OMG! No Bikinis in Bali!

The irony of this ridiculous decision is that in any number of broadcast TV advertisements aired here multiple times each and every day, they often include beauty products where the ad shows as much skin as that which would be seen of a lady wearing a bikini.  One can hear the word “sexsi” over and over again in many of these commercials.  This is simple fact, and any Indonesian living here knows this to be true. 

When the Lady Gaga concert was cancelled just about a year ago I was also disappointed, but there are some lyrics in some of her songs which I can understand could be controversial.  Just last month Aerosmith cancelled their scheduled concert over security concerns coming from bomb threats.  Those decisions were far more understandable, IMHO, than this decision regarding the Miss World Pageant which is an annual and highly viewed world wide event seen by some two billion people.     

This fiasco is a world wide embarrassment to Indonesia and I cannot view it in any other way. 

These incidences of hard line Islamic groups getting their way by using threats and intimidation has got to stop, and the only way it will stop is if majority Indonesians demand it to stop!  That is best done at the voting polls, peaceful demonstrations, and writing letters to your elected members of the appropriate DPR. 

How Indonesia is viewed by the rest of the world is totally dependent on how the Indonesian population demands it is viewed.  If you want your government to capitulate to the radical views of the very few, then don't expect the respect and support of the rest of the free world. 

Perhaps more to point, if Indonesia is serious about foreign investment, then it needs to step up to the plate and demonstrate with full resolve that it is committed to democratic principles, and that it will not allow itself to be governed by the radical views of the few.     

As for how this decision is being viewed here in Bali (vastly Hindu), it ranges from outrage to simple incredulity.  I can say this with confidence as I really do have my fingers on the pulse of the Balinese.  Some view it as just another reason why Bali might some day consider going down the path Aceh took some years ago…semi-autonomy. 

If Jakarta doesn't have the gonads to stand up against the radical views of the few, I have no doubts at all that the Balinese will.  There will be no more puputans in Bali.

Ubudian wrote:

IMHO, this was a monumentally stupid decision.

Religion is a funny old thing but extremist in religious groups are anything but funny.
I'm slightly anti the bikini section but Bali isn't Java and different cultural norms apply so I don't feel I have the right to object.

As for the religious hard liners; a bribe will shut them up because the reality is, they're just a bunch of bloody idiots out for cash as we see with the headlines in the Jakarta post shows.

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2013 … erang.html

Members of the FPI tried to forcefully take over the land, which belonged to housing developer PT Alam Sutra. The FPI claimed that it belonged to their client.

"their client", shows they're just thugs for hire.

Back to stupid - I disagree with the ruling but it isn't as stupid as it sounds.
Short of shooting the FPI and all their daft pals (I wouldn't object much), they do have power and Indonesia is treading a fine line, trying to keep a stable government without committing to a path that will bring the idiot, power mad and greedy end of Islam into direct conflict with the state.
All that'll do is bring death and misery to so many while the fools make a grab for cash and power and, should they manage it, destroy the bloody country.

Sadly, some people think they serve the Almighty but murdering and maiming so until they grow up/grow a brain, we have to be careful of open conflict.

However; you're right in so much as it makes Indonesia as a whole look not only stupid, but like we're all mad Muslims with an agenda against women and are willing to bomb anyone who disagrees.

Want an opinion from the gut - stuff the FPI and their idiot mates as the greedy bastards they are and enemies of everyone who wants Indonesia to be a better place.

That's me being subtle - you should see what I was going to write.

“…Indonesia is treading a fine line, trying to keep a stable government without committing to a path that will bring the idiot, power mad and greedy end of Islam into direct conflict with the state.  All that'll do is bring death and misery to so many while the fools make a grab for cash and power and, should they manage it, destroy the bloody country… we have to be careful of open conflict.”

With no personal offense intended Fred, you sound uncomfortably like Neville Chamberlain. 

Radical Islam is akin to a fully metastasized cancer growing in the belly of Indonesia.

Periodically placating these extremist groups only serves to embolden them and allow them to grow stronger and more influential. 

This decision regarding the Miss World Pageant (which as you understand is being held in a part of Indonesia where Muslims have virtually NO sway, viz, Bali) is a huge victory for those groups, and have no doubt that they see it that way.

Two billion people will watch this pageant, and God only knows what opinions most of them will formulate based on this cowardly capitulation to radical and extremist Islamic groups in Indonesia.

“For the record, what these people want is just what we are doing, debating on unnecessary arguments when someone else takes the credit.”

I disagree wholeheartedly!

Debating these issues is healthy, in fact, I'd say it's essential.   

What “these people want” is far more nefarious and dangerous than exchanging ideas and opinions…in fact, discussions of these issues is the LAST thing these radical groups want. 

“The root of the problem is to eradicate any system of religious belief in the mind of every human being, whatever religion it is.”

Again, I do not agree.

In Indonesia, religious beliefs are at the core of each and every one of the various cultures to be found here.  Take those religious aspects away, then you destroy the culture.  It's just that simple.

What's needed here, IMHO, is a revision of the constitution which results in a complete separation of “church” (religion) and state.   There are already way, way too many “political” parties in Indonesia, and removing those parties which clearly exist only to foster unique religious views need to be eradicated.

If somehow I've offended you Manuel, I'll be the first to apologize.

Unfortunately, your reality is not representative of the reality as it exists in Indonesia these days, and perhaps in time, as you live here for many years, you will come to realize that fact.

“Right or wrong” has nothing to do with the validity or importance of each and every unique culture that defines this great country.  Simply put, it's the reality, and the core of this great nation.   Furthermore, it's this distinct and enormous diversity that so defines Indonesia as one of the greatest countries on earth. 

No, it's not time for me to update myself, but I suggest you consider your own advice for yourself.  As with many expats who have not taken the steps to understand this great country, you are unfortunately thinking too much inside of the cultural box from which you came.

Again, I mean no offense, but I see this all the time.  You might also consider that our hosts, the Balinese, also see this all the time, and thusly formulate their own opinions about specific expats on those observations.

Good luck to you too!

I dont want to say too much. Its just too sad... very sad.

What can I say Manuel? 

That question being rhetorical, the obvious answer is “nothing.”

I will not engage you with rebuttal personal attacks, as they won't lead to anything even remotely productive.

There's an old line in my past culture which roughly goes, “you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.”

Yes Annie, it is sad, but who knows?  Maybe this string will be a resounding wake up call for those who enjoy their sleep too much?

Ubudian wrote:

“…Indonesia is treading a fine line, trying to keep a stable government without committing to a path that will bring the idiot, power mad and greedy end of Islam into direct conflict with the state.  All that'll do is bring death and misery to so many while the fools make a grab for cash and power and, should they manage it, destroy the bloody country… we have to be careful of open conflict.”

With no personal offense intended Fred, you sound uncomfortably like Neville Chamberlain. 

Radical Islam is akin to a fully metastasized cancer growing in the belly of Indonesia.

Periodically placating these extremist groups only serves to embolden them and allow them to grow stronger and more influential. 

This decision regarding the Miss World Pageant (which as you understand is being held in a part of Indonesia where Muslims have virtually NO sway, viz, Bali) is a huge victory for those groups, and have no doubt that they see it that way.

Two billion people will watch this pageant, and God only knows what opinions most of them will formulate based on this cowardly capitulation to radical and extremist Islamic groups in Indonesia.

Neville's bit of toilet paper was worthless and his silly idea of dealing with Hitler was pointless at best.
The Indo government is trying to avoid all out war with the extremist element because they know the damage and misery that'll happen if they don't.

A world away from, "I have in my hand".
The government knows how dangerous these people are to Indonesia and are trying to stop them with as little violence as possible and without a head to head that'll kill hundreds for nothing.
Must be difficult so I can't really knock them.

Yes, I'd like to see the cancer chopped out but without the cancer killing innocents first and I fear that will happen.
These people are heartless bastards and have no second thought about mass murder as Bali knows only too well.

As a note - the cancer isn't just Indonesia's but all of Islam and all of the world.
Violent extremists of any sort never help anyone but always manage to hurt plenty.

They are the enemies of Islam as much as they're the enemies of anyone else.

“The government knows how dangerous these people are to Indonesia and are trying to stop them with as little violence as possible and without a head to head that'll kill hundreds for nothing.”

You are absolutely wrong Fred!

The Indonesian government has proved it's willingness to use force against Islamic extremist terrorists on several occasions in the recent past…viz the firing squad executions of Amrozi and two others of his cadre for the 2002 Bali bombing attack, as well as the perfect assault, (and killing) of Noordin Top. 

Each of these two events came with deep concerns and considerations of reprisals. 

There have been other examples of Indonesia using brut force against these criminals, but they don't get to international news as well as these two cited events.

Frankly Fred, I would argue that Indonesia's capitulation to the  Muslim extremist groups regarding the Miss World Pageant only deludes and minimalizes its otherwise bold and effective efforts using force.

Of the 2 billion world wide viewers of the Miss World Pageant, I think it's very safe to say that precious few of them will have any recollection of just how effective Indonesia has been in the past with its fight against Muslim extremist terrorism.  I have no doubt that this will be a tremendous embarrassment to Indonesia. 

Think of this as one step forward and three steps backward, and I trust what I am saying will start to make some sense.

Good grief Manuel, Jiddu Krishnamurti has no more to do with this topic than Mahatma Gandi!

This string is about a very real and a topical issue pertaining to Indonesia today, and the video's greater philosophical implications bring nothing more to the table!

If you want to proselytize your atheist views, (those posts now having been removed), then please, start your own string!

"And I thought that the solution was intrinsic to the problem!"

Well, there you go.  On a pragmatic level the solution is about as useful as sitting on hot coals to cure hemorrhoids.
 
It's too bad your prior posts have been nuked, as reading this string now is making less and less sense.

If you hadn't engaged in personal attacks, I assume your views would still be available to read.

Ah, so you deleted those prior posts yourself.  Good call Manuel.

“Thank GOD we think differently.”

And a hearty Om, Santi, Santi, Santi Om to that!

"Nothing better than ending up with a laugh, we both know the value of this simple act."

Indeed, but only when it's mutual.

I find it odd that many atheists try to force religious people to abandon religion in favour of atheism.

The same people complain about religions forcing their version of truth on everyone but do the same thing themselves.

Someone will quote Richard Dorkins next.

Religion isn't the problem; it's members of any given religion (or lack of one), knowing they're so right, everyone else must be wrong.

I'll stick to, "Peace, love and understanding".

Thanks Ubudian for bringing this topic up. That's true that Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim country, but unlike Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Iraq, we are secular. We don't use Islam shariah to make decision for the country, unless you are in Aceh. So, Islam is not the standard of justice/truth for Indonesians and their country. 
The Indonesian government has been handled and taken care of by some ridiculous morons. Wearing bikini is not allowed, while dangdut singers in so many Indonesian villages are allowed to dance like striptease (with no sense of what so-called art like what they think they have) in front of kids and teenagers, meanwhile the kids watch their fathers dancing with the singers and putting money on their boobs. They banned Lady Gaga for being a "cult",  they forget that many Indonesians (outside Java) they have their own cults, and they have been practicing for soooo many years. Even in Java, the Muslims blend ancient Hindu practice with their everyday prayer, they call it Kejawen.
FPI (Front Pembela Islam) itself doesn't really practice Islam. They are just a political tool to distract us from being critical or to save the government's as* when some controversial issues pop out in the country.
Democracy is a joke in Indonesia, especially for minority.

Anteeka wrote:

Democracy is a joke in Indonesia, especially for minority.

As in pretty much every other country.
The powerful and greedy often gain power and abuse it for their own gain.
You only have to look at Tony Blair lining his pockets with millions of dollars for taking Britain into illegal wars to remove weapons that didn't exist.
Who knows how many dead so Blair could get rich.

Want a corrupt war criminal? look no further.

Yes, Indonesia is imperfect but it's had so little time while the mother of all parliaments is still as rubbish as it was before Cromwell.

However, I'm a big fan of SBY - I believe the bloke has done a great job under very difficult conditions.

dangdut singers

A perfect example of an oxymoron.

Just for the record, and so it doesn't appear that I've been ranting on and talking to myself, forum member Manu84 (Manuel) has taken it upon himself to delete every one of the seven or more replies he initially wrote on this string.

It would seem to me (and this is just a hint to the mods) that once a post has been replied to, it shouldn't be allowed to be either edited or deleted, thus the integrity of the discussion preserved.

It further seems to me that manipulation or deletion of posts after being replied to is a rather juvenile game, and it surely contributes nothing to any ongoing discussions or the integrity of this forum.

The funny thing is, people who watch this show live won't be able to see bikinis, but right after it's over they can go to any of the beaches on Bali and see plenty.

Ubudian wrote:

It would seem to me (and this is just a hint to the mods) that once a post has been replied to, it shouldn't be allowed to be either edited or deleted, thus the integrity of the discussion preserved.

I couldn't agree more.  People should be free to edit their posts, but if they want to delete everything, there should still be something there just like when you edit them.  When a post is deleted without a trace, it makes whoever responds to it look crazy.

HaileyinHongKong wrote:

The funny thing is, people who watch this show live won't be able to see bikinis, but right after it's over they can go to any of the beaches on Bali and see plenty.

Ubudian wrote:

It would seem to me (and this is just a hint to the mods) that once a post has been replied to, it shouldn't be allowed to be either edited or deleted, thus the integrity of the discussion preserved.

I couldn't agree more.  People should be free to edit their posts, but if they want to delete everything, there should still be something there just like when you edit them.  When a post is deleted without a trace, it makes whoever responds to it look crazy.

You mean. he's not?

If a post is edited, it leaves a trace; if deleted, none.
I have no clue what sort of effort would go into a "Post deleted by " message instead of an empty space would take, but it would be a good idea.

I've never had the pleasure of a wander to a Bali beach but bikinis are rare in Java. I did see a couple of young lasses wearing them last year but they were getting really funny looks from the other people on the beach. They are unwelcome here.
That goes back to my first comment where I suggest; "different world, different rules".

"different world, different rules"

Fred, the bikini segment of the competition would have been held in Bali, not Jakarta where the pageant finals will be held.   The unpopularity of bikini swimwear in Java has no bearing on this at all.  Moreover, how do you account for all the sexy ads on Indonesian broadcast TV (coming out of Jakarta) and the constant use of the word “sexsi” in advertising women's beauty products?  Can't you see the blatant contradiction there?

Anyway, the internet is going viral with the news and once again Indonesia's capitulation  to the demands and threats of a tiny minority of extremists causes embarrassment.  That's what at the heart of this issue Fred. 

It seems the pageant organizers have agreed to substitute bikini swimwear with sarongs.  OK, here's what I'm submitting as suggestions:

http://www.homeinbali.com/forum/uploads … 6_2251.jpg

I feel so sad to read this sort of Religious hatred on Expat.com
What has it come to
Aussie HJ

In my view, religious hatred has little if anything to do with it.  Most of these zealot fanatics are nothing more than thugs and low life scum.  I doubt most of them can even read the Qur'an, let alone understand it.

Ubudian wrote:

"different world, different rules"

Fred, the bikini segment of the competition would have been held in Bali, not Jakarta where the pageant finals will be held.  The unpopularity of bikini swimwear in Java has no bearing on this at all.

I agree, thus, "different world, different rules".
As I understand it, bikinis are pretty common in Bali and nothing to worry about.
That in mind, I see no reason to object to anyone wearing a bikini in Bali.
Oddly enough, a couple of weeks ago I was watching some old film of pre war Bali where the girls were all topless in daily life.
Not porn; just cultural norm but I'd be willing to bet the FPI and their assorted idiot pals would want the film destroyed as haram.
Saying that; I know some of the idiot bunch want Borobudur and other ancient temples destroyed as if they were some threat to Islam.
The stupidity of trying to wipe out history in some attempt to make it look as if Indonesia has always been a Muslim country is beyond anything I can understand.

As for Indonesian TV, I'm amazed the hotheads never seem to moan about it.
The guy who is supposed to cut out the naughty bits is really crap at his job as he seems to miss most of it - that or he simply doesn't understand it.

Just in case anyone is of the opinion Ubudian is displaying any religious hatred; I don't believe so.
He's clearly against radical Islam but I'm a Muslim and so am I.
In my humble opinion; the extremists are enemies of Islam as well as everyone else as they do nothing but give the rest of us Muslim dudes a bad name and make so many people hate us.

Almost forgot the link to the photo.

Not especially sexy girls. Apart from being way too skinny and in crap poses, I find a little more covered to be far more sexy.
I don't know about you but, when I was still handsome enough to pull a nice looking girl, I took a lot more pleasure in undressing her than if there was only a couple of bits to remove.
I've never been into bikinis, even before I got all boring.

Spoils the fun.

What the interesting if true as it?
Of course there are still many foreign tourist uses that clothing, especially at the coast of Bali

That's a fools policy! They( Indonesian authority ) didn't upgrade their brain. out of date!.

Just being sacrificing for the traditions years of those hypocrites who don't understand a freedom of expression and art. IMHO as Balinese, I don't concerned or beaned as long as they are keep and respect for Balinese culture and tradition.

# No offense ya! just IMHO.

Ubudian wrote:

In my view, religious hatred has little if anything to do with it.  Most of these zealot fanatics are nothing more than thugs and low life scum.  I doubt most of them can even read the Qur'an, let alone understand it.

I'm in agreement with you on the zealot thuggery angle. However I have read some of the qur'an (as much as I could without getting a giant headache) I couldn't get through the first few chapters of it. (it was an English translation) the book can not be read without it being interpreted by someone. It had no clear meaning to get at. I think that is one bit of trouble with Islam. It must be interpreted from someone to someone. So it is unavoidable that you're going to be influenced by the individual interpreter. It's like watching TV evangelists without ever reading the Bible for yourself. I think that is just as dangerous. Moreover to the point, it is very wrong that the few dictate to the many. Especially when they are resorting to bullying tactics to get their way.

Aren't all religious texts open to interpretation?

Ubudian wrote:

Stuff the bikinis - kop for these.

Still single Fred? 

You might like this one better

Ubudian wrote:

Still single Fred? 

When asked if I have a wife, I always reply, "Baru satu".

HaileyinHongKong wrote:

You might like this one better

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hkvo … gleads.JPG

I'm excited

Well, at least this thread is more fun than when it started out!

Fred my boy, I think you're losing touch!

You wrote earlier,

“Not especially sexy girls. Apart from being way too skinny and in crap poses, I find a little more covered to be far more sexy.”

Those shots are all of the same model!  But, as the old saying goes, “to each his own.”

If you want to see some “sate sapi” I can send you some photo of Australian models I've shot. 

Personally I especially like pure Balinese ladies, like in this pic. 

http://www.homeinbali.com/forum/uploads … 258148.jpg

In any event, my personal opinion is that the ladies of Indonesia are some of the most beautiful women on the planet.  Their only rivals can be found in the Isaan and Ayutthaya Provinces of Thailand. 

Fred, while you're out their busy photographing your wonderful insights into local life in Java…viz, “Fred Went a Wondering” I'm also taking pictures…

Cheers, and someday we can take bets as to who is having more fun!