Why did Brazil purchase 36 Swedish fighter planes

The ordered the Saab fighters, in my opinion, because it would be much easier for the politicians to hide the huge amounts of funds they're skimming off the contract.

Cheers,
James
expat.com Experts Team

But USA jets (F-18) and french one (Rafale) were much more expensive. So this would mean Swedish would be less honest in business than Americans and Frenchs? What a shock!
I have been told all my life than Nordics were the model of honestly, good governance and transparency.
James, you wasted my day.

Nothing to do with the politicians in other nations, it's our Brazilian politicians that can't be trusted. Don't forget too that here in Brazil kickbacks on government contracts is all part of standard operating procedure.

Cheers,
James
expat.com Experts Team

The US F-18 Super Hornet and the French Rafale were the original contenders for a 4 billion dollar deal to purchase 36 fighters for the Brasil air force. Interestingly there are naval versions of both aircraft (possibly operable aboard the SAO PAULO, former French Carrier FOCH which was purchased to keep the Admirals from revolting). Brasil was leaning heavily toward the Super Hornet until information was leaked that the US NSA was snooping on Brazilian government communications including President Dilma Rousseff's cell phone.
Both the Hornets and the Rafales would have been sold to Brasil as bare bones fighters without high-tech radar and weapons systems.
Apparently the Swedes were willing to sell fighters to Brasil with all the bells & whistles installed. So why did Brasil spend US $ 4 billion dollars to upgrade the Air Force ? In my opinion, same reason they purchased the aircraft carrier for about US $ 30 million.
Historically rotary wing operations aboard Brazilian aircraft carriers were conducted by the Navy while fixed wing aircraft were operated by Air Force pilots. Possibly the purchase of aircraft capable of conducting carrier operations for the Air Force probably was intimidating for Navy supporters in the government.
In this decade Brasil also purchased 8 US SH-60 Naval helicopters equipped with Penguin anti-ship missles which were delivered to Naval Air Station Sao Pedro and scheduled to be operational July 2015. I live in the Cabo Frio area and have yet to see or hear a Seahawk in the sky.
All these purchases were made after the discovery of the offshore oil fields and were justified by the need to patrol and protect the offshore economic zone.
David, Chief Petty Officer, Naval Aircrewman, USN retired

Well there has been many contenders including F-16 in the past decade. Most recently we sent down some CV-22 reps. This was a 5 yrs down the road possible purchase. I doubt it though...88 Mil an aircraft is a hard swallow.

Soon to be AF retired...3 weeks left.

When you don't get involved in wars, why have the weapons,
May be it's to keep the people in place

Why have the weapons when you don't get involved in wars ?
Brasil craves the prestige of at least appearing to be the leading power in South America.
Brazilian policymakers continue to pursue a permanent seat for the country on the United Nations Security Council.
Brazil's maritime exclusive zone currently amounts to 3.6 million sq. kilometers and Brasil has invested hundreds of billions of dollars in offshore oil and gas platforms, wells, and terminals. The Tupi field off Rio de Janeiro is estimated to contain between 5 to 8 billion barrels of crude.
Safeguarding offshore oil and gas installations from external and internal threats has become imperative for many countries especially those with significant offshore oil and gas operations that are vital to their national economic well-being.
PIRACY- in the last seven years at least six pirate attacks on offshore installations have been reported worldwide.
TERRORISM- to date two terrorists attacks against offshore installations have occurred worldwide.
ORGANIZED CRIME- at least two reported attacks on offshore installations involving organized criminal groups have occurred.

A strong military is not necessary only for nations involved in wars. In fact, a strong military is probably a country's best guarantee of peace.

Also a strong military is necessary for patrolling and defending Brazil's borders, especially against drug and arms trafficking.

Cheers,
James
expat.com Experts Team

Defense Industry Daily 14 September 2015
Brazil's prosecutors office ended it's investigation into possible corruption in the country's procurement process of Saab Gripen NG fighters, finding insufficient evidence of wrongdoing to continue. The investigation centered on possible kickbacks for Air Force (FAB) officials, with four of their sons placed in AEL Systems S/A, a company contracted to supply Gripen manufacturer Saab with aircraft components, including avionics equipment. The prosecutor's office terminated the probe after a four month investigation, Saab won the country's FX-2 fighter competition in December 2013 with a contract announced in October 2014. Following renegotiated loan terms with Sweden's Export Credit Corporation this deal became effective the first week of September 2015.

JOBS
A production line will be setup at Embraer's Gavio Peixoto Industrial Facility. Embraer will be responsible for software development, integration, flight test, final assembly and aircraft delivery in the Brazilian Gripen NG programme.
A new center for the development of jet aircraft technology will also be set up at this site in partnership with Saab and other programme partners.

James

The simplest answer is usually right. Brasil has no reason for weapons of this class and recent history supports the corruption angle.

Well I wouldn't quite agree with the statement that Brazil doesn't need them. The most important time to defend yourself and your sovereignty is in times of peace. We do have a hell of a lot of unprotected borders, and these fighters will certainly help in terms of reducing drug trafficking via air, among other things.

However, you're not going to get any argument from me that the graft and kickbacks were a big motivating factor.

Cheers,
James
expat.com Experts Team

In addition to previously posted reasons for replacing worn out equipment;  old aircraft are like old cars...they nickel & dime you in parts and maintenance cost to continue operating until finally they sit in a hangar and rust. The manufacture of these aircraft is a joint venture between Saab and Embraer and they are being built here in Brasil. A good thing....There are locals in Sao Paulo who are very happy to know they have jobs tomorrow due to this deal. Additionally when you bring a rusty knife to a gun fight, you lose. Go ask the Argentines why the Islhas Malvinas are called The Falklands and the inhabitants speak English. These are facts..I don't shoot from the hip because its too easy to put a bullet in your own foot. If it ever comes out that there was graft and corruption involved in this deal than Defense Industry Daily and the Brasil Prosecutors office will both be wearing egg on their face. I am a guest resident in this country, I don't vote so I tend to refrain from comments about Brazilian politicians.

Who is Brazil protecting it's off shore interests from -

Pirates - those Somalis get around don't they.
or Uruguay, although I doubt they are about to go after oil laden seabed off Rio.

The deal has been in the works for at least 4 years - It would have been embarrassing to cancel due to frugality and poverty - an example of misplaced Brazilian pride, as is often the case.

The surest way to attract any aggressor is to appear weak defenceless or behind the times ask the Polish about that scenario. History had shown when they had to fight the Germans in WW2 with horse Calvary and WW1 era fighter craft they lost big time.  Failure to keep up invites aggressors to come and take what you have.

Is it 2017 already ? From my knowledge SAAB won the contract in 2013 and announced the deal in October 2014. SAAB is pretty eager to be a world aircraft exporter enough so to renegotiate the loan terms for Brasil in 2015.
Anyway how bout that dollar ! 3.88 to 1 today ! And in two more days the US Fed is going to raise interest rates ! Merry Expat Christmas I say ! I am going to have two caiparinhas while looking at dental floss on the beach in Cabo Frio tomorrow.

I am not sure what that will do to the Real but it could push it further north to the R$ 4.25 range we will just have to wait and see what it does,  It will be interesting. They have announced this several times before that they were going to raise the rate and never did it. It may be just another false alarm.  Maybe just another testing the waters so to speak.  It is probably a bad thing to do with a weak economy and a very poor recovery but the only ones who might benefit are the banks

James, help me here, exactly why would Brasil need a world class fighter?  I  looked  up this deal and here is one source that I found most informative.

Please read the article.

http://latincorrespondent.com/2015/10/w … -hardship/

Just a little more info From Wikipedia:

Gripen International was responsible for marketing the aircraft, and was heavily involved in the successful export of the type to South Africa; the organization was later dissolved amidst allegations of bribery being employed to secure foreign interest and sales. On the export market, the Gripen has achieved moderate success in sales to nations in Central Europe, South Africa and Southeast Asia; bribes have been reportedly involved in some of these procurements.

Again the simplest answer is usually best.

GRIPEN JAS 39 is an aircraft type model designation of a fighter plane manufactured by Saab of Sweden.
Gripen international WAS a joint partnership between Saab and BAE (British Aerospace Engineering) formed in 2001 to market the GRIPEN in South Africa.
Yes, the organization was later dissolved amidst allegations of bribery being employed to secure foreign interest and sales.
And any college professor will tell you; Wikipedia is not a repudiable reference citation as any Tom, Dick, or Harry can contribute information on Wiki.
The FA-18 Super Hornet was eliminated from the FX-2 competition and Brasil went with Saab when it was found the US National Security Agency was spying on the Brasilian government in 2013.
Also the US likes to use arms parts embargo's as part of its foreign policy. That's why the Iranian Air Force has a bunch of F-14 Tomcat fighters sitting on the ground broken and unsafe to fly.

Re: Why did Brazil purchase 36 Swedish fighter planes during economic hardship ?
LATIN CORRESPONDENT by Graham Land

Graham Land grew up in the suburbs of Washington, DC, where he was part of the local hardcore punk scene, playing in several bands. Through his musical movement he became involved in grass roots interest such as anti-racist activism, animal rights and ecology. In 2000 he relocated to Europe, eventually earning an MA from Malmo University in Sweden. He also lived in Japan, Ireland, Portugal and Greece. Graham has been editor-in-chief and contributor at madefrom.com and environmental news site greenfudge.org as well as regular writer at eprofits.com and currently latincorrepondent.com

Ohanasurf hi!

Soooooo "shoot the messenger ?" You did not say Wiki was wrong, just that you don't seem to like the source. I can tell you did not read these articles or you would know that this fighter uses critical AMERICAN parts.

Quote: "And any college professor will tell you; Wikipedia is not a repudiable reference citation" Don't tell me you tried this in college !? Is this why you disregard it?

I grew up in the era of libary research (that's an ancient place were we had things called books). We were taught to gather information from as many sources as possible and build an argument.

I stand behind my argument for corruption in this deal.

Knowledge is like a buffet, try all you can and go back for what you liked.

Four Brazilian Air Force attack aircraft from Campo Grande in southern Brasil, flew to a spot 45 miles northeast of Sao Gabriel de Cachoeira and together dropped eight 500-pound bombs.
Their target: a dirt airstrip, hacked out of the lush rainforest canopy, suspected of being used by a drug cartel or one of the many smuggling outfits that are steadily pilfering the Amazon rainforest of its minerals and wildlife. Threatening the planet's most ecologically important forest.
The bombs exploded in thunderclaps of noise, smoke and earth. Circling the airstrip, the propeller-driven aircraft's two-person crew confirmed that their bombs had cratered the strip and rendered it useless, for the time being.
The traffickers have other airfields-and may have even repaired the one outside Sao Gabriel de Cachoeira. Battling criminals in the Amazon is a war without end. But its a war without end that the Brazilian Air Force must be capable of effectively waging.

ohanasurf, once again Hi.

Nice story. Very action packed. but you have once again avoided the question, Why the multi billion dollar deal for world class WARPLANES ? Your narrative is very nice but the truth is Brasil can manufacture the planes used in this operation themselves.

Once again, CORRUPTION IS AT THE HEART OF THIS DEAL.

Take it easy.

The Brasil bash blog..........

If you say so......

Corruption however, affects us all.

I will not bash Brazil on corruption as an American we have enough of that going on at home to worry about. Whichever country we are from they also have their various corruptions as well. There is no lack of corruption in  the world if you look at it realistically 

That said Brazil must have world class fighters to act as a deterrent.  One only needs to look how Argentina fared in the Faulklands to understand why.  It is a perceived thing if your air force isn't up to standards how are you going to defend your country.  Take a lesson from Poland in WW2 their air force vintage WW1 aircraft the German invaders had state of the art attack fighters. Your answer is how did that turn out for the Poles, not to good right? 

Now consider this if a country appears to be weak is it more likely to be attacked by others wanting what that country has.  The other thing of importance is that old outdated aircraft become more expensive to maintain over time and in some cases replacement parts are no longer made for them or available. This is a joint venture between SAAB and Embraer to manufacture them in Brazil it will bring jobs to that sector. Brazil needs all the jobs it can get for its people it will be good for the economy.

So in the final analysis the people who are screaming corruption,  need only look at the US Military and Air force and recall all the contracts they made,  there was corruption involved in every one of those deals in the form of, cost overruns and kickbacks. 
Who are we to condemn Brazil on corruption when we don't look at it back at home in the US in the same manner. We  want to tell them about how bad their corruption is when we ourselves are guilty of the same, makes us hypocrites doesn't it?

John, take a breath. Corruption is rampant. but that can not mean we should not call it when we see it.

Note that Brasil is gutting it's economy to pay for these fighters. This is FACT not BASHING.

I have asked for the threat Brasil faces that demands this expenditure, none provided. I have long ago learned to reject the vague notion of  an attack of a bogyman enemy. Fear is not a valid reason to cripple an economy.

Argentina was the invader in the Faulklands. Please review this example. The Germans and their superior wepons lost WW2. BTW.

As to job creation, just more smoke to sell this deal. The truth is half of these jets will come unassembled and Brasilians under supervision will put them together. Hardly the best way to learn the technology.

When the Brasilian government creates a mess like this, they begin looking for other sources of revenue to pay for it.  This tatic ends up killing growth and fostering noncompliance from the public.

Corruption begets corruption here in Brasil. This deal is bad. that is the reality.

Not according to the Argentinians they were merely trying to exercise their claim on the Islands,  They considered the British as the invaders so its a point of view from which side you view it.  As for the Polish I recall they were occupied by Germany and although they fought bravely the Germans overwhelmed them with superior technology in weeks. 

The Allies had some very lucky breaks in wining WW2. The capture of the Enigma machine,  The development of RADAR,  The Russians fighting a second front and the US industrial capacity and capability that was untouched during the war. 
Had the US not entered the war  Europe would have been speaking German and probably England as well.  Plus the Germans would have developed Atomic weapons as well they were well on their way in that technology they probably would have conquered  the world. They were only months away from it and they had the rockets to deliver them.

The Allies defeated them yes this is true but it wasn't because of superior weaponry it was just sheer numbers and an unhampered Industrial capability of the US.  Had the Germans fully developed the jet fighter the Allies  theoretically would have lost the war as they would have gained air supremacy. It was Just a series of lucky breaks partly because Hitler countermanded some of his generals advice and did what he wanted,  that in itself was a lucky break.

As for the corruption point of view,  It exists but before we go an criticize another countries corruption and tell them how corrupt they are telling them what they should do to fix it perhaps we should clean our own house first rather than to meddle in Brazil's  problems. We need to address our short comings as well.  The banking industry for example is partly to blame for some of Brazil’s problems in its economy,  the recession was caused by US banks and their corruption its a global effect.  What happens in the US will eventually affect other countries

Why did Brazil purchase 36 Swedish fighter planes?

No one has given a good reason for the purchase of these jets, just obfuscation and misdirection. 

Don't rewrite history just to avoid the subject. Hitler was nuts and evil. The Nazi's were evil. Argentina poked the bear to distract from corruption at home and got a beat down. The allies were not the stooges you seem to believe them to be.

The USA did not cause the economic crisis, GREED DID.

I've seen this before. Blame the USA. It's our fault. John, corruption in Brasil is so ingrained in their culture that they don't accept responsibility for it.  Don't buy into it just because "everyone" is doing it.

Look past the bikinis and surfers on the beach, John. Turn around and see the favelas. Ask yourself how these 16 year old kids got high powered assault rifles. Ask yourself how the drugs flow in so regularly? They are right there, in the light of day!

As to the USA, John, we are here because as Americans we have this option. I am grateful for that freedom.  I thank the men who stormed Omaha Beach.

The USA is the best hope for a better world. We are facing a great evil in the form of terrorism and we are surrounded by frienemies, countries which fear our success, hope for failure but count on our protection.

We make mistakes. but we don't have the luxury of someone else to blame.

If you do some research you will see that none of my statements about WW2 are a rewrite of History those are all facts that happened during WW2.  And fortunately they did happen.  My point is all countries need a deterrent to Invasion. Poland didn't have an adequate deterrent in WW2 to stop Hitler thus he invaded them. 

No matter what you want to believe the facts are countries that are perceived to be weak and vulnerable might be invaded or attacked.  It has been that way throughout history there are countless stories of fact on such invasions. No matter how civilized we perceive ourselves to be there have been and will always be invasions of other countries. This hasn't changed in a millennia nor is it likely to change in the future.  One recent example is the Invasion of Kuwait by Saddam, he was driven out but not by the Kuwait’s.  Had the world governments not acted to drive him out Iraq would still be occupied

That said Brazil may have spent the money foolishly but that was their decision. Brazil is a country of enormous natural resources a lot of which as of yet has yet to be utilized. They have every right to buy what they think is necessary to defend their country from any invasion or aggression by any means.
You may cite corruption as a motive and I would say no more corrupt that the USA in their awarding contracts to the Military Industrial complex.  How many kickbacks and graft have been involved with them we don't fully know.   We only hear about the ones that get caught  and only the tip of the iceberg when it concerns politicians.  Again I say we should clean our own house before we decide to go and clean someone else’s.   You have nailed the primary cause however GREED is the common denominator in it.

For myself, I am a guest residing in this country. As such I conduct myself as I would expect anyone living in my home to conduct themselves......

SMH- Silence is affirmation,  so I am compelled to respond. After WW1 many country's in Europe built up their defenses against possible future German aggression. This did not help them.

Brasil is NOT in danger of invasion, unless you KNOW something we all don't.  Invasion was NEVER put forward by the government as a reason for this waste of money.

When I first visited Brasil I thought "Why isn't this country kicking ass economically ?"  Over time the answer from Brasilians has always been corruption.

Whenever possible America gets blamed here. This is a tactic employed by terrorists as well. Got no job? Blame the USA, inflation eating your savings? blame the USA, poor education ?=USA don't like my golden toilet? Blame the USA........

This negative attitude about America from an American will make you some friends anywhere in the world, but it don't cut glass with me.

The subject here is Brasil. The issue is a purchase of fighter jets that ALREADY has a negative economic effect that will affect a generation, to say nothing of the resources you've mentioned.

America had nothing to do with this deal, so leave the USA out of it.

So in your opinion NATO shouldn't exist to counter a Russian threat. Countries should not be spending money to support NATO.  My response is go and clean your own house first before complaining how dirty your neighbours house is.  Apparently you miss the point  I really  can't make it more clear for you.  It is a Brazilian problem they will have to deal with it. We really have no say one way or the other.  Except to keep our noses out of it. It really doesn't matter what we say on the subject  as it is up to the citizens of Brazil to deal with it.  Unless of course you are a citizen of Brazil then its your problem.

JohnC
Your response sounds like proper logic to me

JohnC
Your response sounds like proper logic to me

Once again you are off topic. Now you attempt to put words in my mouth.

Your attempt to make this personal is understood and rejected.

At least you've stopped blaming America. Now if we could only get you on THIS continent.

I did not miss your point as none was made. Now you claim you should not even be thinking about this problem.

Well you know best were to put your nose.

Gentlemen, could we please try to stick to the original topic, which is that of the purchase of fighter jets by Brazil.

Exchanging jabs will only succeed in getting the thread locked, so let's not go there, OK?

Cheers,
James
expat.com Experts Team

I guess my point  is never going to sink in.  All I am saying is we should address our problems in our home countries first, instead of going around the world trying to fix problems in other countries, That one we have no power to correct in the first place and secondly is up to Brazilians to fix if they want to.
We can ask why they wanted or needed the 36 jet fighters till the cows come home it isn't going to matter one way or the other.  So what's the point it's a moot discussion with no resolution possible by us.  It wouldn't matter if we knew the real reasons or the corruption behind it or even if we knew the answer on how to fix it. It's going to happen, It's pointless and really there is nothing we can do about it anyway.

This tread actually starting to get interesting 

James - the forum should allow a few friendly jabs - especially when it involves two expats from the same country - what is the harm ? if there is any Brazilians reading they can get a laught as well when they notice that the expats are just as good at bashing their own country as they are bashing the country they are living in at the moment.

Regarding the topic : i do not understand why it is a problem that Brazil is buying a few fighter planes - does anyone suggest that Brazil should not have an air force ? When you look at the percentage of GDP Brazil is using on their military they are hardly overspending - they are spending less on their military compared to the size of their economy than most contries.

Regarding WW2 and US - we Europeans would probably speak either German or Russian today if the Japanese was not stupid enough to attack Pearl Harbour and US (finally) joined the war - then again, if Hitler had won the war who knows if not US would be speaking German as well. England was definitely a spent force when US joined and, as far as i know, they had one single victory in north Africa before US entered the war.

I am from a small European country myself and we are definitely very glad to be part of NATO with a "big brother" to the west protecting us - Russia or any other mid-size country could walk right over us even if we spent our entire economy on the military - that said, any country should have the military they are capable of, especially when they are part of an alliance