Names

Makes them feel like they've upgraded their social status.

I remember entering high school all my asian friends adopted an English name except for me. I'm proud of my Vietnamese background. Not saying all that adopt an English name not proud of their background but it does give a different perception when communicating with a non-Vietnamese.

I can still feel the vibe when people ask my name and it's non-English. Now if it was English I'd get treated in a different light. It's just one of those weird inexpiable things.

khanh44 wrote:

Makes them feel like they've upgraded their social status.

I remember entering high school all my asian friends adopted an English name except for me. I'm proud of my Vietnamese background. Not saying all that adopt an English name not proud of their background but it does give a different perception when communicating with a non-Vietnamese.

I can still feel the vibe when people ask my name and it's non-English. Now if it was English I'd get treated in a different light. It's just one of those weird inexpiable things.

I understand and agree with you.  But how about those who have always lived in Vietnam? Is it part of learning and speaking English to identify better? Does it help promote the learning of English for the student?

khanh44 wrote:

Makes them feel like they've upgraded their social status.

I remember entering high school all my asian friends adopted an English name except for me. I'm proud of my Vietnamese background. Not saying all that adopt an English name not proud of their background but it does give a different perception when communicating with a non-Vietnamese.

I can still feel the vibe when people ask my name and it's non-English. Now if it was English I'd get treated in a different light. It's just one of those weird inexpiable things.

From my personal experience, your explanation on feeling of upgrading the social status just one of the things. I understand the way of having "an English name" came about 15-20 years ago when the real "open door" was. Vietnamese people working for foreign companies are required having an English name for the following reasons:

(i) the Vietnamese name is difficult for foreigners to pronounce, especially over the phone cause of accent;

(ii) there are alot "same" first name and sure name in Vietnam. In some big company, it happens a lot (ex. Nguyen Van A, Nguyen Thi A, etc - you may see people will call, A1, A2... To distinguish);

(iii) some names though different in Vietnamese writing but the same in English writing and imagine how will a foreign client does not know the Vietnamese culture can understand the differences (ex: Thuý, Thuỳ, Thuỷ, Thuỵ...)

This happens a lot in Taiwanese, Singaporean, Chinese companies. I think the reason being is the Chinese name is very difficult for other who do not know Chinese to say exactly the name, Chinese people have "English name" too. And they just simply apply to the employees in Vietnam.

The funny thing is Vietnamese people (especially young people) they feel "cool" when they are called by English name...

My former boss, when he discovered this funny thing when he saw most of my Vietnam FB friends have English name, except me. He asked us if we want an English name... Haha. And yah, why do we have to do so? Keep the real Vietnamese name, if anyone wants to call your name, they have to find the right way to call.

Thank you Aibiet for your input. I am debating with myself about the value of having students embrace an English name to facilitate learning English. Not sure if it is a good idea or not. Seeking advice and recommendations.

ancientpathos wrote:

Thank you Aibiet for your input. I am debating with myself about the value of having students embrace an English name to facilitate learning English. Not sure if it is a good idea or not. Seeking advice and recommendations.

If you asked me whether I want an English name? Just as said earlier, I do not want. I am proud of myself and my Vietnamese name which my parent chose. By the way, if you know how hard for the Vietnamese parent to give a name for their children, you will not want they have an English name. Haha. Here is the steps for a Vietnamese name of a kid:

- the father spends a lot of time to think about the name which must have "beautiful meaning";

- the mother spends a lot of time to think about the name which must be beautiful (for a girl) or strong (for a boy) as 10 years before, they could not know whether the baby would be boy or girl until the delivery;

- the parent of the father (grandparent) spend a lot of time to think about the name for their nephew/niece;

- the parent of the mother (grandparent) spend a lot of time to think about the name for the baby.

Then, they debate a lot... A lot of time needs to be spent, a lot of argument... in order to have the most beautiful and strongest name for the baby.

So, I do not see the reason why I have to have an English name.

Anyway, why dont you let your student choose whether they want an English name? Is it easier and more "democratic"?

I think it will be a fun simulation for the students to pick an English name but let them know it will only be a name they can call amongst each other in or outside the classroom so not to offend some that have pride attached to their Vietnamese name.

ancientpathos wrote:

Thank you Aibiet for your input. I am debating with myself about the value of having students embrace an English name to facilitate learning English. Not sure if it is a good idea or not. Seeking advice and recommendations.

This issue has come up before.  In short, I don't recommend "stepping on their parent's toes".  Just like you wouldn't want an Arabic teacher to rename your kid Akmed, you should make an effort to pronounce their given names, as a form of respect for their parents...read the article.

http://english.vov.vn/Society/Using-Eng … 230940.vov

khanh44 wrote:

I think it will be a fun simulation for the students to pick an English name but let them know it will only be a name they can call amongst each other in or outside the classroom so not to offend some that have pride attached to their Vietnamese name.

Conversely, how about the English teacher take on a Vietnamese name?  You can ask the students to "christen" (it just means to name something, like "christen a ship") you after 10 days of teaching to match you with Vietnamese personality that they think their teacher most represents.

Like if you're goofy they might call you Teacher Thầy chú hề.  When you go to the market, the kid will point you out to their parents and say in Vietnamese "oh look Mom, there's Thầy chú hề" to which the mother will laugh and giggle and feel like their money is well spent at the language school since the parents will remember the name.  If it was an English name, their parents won't remember it.

chú hề = clown 

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

ancientpathos wrote:

Thank you Aibiet for your input. I am debating with myself about the value of having students embrace an English name to facilitate learning English. Not sure if it is a good idea or not. Seeking advice and recommendations.

This issue has come up before.  In short, I don't recommend "stepping on their parent's toes".  Just like you wouldn't want an Arabic teacher to rename your kid Akmed, you should make an effort to pronounce their given names, as a form of respect for their parents...read the article.

http://english.vov.vn/Society/Using-Eng … 230940.vov

My reasons are not to make it easy on me. Plus my students are adult english teachers needing to prepare for FCE.  I am just trying to find ways to promote English immersion to encourage them to work on speaking english. It is just a thought, that maybe for 2 months if the students address themselves in English it would be a reminder to them to only speak in English.  Looking for answers from primary Vietnamese who use an English name. Did it help you learn and practice English.
I am not trying to change anyones cultural identity. When I took German in college, we took on German names. I was Wolfgang for 2 semesters.

Yes, it's like if you make the student have an English name, then you do not need to make an effort to pronounce their names properly, things are easier for you - I call that teacher-centric.
If they retain their original names, then you have to make effort - I call that pupil-centric.
Not to forget if the new born has a brother/sister then the name should also bear a 'linkage' to the elder one.
This practice probably had descended from age-old Chinese influence..

Sploke77,
You are still not understanding my question.  Has nothing to do with me pronouncing their names.

THD, you meant "christen", not "christian".

Albeit, what if your name is "Dung". It doesn't matter if you pronounce it Zung or Yung, English speakers are likely to pronounce it Dung, as in doo-doo. If not to your face, then behind your back.

There's nothing wrong with giving a Vietnamese-American child two names. Connie Kim Lan, Larry Le, Susan Xuan, etc. It doesn't make the child any less a human being, and our ethnicity is an accident of birth, not something we had to struggle to attain.

Ancient, I think you're on to something. It's been my experience that those who learn foreign languages faster tend to be highly imaginative. Having them assume a linguistic alter ego for the purposes of the class might help. Ho Chi Minh had a talent for languages, and used a series of pseudonyms over his life, including French, Chinese and Vietnamese names.

lirelou wrote:

THD, you meant "christen", not "christian".

Albeit, what if your name is "Dung". It doesn't matter if you pronounce it Zung or Yung, English speakers are likely to pronounce it Dung, as in doo-doo. If not to your face, then behind your back.

There's nothing wrong with giving a Vietnamese-American child two names. Connie Kim Lan, Larry Le, Susan Xuan, etc. It doesn't make the child any less a human being, and our ethnicity is an accident of birth, not something we had to struggle to attain.

Are we talking about the purpose of having another English name for a Vietnamese person? What's wrong with having another English name for a VN-American kids? Did I say it's wrong to have another? Did I say it's less human being? Also, the situation is not a kid has half-VNese half foreign parent which is another story.

Let me tell you what we are doing with Dung name - in writing we put Dzung but still, if you want to meet Dzung/Dung, you have to pronounce it right. Who cares how it is behind my back? And yah, if it's behind my back, how can I know?

The purpose of the question is whether it will bring more benefit for learning English if a Vietnamese person get another English name during the course. Do you think it will bring any benefit? From my experience, no!

Ancientpathos: you have experiences with German course. Did you get the German course easier with the German name? To be honest, I do not see any relations between having foreign name in order to study such language easier!

To change someone's given name is not easy according to law. It has some formalities to follow. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) I felt many Vietnamese students nowadays want to change their names given by their parents into an English name
I think it become a precedent started by language centers!
I thought about this many times, why... why?
If you have a Vietnamese or any other nationalities cannot study English? Is this part of discrimination? Or impose?
I don't think someone can be better in English if they accept English name. I remember someone asked me to give them an English name as they want to relocate to Australia I asked why you need a non Vietnamese name. The answer was simple - people can call it easily! I don't understand why we need to change for others' convenience. as one of our poster mentioned our parents take much time and effort to name a baby. Did you think about their feeling when you change your name without their consent? (even unofficially?) Oh who cares oldies!
When I came here it's difficult for my colleagues and others to pronounce my Indian long name:D So some of them rename it as an English one with the meaning of 'handsome'! In their eyes I am handsome, but I doubt am not But then I have no choice to disobey them. Later I thought it carefully and rename again it into an Indian one which my late father intend to give me. (His mother overtake and give a name to me which is very rare and beautiful but too long ) So now I am with my father's favorite name which means 'love' Irony is that so many people complained that I have no 'love' even though am very loving
So.. back to topic. In my opinion teachers shouldn't impose their students to choose an English name. But if they want teachers can suggest. Why should we change many people's effort within a few seconds?
And it's good someone call your real name given by your family even if they take a bit time to pronounce. Or why they cannot spent some time if they really want to get acquaintance with us by calling our given name rather than a fancy name given by outsiders?

Aibiet,
Thank you for your response. You are Vietnamese and I appreciate your time to respond.  As for the german class, I feel it was helpful being addressed by a german name.  It helped my brain respond better to speaking german.
Lirelou,
Thank you for understanding my desire is to help people learn.

As my students are not children, but adults in their 30's,40's and 50's I do not feel there is any disrespect for their parents nor any psychological damage that my occur to assuming an english alter ego when immersing in English.  My only goal is to assist them in passing the FCE exam.

oh well, my Vietnamese name is kinda difficult for foreigners to speak it correctly.

After many times my business partners tried to call me with my Vietnamese name but I didn't catch it because they pronounced my name wrong, I decided to have an English name for business.

For foreign friends, they still have to call me with my Vietnamese name and have to pronounce it correctly!

I have one cousin that's name Hoai. Try pronouncing that in English lol. And he works as a car sales manager so he had to adopt an English name for his job only otherwise we all call him by his Vietnamese name.

khanh44 wrote:

I have one cousin that's name Hoai.

WHY is your cousin's name a problem?

ancientpathos wrote:

Greetings,
There are many Vietnamese using western first names. I am curious as to the reason behind this.  Was this used to make learning English more personal?  Is it appropriate to have students learning English to adopt an English name for the classroom? Any advice from the members that are native vietnamese would be interesting.

My sister and I were born in Saigon. We have still use our Vietnamese names. My mother named us. My brothers' names are in English, my father named them. Friends of mines from other countries still use their birth names. My husband is Hispanic and he has always uses his birth name. I don't think adopting a different name other than a person's given birth name makes learning any language more personal. I think it's just a personal preference. That's my 10,000 dongs with Ancientpathos.

I hope I answered the question correctly? I am working on my second cup of Java....

lirelou wrote:

THD, you meant "christen", not "christian".
...

Yes I did, thank you for the correction.  I'll edit/update that post.

ancientpathos wrote:

Aibiet,
Thank you for your response. You are Vietnamese and I appreciate your time to respond.  As for the german class, I feel it was helpful being addressed by a german name.  It helped my brain respond better to speaking german.
Lirelou,
Thank you for understanding my desire is to help people learn.

As my students are not children, but adults in their 30's,40's and 50's I do not feel there is any disrespect for their parents nor any psychological damage that my occur to assuming an english alter ego when immersing in English.  My only goal is to assist them in passing the FCE exam.

Kids probably will think it's cool to have an English name...then they'll change it later on to a Russian name when they are studying Russian, French name when studying French, Korean name when studying Korean and so on.  But since your students are older, I don't think they care for an English name.  They just want to pass the FCE so they can get a raise/better job.  I doubt everyone in your class will really care to LEARN English for learning sake.  If you find one or two, then engage them and go that route.

In Vietnamese culture, I have found that a name(in directly addressing) isn't as important as Americans do.  For example, your name is Ron (it's in your profile).  It's not uncommon for you and I to use each other's name in our conversation. 

"Yo Ron, over here. How's it going?  So Ron, what's up man?  Not much....etc."

And if I was talking to Lou...

"Yo Lou, over here.  How's it going?  So Lou, what's up man? Not much...etc"

In Vietnamese, you can totally NOT know someone's name and have a conversation with them.  I do this alot because usually Vietnamese people don't introduce themselves when talking to you.  They use pronouns all the time...ie. ông bà, anh chị em.

So back to that example...I can use the same conversation with Ron AND Khanh (the conversation would be in Vietnamese of course)

"Yo Anh, over here.  How's it going? So Anh, what's up man?  Not much...etc"

So...it seems the culture isn't nitpicky on getting the exactness of addressing.  It goes with addressing buildings and roads as well.  Today I drove on one straight road and must have gone through five names for it.  They're more used to honor heroes/events instead of serving a purpose of commerce.

And I'm willing to bet you that if I met one of your students on the street and ask the name of their teacher, they'd probably answer some American dude (with the goofy mustache).

So, in your studying of Vietnamese, what's your Vietnamese name?  (like when you study German, you were Wolfgang).

saigonmonkey wrote:

khanh44 wrote:

I have one cousin that's name Hoai.

WHY is your cousin's name a problem?

lol I meant to say trying pronouncing Hoai in English not Vietnamese.

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

And I'm willing to bet you that if I met one of your students on the street and ask the name of their teacher, they'd probably answer some American dude (with the goofy mustache).

So, in your studying of Vietnamese, what's your Vietnamese name?  (like when you study German, you were Wolfgang).

Goofy,hey I get compliments about my mustache... Learning Vietnamese has been hard, to many voices in my head.  Sometimes spanish, german, farzi, thai gets all mixed up now while trying to learn vietnamese.

As for my original question, many have answered, few are native vietnamese.  Some think I want to do this to make my life easier on remembering names. Names, are very difficult for me to remember regardless of the language. 

I started teaching because I wanted to act productive. The key word is act. Now I find myself wanting to be a teaching guru, the best of the best. My expectations of myself and others are sometimes far higher than they need to be.  The reality of life is that most people and that includes me tend to make things way more complicated than they need to be. Time to return to "acting" productive.

My fiance says it's mostly because to upgrade their social status, or to look cool.  When I first met her, I asked if she had an English name, and she said, "Why would I need one?  There's nothing wrong with my name is there?" and I said, well your name is a guy's name after all (it's Duy) )

ancientpathos wrote:

....
I started teaching because I wanted to act productive. The key word is act. Now I find myself wanting to be a teaching guru, the best of the best. My expectations of myself and others are sometimes far higher than they need to be.  The reality of life is that most people and that includes me tend to make things way more complicated than they need to be. Time to return to "acting" productive.

Good attitude.  We'll revisit that burning passion of teaching in your heart a few months down the road and see how that is going.  Most teachers reach burn-out state within a year; probably due to all the spoiled bratty kids.  Schools have a high turnover rate (that explains why you see alot of advertisements for teachers).  You're teaching adults so maybe your passion for teaching will last longer.

mikeymyke wrote:

My fiance says it's mostly because to upgrade their social status, or to look cool.  When I first met her, I asked if she had an English name, and she said, "Why would I need one?  There's nothing wrong with my name is there?" and I said, well your name is a guy's name after all (it's Duy) )

Duy is pronounced in English is Die. Well at least that's how everyone calls my cousin Duy including me.

mikeymyke wrote:

My fiance says it's mostly because to upgrade their social status, or to look cool.  When I first met her, I asked if she had an English name, and she said, "Why would I need one?  There's nothing wrong with my name is there?" and I said, well your name is a guy's name after all (it's Duy) )

I have met many western guys that live in remote area like Mekong Delta that learn Vietnamese and adopt Vietnamese names. So according to your fiancee, they want to...."downgrade" their social status, or to look not-so-cool?

Most of the people I have met that have English names possess very difficult names for foreigners to speak (try to say Nguyễn, Tuyết, Hương, Thảo,....correctly!). Imagine many people from Japan, Singapore, Korea... also have English names. Now I know they just wanted to look cool =/

Ngan Khanh wrote:

mikeymyke wrote:

My fiance says it's mostly because to upgrade their social status, or to look cool.  When I first met her, I asked if she had an English name, and she said, "Why would I need one?  There's nothing wrong with my name is there?" and I said, well your name is a guy's name after all (it's Duy) )

I have met many western guys that live in remote area like Mekong Delta that learn Vietnamese and adopt Vietnamese names. So according to your fiancee, they want to...."downgrade" their social status, or to look not-so-cool?
...

Good one Ngan Khanh!

Ngan Khanh wrote:

mikeymyke wrote:

My fiance says it's mostly because to upgrade their social status, or to look cool.  When I first met her, I asked if she had an English name, and she said, "Why would I need one?  There's nothing wrong with my name is there?" and I said, well your name is a guy's name after all (it's Duy) )

I have met many western guys that live in remote area like Mekong Delta that learn Vietnamese and adopt Vietnamese names. So according to your fiancee, they want to...."downgrade" their social status, or to look not-so-cool?

Most of the people I have met that have English names possess very difficult names for foreigners to speak (try to say Nguyễn, Tuyết, Hương, Thảo,....correctly!). Imagine many people from Japan, Singapore, Korea... also have English names. Now I know they just wanted to look cool =/

I was thinking of "downgrading" my name to Trần Hưng Đạo....as in go back to the States and ask a court to rename myself to "Dao Hung Tran" and just reverse it when I get back to Việt Nam.

Actually you upgraded your name( or stolen?) with a warrior

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

I was thinking of "downgrading" my name to Trần Hưng Đạo....as in go back to the States and ask a court to rename myself to "Dao Hung Tran" and just reverse it when I get back to Việt Nam.

Tran Hung Dao wrote:

Ngan Khanh wrote:

mikeymyke wrote:

My fiance says it's mostly because to upgrade their social status, or to look cool.  When I first met her, I asked if she had an English name, and she said, "Why would I need one?  There's nothing wrong with my name is there?" and I said, well your name is a guy's name after all (it's Duy) )

I have met many western guys that live in remote area like Mekong Delta that learn Vietnamese and adopt Vietnamese names. So according to your fiancee, they want to...."downgrade" their social status, or to look not-so-cool?

Most of the people I have met that have English names possess very difficult names for foreigners to speak (try to say Nguyễn, Tuyết, Hương, Thảo,....correctly!). Imagine many people from Japan, Singapore, Korea... also have English names. Now I know they just wanted to look cool =/

I was thinking of "downgrading" my name to Trần Hưng Đạo....as in go back to the States and ask a court to rename myself to "Dao Hung Tran" and just reverse it when I get back to Việt Nam.

Hey, in 1968 I was K'sor Y Dra, and my Rhade wasn't bad. Lirelou is a nom de plume from a fictional hero in a novel set in the First Indochina War. My university education was in Spanish and one of my professors, looking at my name on my first day of class (Derecho Civil), immediately took it as a joke the class was playing on him. When I raised my hand as the owner of this ungodly moniker, he apologized. And I actually have a Vietnamese name somewhere, if I can find my Buddhist ordination certificate.   Minh something or other.

Ngam Khanh, Of the 300 foreigners who served in Gia Long's Army, at least seven of them married Vietnamese women and settled in VIetnam. If I recall correctly, six married into Vietnamese Catholic families, and one into a Buddhist family from Hue. I assume all "vietnamized" their names. After all, when in Hue, do as the Hue people do.

Jean Leroy, born and raised in Ben Tre, had no trouble identifying as a Vietnamese, but I have to wonder how his family's neighbors pronounced the name.