Why the morally suspicious behaviour of some Vietnamese people?

It's all part of the game Willy.   Opportunity knocks, nothing ventured /nothing gained.

WillyBaldy wrote:

I've had this question for a long time but it's very subtle and not easy to correctly express. I don't want the question to sound like "Why are so many Vietnamese people morally corrupt?" because it's not really want I want to say. So here's a recent example:

I started having private Vietnamese lessons with a local woman in Rach Gia who's a primary school teacher and also English teacher on evenings and week-ends. We have a deal for private lessons, I pay her 1M for 8 hours a month. In Rach Gia, that's quite a good "salary". Today, she asked me if her best female friend, a Westerner, could join me in classes. She did not offer to lower the price or extend the hours, so this meant that I'd end up with this total beginner (knows zero word of Vietnamese) in a one hour class which was supposed to be private.

When I told her "no", she said "Okay, I knew you've paid for these private lessons so I wanted to ask you first".

Well, from her answer, I knew the reason was not because she was clueless about the lack of "etiquette" such behaviour has. She knew it was not something that was "okay" but she asked anyway. I am 100% confident that if it was a Vietnamese citizen paying for their kid's lesson, she would never even have entertaining asking to have that class shared with someone without at least compensating somehow.

I know most Vietnamese people know right from wrong. Why is it that they'll sometimes try to pull off something like this? Is it because as a Westerner I'm supposed to be "so nice" that I wont' dare say no? Because she's a beautiful woman and she thinks I'll only think with my other head? Maybe because I simply look so stupid? Heck, truth hurts but I'm ready to accept it 

Me being "devil's advocate":

I'm assuming you engaged her as a teacher because of her ability to speak English well enough for you to understand.

Perhaps it also impressed you that she is an educator professionally.

You are paying her 125,000 Vietnam Dong per 1 hour private lesson; currently about $5.38 USD an hour.

In Hanoi, the best rate I was able to find among teachers for foreign businessmen was $20.00 per private hour/$10.00 USD for 1 hour of group instruction.

I know you are in Rach Gia where prices are not as inflated, but you definitely were getting a good deal if the teacher is well qualified.

She likely knows this.

However, it's not as if you got through a lesson or two and then she told you to pay more money for her to complete the series of lessons.

THAT would definitely be considered wrong by honorable Vietnamese citizens, I think.

Instead, I'm guessing she saw an opportunity to teach another student but has limited time available.

By coming to you in the manner she did, it's not as if she tried to extort more money.

I would say she "reopened negotiations".

Of course, you were totally within your rights to say no.

However, you could have replied in a number of other ways too:

"If I can now have 20 lessons, yes"

"If you refund half of my money, yes"

Or whatever.

Also, perhaps remember that Vietnamese people do not have the same sense of "privacy" that we do in the west.

In her mind, she might have thought "the more the merrier"

It sounds as if you didn't get too much into her thinking or justification for asking you the question, and in the end, she affirmed your right to continue your arrangement as agreed.

All of that to say, I don't see anything "morally suspicious" about her inquiry.

But I also fully understand you feeling the need to say no.

Cheers!

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

All of that to say, I don't see anything "morally suspicious" about her inquiry.

But I also fully understand you feeling the need to say no.

Cheers!

Thanks for your input! I guess it's a different, valid way of looking at this. The reason why I did not make any counter offer is that I don't really care about money refund but mostly about time efficiency. So even if she did offer to extend offers I would have refused, as two hours a week is pretty much all I can put into right now, especially if I want to have some extra time to actually practice.

I took her out to a few dinners and I'm taking her to the cinema tonight so I guess I'm paying in different ways than the actual lesson fees

WillyBaldy wrote:

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

All of that to say, I don't see anything "morally suspicious" about her inquiry.

But I also fully understand you feeling the need to say no.

Cheers!

Thanks for your input! I guess it's a different, valid way of looking at this. The reason why I did not make any counter offer is that I don't really care about money refund but mostly about time efficiency. So even if she did offer to extend offers I would have refused, as two hours a week is pretty much all I can put into right now, especially if I want to have some extra time to actually practice.

I took her out to a few dinners and I'm taking her to the cinema tonight so I guess I'm paying in different ways than the actual lesson fees

Well...I had also wondered if you were feeling a bit resentful of having your private time with the beautiful woman interrupted.

I mean, if you really value the private time with her, and then she says, let's let somebody else be in this class, Maybe it's disappointing that she doesn't want to continue the classes with only you?

You definitely wouldn't be the first man to have mixed motivations.

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

Well...I had also wondered if you were feeling a bit resentful of having your private time with the beautiful woman interrupted.

I mean, if you really value the private time with her, and then she says, let's let somebody else be in this class, Maybe it's disappointing that she doesn't want to continue the classes with only you?

You definitely wouldn't be the first man to have mixed motivations.

I actually wish it were for such a noble reason 

Have you met this "western" woman? She may be very attractive but not obsessed with getting married. Possibly, a lost opportunity to meet someone a little less repressed...

Or, perhaps your teacher fears being alone with you and needs to bring a friend along similar to your dates?

johnross23 wrote:

Have you met this "western" woman? She may be very attractive but not obsessed with getting married. Possibly, a lost opportunity to meet someone a little less repressed...

Or, perhaps your teacher fears being alone with you and needs to bring a friend along similar to your dates?

Yeah, met that Western woman, I don't think there's any potential there I really doubt the teacher is "afraid" to be alone with me, the first class went well and it's in her house where her parents wander around.

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

You are paying her 125,000 Vietnam Dong per 1 hour private lesson; currently about $5.38 USD an hour.

In Hanoi, the best rate I was able to find among teachers for foreign businessmen was $20.00 per private hour/$10.00 USD for 1 hour of group instruction.

From my experience at a real language school in Saigon where I paid $7/private lesson hour, $20 is highway robbery.

WillyBaldy wrote:

... Today, she asked me if her best female friend, a Westerner, could join me in classes. She did not offer to lower the price or extend the hours, so this meant that I'd end up with this total beginner (knows zero word of Vietnamese) in a one hour class which was supposed to be private.

No most definitely not an example of moral corruptitude (word? if not, it should be)
Consider:
1. Vietnamese are always negotiating, but I don't think that's what she was doing.
2. She wasn't asking you for money
3. She was helping the lady for free (nice) and thought it might be fun or less boring for you (nice)
4. Vietnamese are social, more people the better.
5. She showed her respect to you by asking if it would be ok. She could have just invited the lady.
6. It didn't cross her mind that you would feel cheated.
7. Ok, she was a little thoughtless or naive because of #6.
8. Anyway, it was fine that you said no. Perhaps she feels complimented that your time with her is valuable to you.

You know the 1990s movie Office Space? Your reaction, analyzing how you will receive x% less instruction per hour, reminded me of the scene where the secretary is cutting pieces of birthday cake and worried Milton mumbles "the ratio of people to cake is too high".

Office Space (1999) - Milton Cake Scene

I really enjoy your stories, you have an interesting life down there. More please!

Hang on a mo...

A woman who you believe is morally corrupt wants to bring another woman to your house and you're complaining?
I'd agree and hope like hell the new one was morally corrupt as well.

Fred wrote:

Hang on a mo...

A woman who you believe is morally corrupt wants to bring another woman to your house and you're complaining?
I'd agree and hope like hell the new one was morally corrupt as well.

You missed the part where it's actually at *her* house with both her parents downstairs. Even morally corrupt won't lead to much bed action, I sadly believe  But seriously "morally corrupt" is an overstatement.

On a positive note, she told me "thank you" by text after our movie night, which is a rare occasion I ever got a "thank you" after inviting a Vietnamese woman out.

gobot wrote:

1. Vietnamese are always negotiating, but I don't think that's what she was doing.
2. She wasn't asking you for money
3. She was helping the lady for free (nice) and thought it might be fun or less boring for you (nice)
4. Vietnamese are social, more people the better.
5. She showed her respect to you by asking if it would be ok. She could have just invited the lady.
6. It didn't cross her mind that you would feel cheated.
7. Ok, she was a little thoughtless or naive because of #6.
8. Anyway, it was fine that you said no. Perhaps she feels complimented that your time with her is valuable to you.
You know the 1990s movie Office Space? Your reaction, analyzing how you will receive x% less instruction per hour, reminded me of the scene where the secretary is cutting pieces of birthday cake and worried Milton mumbles "the ratio of people to cake is too high".

Thanks for your input, you make real good points and I'm pretty sure you're right, I'm again making too much of a big deal of it... but the part about calculating % of what I'm going to lose, it's not really about that. It's just that my time is precious and sharing that private class with a complete beginner will cut my learning time by 50%, that's kind of a lot when all you got is 8 hours a month, it makes a big difference.

She is like MOST people - she was seeing how far she could go. I've had this with long-time professional business people - ALL OF THE TIME. They try to get something for nothing - or very little. IMO...  it's the way of the world.

johnross23 wrote:

Have you met this "western" woman? She may be very attractive but not obsessed with getting married. Possibly, a lost opportunity to meet someone a little less repressed...

Or, perhaps your teacher fears being alone with you and needs to bring a friend along similar to your dates?

Perhaps she is looking at setting up a threesome?

WillyBaldy wrote:

On a positive note, she told me "thank you" by text after our movie night, which is a rare occasion I ever got a "thank you" after inviting a Vietnamese woman out.

Since childhood, 99% of Vietnamese have never taught to use the word "thank you" unless in special occasions or to their elders.  They would compliment the food cooked and served by the hostess but they never actually say thanks.  Little things being done for them by their families and friends are taken for granted, without a word of appreciation.

Vendors have asked me repeatedly why I thanked them when they were the ones who benefit from the transactions.  Ten times out of ten, when they hear me saying thanks to my husband for the littlest things he does for me, they would say, "You're so polite / formal."

Among the English speaking professional Vietnamese, the "yes'' is rarely accompanied by "please", and the "no" never precedes "thanks".

This careless attitude is among the hot topics on Vietnamese online newspapers.

Ciambella wrote:

Among the English speaking professional Vietnamese, the "yes'' is rarely accompanied by "please", and the "no" never precedes "thanks".

This careless attitude is among the hot topics on Vietnamese online newspapers.

But from your point of view, do you think Vietnamese people should learn to be more "polite" ? It should start with school at a younger age...

WillyBaldy wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

Among the English speaking professional Vietnamese, the "yes'' is rarely accompanied by "please", and the "no" never precedes "thanks".

This careless attitude is among the hot topics on Vietnamese online newspapers.

But from your point of view, do you think Vietnamese people should learn to be more "polite" ? It should start with school at a younger age...

To paraphrase a popular meme, Let's not 'should' on the Vietnamese... 😉

WillyBaldy wrote:

But from your point of view, do you think Vietnamese people should learn to be more "polite" ? It should start with school at a younger age...

Yes, they should. They should also learn not to litter, not to dig for gold, not to pull up their shirts to the chests to expose their bellies, not to spit, etc.  Vietnamese media have been after them for a long while now.  Will those behaviours ever end?  Not in my life time.

Sorry to say, but the "morally suspicious" behavior seems to be the person paying for English lessons to get a date.

Ciambella wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

But from your point of view, do you think Vietnamese people should learn to be more "polite" ? It should start with school at a younger age...

Yes, they should. They should also learn not to litter, not to dig for gold, not to pull up their shirts to the chests to expose their bellies, not to spit, etc.  Vietnamese media have been after them for a long while now.  Will those behaviours ever end?  Not in my life time.

I was watching the movie "chi chi em em" recently in Rach Gia CGV and people were literally speaking on their phone WHILE the movie was playing. I was tempted to say something but then I told myself it was not my country, so suck it up... but it's very annoying because they even have advertisement at the beginning of the movie that tells people NOT to use their phone, what gives?

I remember 10 years ago, when watching movies in Saigon you'd have this advertisement at the beginning of some local 'tribes' from the North of Vietnam acting like 'monkeys' and then they'd tell the audience not to act like then... First of all I thought it was very racist, but second of all it didn't seem to work well...

726dbr wrote:

Sorry to say, but the "morally suspicious" behavior seems to be the person paying for English lessons to get a date.

Are you referencing me? I'm actually paying for Vietnamese lessons, and certainly don't need lessons here to get dates. I do want to learn Vietnamese though.

***

Cultural differences.  Which by definition can be moral and ethics differences.  But by definition does not make one side right and the other side wrong.

Back in the days (1997?) I saw Americans raising a fuss over the fact that the prices of Coca-cola and Sprite were different in VN supermarket.

gobot wrote:

4. Vietnamese are social, more people the better.

If I had to pick one 'answer' from this thread, this would be it.

WillyBaldy wrote:

On a positive note, she told me "thank you" by text after our movie night, which is a rare occasion I ever got a "thank you" after inviting a Vietnamese woman out.

Ravish them with greater zeal!   

Ciambella wrote:

Since childhood, 99% of Vietnamese have never taught to use the word "thank you" unless in special occasions or to their elders.  They would compliment the food cooked and served by the hostess but they never actually say thanks.  Little things being done for them by their families and friends are taken for granted, without a word of appreciation.

Vendors have asked me repeatedly why I thanked them when they were the ones who benefit from the transactions.  Ten times out of ten, when they hear me saying thanks to my husband for the littlest things he does for me, they would say, "You're so polite / formal."

Among the English speaking professional Vietnamese, the "yes'' is rarely accompanied by "please", and the "no" never precedes "thanks".

This careless attitude is among the hot topics on Vietnamese online newspapers.

My take on this as a clueless Englishman, a nation generally obsessed with trivial and superficial politeness, is as follows, and relates back to Gobot's post that I began with:

The Vietnamese reticence concerning 'please' and 'thank you' seems odd to a lot of foreigners, perhaps a little rude, but on the other hand I've been out with a Vietnamese friend many times and they've casually struck up a very friendly conversation with a complete stranger, with absolutely none of the social awkwardness that might accompany such a venture in the West.

The first few times I witnessed this I just assumed my girlfriend was indeed talking to an old friend, I was surprised to learn that before that instant, they had never clapped eyes on each other.

And this is despite that fact that life for most Vietnamese is hard in a way that foreigners who hail from countries with social safety nets struggle, I think, to appreciate. If you don't work, if you haven't got some hustle, you don't eat, period. It's a much harsher reality than foreigners from more affluent nations are accustomed to, yet despite the ruthless competition, the Vietnamese retain an amazing (to me anyway) social ease most of the time.

Anyway, not wasting time with meaningless platitudes is another thing about the Vietnamese that I have come to admire.

Ciambella wrote:

Yes, they should. They should also learn not to litter, not to dig for gold, not to pull up their shirts to the chests to expose their bellies, not to spit, etc.

The guys pulling their shirts up to air their blubber is definitely weird. They'd be better off popping their arms out to vent their pits, if ventilation is the goal. If I had a gut like that I'd hide it. But it's not just the Vietnamese, many Asian guys seem to do this, I've seen plenty of affluent Koreans in Nha Trang waddling around with their spare tires on display to the world. Maybe they are just trying to emulate what they perceive to be the local fashion, who knows?

Do Korean men and women eat radically different diets? The women are almost universally slim, but half the Korean men I see look like they might actually be pregnant. 

So, I was at the cinema in Rach Gia with a female friend of mine and a group of Vietnamese people were talking very loudly, as if they were in their living room, in spite of the little advertisement at the beginning kindly asking people not to act like monkeys. Well, at one point it was too much for me, I could not focus on the movie and I shouted "con khi" to them. I don't think they understood or cared, but my friend did not understand why I was upset, and of course she spent half of the movie on her smartphone. I'm very open to other cultures and cultural differences, but here there's something very odd because they *should* know they're acting like monkeys, they're even being told how to act at the beginning of the movie. This is slowly getting to me.

WillyBaldy wrote:

So, I was at the cinema in Rach Gia with a female friend of mine and a group of Vietnamese people were talking very loudly, as if they were in their living room, in spite of the little advertisement at the beginning kindly asking people not to act like monkeys. Well, at one point it was too much for me, I could not focus on the movie and I shouted "con khi" to them. I don't think they understood or cared, but my friend did not understand why I was upset, and of course she spent half of the movie on her smartphone. I'm very open to other cultures and cultural differences, but here there's something very odd because they *should* know they're acting like monkeys, they're even being told how to act at the beginning of the movie. This is slowly getting to me.

You're lucky they wern't smoking.

colinoscapee wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

So, I was at the cinema in Rach Gia with a female friend of mine and a group of Vietnamese people were talking very loudly, as if they were in their living room, in spite of the little advertisement at the beginning kindly asking people not to act like monkeys. Well, at one point it was too much for me, I could not focus on the movie and I shouted "con khi" to them. I don't think they understood or cared, but my friend did not understand why I was upset, and of course she spent half of the movie on her smartphone. I'm very open to other cultures and cultural differences, but here there's something very odd because they *should* know they're acting like monkeys, they're even being told how to act at the beginning of the movie. This is slowly getting to me.

You're lucky they wern't smoking.

Jesus, if that ever happens, I'll leave the room right away. That'd be a bit too much for me to handle.

Some people, regardless of race, are just rude and have no consideration for others. Here in Ninh Binh at a local restaurant, for the past few days a small group of tourists have assembled and made it unpleasant for others. They bring with them a huge powered speaker through which they play loud music from their phones. They sit for hours, drink a huge amount, shout and laugh with each other and anyone else who will join in, and they all smoke.
The owner of the restaurant has told me she doesn't know how to deal with this without giving offence, one of them has even set up a makeshift stall outside the restaurant to sell his homemade bits and pieces. I don't know where these people come from but they are definitely not Vietnamese.

Malcolmleitrim wrote:

Some people, regardless of race, are just rude and have no consideration for others. Here in Ninh Binh at a local restaurant, for the past few days a small group of tourists have assembled and made it unpleasant for others. They bring with them a huge powered speaker through which they play loud music from their phones. They sit for hours, drink a huge amount, shout and laugh with each other and anyone else who will join in, and they all smoke.
The owner of the restaurant has told me she doesn't know how to deal with this without giving offence, one of them has even set up a makeshift stall outside the restaurant to sell his homemade bits and pieces. I don't know where these people come from but they are definitely not Vietnamese.

If they are not Vietnamese, then surely she can have the police move them on.

WillyBaldy wrote:

So, I was at the cinema in Rach Gia with a female friend of mine and a group of Vietnamese people were talking very loudly, as if they were in their living room, in spite of the little advertisement at the beginning kindly asking people not to act like monkeys. Well, at one point it was too much for me, I could not focus on the movie and I shouted "con khi" to them. I don't think they understood or cared, but my friend did not understand why I was upset, and of course she spent half of the movie on her smartphone. I'm very open to other cultures and cultural differences, but here there's something very odd because they *should* know they're acting like monkeys, they're even being told how to act at the beginning of the movie. This is slowly getting to me.

The Vietnamese are highly social folk. Perhaps, to them, the social gathering was more important than whatever piece of cinematic high art was being shown. Yeah, I know, it's a cinema not a pub, but one of the things that had been 'getting to me' for many years in the West was the mindless dronelike obesiance to the ever-growing grimoire of daft rules and regulations that everyone is supposed to conform to.

So, long may the Vietnamese retain their easy disdain for authority! Calling them monkeys is a bit harsh, I think. It's their country...

That said, sometimes I still have a brief moment of WTF-gggrrrrrr! when someone parks their bike right across my path as I'm wandering down the sidewalk. In England, that would be rude, I'd pick it up and chuck it out of my way, then kick its pilot after it. But I remind myself that this isn't England, and the primary purpose of a sidewalk in VN is for parking one's bike, because you can walk perfectly well in the road. Albeit you then risk death by vehicle instead of death by tripping over broken lumps of concrete and falling headfirst down a construction hole. 

Malcolmleitrim wrote:

Some people, regardless of race, are just rude and have no consideration for others. Here in Ninh Binh at a local restaurant, for the past few days a small group of tourists have assembled and made it unpleasant for others. They bring with them a huge powered speaker through which they play loud music from their phones. They sit for hours, drink a huge amount, shout and laugh with each other and anyone else who will join in, and they all smoke.
The owner of the restaurant has told me she doesn't know how to deal with this without giving offence, one of them has even set up a makeshift stall outside the restaurant to sell his homemade bits and pieces. I don't know where these people come from but they are definitely not Vietnamese.

Pikeys in Vietnam? Way worse than Covid19!

What does it matter whose country it is. Shouting in to a phone in the cinema is pretty primitive.

sanooku wrote:

What does it matter whose country it is. Shouting in to a phone in the cinema is pretty primitive.

If I recall, you couldn't find your own brake pads. You're in no poition to be calling anyone else primitive.

[Post under review]

Brick23 wrote:

WillyBaldy wrote:

That said, sometimes I still have a brief moment of WTF-gggrrrrrr! when someone parks their bike right across my path as I'm wandering down the sidewalk. In England, that would be rude, I'd pick it up and chuck it out of my way, then kick its pilot after it. But I remind myself that this isn't England, and the primary purpose of a sidewalk in VN is for parking one's bike, because you can walk perfectly well in the road. Albeit you then risk death by vehicle instead of death by tripping over broken lumps of concrete and falling headfirst down a construction hole. 

The one thing that suprisedme on my first and second trip is how little VN people like to queue
I remember at the airport they just casually stroll tk the front of the line...

[Post under review]

sanooku wrote:

Result of manhole cover theft in China:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bivfxzpq8d4d3 … .jpg?raw=1
Picture is from 2011. Not sure if it happens anymore. or happens here in Vietnam.

colinoscapee wrote:

Malcolmleitrim wrote:

Some people, regardless of race, are just rude and have no consideration for others. Here in Ninh Binh at a local restaurant, for the past few days a small group of tourists have assembled and made it unpleasant for others. They bring with them a huge powered speaker through which they play loud music from their phones. They sit for hours, drink a huge amount, shout and laugh with each other and anyone else who will join in, and they all smoke.
The owner of the restaurant has told me she doesn't know how to deal with this without giving offence, one of them has even set up a makeshift stall outside the restaurant to sell his homemade bits and pieces. I don't know where these people come from but they are definitely not Vietnamese.

If they are not Vietnamese, then surely she can have the police move them on.

I think calling the police might be considered a bit extreme. From my experience here, most Vietnamese try to avoid all contact with the police. Anyway they've now decamped to Halong Bay apparently, so peace and quiet returns and it has become someone else's problem.