Mirador San Jose.

Am going to be of  no help to your inquiry. Sorry about that. May I ask if you are moving to the project Mirador San Jose? Bit confused if there is actually a town in Ecuador named Mirador San Jose, or is that the developments name? Only asking because I started a thread a month or two ago inquiring about Mirador San Jose, and had no responses. Thought it looked like an interesting project, and looked like there was a lot of progress.

Yes I am referring to the development and progress seems to be going well.
It's a pity you have had no response - on the French site they have had over 1700 replies !. My French is not too hot so I have used the Google translation option. Unfortunately none of the queries I have raised seem to have been answered.

Dackombe wrote:

I am moving to Mirador next year and would appreciate any comments on the following.

a. Taxi availability and costs, to say Manta and Puerto Cayo.

b. Local coach costs to Manta.

c. Eating :  What is available ( type of food, costs etc ).

d. Cycle hire is available, but no details are given on their web site.

Thank you.

I don't know either but I don't think you mention your departure point is (Guayaquil or Quito airport?)

Edit:
Nevermind. I see that you are coming from Quito airport.

Have you been to the property since you purchased it? Was it property titled under the new urbanization laws and do you have electric and water to your unit?

Yes Susan.

That development is being built by a Canadian company (http://holaecuador.net/). When I was in Ecuador I was building a number of city portal sites and I contacted the company with a number of questions about the development. They were very forthcoming and helpful so you might try them directly.

You didn't say where you were from but I might also mention that the development has been very popular with Canadians. Some fifty-four percent of the lots were purchased by Canadians.

Good luck with your move.

Radio-Canada did a report a few weeks ago about a possible fraud in this project.

http://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/100 … n-equateur

Again, sorry, it's only in French. I know quite a lot of people involved in this project and the opinions vary greatly from one to another. Like for any investment of this type, I would urge anyone to visit before they buy/build and make sure this is where you want to live and spend your old days.

SJM is about 1 hour drive to the SuperMaxi grocery store in Manta. I am not sure about the cost of an taxi but I am guessing at least $30 one way. Since one is charged $15 to get to Santa Marianita and that is only 20 min south of Manta.

I believe that there is an incorrect statement made. SanJose Mirador is a company that sells and manages the Developement. HolaEcuador is a builder within this project.

Thank you all for your comments.

Huge warning with red flags.

The builder is by Canadian Marcel Cloutier  who's project was investigated by French Canadian Journalists which is a very risky thing to invest according to this investigative report.

http://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/100 … n-equateur I will use google to translate for you. Please forgive me for the mistakes that google translate makes.

There is also a video on the page, but it is in French. The translation of the news article will help you understand.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Risk of investing in Ecuador

A huge real estate development project in Ecuador raises fears, the Mirador San José, driven by Canadian Quebecers. Acts of sale are problematic, according to specialists. There are also other issues that would make this investment risky.

Many buyers were surprised when they received their deed of sale of land they had just purchased from the Mirador. The price indicated was well below what they had paid.

Jean-Pol Martin bought his land in 2014 to build a house for his retirement. He paid his land over $ 20,000, but on the bill of sale he received a month later, the price quoted was $ 1279. That's 15 times lower.

    I asked the question. I was told they were doing it like that, that it was for a tax issue.
    Jean-Pol Martin

The direction of the Mirador ensures that the process is legal; The amount indicated would represent the municipal assessment of the land. In a statement, she argues that this system was the subject of a "thorough government audit" which earned her "congratulations from the authorities".

We consulted four Ecuadorian experts. All believe, on the contrary, that the process is illegal and that the Mirador must inscribe the price actually paid on the deeds of sale.

Humberto Moya, Vice President Federation of Notaries of Ecuador is categorical. The Mirador and the buyers "participate in tax evasion against the municipality". They would be subject to criminal prosecution.

A lot of Canadians are among buyers. The property development project includes 1,700 lots. Work began in 2009. Seven years later, the Mirador is still trying to sell the remaining 450 lots.

Problems with infrastructure

The Mirador presents itself as an ecological project. But it faces problems with the system chosen to treat wastewater. On 22 September, the general manager of the Mirador was reassuring. "The biodigester works very well," said Marcel Cloutier, adding that the engineers who doubted "do not know what they are talking about".
The Mirador project in Ecuador
The Mirador project in Ecuador. Photo: Radio-Canada

However, a month later, the Mirador will admit that "this technology is not performing well". The land is too small to absorb the water discharged by the system in place. The Mirador management is committed to building sewers and a "water treatment center".

Professor Unsal Ozdilek of the School of Management Sciences at the Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM) said the developers should have tested this technology from the start. The big infrastructure, "we do not put them to the end," he said.

Director of the UQAM Real Estate Program, Unsal Ozdilek adds that problems with property titles increase risks for buyers. He severely judges the company.

    This is not a serious real estate company. People should pay attention to this kind of editing.
    Unsal Ozdilek, professor at UQAM

Ozdilek also cautions future buyers, saying they "risk their money". An opinion shared by other experts consulted.

The Mirador management provides the financial capacity to complete the infrastructure works. It argues that it will use its liquidity and, if necessary, borrowing or reinvestment of shareholders.

Many other infrastructure such as swimming pools, soccer field, main roads and a 3 km concrete wall have already been completed.

A controversial promoter

The general manager of the Mirador, Marcel Cloutier, is not unanimous. Some see him as a good manager who steers the project with a firm hand. Others, on the contrary, deplore its authoritarian style and its lack of transparency.

In a statement sent on October 13, the Mirador apologized to the owners "for not giving the importance importance to the communications". Since then, the management of the Mirador regularly sends them newsletters.

In the past, Marcel Cloutier was pursued by his brother with whom he was a partner in a real estate development company. Roberto Cloutier alleged in 2010 that Marcel Cloutier had hijacked $ 1.8 million from their company. In an intermediate judgment available on the Internet http://www.canlii.org/fr/qc/qccs/doc/20 … s4270.html , Justice Brian Riordon of the Superior Court deplores his "unreliability in financial matters". Marcel Cloutier has even tried to "mislead the court". The judge ordered a seizure before judgment of the property of Marcel Cloutier.

Marcel Cloutier alleges in defense that the payments were legitimate. The case was settled amicably. Roberto Cloutier is now the sole owner of the company.

Marcel Cloutier also had major difficulties with another of his companies, Crumbco International, which was shredding tires. From 2005 to 2012, the firefighters of Sainte-Anne-des-Plaines intervened 32 times with Crumbco at that time. Criminal prosecutions resulted in convictions for $ 32,000. Crumbco went bankrupt in 2011.

Many buyers were surprised when they received their deed of sale of land they had just purchased from the Mirador. The price indicated was well below what they had paid.

Jean-Pol Martin bought his land in 2014 to build a house for his retirement. He paid his land over $ 20,000, but on the bill of sale he received a month later, the price quoted was $ 1279. That's 15 times lower.

    I asked the question. I was told they were doing it like that, that it was for a tax issue.
    Jean-Pol Martin

Not following this thread very closely. Just wanted to comment that the deeed of my house in Cuenca reflects 1/4 the purchase price. That was to minimize real estate taxes. Very common I have been told.

Nards Barley wrote:

Not following this thread very closely. Just wanted to comment that the deeed of my house in Cuenca reflects 1/4 the purchase price. That was to minimize real estate taxes. Very common I have been told.

Nards, Just below it says it is tax evasion and can get one on a criminal offense. Have to be careful and double check if you are on the legal side.

We consulted four Ecuadorian experts. All believe, on the contrary, that the process is illegal and that the Mirador must inscribe the price actually paid on the deeds of sale.

Humberto Moya, Vice President Federation of Notaries of Ecuador is categorical. The Mirador and the buyers "participate in tax evasion against the municipality". They would be subject to criminal prosecution.

Thanks for the translation Molari

Regarding Mirador San Jose titles (if your are referring to the program La Facture which was, like the majority of the subjects in this program,  a negative and "biaisée" way of informing people : " (...) independent analyses undertaken by two reputable law firms in Quito also both confirmed that the Mirador San Jose did not commit any fraud.  Nor did you, the property owner.  The municipality of Montecristi absolutely cannot sue our business nor the property owners in relation with this administrative error (...)." " (...) it is common knowledge that in the region, everyone proceeds like the Mirador San Jose.  Indeed research in jurisprudence has revealed that there has not been a single prosecution in any rural area of Ecuador with regards to incorrect values on property titles."
Some people are paid by competitors to give false or incorrect  information relating to Mirador San Jose.

Sorry you doubt a serious investigative show as "La facture"  which is a consumer protection show...it is a bit like 60 minutes but for consumers. Plus this was on Radio Canada, French equivalent of CBC News. You want to doubt a news organization, that is your business/
If you want to plunge full force into investing Mirador San Jose, knock yourself out, buddy. No one here stopping you.

And to your accusation theory that I am paid to post the info that was on a news org, that is just silly foolish thinking on your part. I point out, that you are the one asking us for information with your first post.
I only translated to you what was said in the news,. no need to reply anymore dribble.

Dackombe wrote:

Regarding Mirador San Jose titles (if your are referring to the program La Facture which was, like the majority of the subjects in this program,  a negative and "biaisée" way of informing people : " (...) independent analyses undertaken by two reputable law firms in Quito also both confirmed that the Mirador San Jose did not commit any fraud.  Nor did you, the property owner.  The municipality of Montecristi absolutely cannot sue our business nor the property owners in relation with this administrative error (...)." " (...) it is common knowledge that in the region, everyone proceeds like the Mirador San Jose.  Indeed research in jurisprudence has revealed that there has not been a single prosecution in any rural area of Ecuador with regards to incorrect values on property titles."
Some people are paid by competitors to give false or incorrect  information relating to Mirador San Jose.

Dackombe, what are your sources?

Capital gain is taxable in Ecuador, period. There's a huge gap between, "no worry you won't get caught" and "this is the law".

If you pay your home $100k and sell it in 10 years for $200k, you made a $100k capital gain, which is taxable at about 25% (correct me if I'm wrong) and you'll have to pay a 5% tax to bring back the balance in a foreign country if that's what you want.

That's a balance of $166,250.

If you "play the game", you could end up with more money (basically a little less than $190,000 depending on the new fake value of the transaction), but you could also end up with a loss less.

If your notarized purchase price was $20,000 (instead of $100,000), you need to convince the buyer to accept to reduce the transaction price, otherwise you would pay capital gain tax over $180,000 profit ($45,000) plus your 5% which will end up to $147,250.

How can you be sure that 10 years down the road, this scheme will still be tolerated by authorities? How can you be sure you couldn't end up paying a big penalty or even going to jail?

Remember, you are in a foreign country. If you don't follow the rules, you do it at your own risks. Telling others that there is no risk is a little cowboy in my humble opinion.

yulrun wrote:

How can you be sure that 10 years down the road, this scheme will still be tolerated by authorities? How can you be sure you couldn't end up paying a big penalty or even going to jail?

Remember, you are in a foreign country. If you don't follow the rules, you do it at your own risks. Telling others that there is no risk is a little cowboy in my humble opinion.

I would rather believe those that are genuine experts in the field such as the Vice President of the Federation of Notaries of Ecuador, Humberto Moya.

Obviously Dackombe has his mind set, no use to debate anything with him because we are all wrong and paid to link up to news sources. ^^

Let him go in peace. ;  )

My husband and I were initially attracted to look at Ecuador for retirement as we had heard how affordable it is to live and to buy real estate, not to mention the great climate. We attended a seminar on the SJM development a couple of years ago and were very close to paying a deposit on a piece of land when we found some disturbing information on the Internet about the whole Hola Ecuador development which appears to have changed ownership at least twice, for reasons unknown.  When we asked the sales person about the other websites they said they had no knowledge of them - they now appear to have been removed from the Internet as no amount of Googling can find them now. We also saw pictures of other houses in the development which were a far cry from what was being promoted at the seminar - wooden houses (one half on stilts) with "grass" (palm) type roofs.  The salesman also knew nothing about these houses. Granted, there are some lots which are owned by other builders who may have the right to put different types of structures up, but what we saw are much older building which do not fit in with the development.
We decided to come to Ecuador to see for ourselves, firstly, whether we liked the country as a whole for our retirement plans, secondly, to take a closer look at the SJM development as they are still advertising seminars in various places in Canada, which also seemed strange to us because we were told by the salesman two years ago that the lots were selling out fast so we needed to move quickly if we wanted to secure one, and thirdly to check on the actual cost of living.
SJM is more than an hour's drive from Manta - we estimate it to be at least an hour and a half, given the roads (which are not in bad condition but are windy with constantly changing speed limits as you pass through smaller villages). Between Manta and SJM there are small coastal villages (San Mateo, Santa Marianita, San Lorenzo) along the way, none of which have any kind of supermarket or grocery store, just very small convenience shops selling milk, water, beers and soft drinks but nothing substantial.
When asked about language problems in Ecuador, the sales person said that it is not a problem "everyone speaks English" - well we are yet to find an English speaking person even in Supermaxi, the big supermarket in Manta, the gas service stations, the restaurants and bars we have been to for sundowners or dinners or even the Police when we stopped to ask for directions in Manta.
We found a YouTube video on Hola Ecuador's website that is dated May 11, 2016 taken from a drone flying over SJM (https://www.youtube.com/user/miradorsanjosemanabi).  The place looked pretty barren with only a few houses having been completed.  Yet, when we arrived at SJM, we were surprised to see that there were quite a number of houses that had been constructed obviously some time ago as people had already put in gardens and you could see they have been settled there for some time.  Very strange.  At the time we went to the seminar two years ago, we were shown renderings of the different types of houses on offer and although the sales person had only recently been to SJM before the seminar, he had no up to date photos of actual houses that he could show us, exterior or interior, (except for one of a middle aged couple who had theirs built). We found one of the wooden houses that we had seen on the Internet but which now has plastic over the roofing, probably because of the large amount of rain they have had this season. Additionally, we found a couple of really run down brick houses which do not fit in with the rest of the development.  Who owns these houses we do not know and whether they are to be demolished and rebuilt to fit into the development is also a question to be answered.
According to the information given to us at the seminar, there is a five year time limit to build your house once you have bought the land.  Looking at the development now, it is going to be a construction site for the next 5 to 8 years at least in order to complete all the buildings in the allotted timeframe. Some of the roads inside the development have also not been finished.
We are also concerned to now see the comments that have been posted regarding the incorrect sales price being stated on the title which can result in both parties being prosecuted.
As far as the cost of living is concerned, there are many things that are really inexpensive such as eating out in restaurants (US$25 for two main courses, a couple of beers and a couple of glasses of wine), some groceries are really much cheaper than back home in Canada, gas is very cheap at US$2.20/gallon, and local beers, spirits and wines from Argentina, Chile etc are not badly priced. However, due to the 40% tax imposed on anything imported, the cost of cars, imported liquor, electronic goods etc are very expensive. Quality of vegetables and fruit is pretty good, meat from the supermarket not badly priced but not great quality (steaks were tough, chicken was not bad quality), though we heard there are a couple of butchers in Manta who sell very good meat, but finding them, especially for vacationers, is difficult. So it depends on the standard of living you want to maintain in Ecuador as to how cheap it is to live. Manta is an extremely difficult city to drive in, there appears to be few road rules and it is manic. Also on the roads between villages, be extremely careful as the drivers here pay no heed to double yellow lines, blind corners or blind rises and travel way over the speed limit.
Certainly we wish all those who have invested and those who will still invest in this development all the very best and hope that it works out well at the end of the day, but we have now once and for all decided that both this project and Ecuador are not where we plan to retire.

Aquagem wrote:

When asked about language problems in Ecuador, the salesman said it’s not a problem “everybody speaks English"....

--------

 

Whereas the line about everyone speaking English is an outright ‘fib,’ the five-year timeline is a bit more complicated.

Your BS detector apparently saved y’all from doing the pre-construction deal that has sunk so many Expats in South America.

Five years becomes seven, becomes eight, even longer.

When I bought a pre-construction condo in Quito and paid for it in 2005 .. it was understood that a large city-block of old existing buildings would have to be cleared for condos .. an underground parking area would have to be created .. and then the 90 condo units in the project would have to be built.

What was less obvious was that ownership of the project would change hands twice .. construction would be as slow as the proverbial molasses .. and my attorney would keep losing focus.  In truth, at times, so did I.

We finally closed in June of 2013, eight years after my final payment, excluding closing costs.

----

As the delays mounted, at first I was fine with the slow progress.  After all, the contract stated that I would be given an $8,000 concession (multa) if they didn’t meet the construction deadline.  Which they didn’t come close to meeting.

What I learned only later, well after the deadline was missed, was that this penalty would not simply be refunded/deposited into my bank account.

Oh, no -- I would have to pay $3,000 in legal costs merely to sue for the refund.

That instantly reduced my potential net refund to $5,000.  After discussing the possible suit with my attorney, I realized that pressing in court for a refund would subject me to more molasses-like delays, potential twists and turns .. and the possibility some technicality could be invoked and I could lose the potential $5,000 .. on top of the $3,000 in legal costs.

So I figured, forget it.  Chalk it up to experience:  South American pre-construction deals are a gamble .. and not exactly stacked in the buyer’s favor.

So, congratulations, Aquagem, your decision lets you off the hook from delays .. slow progress .. and even more delays.  Who knows -- the developer could go bankrupt along the way and then where are you?

My condo finally got built and I lived in it for years starting in July 2013.

However, that will be my last pre-construction purchase in South America.

cccmedia

My preconstruction condo also had a 20% whatever you called it, on the original sale price if it wasn't completed after one year stated in the sales agreement.  It would have been around $18,000.  We sold after 2 years of not being completed and told the buyers they would have to fight for it.  They knew the builders who told them outright they weren't paying it because the delays were out of their control.  I, like you, will never buy pre construction here again either.  Since the earthquake and seeing what some of these condos looked like before the repairs that were hurriedly done, I also wouldn't live in a condo on the beach here either.  I did read an article that I just recently happened upon, on the earthquake and the building I had bought in.  It was done by a US architect and the seismic institute here and my building held up pretty good, but we would have lost lots of equity and who knows for how long.  Doesn't look good any time soon.

I own land there. It is coming along and it went through some leadership changes. It is Ecuador so things take alot longer than in USA. When they started with 1600 home sites and infrastructure in 5 years I knew it would be delayed. Once you are there and get to know the people and the language costs will come down such as taxi and food etc.... I drove many times from Manta to SJM and even rode motorcycles a couple times. It is about a 40 minute ride. Way better than stock market but of course risky as with any high reward investment. Just like casino. If you are willing to lose dont gamble. You will  fit in fine. People are very friendly. Safer than most US cities! Hire a ecuadorean if needed for better pricing on everything! Enjoy!!

tocoma3 wrote:

risky as with any high reward investment. Just like casino. If you are willing to lose dont gamble.

I think Tocoma means if you are not willing to lose, don't gamble.  The famous casino saying is 'Don't gamble with money you can't afford to lose.'  The same thing is often said about speculating in the market.

By  the way, if you encounter a casino on the Ecuador coast, don't enter.  It's a clandestino. 

Not a place where a Gringo can expect to win money and safely exit with the winnings intact.

cccmedia near the Ecuador-Colombia border

tocoma3 wrote:

Way better than stock market but of course risky as with any high reward investment.

Buying pre-construction property in South America is way more risky than North American stock markets ..  provided you're primarily investing and not speculating in the market.

If you look at a chart of Wall Street results for the past 100-plus years, you'll see that the uptrend is always intact in the long run.  Naturally there are pullbacks and multi-year recessions such as 2001-02 and circa 2008.  But the markets have always recovered and advanced higher.

----

Also, in the markets you can diversify through ETF investing .. and/or acquiring equities across a broad range of sectors.  In the case of buying a single property, you are not normally diversified.

cccmedia

Yes, I missed the "not"

Of course I see now that is from 2006 so it would be interesting to see how they are getting along there.

2016

@Aquagem

I am amazed at your write up

I fully appreciate the effort you have put in to make this a true look at Hola.

My son was looking to move there about 8 years ago

Our whole family decided to meet him in Manta and vacation there with his intended stay

We drove all over Manta to Quayaquil

All kinds of arrangements were made to stay. We were staying on the ocean at Hola

He was looking for a home and 2 weeks later he came to me " I guess we are not staying, see you at home in yyc."

Your description is right on the money for everything

I did meet MARCEL the manager at the time.  He told a good story as a salesman should. I really didn,t believe it.

Not the place to be if you are NOT one to be laid back and want a sedate  life style

The only person who was actually making a go of it financially was the taxi service run by Francois. Very nice person indeed

In closing thanks for a VERY HONEST review, considering I have seen the property with my own eyes