other registration issues. The VW devices were specifically designed to defeat those independent test.

It's the same across the EU.  They all have to be tested every few years for emissions and to pass the test.  The amounts allow are set by government.   Passing the test is independent (at least in the UK) of the registration BUT if the car fails, it either has to be fixed or scrapped but should not be driven on the roads.  So the registration remains but the failed test means you cannot drive it.   The tests are independent in that they are carried out by outsourced and monitored businesses. 

I am more concerned about the knock on effects right now.  If the pollution levels are different now does it mean vehicles are now in a different taxation class (e.g. more money) and would one be fined because of what VW or whoever did?  I can see lawsuits aplenty.

klsallee wrote:

2) EU, and especially Germany, goes around claiming to be all concerned with air quality, it really is rather instead a huge consumer ruse. Especially since it now comes to light that: ....
Yeah, I am a bit annoyed by it all.

Germany is a "holier than thou" country politically driven even in the face of practicality - "Atomkraft, nein Danke".  On the other hand, many countries allow the farmer out in the countryside more leeway to pass emissions tests and that means everyone else can too as one size fits all.

klsallee wrote:

Bureaucrats are Bureaucrats. I do no particularly care If they are elected or not. I only care if they are competent, which all too often they seem not to be.

I think they start out as idealistic but end up twisted and moulded by the system. It's a form of moral and ethical corruption.  In the UK, the entire civil service works to nobble reform. Eventually instead of being part of the solution, they become part of the problem.

klsallee wrote:

Side note: "The Men From the Ministry"..... Else the UK should first vote to leave their own bureaucracy, and only then turn to this issue in the EU.... 

You should look for "Yes Minister" as well.  Great radio show and great TV show.  I'm quite a fan of absurdist administrative dystopian satire.  Try also "Brasil" by Terry Gilliam (ex-Monty Python), it's a movie and surprisingly part of a trilogy, one of which was the classic "Twelve Monkeys".