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transfer money to Brazil

timhoffnagle
I am trying to help my girlfriend's buy an apartment for her daughter and tried to send some money ($100,000) to her bank.  However, I just got an email that the Brazilian bank rejected the transfer.  Does anyone know why the payment might have been rejected and how to fix it?  We actually had a loan contract drawn up by a Brazilian attorney, so this is not a gift.
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abthree
07/01/22  Hi, Tim.  It's hard to judge from the information you provide why the transfer would have been rejected.  Didn't the email you received from the bank give you any reasons?

A large transfer from a person abroad to an (apparently) unrelated person in Brazil will always set off alarms; this is why I always counsel people to advise their bank in advance (like, by a week at least) of any large impending transfer.  Still, I would have expected the Central Bank/Federal Police/receiving bank to request additional information rather than to reject the transfer outright, even if there was a mismatch between the purpose of the transfer at the originating end and the purpose given at the receiving end, which is about the most serious legitimate reason I can think of.

I would suggest that on Monday, whoever owns the account that was to receive the transfer talk to his/her bank manager to find out why the transfer was rejected, explain to the manager what's going on, and ask for guidance on how to get it through when it's re-sent.
Texanbrazil
Agree with abthree. Even when I try to buy a car, I had to meet with my bank's manager and walk over to Banco do Brazil.
Due to money laundering laws, all wires are reviewed. For almost 2 years I had to provide my financials to my bank.
I do not know the amount as of today but, it was only $4,000.o U$ per month could be sent to Brazil.
The next thing you can do is ask your attorney. To buy a condo I had my attorney and my agent handle the transfer.
Also, consider the tax complications of depositing directly to your girlfriend!
timhoffnagle
HI abthree,

Thanks for the advice - that's what I have suggested to my girlfriend.  I used Xe to transfer the money and the email that I got from them simply said, "We’ve been advised that your payment for contract C11867800 BRL 257,305.00 has been returned. The correspondent bank has rejected the payment." and that they will return the money to me.  I have made smaller transfers in the past, without a problem.  Do you have any suggestions for future money transfers, small or large?

Tim
abthree
07/01/22 Hi, Tim,

Just the same old, same old that I always tell people:

-- Take advantage of any opportunity to develop personal relationships at the bank -- in a high-touch society like this, being known as "um cara legal" can smooth over an amazing number of bumps in the road. 

-- Be aware of how sensitive Brazil is about money laundering:  they're serious, they're not just trying to impress the US or Europe.  Always make sure that big transfers are explained and expected.

-- Be aware of what sets off alarms.  At least at Banco do Brasil, you can release a transfer of US $3000 or less yourself on your phone; anything larger requires manual intervention at the bank.  I believe that there's a monthly ceiling, as well.

-- Be as regular as you can, and the system will adjust to you.  I transfer the same amount, on the same day, every month to pay our monthly expenses.  When I first moved here, I had to go to the bank every month to release it.  After a while, it was released automatically in two or three days.  Now, my US bank wires it in the morning, and I can release it on my phone the same afternoon.  The system recognized and accommodates the pattern.
Tim7711
@timhoffnagle
To my understanding, you can only send less than 10,000$ Dollars in one year to someone other than yourself without having to fill out forms and such and report it. Also some banks I can send myself American dollars (I use transfer wise) and others are more difficult as well.  So the key is sending the money here to yourself. I had to wait a long time until I got my RNE to open a bank account
rraypo
@timhoffnagle
To my understanding, you can only send less than 10,000$ Dollars in one year to someone other than yourself without having to fill out forms and such and report it. Also some banks I can send myself American dollars (I use transfer wise) and others are more difficult as well.  So the key is sending the money here to yourself. I had to wait a long time until I got my RNE to open a bank account
- @Tim7711

Having a bank account in Brazil most certainly made everything easier for me.
I have sent semi-large sums from the USA to myself in Brazil, Itau bank, using Wise. Not once has my bank even flinched without speaking to anyone in advance. Although, I now realize that is the proper thing to do as abthree continually states, personal contact means a lot here. Also, remember, everything with Brazilian banks takes days to get pushed through. So, you need to talk to them at least a few days prior to your large transfer. I did have one wait during a large transfer, from Wise, not Itau, and cost me almost three business days as they processed more of my personal information.
I bought a new car last month, using Wise, and had the money in seconds using just one transfer while in front of the car dealer followed by one massive Pix transfer to them and I drove of in my new car. The Pix transfer took like 15 minutes and did have me a little nervous, but no issues at all. In transferring large amounts of money to someone else in Brazil, be careful about their personal tax returns to be sure your transfer does not show as income to them.

There are also business facilitators you can hire to do all of this for you.
abthree
07/01/22 @timhoffnagle
To my understanding, you can only send less than 10,000$ Dollars in one year to someone other than yourself without having to fill out forms and such and report it. Also some banks I can send myself American dollars (I use transfer wise) and others are more difficult as well. 
- @Tim7711

I used Wise myself for over a year with no complaints.  I like them very much (although I still don't understand their business model, which always made me rather nervous), but this past April, their Brazilian disbursement partner, Banco Rendimento in São Paulo, screwed up my monthly transfer BAD.

I've described that (mis)adventure at length elsewhere so I won't burden people with it again here, but suffice it to say that my husband and I were without money for over two weeks, ultimately asked Wise to cancel and refund the transfer (which they quickly and cheerfully did; they aren't the problem, but they don't control their partners), and changed back to bank-to-bank SWIFT transfers, which I never plan to abandon again.  Only now in July have we fully resolved all the problems in both Brazil and the US that this caused us.   

My advice to anyone using a peer-to-peer payment system -- one that shows your transfer as if it were a deposit from a Brazilian bank rather than a transfer from abroad -- is that if the Brazilian partner bank holds up a transfer and asks for additional documentation, give them ONE chance to resolve it, then cancel and re-send a different way if they fail.  If their policy is, like Banco Rendimento's stated policy is, to only communicate through email and then to give themselves three business days for analysis before they respond, don't even give them that one chance.
timhoffnagle
Yeah, I have been sending money to my girlfriend for nearly a year with some regularity to pay my half of the rent of our apartment and I think that gave me naive confidence that sending a much larger amount, even as a loan, to help her daughter would just go smoothly....live and learn....  Thank you to all who responded!
timw445
@timhoffnagle

Hi Tim. I did the same thing successfully, but in smaller chunks. I kept each transfer less than $10,000 USD. The first transfer was a real hassle. The Brazilian bank (Santander) denied receiving the transfer. I use Chase bank in the US and they confirmed the transfer. The recipient had to keep pushing the Brazilian bank for the money and then finally the Brazilian bank "found" the money. The process took over a week. But the Brazilian bank would not release the money. The recipient had to provide copies of the purchase agreement and more documentation. Sadly, Santander never provided a complete list of documents required to receive the money at once. The recipient had to keep coming back and they would tell him what documents he was missing. But eventually he received the money. After the first transfer, the process was faster.
GuestPoster6111
Hello !
Just to add , Sister of my friend who lives in France , transferred smaller amounts to my friends Nubank account and  she was able to buy an apartment for her in SP. If someone needs ill ask her how much they transferred each month without hassles.
Texanbrazil
Maybe I am confused?
Before I had my RNE (I did have CPF and Protocol) I was able to transfer money for a condo (in my wife's name) and a car (in my name). Both were large amounts. At the time HSBC was in Brazil. I went to HSBC's main office here and spoke with the manager about each. HSBC said to transfer directly to the car dealer and the manager and I went across the street to BB. BB agreed to wire to the dealer and the dealer would pay all taxes (for 6 months) and since I was wiring money to my/her attorney for the closing on the condo we cleared it by stating it condo was in her name and she would be paying the taxes involved.
The point is for the recipient and sender to establish a relationship with the bank(s) and BB. (If your bank is BB you have one less step.) You can transfer large funds into Brazil if you establish a relationship with the banks.
Once I received my RNE I bought a car without an issue by just going to the bank to advise them of the transaction (s). (The amount, unless it is a very large amount, is not a problem.
Fentium
It is my understanding that there are a few parts to this process when transferring large sums to what is effectively a third party. One to establish the relationship and this is done through a contact. Two, the method of transfer and lastly three, depending on the amount, registering the transaction with the Central Bank. This is done via the Registro de Operações Financeiras (ROF) and normally performed by a broker. The lawyers dealing with the purchase should be able to either act as a broker or appoint one for you.
Mikeflanagan
yea the reasons on the caps and notifying  banks isnt just to do with brazil. its an international anti money laundering prevention. so if your transferring large sums they know where that fiscal dollar is going and exactly who sent it for pinpointing. Like abthree mentioned - going directly through swift is best , because constantly using money services turns into an nightmare if you get audited :)

but id be wary with nubank as they have a spotted history with disappearing balances and peoples accounts.
archlab
@timhoffnagle
Hi Tim.
Several years ago, my wife at the time(Brasileira) & I bought a couple of apartments. 

I don't know how things are right now, but here's what we did:
1)  First Apto:  We made a down payment and monthly payments to the developer.  The Apto was under construction at the time. Since this developer was well established & had several built, successful, large projects we had a high comfort level.  It also paid off later when we sold.

Anyway, we didn't do anything fancy, just sent the money via a local money transfer service out of a local Brasilian store, which also has travel & legal services, as well.   FWIW, this business well established in the Atlanta area (Minas Emporium).  There are several others around.  We just used that because my wife had used them for a while without any issues

We sent approximately $75k over 3 years without any issues.  The remaining money that we paid was brought down in cash, but I also found that it was possible to make Cash advances from a US Credit Card.  This was a little cumbersome...but what isn't when dealing with finances in Brasil.

Generally, as well, I was able to make ATM withdrawals, but only as a last resort because the withdrawal amount was like US$100 per day with a ridiculous fee....from both BRA & US banks.

Also, at the time, I was working as an Expat in Africa, so I was able to get some of my salary paid to my wife's Banco do Brasil account.  But there were limits

2) Apto 2:. Several years after Apto1, we bought this, Apto2 with the help of my wife's Brother in Law, who happened to be the equivalent of a County Clerk.  This was pretty easy & we basically used the same methods as Apto1.   

I think that we I curred some tax liability, but I was surprised that we didn't get hit harder.  But it all worked out.  We did use a Brasilian accountant, as well.

As of today, I haven't kept up with the implications of sending money to (& from) BRA.  It may be the same, easier or harder.  I need to get current.

If I had any addl advice it would be to try to find local experts -real estate, accountant, lawyer all with experience in making the USA-BRA interfaces work.

But also, this time around/ next time around, I am considering using a Cryptocurrency - either to pay in Crypto, or to find it in the USA, then Cash out at a Crypto exchange in BRA.

I think that BRA hasn't really restricted Crypto much...yet, but research is needed.

If anyone has experience in this, let us know.
archlab
@Texanbrazil
Hi Tex.  Make relationships with the 'money-people'.  This is probably the best advice.

Like I mentioned in my post - we dealt with our developer.  I can't recall the specifics, but I believe he made it easy for us to transfer to his bank...which I believe was also HSBC.

Back then, I seem to recall that HSBC was one of the less cumbersome banks regarding Intl transferring of funds.  Not an option today, though.

I have, however, thought that perhaps there's a way to deal with a US or foreign bank (such as a ScotiaBank, etc) in order to set up a US account & A BRA account that would work by just transferring online (as I do between my US bank's Business account & Personal Account). 

It would also be great if we could use a Zelle, VenMo, PayPal or Cash app...but that would be too easy, of course.
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rnbtg
I did use crypto for a small transfer once. I bought a stable coin via Binance pegged to the USD (so wouldn't depreciate during transfer) and then transferred it to the wallet of a friend. Percentage wise it was somewhat cheaper than using Wise. There are probably better and cheaper ways to do it, but you need a bank account set up in the US and Brazil via country specific currency exchanges.

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