Personal income tax for retired people - documents required.

920POSTS

8 years ago

Hello everybody,
For the retired people in Vietnam, what are the documents required by vietnamese personal income tax office to register them ?
Thanks in advance :-)
Laurent

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Good_Man Serial expat

206POSTS

8 years ago

Where does your retirement money go? A VN or international bank?

Is there a disconnect between the government and banks that show a monthly deposit in VN? Or does it go to an offshore account?

The main question is how do you get your money? I understand that for Americans the quarterly check-in has stopped, but I never understood the payment process.

I'm considering taking the path of least resistance and retiring next year and I'd like to know a little more of what I'm getting into.

Good_Man Serial expat

206POSTS

8 years ago

Excuse me for butting into the conversation, but I would like to ask a few questions.

Where does your retirement money go? A VN or international bank?

Is there a disconnect between the government and banks that show a monthly deposit in VN? Or does it go to an offshore account?

The main question is how do you get your money? I understand that for Americans the quarterly check-in has stopped, but I never understood the payment process.

I'm considering taking the path of least resistance and retiring next year and I'd like to know a little more of what I'm getting into.

drutter Serial expat

332POSTS

8 years ago

If you want to be on the legal (safe) side you had better register with the local police department in your neighborhood to let them know you are there.

My understanding is that even Vietemese citizens are required to do this and if you have white skin, like me, you are going to stand out like a sore thumb.

I am not retired yet, so I can't help you with that part - sorry.

Guest2023 Guest

0POSTS

8 years ago

drutter wrote:
If you want to be on the legal (safe) side you had better register with the local police department in your neighborhood to let them know you are there.

My understanding is that even Vietemese citizens are required to do this and if you have white skin, like me, you are going to stand out like a sore thumb.

I am not retired yet, so I can't help you with that part - sorry.

Ward police have nothing to do with retirement funds.

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Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

For different reasons (fiscal optimisation, etc.), it's better for me to be registered at the vietnamese personal tax income office.
I know it would be possible for me not to be registered at this office without any problems with vietnamese authorities.
Thanks in advance for your advices :-)
Laurent

Good_Man Serial expat

206POSTS

8 years ago

drutter wrote:
If you want to be on the legal (safe) side you had better register with the local police department in your neighborhood to let them know you are there.

I'm legit across the board. I own a home here, a regular F/T job and a normal home life. This was the best decision I've made in a long time.

drutter Serial expat

332POSTS

8 years ago

Same here. Married to a lovely Vietnamese lady. It's a great place to be!

I got fed up with all of the flying bullets and political BS in America.

Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

#10

My question is :
For the retired people in Vietnam (I mean foreigners without job in Vietnam ; I know people working in Vietnam are automatically registered at the tax office by their employers) , what are the documents required by vietnamese personal income tax office to be registered at this office ?
For different reasons (fiscal optimisation, etc.), it's better for me to be registered at the vietnamese personal tax income office.
I know it would be possible for me not to be registered at this office without any problems with vietnamese authorities.
Thanks in advance :-)
Laurent

Good_Man Serial expat

206POSTS

8 years ago

#11

drutter wrote:
Same here. Married to a lovely Vietnamese lady. It's a great place to be!

I got fed up with all of the flying bullets and political BS in America.

Yeah, there's a lot of that going around. I bailed four years ago and have not regretted it one little bit.

gobot ViP

1430POSTS

8 years ago

#12

Laurent futur Nha Trang wrote:
My question is :
For the retired people in Vietnam (I mean foreigners without job in Vietnam ; I know people working in Vietnam are automatically registered at the tax office by their employers) , what are the documents required by vietnamese personal income tax office to be registered at this office ?
For different reasons (fiscal optimisation, etc.), it's better for me to be registered at the vietnamese personal tax income office.
I know it would be possible for me not to be registered at this office without any problems with vietnamese authorities.
Thanks in advance :-)
Laurent

This seems like the best answer to me:

colinoscapee wrote:
You don't need to tell the VN government anything.

You are looking for a tax form to report:
"I have no job in VIetnam and 0 VND income, how much tax to I owe you"?
Your best bet is to just ask at the tax office.
I doubt anyone on the forum has even thought about doing this.

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gobot ViP

1430POSTS

8 years ago

#13

Good_Man wrote:
Where does your retirement money go? A VN or international bank?

What seems to be a popular strategy is to have your retirement, social security, and any other income stream, direct deposit into a US bank, because you are American, then withdraw at any ATM in the world. Choose your bank wisely for low ATM and foreign currency conversion fees. See nerdwallet.com for recommendations.

Some expats similarly direct deposit to a big bank in the US, like Citibank or HSBC, then open local accounts at a corporate cousin Citibank/HSBC in Vietnam, for ability to transfer. Actually distant cousins though, same name, different companies, different governmental rules.

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Guest2023 Guest

0POSTS

8 years ago

#14

What on earth is this thread about? What is the status of the OP. I presume he is on some form of tourist visa like most here. He says he has no job here or income here, why on earth would he need to report to a tax office. They may cart him off to the crazy farm. Heck not even the people here who own homes and are Vnese go to the tax office. I hope he does not get an ulcer worrying about this.

Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

#15

I have some income in France (shares) but I don't want to pay taxes in France because I live in Vietnam. I prefer to pay them in Vietnam. For that, french tax office wants me to show my fiscal registration in Vietnam.

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Diazo Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#16

Oh I see. Out of my wheelhouse. I can not imagine you would be able to show residence here as a tourist. But good luck with it.

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Yogi007 Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#17

Taxation is a murky area at the best of times. France has a double tax treaty with Vietnam, so that should help.

The tax rates for share dividends here in VN is 5%. For bank interest and retirement pensions it’s Zero. Just google Vietnam PIT and you’ll see plenty of stuff on this.

Be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot. If you run around asking questions about who you need to pay tax to in this place they’ll sure as hell find something to charge you with.

If anyone does ask,,ALWAYS demand they request that information in writing on a government letterhead clearly stating why they need the info, and how it’s relevant to the double tax treaty they signed with France. And let them know , you’ll forward that letter to your legal representative in France.

If they are being sneaky they will not want to do that.

Good luck with it, and google Vietnam PIT.

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senwl Serial expat

820POSTS

8 years ago

#18

@Laurent futur Nha Trang,

These are the docs you need to submit to register as a VN tax resident.
For individuals paying income tax as high-income earners:
- Tax registration declaration;
- People’s identity card or passport for foreigners (copy).
- Two 2cm x 3cm-sized photos of the tax registrant (one to be stuck on the tax registration declaration and the other to be stuck on the tax code card).

Source: Certificate for Tax Code Registration - GBS Legal

Tax Registration Form (in Vietnamese)
Click on the green button to download and on the orange one to view.
This is the form local individuals use for their tax registration.
(Yours may or may not be a different form. Pls check at the tax office)
You'll probably need a local to help you open your tax acct in VN.

More info:
Vietnam Personal Income Tax - GBS Legal
" A resident is liable to pay tax on income sourced in Vietnam as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources (except for non-taxable income, including income from real estate transferred between a husband, wife and blood-relations, scholarships, and overseas remittances)."

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Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

#19

The double treaty tax between France and Vietnam is very clear : about my shares incomes in France, I have to pay taxes in Vietnam because I live in Vietnam 10 months a year. But if I don't show my vietnamese fiscal registration, french tax office will tax me automatically. I am speaking about capital gain on shares (with dividends it's more complicated to explain).
About the retired pensions, it's different and simple :
- public pensions : income tax has to be payed to France
- private pensions : income tax has to be payed to Vietnam (but no need to show fiscal registration to french tax office... then... :-)
It's strange but it's like that.
And I won't explain about real estate income taxes. Also too complicated to explain.

THIGV ViP

4427POSTS

8 years ago

#20

WOW.

I thought the US situation was complicated. That's insane.

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Diazo Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#21

What is your status here in VN. Some up the information provided here specifies having residence here. For the majority of us here we do not have residence in VN.Boy the taxes you must pay in France must be huge to go through all this.

Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

#22

I spend 10 months a year in Vietnam. Then, for french autorithies there isn't problem : I am resident in Vietnam although I have only tourist visa in Vietnam.
For the private pension for example, french retired people don't have to pay income taxes in France, even with only tourist visa in Vietnam. They have only to spend more than 6 months in Vietnam. No need to show vietnamese tax registration.
For capital gains with shares it's different : they have to show vietnamese tax registration to french office in order not be taxed in France...

Diazo Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#23

Then you are not a resident. Maybe you would serve yourself well to research the meaning of residence and domicile. I doubt you are a resident of VN. I know you want to be for tax purposes . I could see a lot of issues with that if you prevailed. Do you not have to renew a visa here? Your passport is from what country?

Diazo Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#24

In re-reading your last comments you certainly are not a resident of VN. You are a citizen of France hence the visa giving you permission to stay in the country for a specified amount of time. Your residence is in France. Sure there are many who mag own taxes on stocks that very well could be a resident here. A Vietnamese person for example. I presume you are not VNese.

Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

#25

For vietnamese authorities it's clear I am not resident : I have only tourist visa. But for french personal income tax office I am resident in Vietnam because I live in Vietnam more than 6 months a year (and the center of my "interests" are in Vietnam.
For example, the french retired people with private pensions living in Vietnam even with tourist visa don't have to pay income tax to France.

Diazo Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#26

Well good luck with it all. I am not only confused , but I think you are also. You say you stay here in a visa. And therefore if your line most of us you have to leave your “ residence” to your way of thinking, exit and re-enter the country. Nevertheless, this is far beyond me and probably most people on this forum. But to be certain residence and domicile are some very specific legal terms that are not associated with how us common folks interpret them. Yes, I imagine if you ask the wrong question in any government office in any country you could get a wrong answer. For example you seem convinced your a resident of VN. So if you went to a French tax office and told them I am a resident of VN for much of the year do I have to pay taxes. You would get the answer your LOOKING for. Go back to the same tax office and say to them “ I am a tourist in VN for most of the year and I suspect you will not get the answer your LOKING for. And I doubt just because you presented your status incorrectly would absolve you of penalties under the law. Do you happen to have an accountant. They should be able to get you through it all legally. But I am not certain you are wanting to do it legally. Shame you do not want to pay taxes in your mother county. The country that gives you the opportunity many here would love to have. That is investing in companies where their is transparency . Most citizens here would love to be able to invest in the West and pay the taxes. Not passing judgement. There are oodles of foljs who just do not want to pay their fair share of taxes.

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Ciambella ViP

3482POSTS

8 years ago

#27

Very good post, Diazo.

Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

#28

ahah, you are a funny guy Diazo :-) Thanks for the moral lesson but I don't need it :
- I always follow strictly the laws, and specially the double treaty tax between France and Vietnam ;
- I always payed all taxes I had to pay. Until now I payed a lot to France and I continue paying the income tax to France for my public pension ;
- I have nothing to hide and my situation is very clear : I live in Vietnam with tourist visa. For french personal income tax office, I am resident in Vietnam although I live in Vietnam with tourist visa. It's like that. I live in Vietnam and the center of my interests is in Vietnam. It's the french law ;
- I don't know why I should pay the taxes on my capital gains to France : the double treaty tax between France and Vietnam is very clear : this tax has to be payed to Vietnam.

You make a confusion between fiscal residence (laws about taxes) and immigration laws (rules to stay and go/out in a country). For example, in Thailand, now you can have a 5 years visa (renewable 4 times = 20 years). It's more than the resident cards delivered in Vietnam for people married with vietnamese people (3 years, 5 years). However this visa 5 years (20 years) doesn't mean you are a fiscal resident in Thailand.
Just to say that to have a resident cart doesn't mean you are a fiscal resident. And to have a tourist visa doesn't mean you are a "tourist".

I know I am not, at the moment, resident in Vietnam for the vietnamese fiscal administration. If I was, I wouldn't have asked this question on expat.com.
I know it's a technical question. If it was an easy question, I wouldn't have asked it on expat.com.

Shame on you for imagining I don't want to do the things legally. Think about one minute before illegally accusing people...

Thanks to everybody for the different advices and specially to senwl :-)

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senwl Serial expat

820POSTS

8 years ago

#29

@ Diazo

The term ''tax (PIT) resident'' is slightly different in meaning from the word "resident".

Taxation in Vietnam – Personal Income Tax (“PIT”)

I quote from the link above.

Any foreign individual shall be considered a PIT resident if he/ she meets one of the following conditions:
- being present in Vietnam for a period of 183 days or more within either a western calendar year or for 12 consecutive months counting from the first arriving date;
- having a permanent residence in Vietnam (including a registered residence which is recorded on the permanent/temporary residence card in case of foreigners);
- having a leased house in Vietnam with a term of 183 days or more in a tax year and unable to prove tax residence in another country

A non-resident is any individual who does not satisfy the above conditions.

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THIGV ViP

4427POSTS

8 years ago

#30

This back and forth between Laurent and Diazo is perhaps an example of why some discussions need to be kept in country of origin silos.

The US taxes all income from anywhere (subject to the $102,100 exclusion). If you pay taxes in VN or elsewhere, you can deduct for taxes paid but are still subject to taxes on the rest. Even IRS rules make some kind of differentiation between permanent residence and tax residence but that is too complex to detail unless it actually applies. Of course for almost all US expats, there is no tax liability, as what teacher is making $102,100?

The French system seem to be entirely different as it seems to entail taxes in one country or the other but not both. It kind of apples and oranges.

Of course we all reserve the right to make comments of derision or sympathy for people from other countries.

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THIGV ViP

4427POSTS

8 years ago

#31

senwl wrote:
A non-resident is any individual who does not satisfy the above conditions.

The way I read this, the OP will be better off to remain a "non-resident" for tax purposes. True?

Diazo Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#32

It seems to all hinge on the residence issue as I was saying. In Senwl post it seems the person from France can not meet the residency requirement for PIT rules here in VN. I say that based on what he has said so far. I says he must leave the country and renew his visa. Thus it seems he can not meet the first threshold... “ being present in VN for 183 days or more...”.Seems he would not meet the second threshold either. As he does not state that he has a TRC. I do not believe you can have both a visa and a TRC. And finally the the last clause would certainly not apply it would seem because the OP says he is a citizen resident of France.
At any rate it clearly seems to hinge on the issue of residency. And I do apoligize to the OP if it seemed I was saying he was doing something illegal or immoral. My point was intended to merely say if you present to the official of a government in unclear picture or provide unclear information you may get the wrong answer. I sincerely think the OP believes he is a resident of VN and this falls within the dual tax treaty. But with my understanding of what has been said on the thread he is a tourist in VN. Therefore does not fall under and dual taxation treat and owes taxes in his mother country. Dual tax treaties are meant, as I understand them to protect the revenue stream of both countries involved.
But I will stick to my view that if your mother country has a system that tries to implement laws to protect the investor through public transparency you should do your part to try and support that country financially. Here in VN no one has that type of protection in any avenue of life because no one wants to pay their taxes on anything. I know given the choice of investing in my mother country ( which I do every day of the week) or being able to invest and pay no taxes here, Ivwould opt to invest in my mother country any day of the week. And I gladly share part of my profits with my country. I have not even taken the time to see if I could avoid paying taxes in my country because I am so happy that I can invest with some amount of transparency and be protected. Not to say I am totally in love with my gun toting country either.
Long explanation to just tell the OP I am sorry if what I said offended. Not my real intention.

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senwl Serial expat

820POSTS

8 years ago

#33

THIGV wrote:
senwl wrote:
A non-resident is any individual who does not satisfy the above conditions.

The way I read this, the OP will be better off to remain a "non-resident" for tax purposes. True?

In fact he is not expected to become a tax-resident in VN as a tourist.
It's his choice and he is aware of it.

The fact is, he, for certain reasons , wants to pay tax in VN on his global income/profit from capital investment.
Well, he can do that as VN law allows a tax-resident foreigner to pay such tax.

However, in that case, OP will have to find a way (either with a 6-month business visa or a 3-month tourist visa with double extensions, or some other kind of visa) to continue his stay in VN for a contiguous period of minimum 183 days (6 months) every year.

That's my understanding of the situation.

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Yogi007 Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#34

I’m pretty sure it’s an aggregate of 183 days . That’s either in a calendar year, or 12 mths from date of arrival. If he’s here for 10 months in total he would would be considered a resident for tax purposes.

Personally , I would be better off paying PIT in Vietnam. The tax rates are far less than Australia. I don’t invest here , but a lot of guys here are living off favourable bank account interest that is Exempt from Tax here. Some of these guys were getting 18% a few years back, now it’s around 7.5% negotiated.

Dividend income is taxed at 5% in VN......in Australia that could be (depending on franking) around 50%. Some dividends don’t carry tax credits....but as a non resident you lose the tax credits, so it becomes a number crunching nightmare.

Capital gains is another sticky area. Expat Aussies can “elect” to be non resident for tax purposes and avoid the capital gains on shares , BUT get wacked capital gains on your house if you sell it.

It’s purely a case by case situation. If you read into some case studies of this issue, non resident ,resident mumbo jumbo you’ll see examples of court cases determining the status of people challenging the rulings. Some cases are near identical, but different outcomes.

Every individual has their own unique circumstances, therefore it’s hard here on a forum for anyone to give an answer/advice on what a ruling could be.

That’s where the Tax advisory people come in. I’d be getting advice from qualified tax accountants who are up to speed on expat tax matters.

Anyone want to throw religion into the mix.....😆

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Diazo Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#35

Way over my paygrade. But I know of no way to stay in the country for 183 days. That is why it is 183 and not 180 I suppose. But you get a little stamp in your passport when you leave called an exit stamp. On that day you are officiall our of VN. When you get the next little entry stamp the time starts rolling again. For 180 days, not 183. Like Yogi says, I would consult with a professional inthis area of international and tax law. And be careful what you ask for.
I know in my country I can not invest in the US stock market unless I am a resident of that country. I imagine France may have the same type of laws.

Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

#36

Special thanks again to senwl. His informations are exactly what I was looking for :-)
About the first clause, I have understood a 3 months tourist visa can be not enough, but what about the the third clause ? The third clause seems to be very easy to respect : to have a leased house for more than 183 days. Just to say I don't pay tax elsewhere. What is false but finally everybody will be happy (except Diazo) : me, vietnamese administration of course and even french administration (because french administration recognises the fact I am not PIT resident in France).

About investing in stock market of different countries, I don't understand restrictions presented by Diazo : it's not necessary to be PIT resident in France to invest in french stock market. PIT french office demands special taxes to non PIT resident for the dividends for example.
And I think millions of people all other the world invest directly in American stock market without having walked any step on US land in their life. But I am not a specialist of this topic.

Sorry for my poor english :-) I use the words I know.

Diazo Serial expat

948POSTS

8 years ago

#37

Yes, the third clause may fit your situation. But the oprative word in the clause is “and”. If you are under the asumtion that anyone can invest in any country without some mean for the governement of that country to track you then perhaps you have the ability to invest in France being a resident of VN. But I can guarantee you that you can not even open up a trading account in my country, and I could not open one in Italy, Germany, Spain, Turkey or Mexico. Because had no means for the government to track me. Yes, I can invest in, say, mutual funds that invest in those countries.You probably have similar vehicles in your country so that you can invest around the world.
Hope the third clause works for you. And I am not upset one bit about any of it. Very informative thread for me. But if it were me I would check it out with someone that is a trained professional in this area of the law.
And for those who think you can invest in VN and get a14% return ir a 7% return they too are sadly mistaken. Heck there is an African country where you can get 45% return right now. And why do you think the entire world has not ran there to make a ton of money? The word is inflation. Inflation adjusted tgey are all paying the rate of return in America. Why America? Because it is the currency for all international settlements. So check out the current inflation rate of any of these high yielding countries and subtract the inflation rate... that is your real rate of return , minus currency risk.

Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

#38

Diazo,
I think you are speaking about restrictions only for American citizens. Now, all the bank in the world are afraid of fines of American administration and they treat differently American customers.
For instance, I know the case of a person with double nationality french american because of one of his parents. This person has never lived in America but American administration is asking for the payment of the PIT to this person. They demand the amount difference between what he has payed to french administration and what he would have to pay if he lived in America.. It's completely absurd... The person is trying to supress his American nationality...

Laurent futur Nha Trang Serial expat

920POSTS

8 years ago

#39

Diazo,
I agree with you about the good interest rate returned by some countries. But there are some exceptions : for instance it was a very good option to put your money in Brazil recently with rate of 15% a year during 25 years. Now the brazilian currency has won a lot and the inflation rate in around 5% : double gain :-) Good option, specifically for fiscal resident in Brazil (15% PTI on gains), except for American citizens of course (Cf. my previous post).
About the "currency risk", it's often an advantage for you because these currencies are, in general, very low at the moment you invest. Very often the rate returned is not a lot above inflation rate but you will win with the progress of the currency in the future...

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THIGV ViP

4427POSTS

8 years ago

#40

Diazo wrote:
If you are under the asumtion that anyone can invest in any country without some mean for the governement of that country to track you then perhaps you have the ability to invest in France being a resident of VN. But I can guarantee you that you can not even open up a trading account in my country,............

As your home country seems to be US, Diazo, I think your statement is manifestly incorrect. From the website of TD Ameritrade, one of many but the brokerage one that I use: https://invest.tdameritrade.com/grid/p/ … pplication

What you'll need to open an account:

A few minutes to complete this form
Social Security Number (SSN) or Individual Taxpayer Identification Number (ITIN)
Foreign tax ID, passport, or visa number (if you're not a citizen or permanent resident of the U.S.)
Employer's name and address

The ITIN is simple to obtain. My wife had one before she immigrated so that we could file a joint 1040. That is as you say "some mean [sic] for the governement [sic] of that country to track you..." The brokerage will report your gains, losses and dividends on Form 1099. Scottrade also has a Chinese version of it's website and I don't think it is only for residents of San Francisco. For Employer, the OP can specify self-employment just as you or I could.

Look before you leap, my friend.

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