90-days visit limit for european

22POSTS

12 years ago

Hi,
I read in the blogs that Brazilian PF counts your days of stay since the first day you ever entered brasil and not starting each january 1st with a counter to be on 0.
I am an european citizen and aware of the 90-days in - 90-days out - 90-days in - 90-days in -90-days out.
Well, i have been entering Brasil April 10, 2012 for the first time for 2 weeks. i returned to brasil 7th of september in 2012. January, 5 2013 i reentered Brasil again. In April 1st 2013 i reentered again for 16 days. April 28 2013 i reenter Brasil again for 4 weeks. August 3, 2013 i reentered brasil again for 90-days (until october 31st). December 1, 2013 i reenter Brasil for 21 days. Then this year, January 13, 2014 i reentered brasil again for now being here still until April 12, when the 90-days limit expires. The question now is, if i go to PF unit to ask for extension, would that be a problem or they going to say no, since i am european or even overstay my 180 days since my entry of August 3rd 2013 or even April 2013? Will a denial be registered at PF? What if i leave April 9, 2014, and return within 2 weeks to Brasil, i would still have 3 days to stay, will PF tell me i have 3 days left or dont say anything and give a another 90-days to stay? what i dont understand is that i entered brasil in August 2013 for 3months returned to holland and entered again brasil for 3 weeks and reentered again on January 13, 2014. This will not be in line with what the Schengen policy reads us for european citizens, because i simply entered, left en reentered within a 90-days pause. I asked a lawyer in brasil and explained the 2013 situation and told me because i didnt reach 180-days. The lawyer contradicts himself by saying that i have to wait 90-days now.

Basically, i would like to know
1. if i can leave Brasil on the 87th day(3-days before my 90-days limit) and return to Brasil after 2 weeks without any problems?
2. would PF grant me only 3 days or will they grant me a 90-days stay again (silently, because they dont tell anything at GRU airport upon entry)?

See also

Short-stay visa requirements for Brazil - Guide
Visa 90-day limit? - 4 Replies
Will I be allowed in Brazil (90/180/365 days) - 1 Reply
90 and 180 day rule - 87 Replies
Yet another day calculation issue (90/180 days) - 8 Replies
Extending tourist staying from 90 to 180 days - many doubts here - 32 Replies
New Passport - 90 days extension - 8 Replies

James ViP

11272POSTS

12 years ago

To answer your two questions quickly:

1. No you wouldn't get back into Brazil. Like most Visa Waiver Program (VWP) countries the clock starts running the moment you enter the country. It continues to run even if you make a short hop out to one of the neighboring South American countries. This is exactly the same system as is used for VWP entries to the USA, if you duck out to Canada or Mexico the clock still keeps running there too!

2. No again, there is no extending a Shengen Area visit. It's 90/90/90/90 just as you previously stated. Schengen Area passport holders are allowed "up to" 180 days per year, that doesn't mean you'll actually get the full 180 days because of the way the system works. Only UK passport holders are permitted to extend their visa stay in order to have 180 consecutive days, due to a separate agreement between the two nations.

Cheers,
William James Woodward, Expat-blog Experts Team

Dutchstang Member

22POSTS

12 years ago

Hi,

I appreciate your quick answer. However, as i stated the Schengen 90/90/90/90 in & out policy, it is in contradiction to which i experienced in practice between August 3rd, 2013 and December 21st, 2013. I stay 90 days until oct. 31st and and returned to brasil on dec 1st 2013 for 3 weeks. PF should have told me that i was not allowed to enter according to the supposed Schengen 90/90/90/90 policy.
And even then i returned after 3 weeks again to brasil on January 3rd, no issues again.

I also read on various blogs, various ways of how PF counting the 90/180days.
1st, PF counts the date since you enter Brasil for the very first time and then the counter runs for 1 year consecutive.
2nd, PF counts start counting backwards 365 days each time you enter Brasil (floating year).
3rd, PF counts from 1st of January.

So here is a few more questions:
1. How come i was allowed to enter without any issues in december 2013 considering the schengen policy?
2. Which way of the counting above is true or can be relied on?
3. Where can i find this information how this computer of PF actually counts?

Need help with immigration or administrative procedures in Brazil?

Get in touch with an immigration lawyer

James ViP

11272POSTS

12 years ago

1. You may have experienced something different by mistake because most of the Federal Police here don't know what they're doing, but that is the law, EXACTLY THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN IN THE SCHENGEN AGREEMENT.

The Federal Police count visa stays (for tourist visas) on a "rolling year" which means when you enter the country they count back exactly one year and then count up all the days you've been in the country in that period and subtract from 180 which is the maximum amount of time you're allowed to be in Brazil in a year.

2. Schengen visits are not counted the same way. They look at your first entry date and that will always be your starting point, since that is calculated on a "calendar year", From that point on you're allowed 90/90/90/90 as far as I understand the way the Federal Police counting method if you don't use the 90 the simply diappear on the date on which they would have been used up, because of the way they interpret the wording of the Schengen Agreement, "three months in a six month period".

3. You probably can't get information about the Policia Federal computer system called SINCRE, Sistema Nacional de Registro de Estrangeiros. It's hard enough for you to get them to give a copy of what information they have on you in their system, let alone information about the system itself.

Not surprised about your confusion because as I said the Federal Police don't even know what they're doing. Ask 10 Federal Police a simple question and you will ALWAYS get 10 different and conflicting answers. That also explains why even for the longest time following the change in the way that the 180 day count was done (calendar year changed to rolling year) everybody in the PF had a different way of doing it. Looks like the same thing is happening now with the Schengen Area entries.

Cheers,
William James Woodward, Expat-blog Experts Team