Cultural differences between Vietnam and the West?

Diazo wrote:

@LSP123
Not sure what you are trying to say. But I realize what your saying about timeliness not working in HCM. Believe it or not we have very populated cities in many countries where people can plan on commute time and arrive before the set time. It takes a thinking change and a desire to change. But all too often I hear the story you are trying to tell.... we can not change because it is different here. Yes, it is different, and for many of those reasons. Yet many of the same people who talk this way want to migrate to the West and have what the West can give them. But the West comes here and tries to tell you and this is what we hear.
There was once a thread on here a few years back where people were trying to group up with Westerners to find new ways of doing things as they are done in the West. I do not know what to say. I do know it takes many generations. Coming into capatilizm only a few years ago it will take many generation. There was a time in other forms of government where quality was not even a word, tipping was against the law. So many now their parents did not know how to teach the " New World" ideas. The next generation picked up a little. The next will be more so.

"We cannot change because it is different here".

About 8 years ago I was managing the search for bombs along seismic survey lines in the Mekong Delta. Some of the survey lines were located along the coast near Bac Lieu city, Bac Lieu province. I was taskesd with ensuring that the seismic survey lines were searched for bombs, particularly in whats known as the "transition zone".i.e., that part of the coast where the sea meets the land (shallow water alongside the beach)".

I called for a meeting with the boss of the Vietnamese clearance contractor and explained what was needed. The Colonel in charge erupted into a volley of what sounded like vituperation. I asked my interpreter what he was saying and the interpreter told me that the Colonel was "swearing at me" and saying that "there are no bombs along the beach".

Without getting into a tedious argument about how he knew without looking, that there were no bombs along the beach, I reminded the good Colonel that his company was contracted to search all areas specified and to produce certificates confirming that they had done so.

He balked and said it was ridiculous. I insisted that they comply with their contract. He said that bombs were NEVER, EVER washed ashore, or into shallow waters from the sea* in Vietnam.

I said that it can and does happen and we had to make sure that the seismic lines were safe for the seismic crews to work on.

The Colonel said that it might happen in America, but never happened in Vietnam. I said that although I am not American, I know that it does happen in the USA and it happens in Vietnam too - and in the UK where, as a bomb disposal officer in the army I was often called to beaches to deal with things that had been washed up.

The Colonel said that Vietnam bombs and American bombs are different. American bombs might move with the tides, but Vietnamese bombs definitely don't move with the tides, at which point I had great difficulty in containing my laughter, since we had found around 140 bombs so far in that part of the Mekong Delta and all of them had been of American origin.

The search began at dawn the next day which coincided with low tide. By lunch time we had located a 105mm high explosive artillery projectile and two 40mm high explosive launched grenades. I produced a clearance search certificate for the Colonel to sign, which he did reluctantly, whilst saying that the bombs they had found must have been put there by me.

More recently we were having some wardrobes and cupboards fitted at home:

I was watching the "carpenter" at work. The first cupboard that he fitted was about 7 or 8 degrees out of the horizontal. I pointed this out and he replied that the cupboard wasn't leaning, but the adjacent architrave was not vertical. I got out my iPhone and invoked the spirit level app and placed it on top of the cupboard. It showed an 8 degree list to starboard (to the right). The "carpenter said that he never trusted those electronic things as they are "never right" and went on to talk about Samsung mobile phones catching fire in peoples pockets.

So I went and got my trusty spirit level from my tool box and showed him that the spirit level definitely indicated that the cupboard wasn't level. The carpenter was unabashed and said: "Ah yes, but the spirit level is not Vietnamese made, whereas the cupboard is Vietnamese made and therefore they are incompatible and the spirit level is wrong.

Such amusement is to be had working with "craftsmen" in this country.







*bulls*t, it happens with monotonous regularity.

Funny story. Can you say STUBBORN. Like darn dinkies. Can not tell them anything. I do not think I have found one that you can teach. I think history got things confused and they put man in the moon. But we still lovem

Diazo wrote:

I was just told that it is customary here for the mother to keep a child away from the father for the first 3 years of the child's life . The mother is the only one able to protect the child. Is this true?

This is not true. I'm vietnamese and living in VN for over 20 years and has never heard of this.

Diazo - # 116 No true. Mother's need a break, too. My wife did day shift, I cradled our daughter for hours walking around the living room overnight until she went back to sleep.

ralphnhatrang wrote:

Diazo - # 116 No true. Mother's need a break, too. My wife did day shift, I cradled our daughter for hours walking around the living room overnight until she went back to sleep.

My daughter was born a couple of months premature in UK whilst I was in Germany. Eventually mum and daughter joined me in the Fatherland and ... Daughter she no sleep. Crying and yelling all night long. The only thing that could get her off to sleep was if I took her for a drive around Paderbor, the city where we lived. So I did. Every night at midnight. The first few nights I was stopped by the Bundezpolizei (police), who soon disappeared when I opened the car window and the red faced yelling thing in the baby carry locked into the rear seat belts became visible and audible.

Curiously, she seemed to sleep ok at the weekends.

One week day I came home early one afternoon from the army camp where I worked and on entering the house was met by my (now ex) wife who said "Ssssssssshhhhhhhhhh she's asleep".

No wonder she wouldn't sleep at night, the ex had her sleeping all day.

@vdtuan and Ralph
Thanks. I was just not sure. It sounded odd to me. When we brought the baby home I told her I would stay up at night and care for him and all his needs ( she pumped milk) . But she would not allow it at all. This from a first time mother that I had to teach her how to diaper him, feed him and burp him. She was so stressed everytine I wasnesr him. Of course, I had to bath him, and that was the highlight of my day. But she had to stand guard while I bathed him. It got to where I would lock mysel in my bedroom with him so we could have peaceful time together. Shortly after I started doing that she took him away.
Now I get to see him for one our a week and am locked with a padlick in a room and guarded by her. That turns out to be only 52 hours a year I get to be with him. And it takes me about 16-17 hours of travel time to fly there and back. I set in a Starbucks waiting all day for my allotted time at 4 pm. But I will keep going every week so he knows he has a daddy who lives him and cares for him. Hopefully someday he will want to live in piece with me st least part of the time.
  I put $2,000 on deposit and my credit card at FV hospital and my credit card info at Diamond plaza so he could be cared for, she refuses to take him. I send $100 worth of diapers every two weeks she refuses to pick them up a block from her home. I buy him toys and all his clothing. She throws the toys away, to dangerous. I buy all his clothing and toys from America.
  I think she is a mental case.!!!  Thanks for the input guys.

Diazo wrote:

@vdtuan and Ralph
Thanks. I was just not sure. It sounded odd to me. When we brought the baby home I told her I would stay up at night and care for him and all his needs ( she pumped milk) . But she would not allow it at all. This from a first time mother that I had to teach her how to diaper him, feed him and burp him. She was so stressed everytine I wasnesr him. Of course, I had to bath him, and that was the highlight of my day. But she had to stand guard while I bathed him. It got to where I would lock mysel in my bedroom with him so we could have peaceful time together. Shortly after I started doing that she took him away.
Now I get to see him for one our a week and am locked with a padlick in a room and guarded by her. That turns out to be only 52 hours a year I get to be with him. And it takes me about 16-17 hours of travel time to fly there and back. I set in a Starbucks waiting all day for my allotted time at 4 pm. But I will keep going every week so he knows he has a daddy who lives him and cares for him. Hopefully someday he will want to live in piece with me st least part of the time.
  I put $2,000 on deposit and my credit card at FV hospital and my credit card info at Diamond plaza so he could be cared for, she refuses to take him. I send $100 worth of diapers every two weeks she refuses to pick them up a block from her home. I buy him toys and all his clothing. She throws the toys away, to dangerous. I buy all his clothing and toys from America.
  I think she is a mental case.!!!  Thanks for the input guys.

Eeh, this struck me as something so strange. First, she has no right to separate you from you son. Not unless you have done something terribly wrong like domestic violence. Second, most wife would dream to have husband like you. Vietnamese husband tends not to care for their children that much, some time even completely ignore them and let the wife to take care of everything.
I think you should sit down with your wife and try to understand her concerns or I have missed something

This woman doesn't sound like someone that you can negotiate with. But then again, we are only getting one side of the story.

vdtuan wrote:

I think you should sit down with your wife and try to understand her concerns or I have missed something

Perhaps you have. 

I was going to recommend you read all of Diazo's posts that you can.  Normally one can see all of someones posts listed chronologically by looking on their profile page but that no longer seems to be possible.  That feature seems to be malfunctioning, hopefully only temporarily.

No, the only domestic violence has been on her part. She has hit me 3 times in separate iccasions. Although she no longer does that. Seems here it is acceptable to strike others. She says that here they see a man as a sissy if he is not willing to be struck. And I have only initiated one fight with her and tgat is when she wanted a puppy. Got the puppy. But cone to find out she does not clean up after puppies. I came home and she had walked around it in the kitchen floor all day. I was kind of livid. But I quickly resolved it. I just have the puppy away.
  She is an angina to me. We have not one thing in the world to worry about. But she wakes up every day with a host of problems that are not problems and thus have no solutions. Or I provide her the answer she says she can not understand unless I provide the proof in  Vietnamese. And she has a degree in English linguistics.
  She feat everyone and everything. In fact the first time she hit me was because I hailed a taxi without her permission. In her mind taxi drivers are dangerous and she must vet them.
  But the relies here are very helpful. I have lived in many cultures, but never married into the culture. So I was not sure if she was a fruitcake or the culture here is so different.
  She tested in psychological tests as being a perfectionist and a controller. She said she would speak to a therapist if I found one. Could not find one here so I hired one in the USA. There first meeting she refused to introduce herself. Afterwards her reason was that the lady did not look like a therapist. Then she insisted the next therapist speak VNese. Took me forever to find one, again in the US. But this time she would not speak to this one at all. The therapist was VNese and said she had never had any success with VNese as they think one just sucks it up and deals with it.
I think she is a little off and there is nothing I can do for her or my child.

And I have tried to sit down and speak to her. It does no good. She is a habitual liar and twister of the facts. But I am always willing to try and Ibtry my best to listen. But her worries to me just seem like a person frozen by fear. They say fear comes from a lack of knowledge or understanding.

I have a couple of questions that presume that your statements are reasonably correct.

1) Who is listed as the father on your boy's birth certificate if he has one? Birth Certificates in Vietnam used to be rare and I'm not up to date in how enforced the laws are on Birth Certificates these days.

2) How nasty do you want to get? How nasty do you have the money to be? Vietnam does have Private Investigators and it is quite possible to hire a Vietnamese Policeman to do some off duty investigation.

My oldest daughter said this to me about her husband shortly after they got married, "Daddy, J***** would die to protect me.  That important feeling is pretty well hard wired into the human female DNA. Very few women can actually win a fight against the average man. This is especially true when a woman is pregnant or caring for a very young baby. Sometimes a woman really does need a man who is willing to die protecting her.

My feeling is that you have been a very nice person. But, you haven't showed her or her family the iron behind the kind and pleasant person that you prefer to be . . .

Your wife could actually be nuts. Or she could be just testing your limits in order to determine if you have the iron to protect her or not if the need ever arrived.

My 2 Xu

Many VN women are downright insecure owing lousy upbringings or even ADD without  knowing it.  If we're from a developed nation, we stand by our vows of till death do us part. How many times must we be tested?  There are limits to our patience too. I do realize it's a challenge to 'manage ' a VN woman since it seems they want to manage you instead as through my experience. !

As always 70 year ld your comment are appreciated. Oh I have set my foot down a few times. Thta is not the person I want to be. But the occasion has come up. Her mom came and decided she was running my home and she was deciding what would be done and not be done with my child. We had a come-to-jesus meeting and I tiold her she could not touch the child unless I was present. This all arouse out of my insisting they use S.I.D.S.
( sudden infant death syndrome) risk reduction practices. Grandma, and mom for that matter refused. Then one day the two of them got into a fight and left a 3 month infant lying on a bed upstairs by itself laying with its face in a pillow ( the pillow one of the forbidden things, and leaving the baby unattended and not in a crib bed.
Yes, I think in many ways she is playing a lot of games with me. But I am not really into the juvenile behavior. I am convinced I can not help her. My only concern now it to do the best I an for my child. And in this country there seems very little the father can do. So I will just keep my face in front of him as much as I can. I set up and email for him and I write himeeveryday and share my life with him. I go to the gym and exercise to try to stay healthy in case that day does not come until he is 18. The law says he can decide who he wants to live with at age 9. I know the judges will make things happen for a price, as I have already asked. But I would gladly give a judge $50K to give me custody.
  And back to the beginning and when I began to realize she, at the very least had cognitive thinking issues was when she did not speak to me for two weeks and slept on the couch. She had told me when we first met she had loisy all her other BF because she sulked. So after I learned why she had sulked for two weeks I began researching the cause of severe sulking. The reason by the way she was mad and sulking was because I did not do something she NEVER asked me to do. I was suppose to know as a mind reader that she wanted me to dress her planters wart on her foot. The doctor had told us it needed to be dressed before bed each night, which I did. But she got up to go to work and wanted it dressed. I would have gladly dressed is anytime she wished. I do  not work and have all the time in the world. At any rate this was the reason this time that she did not speak to me for two weeks. Then this happened like clock work every month. May times she would run off and stay at a hotel or some place. Then she demand an emergency fund for her run away times. Mind you she worked and her income did not come into the family budget.
No, I think she just has some serious mental issues. Just sad we had such a wonderful child and she is now going to ruin his future.
And the answers to your questions are: I am listed as the father. I have the money to be very nasty. But I will not go down a path like that, other than as I said helping the judge to agree with me on the custody issue. He has agreed to allow me unfettered custody of the child on weekends once he turns 3 for the sum of $2,000. But as an after thought that seems a bit problematic for me on many fronts. One it is only two days. We live far apart. So I would have to travel, which I do once a week now. Which is no huge issue. But once he starts school he will be in school on Saturdays. As it stands now, I fly down each Wed to see him for an hour and fly back the same night. But most of the time I do not get to see him for an hour. Last time it was only 25 minutes. She always find some reason I can not play with him. So the time and duration keep shrinking. I started being able to see him for 3 hours. Then grandma did not like thast because she must go outdoors to exercise. ( how that affects us I do not know). Then I came at midday. That was not going to be allowed because grandma has to eat lunch. So now we are at 4 pm. But most iof the time she starts bathing him as soon as I arrive, or as soon as I start to play she insists he must eat. Which he never asked for and refuses to cooperate. So I get to set and watch this. She will not allow me to feed him.
  Your comment about dying for reminded me of when the hospital mis-typed my sons blood type. I was incredulous and livid at the same time. I went to the head of the hospital and demanded answers. I go them and some asses were chewed out. So much so that to this day everyone knows me and I get special treatment. But my wife said don't you ever do that again. You are never to act as if you know something here or that you are more educated than who you are speaking to. So much for saving my sons life. Had he needed a blood transfusion he would have died before they knew what was wrong. They had him as an "A" when he is actually an "O".

#127 -  "  I think she is a mental case.!!! "

Yes, I'll go along with that.

LSP123 wrote:

Many VN women are downright insecure owing lousy upbringings or even ADD without  knowing it.  If we're from a developed nation, we stand by our vows of till death do us part. How many times must we be tested?  There are limits to our patience too. I do realize it's a challenge to 'manage ' a VN woman since it seems they want to manage you instead as through my experience. !

The Vietnamese woman that I married(and am still married to) served with me in combat and as a matter of fact her war experiences made my 3 tours in Vietnam look like a child's birthday party. She even got to write the book about her war

"For Two Cows I Ain't Half-Bad: the memoir of a young girl in the Vietnam War" Kindle Edition
by Bac thi Eaton at Amazon.com

@LSP123
  It sure seems like it to me. I have had many friends here who have been with VNese women. They all describe them as STRONG. But I blame the coward men for allowing that BS to happen long ago. But I know Western men here who love that. They are all very passive and mind well. I am not a passive person and when you come to my house you are in MY house. I am the bank in my arrangement, I have far morte education and have many years on my wife, so have the wisdom. I am not going to allow her to rule me. And that is what she wants. Just not going to happen. She thinks she can hold my son out as bait to make me bow to her demands. Not going to happen. She brings no added value AT ALL to my life. I am here only for my son and will do all I can to make sure he has the best.But I am not going to sell my soul or principals.

Too bad therapist and therapy concepts are so foreign to Vietnamese. We only engage therapist in extreme case like autism or some serious mental illness and even that case, we don't think it will solve anything.
The thing about taxi drivers is really delusional, they are not 'dangerous'. Okay they may overcharge you if you look like foreigner but so what.
I think you could just keep on being nice with her and wish for the best. Not much you can do also.

Diazo wrote:

@LSP123
  It sure seems like it to me. I have had many friends here who have been with VNese women. They all describe them as STRONG. But I blame the coward men for allowing that BS to happen long ago. But I know Western men here who love that. They are all very passive and mind well. I am not a passive person and when you come to my house you are in MY house. I am the bank in my arrangement, I have far morte education and have many years on my wife, so have the wisdom. I am not going to allow her to rule me. And that is what she wants. Just not going to happen. She thinks she can hold my son out as bait to make me bow to her demands. Not going to happen. She brings no added value AT ALL to my life. I am here only for my son and will do all I can to make sure he has the best.But I am not going to sell my soul or principals.

I appreciated your comments as they gave me more to think about.

70 years old wrote:

"For Two Cows I Ain't Half-Bad: the memoir of a young girl in the Vietnam War" Kindle Edition
by Bac thi Eaton at Amazon.com

I have read the book and it is very good, but better lay off the advertising.

70 years old wrote:

I appreciated your comments as they gave me more to think about.

I am surprised that more posters here have not noticed what you may have just now seemed to notice.  Diazo's wife may be no angel but he is clearly as much a control freak as she is, as evidenced by his last post as well as others he has posted in the past. 

Even on other topics like dealing with tradesmen he takes a "my way or the highway" approach.  He may be right but his clearly combative method does not solve problems.  There is also more than a hint of "money talks" in his opinion as well.  Again that may be true but it is not how you "win friends and influence people" to borrow another phrase.

Here is something more amusing to think about.  He said that she has a degree in Linguistics and English.  Maybe she was simply disappointed by Diazo's atrocious spelling and grammar.   

THIGV wrote:

70 years old wrote:

I appreciated your comments as they gave me more to think about.

I am surprised that more posters here have not noticed what you may have just now seemed to notice.  Diazo's wife may be no angel but he is clearly as much a control freak as she is, as evidenced by his last post as well as others he has posted in the past. 

Even on other topics like dealing with tradesmen he takes a "my way or the highway" approach.  He may be right but his clearly combative method does not solve problems.  There is also more than a hint of "money talks" in his opinion as well.  Again that may be true but it is not how you "win friends and influence people" to borrow another phrase.

Here is something more amusing to think about.  He said that she has a degree in Linguistics and English.  Maybe she was simply disappointed by Diazo's atrocious spelling and grammar.   

You make very good points. The issue for me is that it is very difficult to make accurate judgements in a format like this one. Another issue for me is the fact that I see little if anything of a "Vietnamese" problem. What I see is a specific issue among very specific individuals.

70 years old wrote:

Another issue for me is the fact that I see little of a "Vietnamese" problem. What I see is a specific issue among very specific individuals.

Absolutely.

That is why I was asking the questioned I posed. Is it a cultural thing or is it an individual thing. My wife says it is cultural. Evidence points otherwise. Cognitive thinking errors can be corrected. But only if one wishes to.
  I try to ignore THIGV ignorant assessments of everyone on here. I must admit I am the worst quality control editor of my own missives. But I don't get to stressed about it. I see many that get caught by the spellchecker function. You would thing as great as he is about reading between the lines he could make heads or tales out of it. He seems to be able to follow.
  Yeah I am a bad ass when I hire someone to work. They are more than willing to pay veto my terms when we make the agreement. And I usually pay them well. But I am not going to go behind them and clean up more paint then they put on the wall. I provide them with drop clothes, rags and everything they need. So do it. And they always have the choice to leave. I never lick them in. Yup, my way or the highway. My home had a sign that says no smoking. That means no smoking. If you feel you must smoke that is great. But not in my home. I imagine THIGV  USA marshmallow that lets everyone walk all over him. Sure sounds like it by his writing here.
  As it being about money. That is far from the truth. I out all my real estate holding in the USA in a living trust for my wife. I put her on all my bank accounts and brokerage accounts. She had one of all my credit cards and d bit cards. I gave her a spreadsheet of all my income and assets before we married. I agreed to her terms on paying her mom each month and money for a home for her here, before we married. She has worked most of the time and I have no clue nor any desire to know how much money she makes. I have no access to any of her bank accounts and do not want or need it. She says she does not do housexwork so I hired maids. If I am such a bad employees then why have the same maids been with me since I came here. None of my friends can get a good nadecand are amazed T how good my maids are. My wife does not do lsundry or  or ironing so I do all the laundry and ironing.
  As for my wife's linguistics degree it seems it is line most others here. She has it but can not fully understand or speak English. She can not go to an English speaking doctor because she can not understand them. But she goes to a Vietnamese doctor and  does not know what to ask or is not allowed to ask. If I had the choice to go to a doctor I could not understand or a doctor who knew what he/she was doing and did not need my help I would choose the later. But I can see they fe safer amongst their own. And if you know squat about the sciences or human anatomy then I can understand.
  But my wife is so risk averse it matters not who she sees. She is afraid of hotel managers. Afraid what they will think of us.
  So THIGV I could care Las about your worthless opinions. I am not here to denigrate my wife. Just to try and find out what makes her tic. I know she means well. But everything in her path is ruined. I have yet to hear if a VNEse person that did not go to see or speak to their mother for ten years. All because when asked to help her buy a house her mom said she could not do so at the time. Yeah, maybe it is about money. But I have known that for some while

@ 70yearold
Thanks for the input. I was just trying to figure outifitwas just two individuals or was it actually true cultural issues e.g my question about fathers not be allowed contact with their child. Is that individual or is it as I was told cultural. The answers given here indicate that it is not cultural. AndI hope most of my other question stayed in the realm. I think, given the answers that it is an  individual thing that must be handled in an individual way. Yes, it is always hard in this forum to determine what the true issues are.
  Yes, if you hear my wife's side of the story she truly believes she is correct I think. And honestly I can not say she is wrong. For example people have survived a long time here without knowing the : food grouos or what constitutes a balanced diet. Yes, Ibwant my son to have something g in all 3 food groups and a balanced diet. But she is in his care. It is her choice. All I can do is try to tell her and educate her. Yes, I can afford to have my child get all his infant vaccinations. And IbwNt him to have them. No matter the facts I present to her she refuses to get him his shots. I lived through the times of polio, I see the polio here. I do not want that for my son. Yes, I wanted hm to have a good education and go to university in America. But she does not wan that. He is In her care and I must except that. Yes, it hurts. I wanted him to have his birth given right to his US citizenship. She does not want that and so I must except that part which I can not do. The best I can do for him is get his Certificate of Birth Abroad and I have done that.
  Now THIGV you can edit this.

@Diazo

About the only thing that I have made up my mind on is that it is essentially personal. You do see similar issues in any culture that I've been involved in.

I have read that the Cherokee and some other American tribes and Nations structured families differently and perhaps it made these sort of issues less problematic as the mother and her brothers/clan raised the children with little ability for the father to intervene. Though, by the 1800's the traditional Cherokee family system was already changing to a more European system.

Sorry that i show the thread has evolved. It certainly was not intended to get to wife bashing or finger pointing. My only interest was to find what in the mess is cultural and what is personal. Before we married I told her we would be faced with many cultural issues, and from time-to-time we would have to both bend. But much, if not most of what she has told me was cultural others have said it is not. I am not trying to save a marriage. It can not be saved. Like I think I said before this is my 69 country. I have seen many cultures, been involved with many cultures. But never married into a culture. And boy in this marriage it has been one heck of an experience. But I am hearing that that experience is not all cultural. So I thanks all for their input.

And BTW 70yearold, thanks for the book info, I must get a copy. Not to worry about sharing it with us. It only offends a very view. You have yourself a good catch there. A lucky man indeed.

And by the way. Cognitive thinking errors are not a mental illness. Like my wife, they often come from childhood upbringing and usually are a misinterpretation of the information given. In my wifes case she was pushed to be perfect in everything she did. She understood this to mean that to be loved and excepted by her mom she had to be perfect. There in lies the thinking error. But in the case of perfection this morphs into controlling behavior. Because you know quite soon that you just can not turn in 100% all the time, you learn to control your environment. So no one can see your less than perfect performance you keep everyone's eyes away from you. This can lead to plain nasty rude behavior. That the two couple together lead to OCD. The professional will tell you if you run into someone like this, run away as fast as you can as they do not change. The reason they do not change they have become the king of the castle and rule everyone. Being a ruler and giving up that power is hard to do, and very scary.

Diazo wrote:

And by the way. Cognitive thinking errors are not a mental illness. Like my wife, they often come from childhood upbringing and usually are a misinterpretation of the information given. In my wifes case she was pushed to be perfect in everything she did. She understood this to mean that to be loved and excepted by her mom she had to be perfect. There in lies the thinking error. But in the case of perfection this morphs into controlling behavior. Because you know quite soon that you just can not turn in 100% all the time, you learn to control your environment. So no one can see your less than perfect performance you keep everyone's eyes away from you. This can lead to plain nasty rude behavior. That the two couple together lead to OCD. The professional will tell you if you run into someone like this, run away as fast as you can as they do not change. The reason they do not change they have become the king of the castle and rule everyone. Being a ruler and giving up that power is hard to do, and very scary.

Going to school in San Diego in the 1950's gave me a taste of what you describe. I rebelled and went my on way, winding up as a happily retired US Army Sargent E-6. As to THIGV's caution about advertising my wife's book. This is a moderated forum and using the forum  to sell products  can get your fingers (metaphorically) whacked by the moderators. Note, THIGV snuck in a pitch for the book while "cautioning" me.

I know the issue about about the book and how the moderators operate. I, and probably all who read this forum see that you " Pitch" your wife's book. I could care less what he says. I leave the policing to the police. But it is an open forum and I think we all know what that entails.

And BTW 70 year old. I think
Perhaps it is accepted because the book is inline with the culture and expat life in VN. I might be wrong. Can't see how a mid had missed all this time.

Diazo wrote:

She is a habitual liar and twister of the facts. But I am always willing to try and Ibtry my best to listen. But her worries to me just seem like a person frozen by fear. They say fear comes from a lack of knowledge or understanding.

I had a similar problem with my VN ex which is from Saigon.
I figured out that part of those "lies", they dont see as lies. (Even when it's clearly a lie.)
It fits with the decription in another thread that they want to save face. Also, she said "I can choose who I love"

We talked about it, I thought we solved the issue and she agreed with me. On the next occasion where that topic came up, it was like we never talked about it before and she had her old point of view.

I think, she had a Bipolar Disorder. She was like half angel, half devil. I know that some people here decribed that when some VN girls are angry, you will think they hate you.
She was the reason I registered in this forum. The angel half was wonderful, but the other half was horrible. For example, she was like 30 minutes late and didnt say sorry. No problem for me. I was about 10 minutes late and said sorry. She freaked out.
Basically, no one could handle her, not even her parents. She lived with some of her aunties (all not married). We were closely before marriage, all documents were done and she was supposed to move here. Then she broke it off, because she thought I would betray her with my exgirlfriend. Which I didnt, I even accepted to put her name on my bank accounts (I know a mistake after what I read here), gave her online access already, send her documents about my income, she wanted to live in Germany (fine with me as well), she met my family in Germany, I stopped my plans to study MBA for her (because of income), met her family, asked for her hand and had the "normal" complete family dinner, and several other things.

This was really the saddest thing in my life (and I experienced a lot for my age of 31, not as much as the war veterans here of course). I was ready to move the world for her. The worst part is, I just couldnt understand why. She quit her job in VN (worked at a bank, about 800USD salary) to come to Germany and also did a lot for me. She asked me to send the things, clothes etc., which she left here, to her aunty which also lives in Germany. Then she wrote me an email asking me if it was my plan to give her HIV or another STD and to kill her that way. FYI: I dont have AIDS and we didnt have sex (I respected her wish to marry first, we were together about 1,5 years).
I thought her problems might be caused by her upbring (beaten by parents and siblings) and I tried to show her that she can trust me and my family and can always count on me and them.
I got some grey hair, lost weight and so on. All why asking myself why why why...
It just happened this mai.

I noticed, I cant change her and need to give up thinking about why. Otherwise, it would destroy myself. I still love her and hope she is fine, whatever she does now. Im not an angel and I have my flaws like everyone, but I would have never betrayed her and like one other poster said above, I would have died for her to protect her.

Diazo - I really feel sad for you.  Based on my experiences, I see individual issues, not cultural.  The things you experience, I have never experienced and honestly, the opposite.  I never would have let my relationship get as far as yours because one thing I committed upfront was the fact money would not be a topic of discussion or something to negotiate.  My wife never asked and I never offered.  She actually brought it up and said "I know money is so sensitive of an issue so you do not need to worry, I understand".  So lucky for me, both of us were looking for a life partner and we thank God and Buddha everyday for being so lucky. 

BTW - some of the things you describe are not limited to VN.  The same things happen here in the USA and even on a larger scale (due to population).  For example, most people do not realize that the reported cases of domestic violence are comparable of women abusing men and vice versa, but if you turn on the TV, nobody would believe it.

Thanks VNDREAMER
   You always think you do all the due diligence and prepare the best before going into a relationship. But sometimes things do not turn out as planned. Habitual liars can be very good at what they do. I just feel so terrible for putting my son through this. But it is what it is. And no doubt personal issues know no boundaries and do not seem where on the globe they raise their head.  I feel more comfortable now knowing that the cultural differences she tries to hang her hat on are not true.

Lies and Vietnamese is a complex subject that involves individuals, culture, history, politeness and common decency.

No decent person would walk into the room of a horribly disfigured and on the verge of death relative, friend or even enemy and tell them how terrible they look. A decent person would say some 'white lie' like,"You are looking so much better."

No rational person would walk into a 'used car lot' and expect the 'used car salesman' to give you an honest and correct appraisal of the junker that he is trying to sell you. But if you are a serious buyer, the used car salesman may give you honest information in order to get the junker off his lot where it is using up valuable space.

Still, a Vietnamese Doctor that I deeply respect and trust with the care of my wife, once said, "So and So lies a lot." The Doctor then told me an absolutely obvious lie. My wife agreed with me later when we discussed the matter that the Doctor was warning me that what Vietnamese say is sometimes a lie.

In many cultures, politeness is considered a higher virtue than honesty. This was very obvious in 1970's Vietnam. While elements of this remain in todays Vietnam, I find the people in today's Vietnam much more 'honest' than the Vietnamese in the 1970's.

All in all, except for those who lie to take advantage and cheat other people and those people are found all over the world, the extensive "white lies" told by the ordinary Vietnamese are a cultural kindness that should be appreciated.

My 2 Xu

It does seem to me that the "save face" concept here is a very mind boggling thing to us folks from the West. I Do not know how better to say it. From my experience with it, they simply can not realize they made a mistake , apologize, and move on. I have seen two different ways in which they deal with it. One) They simply let the issue die a natural death w/o discussing it. This may take months, and eventually the ice thaws in the relationship, and all begin speaking to each other again . Two) They craft an elaborate web of lies that take away all blame for their part in the issue.

@ Darwin123
  Glad you found out what was going on and were able to move on. I will too, just wish it would not have affected an innocent child. Good luck to you.

Diazo wrote:

It does seem to me that the "save face" concept here is a very mind boggling thing to us folks from the West. I Do not know how better to say it. From my experience with it, they simply can not realize they made a mistake , apologize, and move on. I have seen two different ways in which they deal with it. One) They simply let the issue die a natural death w/o discussing it. This may take months, and eventually the ice thaws in the relationship, and all begin speaking to each other again . Two) They craft an elaborate web of lies that take away all blame for their part in the issue.

In most cases they do realize that they made the mistake. The issue is "face." Going back to the 1970's, this seemed to be an even bigger issue in Japan where I was stationed for a bit over two years than in Vietnam. As to these days, I have no current knowledge of Japan. But, at least to me, Vietnam has shown serious improvement over the decades.

From my readings of European History, the monarchal ruled European countries had the same sort of issues. Note, that is 'book larnin.'