Thoughts on UBER (Brazil)

Drjmagic wrote:

So . . . I think you are saying we can all take part in helping a positive (generously sharing) evolution in Brazilian culture.

No, that's exactly the opposite of what I'm saying.  The assumption that the culture of the Global North is in any way superior to or has something to teach Brazilian culture is transparently arrogant, and always -- ALWAYS -- taken that way.  Brazilians are too courteous to usually show it, but no one should fool themselves on that score.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with personal generosity.  It will probably be read by the prevailing cultural norm, which is one of patron and client, but while I'm sure that's not the intention, it's still kind, and the money will doubtless help.

Drjmagic wrote:

From my very limited experience in Brazil ... tipping the "little guys" is not a common practice in Brazil.

There are 2 reasons I tip. I hope to help, in a small way, the under compensated worker. But more importantly, I hope that my Brazilian girlfriend and her daughter's (all who are very kind and generous but non-tipping people) will consider tipping as a way to express their kindness and generosity.

Excellent points, Drjmagic -- thanks. 

You're right:   tipping is not common practice in Brazil.  A transaction of equals in Brazil consists of one person quoting a price for a good or a service, the other person either accepting or bargaining. and the transaction going forward and being completed at the agreed price. 

In North America, we generally read a tip as a sign of solidarity, confirming our equality.  Not so here. A transaction that involves an additional gift is quite common, too, but assumed to fall into the patron/client structure, which goes back to Roman times in this culture.  The gift always goes from the social superior to the social inferior; in fact, the offering is often taken as an assertion of social superiority. 

Foreigners are often automatically assigned by Brazilians to a higher social class -- if a traditional Brazilian of a certain age has ever addressed you as "Mestre", that's what was happening.  (Foreigners are also often considered to be loose with their money, less intelligent than Brazilians, and more easily bamboozled -- it's well not to think too much about this particular stereotype, but not to forget it either.)   Tips fall easily into this patron/client model, and it's so ingrained that you'll never convince the recipient otherwise.  The reaction is often ambiguous.  If you remember how the old Harry Chapin song, "Taxi" ends, when his old lover gives him a $20 tip, he says, "another man might have been angry, and another man might have been hurt, but another man never would have let her go.  I stuffed the bill in my shirt."  That's a very Brazilian outlook, in English words.  It could be better described as "appreciation" than as "gratitude".

The fact that the recipients will never understand what you're doing, though, doesn't mean that your girlfriend and her daughters won't -- but you have to tell them.  If you do, they'll understand, and maybe do likewise.  If you don't they, like the recipients, may just assume that you're practicing some kind of noblesse oblige, or just throwing money away, as foreigners inexplicably do.

bahiametisse wrote:

no, it is definitly a win lose situation...
in your calculation Kurterino, you mention that you did 90 km with the Uber... imagine you end up in the half deserted country side, and that the Uber driver do not find a customer to come back, then he will absolutely not win anything from the ride...

in the meantime, i agree that the good move is to tip...

cheers!

Even though my ride ended in Salvador, I doubt that he made any money, even without being ‘stranded’ somewhere way out. Most people, even though they own cars themselves, don’t know how much maintenance goes into operating a cab. Especially since most cabs drive 95% of their mileage on city streets, that will wear down everything a lot faster. Also the added weight (passengers and luggage) doesn’t help.
So that’s my problem with Uber, I can’t see how they are able to operate, other than pushing their drivers into debt, or even bankruptcy (and then recruit new ones). And this can take years, I’m sure the drivers feel they are making money, until the big repair bills start coming, and it’s time for a new car.
I don’t have a solution, other than tipping, which is merely a band aid, but I think it’s important to be conscious about it.

abthree wrote:

03/16/22

We use Ubers to go everywhere, just as when traveling, we use AirB&Bs everywhere, and have pretty much stopped using hotels. 

In both cases, I assume that the person providing the service is an autonomous adult exercising his/her personal agency, and sees the transaction as a win/win.  In both cases we treat the person providing the service as doing us a favor, and the encounters are cordial on both sides.

I could see myself using AirBnB, there are plenty of countries where hotels are just really expensive (for example in Switzerland, regular hotels start at about 80 US$ per night. Sure you can find cheaper rooms, but most rooms in the cities will be more than that).
However, I hate AirBnB with a passion (lol) in countries where you have a huge choice of reasonably priced hotels, that are totally fine (hygiene, service, location…). Examples would be countries like Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia: in all of these countries, you can get a very decent room for 30US$ a night, or much less, if you’re on a budget and don’t mind something a little less ‘polished’, but still totally ok. Granted, a lot of these places aren’t on TripAdvisor, and don’t even have a website, but they’re not hard to find. In my mind, whoever uses AirBnB in these countries, helps destroying a lot of family run businesses.

Kurterino wrote:

However, I hate AirBnB with a passion (lol) in countries where you have a huge choice of reasonably priced hotels, that are totally fine (hygiene, service, location…). Examples would be countries like Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia: in all of these countries, you can get a very decent room for 30US$ a night, or much less, if you’re on a budget and don’t mind something a little less ‘polished’, but still totally ok. Granted, a lot of these places aren’t on TripAdvisor, and don’t even have a website, but they’re not hard to find. In my mind, whoever uses AirBnB in these countries, helps destroying a lot of family run businesses.

I never travel in those countries, so I'm not sure whether I'd use AirB&B or not; given where and how my husband and I live, I doubt that I'll ever be faced with that choice.

You're not the first person I've run into who "hates AirB&B with a passion", because of something "in my mind".  I hate Apple mostly on the same basis, so I can't be TOO critical.   

I'm pretty unsentimental about "family run businesses" being destroyed by somebody with a better value proposition.  I'm old enough to remember people complaining about all the "family run diners" being run out of business by McDonald's in the US.  For every little gem of a place that went under, so did twenty or thirty unsanitary hellholes.  Boring standardized, but sanitary food replacing food poisoning Russian roulette?  I'm good with that.

abthree wrote:

03/18/22

Kurterino wrote:

However, I hate AirBnB with a passion (lol) in countries where you have a huge choice of reasonably priced hotels, that are totally fine (hygiene, service, location…). Examples would be countries like Thailand, Vietnam and Cambodia: in all of these countries, you can get a very decent room for 30US$ a night, or much less, if you’re on a budget and don’t mind something a little less ‘polished’, but still totally ok. Granted, a lot of these places aren’t on TripAdvisor, and don’t even have a website, but they’re not hard to find. In my mind, whoever uses AirBnB in these countries, helps destroying a lot of family run businesses.

I never travel in those countries, so I'm not sure whether I'd use AirB&B or not; given where and how my husband and I live, I doubt that I'll ever be faced with that choice.

You're not the first person I've run into who "hates AirB&B with a passion", because of something "in my mind".  I hate Apple mostly on the same basis, so I can't be TOO critical.   

I'm pretty unsentimental about "family run businesses" being destroyed by somebody with a better value proposition.  I'm old enough to remember people complaining about all the "family run diners" being run out of business by McDonald's in the US.  For every little gem of a place that went under, so did twenty or thirty unsanitary hellholes.  Boring standardized, but sanitary food replacing food poisoning Russian roulette?  I'm good with that.

I hate apple for pretty specific reasons , all of which are aligned with unknown sources viewing your data constantly. However in regards to Uber. Recently Uber closed restaurant delivery in Brasil apparently. Just cornerstore nonsense. Between taxis and ubers. The people I get on uber are more professional. Taxis I think out of the hundreds that I've taken or my wife. We find at least where we are there is issues where taxis will say where we live is too dangerous. Tell me I should live in the rich area where crime is actually rampant and complain the entire ride. As they face no form of scoring system. No penalty for bad behaviors lol. Again not saying it's the case with all taxis just specific to where we are.


In regards to Uber. Always tip in cash. I really don't trust the platform enough for them to actually pay them without taking some kind of fee. Ubers always good in the aspect of if someone doesn't want to drive to where we live they can just cancel out and get someone who needs money. I gave a guy his first good tip. Guy nearly cried. Small things you can do on a per person basis's will always do wonders over time.

abthree wrote:

03/18/22
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I'm pretty unsentimental about "family run businesses" being destroyed by somebody with a better value proposition.  I'm old enough to remember people complaining about all the "family run diners" being run out of business by McDonald's in the US.  For every little gem of a place that went under, so did twenty or thirty unsanitary hellholes.  Boring standardized, but sanitary food replacing food poisoning Russian roulette?  I'm good with that.

I’m not sentimental about it, but I see it as something that will ultimately result in less choices, less convenience and overall it’s going to be more difficult and more expensive to travel in a certain way. For instance if you do a road trip, it’s so liberating if you can choose spontaneously where you sleep, depending on how far you want to drive that day, or if you had a breakdown or something. And driving through an unknown town and checking out the different areas before settling on a place is a totally different way of traveling, compared to reserving a room from your smartphone.
Im not saying one is better than the other, I just appreciate having the choice, and I’m not sure how many low cost hotels will still be around in a few years…

abthree wrote:

03/18/22

I never travel in those countries, so I'm not sure whether I'd use AirB&B or not; given where and how my husband and I live, I doubt that I'll ever be faced with that choice.

You're not the first person I've run into who "hates AirB&B with a passion", because of something "in my mind".  I hate Apple mostly on the same basis, so I can't be TOO critical.   

I'm pretty unsentimental about "family run businesses" being destroyed by somebody with a better value proposition.  I'm old enough to remember people complaining about all the "family run diners" being run out of business by McDonald's in the US.  For every little gem of a place that went under, so did twenty or thirty unsanitary hellholes.  Boring standardized, but sanitary food replacing food poisoning Russian roulette?  I'm good with that.

One more thing:
do you think the sanitary conditions have gotten better thanks to the large food chains? How so? Here’s my take : I’m sure other countries have similar institutions, for example in Switzerland there’s a food inspector (or something), and they are visiting restaurants and other food establishments unannounced, and I’m pretty sure they aren’t ‘toothless’. I don’t see how food chains have raised the standards, if anything they have the means to bribe themselves out of problems. Disclaimer:  personally I have no quarrel about eating there, I sometimes do it myself, even though much less frequently the older I get …

abthree wrote:

03/19/22

Kurterino,

I'm sure that you're the last person who needs to be told that nobody's sanitary conditions are comparable to Switzerland's.  I would never expect the food inspection system there to be "toothless" -- very, very far from it.  That's a standard of comparison which any other country would have trouble meeting.

That might be true, even though there are plenty of other countries with similar standards. After all, it’s a matter of public health and important for the tourism industry.
But my original question was if you think that large food chains have raised sanitary standards? I’m not sure they have, and would love to hear your reasoning

Kurterino wrote:

But my original question was if you think that large food chains have raised sanitary standards? I’m not sure they have, and would love to hear your reasoning

In comparison to what was there before?  Not a doubt in my mind.

Xpat-Forever wrote:

95% of all Taxi drivers in Brasil have connections to bad people, mafia, drug dealers, etc.

???. 95% in Foz? Where are the studies and facts?

Texanbrazil wrote:

Xpat-Forever wrote:

95% of all Taxi drivers in Brasil have connections to bad people, mafia, drug dealers, etc.

???. 95% in Foz? Where are the studies and facts?

I am referring to Rio de Janeiro.

sprealestatebroker wrote:

Uber is highly unregulated.  I have heard many cases of gun point robbery and rape attemps by Uber Drivers.

Yes I’ve heard some stories too, but there are also plenty of such stories happening with licensed cabs. Also, in most cities it takes probably a lot more to lose a taxi license, than getting banned by Uber. But since we don’t know the numbers, it’s mostly speculation anyway. It’s just that I don’t think you’re necessarily safer by using licensed cabs only.
While I don’t necessarily disagree with your other points, I think it’s a very one-sided view. For example you didn’t mention the rating system at Uber, licensed cabs don’t have that.