Cultural differences between Vietnam and the West?

Your feet have to be both big and furry.

A couple of the ghosts I met didn't appear late at night.  The first one I met when I was 4 years old was a woman.  She appeared then disappeared in front of my eyes in the late morning/early afternoon.  The last one I met was a pre-teen girl who rode a large bicycle (her feet didn't touch the pedals) at around 8pm.

And the three ghosts (must have been in the same family) whose voices I heard but whose appearances I had never seen were always there during siesta hours, several times a week for years.

Did you find that frightening?

Diazo wrote:

.... I rarely see children outdoors here playing...

Whoa, I've been living in a different Vietnam. I love seeing all the kids in Asia. In D5 there are kids everywhere. Riding bikes in traffic. Roaming in the market. In the D8 hems, it is 3/4 kids.

And that is a cultural difference coming from Calif where helicopter parents don't let them out of sight. Forget walking to school, or going to the mall after. Forget playing in the park or exploring the woods. Parents have been guilted by the news that if they let the kids out of sight, a pedophile will surely get them. Just more fake news, scare-tactic headlines to boost advertising. Cause children to become indoor cave animals.

No, Ralph, I never did, could be that all the ghosts I met looked like normal people. 

The first ghost was dressed in white áo bà ba (http://a9.vietbao.vn/images/vn999/62/20 … uyen-7.jpg) but with white pants.  She disappeared on the middle on a bridge while I was a few steps behind her.  (I was following her because she was very pretty and I wanted to see where she lived.)

The pre-teen girl mumbled to herself in a language I didn't understand, and while her feet didn't touch the pedals, the bicycle still moved along.  She also disappeared in front of me.

The three ghosts (one man and two woman) talked in Southern dialect.  I could hear the noise of a quạt nan (http://admin.souvenirvietnam.vn/Web/Res … uatco1.jpg) moving back and forth.  Their voices seemed to come from the inside the wall of our house, but they couldn't be because my father bought the lot then had the house built from the ground up in reinforced concrete.

Other ghosts did silly things such as locking me in the shower room, or locking the shower room from the inside (no one was inside), turning the light on and off, etc.

One ghost left a bloody hand-print on the outside corner of the mosquito net on my oldest brother's bed, and a couple drops of blood on the bed mat.  I didn't see it though.  Brother showed both to the rest of the family, then burned them before I woke up.

The next day, mother called in the monks to burn incense and pray.  A few nights later, a boy came to her asking her to take him home.  He took her to, in her dream, the front garden of a house that did not look like ours but might be ours, if that makes sense (not the house father built).  She spent the day walking around the house trying to match the spot in the dream to the layout of our house.  Then she had people dug up a spot in the living room (destroying the pretty tiles).  Underneath it was a child casket.  She held a ceremony and took it to a temple in Thu Duc, had it buried there.  That was the true end of that ghost.  We never learned about the blood.

I guess we should start another thread on superstition and ghosts. I get notification that someone has responded to the cultural differences not to learn we are still in superstitions and ghosts.
  When I think of cultural differences I think more how we act in normal everyday life at home, work and In public. But I suppose superstitions could be put in that category.
  But I was thinking more along the line of the hierarchy of family, say, here and respect given though perhaps not earned. Instead of the West where respect is not a given, but earned. The former not allowing for much individualistic thinking. I understand the basic consent here. But boy does it leave a lot to be desired.
  Another seemingly odd difference is when you go to a home in the West you are greeted and welcomed by those you cone to visit. Here it is the reverse. The visitor greets the visited, and not always returned. This is the first country I have ever been in that is this way.

Yogi has come to the conclusion that the Vietnamese don't believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Look at their smiles.....if they thought the Tooth fairy was paying money for missing teeth ........eek.     

On the upside....there wouldn't be as many of those annoying "selfie" camera sticks around.

Sorry, Diazo.  I'll stop with my ghost stories.

And you remind me of another odd issue Yogi. I have taken I do not know how many Vietnamese for dental cleanings and exams. All were told they had a mouthful of cavities. Some made appointments to have them filled.... but very few. However, none ever returned to have the work done.
Is rotten teeth a status symbol here. I know there are many elderly ladies that chew the red berries in order to dye all their rotten teeth red.
  It seems like they just can not resist having their children w/ a mouthful  of decayed teeth.
  And that does not even address the periodontal  diseased gums at all.
  What is it? Are they afraid of dentist. Is their some superstition like that of many countries that if you take their photograph you steal their soul.
  I told my wife I wanted my son to have sealants put on his teeth when the time came. No way. Perfectly painless procedure. Baffles me.

One thing I find amusing is that a lot of Vietnamese will NOT ask a stranger for directions, information etc.   Even more so , if that other person is of a lower/presumed  social status.   

I've encountered it a lot.....and I seriously don't like it. 

They must be of the belief that if they need to ASK for directions etc...the other person will think they are dumb.    It must be this saving face bulls..t.

They won't ask for advice...(money they'll ask😀) but useful info they could use , they don't need.  Also, a lot will never admit to a mistake or correct it .   

My first ever Boss years ago said  never be  afraid to ask me how to do things. I thought I was annoying him, but he said he'd rather take 5 minutes to explain something and get the job done properly , than spend a day pulling something apart to rectify the problem later.

Here, the attitude is " near enough is good enough" .   

And we all know , it's live for today.  The forward planning doesn't seem important.    Building things to last.....that's rare here.  It's all slap it together as cheaply & quickly as they can .   

A foreign guy here building a house sacked TWO work crews because they refused to listen to him . Simply wouldn't do the job properly his way.  It meant MORE money for them , because it would take longer , but they are too stupid & stubborn to figure that out. 

It's not a crime to admit you made a mistake, but here you'd think it was.

With "Industry 4 " just around the corner , that attitude had better change otherwise they'll miss the boat .

And the straight forward frankness here as opposed to the West. They have no reservation in saying you look nice for a fat person or something similar. I must say I kind of like it the way it is here as opposed to the West where they will lie to your face and say I love your new hairstyle or the new color. When they truly do not.
  Not sure if it was ever intentional but they often see birth marks and a nasty grill or buck teeth as an attribute. Maybe it is their kind way of making those less fortunate feel like they hit the gene pool lottery. But it too is kind of nice and refreshing. In the West, especially with the young we can make them feel just terrible if they are not runway quality models or the don't qualify as a chippendale dancer with the cut abs and the perfect set of teeth.

Boy Yogi you are walking amongst the same people I see every day here. I thought maybe I was just jaded. Another thing I learned and you kind of alluded to. I did not learn it until I got my tail dressed down by my wife in front of everyone.
  I had just learned from the dumb ass medical staff only by chance tgat they mid-typed my infant so. M and the witch went to the nursery and the had my child on blue light therapy. I knew exactly why and told my wife. Of course, she never believes or trust me. So she asked the nursery tech. Who replied that the blue light therapy was because the baby blood type and the mothers did not match. In truth that was not correct as blue light therapy is due to reduced bilirubin count....very normal in babies.
  At any rate I told tge tech, get the doctor I want to see my child's blood type. Sure enough they had him typed as an A+. My wife and I ate both O+ and there is no way we could produce an "A". Oh I was pissed.
   I went straight to the head of the hospital and told them I wanted to speak to all concerned. My wife pleaded with me to just let it go.
  So I explained to them all tgat this was not possible. They agreed and the head of the lab explained how the error occurred. The lab protocol for reporting out results were terrible. One ran the test( fine) , tge handed to another to record (fine), then to another to compare the results reported to those gained from the test( all fine up till then). Tgen on the midnight shift a sleepy worked took the results tgat had been logged into a narrow lined small print notebook and reported the results out to the reauestor. What had happened in her sleepy slumber she got off one line and everyone after that was reported out wrong. Had I not caught the mistake many a child could have died had they gone out into life thinking they were one type yet were not. Instant death if the ever needed to be transfused .
  Tge ass chewing I got was that in this country no matter how much you know, or how educated you are you always play dumb and let the other person  feel as tbougb they are more educated. I told my wife I did not spend a kings tandon to get a degree to act as if I were stupid. Her suggested approach to solving this situation was as follows:
  Go to the doctor or tech and tell them me and my wife are both O+ is there any chance my child could experience more illness s in life if he too were not O+. And let it go at that .
  Sorry for the long story.

I can not tell you how many workers I have had to run ifc because they have their way and that is the only way. Even when it comes to smoking in a non-smoking house. I simply do not allow it. And they continue. Even hiding to smoke. I walk them off the property and do not allow them back.
  Can you spell stubborn. They are unreal and unteachable.

Diazo wrote:

I know there are many elderly ladies that chew the red berries in order to dye all their rotten teeth red.

Don't know about red berries, but women from my mother's generation (she was born in 1913) chewed areca nuts that were rolled in betel leaves.  Red juice was the outcome of that combination, but by itself, neither ingredient was red. 

That particular combination did an incredible job of teeth cleaning and strengthening.  She never had to visit a dentist (not due to fear or ignorance, since all of her children visited dentists yearly) and she could crack crabs like eating bread.  Her teeth were black but shiny, and she did not have one single dental or oral problem until the day she died in 2000.

This is a photo of betel leaves and areca nuts:  http://hinhanh.gamechocon.com/Thu_Vien_ … au_cau.jpg

Betel leaves and areca nuts (trầu cau) are very important symbol of good marriage, and take central place on the marriage tray which they groom bring to the bride's family as part of the offerings:  http://galaroyale.com.vn/wp-content/upl … f15b10.jpg

That is exactly what they chew from I am told. I wrongly assumed they were red as the result is a red nasty looking mouth. Have yet to see any who had the red teeth have nice beautiful shinny teeth. Maybe if I drank a few 333. Indeed, I have seen few with nice teeth here.

Diazo wrote:

I can not tell you how many workers I have had to run ifc because they have their way and that is the only way. Even when it comes to smoking in a non-smoking house. I simply do not allow it. And they continue. Even hiding to smoke. I walk them off the property and do not allow them back.
  Can you spell stubborn. They are unreal and unteachable.

Its not just Vietnam. My interpreter in Laos would only translate what he thought I should say and would sometimes come to work stinking of booze after lunch, despite my absolute prohibition on drinking alcohol during the working day - bombs and booze don't mix!

I also caught him smoking in the car whilst we were carrying explosives. He hd to go and, he went. With a push from me.

In 1913 I am sure not many dentist existed here. I too probably would have never had to visit a dentist. It was not until I did that I learned I had a cavity. And InGe tgat crap they chew provably does ward off a lot of bacteria, plaque and other humans as well. Gosh I thought being married to a smoker would be bad. Can not imagine sticking my tongue down onw of those red throats!!!😀 I always thought they  may be having that time of the month from a different end here. Nasty!!!

I rather suspect that trait is rather common in Asia. Having lived in Hapan thought it was not so. They complied with everything said. Problem there was don't try to have a new boss change the rules. Everyone e knows rules do not change.... to them.

Then there is "YEAH" then another " YEAH". What the heck does that mean.... I see you standing there you big stupid S.O.B. ! Never have figured out that one. It always seems to end up meaning I have no clue what your talking about. I suppose that is not culture though.

Yes, well, in Vietnam a couple of years ago, I asked  my Vn LHD to translate my questions to one of our labourers, regarding his absence that day from work. She duly translated my q and without waiting for a response said" What you have to understand about Vn culture is that if a worker is told by his grandmother that he doesn't have to go to work that day because she has something she wants the worker to do instead, the worker doesn't have to go to work that day."

My response was to ask her to translate my comments to the effect that he would forfeit a days pay and receive a written warning about his time keeping, since he had already been verbally warned for being late on other occasions. If he was late, or didn't turn up again he would receive a final written warning, after which there would be no more warnings, just the boot.

I also informed my LHD that I was not employing the workers grandmother and that because he hadn't let us know that he wouldn't be coming in to work that day, he was in breach of contract and could be released from employment forthwith, but I was being lenient in giving him a warning.

And having said all that, my next interpreter in Vn, didn't actually speak English and I had to buy him an electronic pocket translator.

Diazo wrote:

In 1913 I am sure not many dentist existed here. I too probably would have never had to visit a dentist. It was not until I did that I learned I had a cavity.

Gosh I thought being married to a smoker would be bad. Can not imagine sticking my tongue down onw of those red throats!!!😀 I always thought they  may be having that time of the month from a different end here. Nasty!!!

She was born in '13, but her first child was born in '33 and her last, '56.  And she lived until 2000.   

There were always dentists in the country even before she was born.  Université de l’Indochine started training doctors, dentists, and pharmacists in Hanoi in '07, and Faculté de Médecine et de Pharmacie started accepting students in Saigon in '48.  Since we lived in Hanoi until '54 and Saigon afterward, I assume she didn't have any problem finding dentists in either city. 

In our family, we all had a physical check up with doctors and a dental check up with dentists once a year, starting at age 11 when we entered high school (Vietnam at the time called grade 6 to 12 high school.)  Perhaps we're different from most Vietnamese, perhaps not.  I never asked my friends whether they went to the doctors or dentists so I don't know now how common or how rare our practice was back then.  One thing I can tell you though, that all of us have had excellent health except oldest brother who suffered ulcer from a very stressful job, until 1/3 of his stomach was cut off and he changed career.

It certainly looked gross, I agree with you on that, but that's not what we're talking about here, is it?  It's about people who chewed to cover their rotten teeth, and I explained that betel and areca were actually very good for teeth.

I wouldn't know about kissing betel chewers.  I don't think father kissed mother even though they had 7 children together.  It could have been that he didn't like her healthy black teeth, or he didn't love her at all, or kissing was not part of most marriages back then.  I didn't want to know about their private life so I didn't ask.

BTW, it baffled me that even though the juice was red, the teeth were black.  Is that how certain combination of chemicals work?  (If I sound ignorant about chemistry, it's because I am.)

What a funny story EOD. I can believe it. It is that heirchy at work. I tell you what when my wife's grandma speaks people listen. Sounds like that old stock brokers motto. Oh but your from the U.K. Oh well we had a proninste saying in he USA like that. I would have fired the toad on the spot and leg grandma feed him.

My house staff when first hired misunderstood the job discription. They thought my home was a call center and I was paying them to talk on the phone. I told them the first time I caught them  the phone to leave it somewhere else. And if I heard the phone wrong or them on it they were fired. Never happened again.

Diazo wrote:

The certainly is no basis in fact that a mother is not capable of being out of the home after birth or is to weak. And there certainly is no basis for an infant to avoid germs etc. Ineed the contrary is true. The more germs and bacteria they are the exposed to the faster there immune system developes. Moreover, if a mother breast feeds the infant gets the immunities in the mothers system. But you are correct this is exactly what they think. But then to they do not realize your red blood cells are replaced every 90. They also feel that a cold is caused by, you got it, azcokd and not a virus. And many of the so called doctors here are no better informed.
  But it will take time and a better education system to make them aware of so many things.

Your initial observation of the "west" versus Vietnam, is a massive over generalization of the west.  Every "positive" attribute you attributed to the "west" I know of exceptions throughout the USA, let alone Europe, Canada and Mexico and wherever else you think the "west" is.

The comment above about new born is not wrong, but totally out of context.  You should keep in mind that these cultural habits, superstitions, etc are based on hundreds and thousands of years of life and thus have a basis n fact. Sure for an American middle, upper class woman who does't need to walk anyplace and probably not work for a while, it won't hurt her to go out.  But in a society that everyone had to work ALL the time just to live, it's a whole different story.

Im still waiting for someone, either local or foreign, to explain the net on the kids head whilst riding. I have put it down to following the leader, just like those wrap-around skirts you see girls wearing at night whilst wearing a pair of jeans. Doing something because others are doing it is very popular here.

@Wxx3
I think you are applying your own views to what I said. I have yet to say one way is wrong or the other is right, one is positive or one is negative.. I rather thought most could understand that most options are a generlaization no matter what position one takes. But when it comes to science or medical facts thenmtself I will go with science and the facts. I do not know how confusing the " West" can be. But I rather suspect most who have read it come to the same conclusion. It has long been a term used to describe cultures e.g. ME culture Eastern ( or Asian culture), Western culture, and Latin culture. And it is not to denigrate any culture but to compare the differences. If you have not been around the world then I can understand your confusion.

It to keep the high speed mosquitos away I think. There are some odd  things. Just came from visiting my one year old son. The mother  will not allow the child to touch anything or do anything ( germs). She would have felt right at home with Howard Hughs . I built a tunnel out of lined up chairs so he could crawl through to his daddy on the other side. The mother threw a shit toddy fit. He might bump his head on the chair. I think mom bumped her head when they dropped her at birth!!! Children live to learn spatial concepts, over , under, and textures, rough, smooth, cold and warm. But they keep them in a cacoon. It is such a shame as the brain neurons  are fusing now and it is done through these experience in life.
  But what drives me bonkers,  they will go to such extremes to protect children from germs etc. But they will ride with a toddler on a motorbike standing up, no headgear. If the driver had to swerve there is no way someone is going to keep that child protected with their hands on the infants knees.
  I am not trying to bash anyone or the culture. I love it here and enjoy my life. But as in every country,  I have been in (68) , there are things that are odd. Especially in my mother country!!!

@Wxx3
  I believe if you re-read some of what I wrote I referred to Judeo-Christian teachings etc. This, in most definitions is the basis of the use of Western culture. Indeed, most cultural definition is based on the dominate religion of the area. Hope that helps you better understand the conversation and thought process.

colinoscapee wrote:

Im still waiting for someone, either local or foreign, to explain the net on the kids head whilst riding.

I haven't seen it (or maybe didn't pay attention.)  Can you describe it a bit more?

It is designed to be a mosquito net. I think that is the purpose for which they use it

Another interesting one is the sending out of ladies panties to be laundered. They will never cone back. Men's they have no problem with.

Diazo wrote:

Another interesting one is the sending out of ladies panties to be laundered. They will never cone back. Men's they have no problem with.

Well now that's something that, without descending into the arcane, I vaguely noticed a similar occurrence. When I first came to Vietnam in 2000, there would always be ladies underwear drying in the wash rooms of any small restaurant, bar or coffee bar. Sometimes you had to push your way through lines of hanging damp nylon.

All that has gone now, thank God (other deities are available) and most bogs in those places are now clear of hanging wet stuff.

Real life cultural difference occurred with me this morning. Hired painters to paint the house. They said they would be here at 7:30. At 7:45 I took off to take care of other business. At 8;15 they contacted me and wanted to know where "I " was. Like I was at fault. I told them what I expected, and if they could not do it then they should move on. Bet they are late tomorrow as well. But tomorrow they will not have a job. Of course, when late they started offering the excuses. We had to get our equipment ( a ladder). Great get you equipment and tell me what time you will arrive with your equipment. Do not tell me you will be here and then your someplace getting equipment.

You don't think this story could have happened anywhere in the US?  Painters are generally the lowest regarded of the skilled trades and their performance reflects that.  It doesn't take a lot of capital, or skill, to become a painting contractor in the US.  This is not to excuse what they did but I wouldn't expect Vietnam or the US to be any different.

Diazo wrote:

It is designed to be a mosquito net. I think that is the purpose for which they use it

Mosquito net for the head?   

Again, Commie thinking, only ONE way and what the Party says..
Secondly, there are no rules and no laws to 'obey'!  Signs are just there for show, no one follows them!
If they do not follow your instructions, what can you do?? Business wise,, are you going to SUE?

When we moved into this house my wife organised some cupboards and drawers to be made from imported American white oak, by a local company. The owner of the wood working company came and took measurements and agreed simple designs for furniture for 3 rooms which included TV tables with drawers and so on.

They were delivered 6 weeks late.

When they arrived they looked like they had been made by a junior school woodwork class after a heavy drinking session. Measurements were wrong, there were holes drilled where holes shouldn't be, the drawers didn't fit ....

I refused to accept them. The company owner spent a long time trying to get my wife to accept the shoddy work. A bad mistake as my wife is meticulous about quality and contractual obligations.

The owner of the company took them back to fix all the problems - I had take photographs - and he delivered them again some weeks later. There was no change whatsoever. My 9 year old grand son could have done better with his toy wood working set.

I refused to accept the shoddy goods. The goods stayed in our house for another five weeks as the owner of the company refused to take them back and demanded payment. I asked my wife to advise him that if the goods were not taken away by mid day on a certain date, I would burn them.

A truck duly turned up and removed the goods but we still received phone calls from the company owner demanding payment. So we call blocked his phone number and told our security that neither him, his men or his vehicles were allowed onto the estate.

It was some months before the phone calls stopped, from other phone numbers (which we also blocked) and some of them were quite aggressive.

His attitude was : "You are a foreigner, you can afford to pay, so pay me".

My attitude was. Take a hike.

You may win the battle but do beware, as it's really a jungle here and cong ans are not known to help foreigners!

Not one ounce of comparison between painters here and in the US. Indeed. Time means nothing here to anyone and in the US it does. Often time standing in the unemployment line. Having employed thousands I know thy would last no time if they acted this way working for me. Just a cutu thing. Latin countries are mostly the same. Indeed, America is rather anal to many when it comes to punctuality. But time is money, and a lot of it there.

I have found the contrary to be true in my town. On two occasions I had to call the police. They stood by me every once of the way. Might not be true in every city here. But I sure know what can make it true in every city. They once walked the guy off in handcuffs. Told him if he ever came near my obscene again he would be jailed. Sure had the whole neighborhood in my house though watching them get their arse jacked up . Loved it.
  The workers here now want to lunch w/o speaking to me at all. I go to the gym for an hour and a half at 12:30 and I intended to tell them to break then. They sent me a text with a haha and said they work from this time to this time. I wrote back haha....  you work for me. They agreed to my schedule!!!😀👍