Overstay Brazil visa - fine

06/04/23 @abthree Drop off your record ? Never heard of that one !
-@cindylido

For foreigners who are allowed up to 180 days in every 365, the measurement period is a rolling twelve months. Every time a foreigner arrives in Brazil, the Immigration system looks back at the previous twelve months and counts the number of days during that period that the person was in Brazil. If it was 180 or over, the person will probably be denied entry. If it was less than 180, the visitor is allowed 180 minus that number.  Since it's a rolling measure, every time the month changes the oldest month drops off.  Any days that the visitor used in that month become available again.

For travelers allowed 90 days in every 180 days the principle is the same, the measurement period is just shorter.

Makes sense, i guess. We had been going  almost every year since 1985 and it was never done like that. I know things have changed in the  8 years we could not return due to my hubby's health issues. Good to know

06/05/23 Makes sense, i guess. We had been going almost every year since 1985 and it was never done like that. I know things have changed in the 8 years we could not return due to my hubby's health issues. Good to know
-@cindylido

That's been the system at least since 2012 when I started returning to Brazil several times a year, and for much longer based on some of James Woodward's old posts.  If you didn't overstay your 180 days, or only had short overstays and paid your fines, you probably would never have had any issues with it.

Remember the old "Cartão de Entrada/Saída", "Entry/Exit Card" that we used to have to fill out on the incoming flight, that the Immigration Officer would stamp, keep a copy, return the rest, and then they'd finally collect on departure?  Supposedly the system was updated based on those.  A lot of them always went missing, and I'm sure that there were many, many data input errors, so there were a lot of gaps.  When officers couldn't access the data, or it was incomplete, they often just let it go.  The PF computer systems were upgraded for the current law in 2017, and with biometric passports and point-of-contact readers for input, most of those loopholes have been closed.

Now Available in the EXPAT.COM Brazil Store

....Personalized T- Shirts "IF I Don't Make It Thru Customs...Send My Body Back To The Nearest AIR Bnb"

Roddie In Retirement

08/29/23  Hello everyone,
@texanbrazil @abthree @English Penguin
First of all, thank you so much for everything you do here, it's awesome. I would really appreciate any comments on this one
Tried to apply for a family visa or residency ‘before' my tourist visa expired but the Federal Police demanded an official apostille from an FBI criminal records report, which I only would be able to get if I left Brazil to go do my fingerprints in USA.
Now my question is what would happen if I leave Brazil right now? Would I be able to come back for my family? Would I need to wait 180 days or whatever? What if I leave through the land without ever getting an exit stamp, Would it be worse? And by the way, if I never left and never got notified how could I know how much and if I'm supposed to pay the fee?
Would some of you guys have any opinions or suggestions on my case?
Thank you all, again, so much.
Best, Sam
-@Sam Cagle

Hi, Sam.  Thanks for the kind words.  Unhappily, Texanbrazil passed away in April.  He was a good friend and we miss him.  I'll be happy to share my thoughts on your situation.

In your place, I would find a lawyer, perhaps with the help of your husband's family, and try to obtain an Authorization for Residency based on Family Reunion through the Federal Police without having to return to the US.  It may help to point out that a separation at this time would be hard on your baby.  It may or may not be possible, but if it works, it may save you some time.

If you go to the United States and apply for a VITEM XI family reunion visa at a Brazilian Consulate, you should be able to get the visa and return on it as soon as you have it.  You'll then have to go through the Federal Police process residency, but it will be a shorter, faster version.  Make sure that you check the website of the Consulate where you'll be applying for the visa, and that you have all the required documents with you, including authenticated copies of your husband's and child's documents.  When you leave Brazil you will probably be told that you owe a fine, and you will probably have to pay it immediately on your return.

08/30/23 @Sam Cagle.  Some people HAVE succeeded in obtaining their FBI Background Check in Brazil by having themselves fingerprinted in Brazil on the FBI fingerprint card (printable online), sending it to the FBI, and having the report sent to a US address.  This requires a friend or relative on the US end who will receive it, get the apostille for you and send the complete package here.  If you go that route, it's good to have multiple originals and an electronic copy.  One big problem reported here by expats is that Brazilian police organizations in many states seem to be increasingly resistant to fingerprinting foreigners for these purposes.

A well-connected lawyer can sometimes find open doors at Brazilian agencies where a foreigner only sees blank walls.  It's an idea to consider.

Another option would be to fly into Miami, get the FBI Background Check from an Approved Channeler, and use an apostille service to get the apostille and forward the apostilled document to either your US or your Brazilian address.  It will cost more, but may be faster and less disruptive to your life.

Hello folks,

as far as I can tell nobody here knows of a case of anyone being kept from re-entering the country after having paid the fine?

Reason Im askingis, I also will be overstaying my 90 day visa by 7 days and the embassy in germany told me that that might happen. Although I suspect they have to say that them being the embassy and all.

Thanks and kind regards

Jonas

09/13/23 as far as I can tell nobody here knows of a case of anyone being kept from re-entering the country after having paid the fine?
Reason Im askingis, I also will be overstaying my 90 day visa by 7 days and the embassy in germany told me that that might happen. Although I suspect they have to say that them being the embassy and all.

Thanks and kind regards
Jonas
-@Jonas Castorp

I believe that English Penguin was -- see Post #4 in this thread:

https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.p … 63#5755615

However, that was for a much longer overstay than 7 days.   And being German, if you stay out of Brazil for 90 days you should be able to return with no fear of being denied entry anyway.

Ah thanks I missed that! I wont be coming back for the next year so I dont have to worry about that. Ill be sure to report back when I am back

Hi.I see all the threads are old,does anyone know how it is now? I was in Maceio last year and went to the federal polis as always to get another 3 months on my schengen visa ( I am Danish) they , to my surprice told me this was not possible anymore? I was informed that it would be 100R a day if I stayed longer.When i 21 days late left Sao Paulo , no one knew anything about this "new" law? and after having been round the airport for hours the federal polis told me to just go through the passport controle ? as I did.

There they assured me that there was no new law and that I should have had a 3 months extension no problem and they gave me a 500R fine and told me to go to my embassy next time and get this done in advance.

So contradiction all the way?

Anyone know what is actually going on?

Thank´s

09/19/23 @Helpkelp.  Good morning.  It's not a "new" law:  it's been that way for a long time.  Unless their country had a separate agreement with Brazil that they chose to keep, citizens of most Schengen countries, including Denmark, can stay 90 days in every 180 days with no extensions.  Citizens of most other visa waiver countries can stay for 90 days, then get an extension for another 90 days.  Note that both groups get the same maximum of 180 days in every 365 days; citizens of Schengen countries just have to split it into two visits, at least 90 days apart.  Here's the QGRV, that is supposed to be authoritative for both the Foreign Ministry for visas and the Federal Police for extensions. (There's a typo on this English language version:  France should have a "*"):

https://www.gov.br/mre/pt-br/assuntos/p … MAR231.pdf

Some of the heavy hitters in tourism:  the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, Japan, Portugal, are in the 90 + extension group, and a lot of Federal Police offices seem to confuse the two groups pretty regularly.  This usually results in a Schengen citizen getting an extension that s/he isn't really entitled to; even though it's a mistake, it's still valid for the visitor, because the Federal Police CAN grant exemptions to the rules, although it's not encouraged.  It's more likely, though, for a Schengen visitor to end up in the situation you did.

09/19/23 @Helpkelp.  In granting visas, Brazil operates on a principle of strict reciprocity.  The same rules apply to Schengen Area citizens in Brazil that apply to Brazilians in the Schengen Area:

https://um.dk/en/travel-and-residence/h … for-a-visa

@Jonas Castorp So whatever abthree says i would follow.

Hello folks,

as far as I can tell nobody here knows of a case of anyone being kept from re-entering the country after having paid the fine?

Reason Im askingis, I also will be overstaying my 90 day visa by 7 days and the embassy in germany told me that that might happen. Although I suspect they have to say that them being the embassy and all.

Thanks and kind regards

Jonas

When I went to Miami to get my FBI Background check, I had two or three days left on my visa and All the documents with me to apply for the Permanent Residence Visa by Spouse.  Still I was physically stopped by the customs agents from returning to Brazil. Only extensive negotiations and the possible assist from someone in Brasilia on an Easter Holiday weekend as well as my Brazilian spouse calling in from Ceara allowed me to return after several hours.

My take home has always been that it does not matter what you have been told or read. It is the decision of the 250lb. 6ft. tall customs agent and what they understand on whether you are getting through or not.

Roddie in Retirement

@roddiesho I overstayed my visa by one day. The second I handed my passport to the customs lady I told her and gave her a reason. Flight prices and to be able to say goodbye to my wife.

She asked for my documents but they were in my checked luggage.  She went to speak with her supervisor,  came back and said it is fine and no over stay charge was applied to me.

Be honest and don't make them have to figure it out.

01/20/24  Be honest and don't make them have to figure it out.
   

    -@Canforbra

There's a lot of wisdom wrapped up in that one little sentence.  You don't have to volunteer information to the Federal Police -- in fact, it's often better for both sides if you don't -- but never, EVER, lie to them.  Friendly and forthright often gets cooperation, while seeming unresponsive or uncooperative just inspires suspicion.

@Canforbra We explained it to them for about TWO HOURS or more. My wife called in from Northern Brazil and she explained it to them. I ALREADY had ALL my documents in my hand not in my checked suitcase. They contacted their supervisors and higher ups. My wife sent them copies of ALL our families passports.

I guess it is like when you go out to eat, some servers will be great and some will spit in your soup. I guess that was not our day, but you ALWAYs' need to be prepared. Their was NOTHING unfriendly and forthright that I did.  It sounds like I just got the bad apple. When it started the agent at the counter, just disappeared for about 20 minutes to see someone.  Whatever their problem was it existed for at least a half an hour before I even did more than put my passport on the counter.

Roddie in Retirement

I have a situation where my first entry date in Brazil was August 27, 2007 so my calendar date begins on August 27 of each year.  When I entered the country this week, my passport stamp showed 79 days remaining for my calendar year.  I had stayed 101 days from September to December 2023.  My stay this time will be 89 days, which is 10 days overstay.  I expect to pay a R$1000 fine (10 days x R$100 per day).

Is there a 180 day ban for any overstay?   Or is it up to the immigration officer when you enter?  I keep hearing about this ban, but I don't know if that is something official.  I plan to return to Brazil around September 20th of this year, which is about 3 weeks into my new calendar year (August 27th).  Do you think there will be any issues of re-entering if I pay my fine upon entry?  I plan to pay my fine upon departure but they may not allow that on a Sunday evening 9 pm flight even though Safra bank at GRU is open 24 hours a day.

03/13/24  Is there a 180 day ban for any overstay?   Or is it up to the immigration officer when you enter?  I keep hearing about this ban, but I don't know if that is something official.  I plan to return to Brazil around September 20th of this year, which is about 3 weeks into my new calendar year (August 27th).  Do you think there will be any issues of re-entering if I pay my fine upon entry?  I plan to pay my fine upon departure but they may not allow that on a Sunday evening 9 pm flight even though Safra bank at GRU is open 24 hours a day.        -@bangunolufsen

Be very careful about relying on the "Ano Migratório" to justify staying in Brazil more than 180 days in every rolling 365 days.  The two rules are in conflict, and the 180 day rule will usually trump the other.  In your particular case, your anniversary date pre-dates the current Lei da Migração by ten years, so I doubt that it even appears anywhere in the PF records.  If you have an Ano Migratório at all, your anniversary date is probably the date of your first arrival in Brazil after November 26, 2017, when the current law went into effect.

If you're allowed to re-enter Brazil in September, there's no ban for a brief overtstay and there shouldn't be a problem paying your fine -- although pre-planning to break the law is pretty brazen -- but I have a real question as to whether you'll be allowed to enter the country at all under the 180 day rule.  My suggestion would be to go to the PF while you're here legally and discuss your plans for the rest of the year (leaving out the planned overstay), and see what they have to say about returning in September.

I agree with @abthree. I first entered as a tourist in 2007 as well, and that date was irrelevant in all future calculations. My concern would be that you are clearly planning to be in breach of the 180 day rule, and are not behaving as a tourist within the terms of the visa.

My concern is that you would not be allowed back in at that time later this year, and that they could even impose a ban on your return for several years.

@bangunolufsen If you stay more than 183 days in a "visit year" you are considered a Tax Resident and that opens up a whole can of worms.  You mention the date of your first entry in Brasil, being August 27, 2007.  While that starts the clock ticking for the visit year, which would end on August 26, 2008, subsequent years don't necessarily start on August 27th.  They start on your next entry.  In other words, lets say that first year, you completed your travel to Brasil on June 5th, 2008 - and your next trip to Brasil was November 5th, 2008 - that starts the next visit year, which would then end on November 4th, 2009.  In other words, your first visit to Brasil doesn't start some kind of arbitrary anniversary date in perpetuity.  Future visits determine the start of subsequent visit years, each are discrete events. 

Under tourist rules you can stay 180 days during each visit year.  If you stay longer than 183 days, you become a tax resident, regardless of whether you are there legally or not.

@bangunolufsen In addition to knowing whether you are a tax resident in Brazil, you may also be a tax resident of the US at the same time.

Tax residency in the US is based on calendar presence (see -> https://www.irs.gov/individuals/interna … ncy-status) rather than days within the country.

I understand that you are worried about entry in Brazil but you may be asked the tough questions what your planned residency goals.  Tax residency is complicated and should be planned ahead of time or you will be paying more fines from the RF and IRS than you expected.

I am still trying to figure out how to optimize the tax thing without mixing with visa issues.  Here you may want to make sure that when you go to the PF to pay the fines, that you have covered the issues related to the tax residency also.

Have you considered getting a lawyer to help you here?  It appears that your situation may be complicated and could use someone who has actually dealt with people with similar situations....

Hope that this helps.

Hello everyone.  Thanks for all the input.

So I asked the immigration officer this week at GRU when I arrived and she did say that my calendar year always starts on August 27th.  She also said that it shouldn't be a problem if I pay the fine and enter after August 27th and that I could not enter before then.  I even told her that I have had 3 passports since my first entry and she looked in the computer and said that my calendar year still starts on August 27th.

I just wanted to see if anyone else has been subject to this 180 day ban for a short overstay, if a short versus long overstay even matters here.

mikehunter and Pablo888, that's interesting regarding the taxation issue.  I didn't know about that.  Seems like other people who have stayed beyond the 180 days in a year would have been subject to the same problem if they returned.  Just didn't see any mention of this issue in this forum thread.

03/13/24  @bangunolufsen.  If you remember, please let us know how it goes.

@bangunolufsen Interesting.  I suppose both could be correct, but I kind of doubt it.  That doesn't make any sense to me.  I just know that I went to a lawyer and got an opinion because I wanted to make sure that I didn't run afoul of the tax residency rules.  I've been staying 180 days for years, mixing and matching 3 month stays and have never had an issue.  I've been going to Brasil since 2000 so I'd have to dig out my old passport to see my first entry day.  They may have it on record, but I've never considered it when planning trips - I've always used the rolling date.  Maybe somehow by luck they always lined up?  My only concern has been making sure I obeyed the tax residency rules.

Just a quick note, here is the text regarding taxation:

Será tributada pelo Imposto de Renda, como

residente no País, a pessoa física proveniente do

exterior que ingressar no Brasil, com visto

temporário:

a) para trabalhar com vínculo empregatício, em

relação aos fatos geradores ocorridos a partir da data

de sua chegada;

b) por qualquer outro motivo e aqui permanecer por

período superior a 183 dias, consecutivos ou não,

contado, dentro de um intervalo de 12 meses, da data

de qualquer chegada, em relação aos fatos geradores

ocorridos a partir do dia subsequente àquele em que

se completar referido período de permanência.

@bangunolufsen - have you always come into Brazil through Sao Paulo GRU? As most of us understand it, the 180 day rule is over a moving year, as @mikehunter stated, but it appears that the PF office at GRU interprets it as an annual year starting on the anniversary of your first arrival date. This is not the first time this anomaly has come up, but has anyone else experienced this anniversary date being used at any other airports?

The risk is that GRU might re-interpret their understanding of the rule to match elsewhere - for example they get a new boss. Should this happen while you are in Brazil, you will just have to pay the fine for overstaying. But if it happens while you are out of Brazil they could refuse you admission.

They cannot fine you in these circumstances, as you cannot enter the country to pay the fine, so they may ban you for a period of time. Not sure what the rule is in Brazil, but in the US this ban if you are refused admission is for a minimum of 5 years.

@Peter Itamaraca my first entry into Brazil was through GIG in Rio, but the last 7 years or so I have entered through GRU.  They still have it in the computer at GRU as my first entry being August 27 2007 at GIG in spite of having entered with 2 different passports since then.  I have overstayed in GRU before, but only by a few days on a 90 day stay and paid the fine.  I've never done an overstay past 180 days like my case is right now so this is new to me and was worried about the ban.

@abthree after thinking over my situation and reading all the input from this forum, I decided to change my return flight to stay 79 days and not overstay.  The uncertainty about a 180 day ban and staying 183+ days being a possible taxable resident is just isn't worth any risk.

Thanks everyone for the input and helping make the right decision!

03/22/24    @abthree after thinking over my situation and reading all the input from this forum, I decided to change my return flight to stay 79 days and not overstay.  The uncertainty about a 180 day ban and staying 183+ days being a possible taxable resident is just isn't worth any risk.
Thanks everyone for the input and helping make the right decision!
   

    -@bangunolufsen

I think that's prudent.  Enjoy your stay in Brazil, and many stays to come.

this is a great thread.  It sparked a thought as I am always flirting with the 183 day limit.  On my next trip I will exceed 183 days if I do not take a side trip out of the country (which is in planning to happen).  My question is, "Should I have concern that the government will not calculate my side trip correctly and think I have stayed more than 183 days in a sliding window".  This is probably a difficult question go answer but clearly there are people here with deep experience.

03/22/24      My question is, "Should I have concern that the government will not calculate my side trip correctly and think I have stayed more than 183 days in a sliding window".  This is probably a difficult question go answer but clearly there are people here with deep experience.
   

    -@headshot

You should not have a problem, as long as you make sure that your passport is scanned by Passport Control on departure (automatic at airports, but you may have to ask at a land border crossing), and remember that days of arrival and days of departure count as full days in Brazil.

@abthree -- it is Brazil, so you can pretty count on there being some mistake somewhere or someone not counting correctly... it's just always 80%... so, have your stamps, your own spreadsheet of arrival and departures and you'll be fine if challenged; and chances are great, they just won't care as that would mean extra paperwork for them and unless it is a long overstay, they are unlikely to bother... when in Brazil, always assume something doesn't go right and have all paperwork and extra in duplicate with you at all times (passport, birth certificate, marriage certificate, translations of the same if not in Portuguese, etc.)... and it'll always take much longer than they claim (rapidhino is rarely quick -- lol)

  03/22/24  @abthree -- it is Brazil, so you can pretty count on there being some mistake somewhere or someone not counting correctly... it's just always 80%... so, have your stamps, your own spreadsheet of arrival and departures and you'll be fine if challenged; and chances are great, they just won't care as that would mean extra paperwork for them and unless it is a long overstay, they are unlikely to bother... when in Brazil, always assume something doesn't go right and have all paperwork and extra in duplicate with you at all times (passport, birth certificate, marriage certificate, translations of the same if not in Portuguese, etc.)... and it'll always take much longer than they claim (rapidhino is rarely quick -- lol)        -@mjs30170

I dunno - I was a day-counter for a lot of years of professional necessity, and never had that kind of a problem.   Of course,  I also spoke fluent Portuguese and never tried to game the system.  That makes a difference.  🤷‍♂️

I agree that keeping good records is always a better idea than trying to fly by the seat of your pants:  the PF have little patience with that.

much obliged to you all.... I have a spreadsheet and I am not afraid to use it

    much obliged to you all.... I have a spreadsheet and I am not afraid to use it -@headshot

Yeah, Google Sheets is your friend! 

@headshot If you're right up against the limit, don't forget to take leap year into account (e.g. 366 days vs 365), and to add to @abthree's excellent advice regarding the passport scan, make sure you also get the date stamp.

03/22/24    @headshot If you're right up against the limit, don't forget to take leap year into account (e.g. 366 days vs 365), and to add to @abthree's excellent advice regarding the passport scan, make sure you also get the date stamp.
   

    -@mikehunter

In fact to be perfectly safe, I'd consider taking my out-of-Brazil break closer to the middle of the stay than toward the end.

I'm having a mini-crisis about the duration of my stay in Brasil, as I just noticed an error in my spreadsheet tracking and also hadn't fully digested the "migratory year" concept; I was just looking at the past 180 days in a rolling 365 days.

If using the latter methodology, it is 184 days (across several trips well under 90 days) if you count my arrival date on a trip last year (4/17/23), but just 165 days if you count 365 days back from when I plan to depart (between 5/6/23 and 5/5/24).  I understand from other posts that the first calculation is probably what matters.  Note that my entry stamp from this trip (arriving 4/17/24) didn't have the written the number of days, but my last entry stamp (on 3/7/24) shows "90" which seems more generous than my math...

Anyway, I am not terribly worried about the fine if it turns out to just be a few days, but if it also includes a 6 month ban, then I have a problem.

I would appreciate any thoughts on the above.

And also, if I wanted to get a definitive number of days left from the PF, do you know if I would need to go out to Guarulhos, or is there another office in São Paulo that can assist? My guess is that Guarulhos may be better equipped to give a fast answer.    Or I can just wing it on departure, but as mentioned, the 6 month ban spooks me a bit.

Thanks!