Business visa denied due to "violating laws of Vietnam" - Blacklisted?

Went to the department of immigration in Hanoi this morning, was quoted a fee of 20 mil to get off the limited list. It can be done but it take about 3 weeks.

Probably more expensive if you're on the blacklist or if you go through a reputable agent to sort this out.

NadimPN88 wrote:

Went to the department of immigration in Hanoi this morning, was quoted a fee of 20 mil to get off the limited list. It can be done but it take about 3 weeks.

Probably more expensive if you're on the blacklist or if you go through a reputable agent to sort this out.

Do they give a receipt?

Thanks - that’s almost the best news I’ve heard about the whole saga.  It is a Limited List apparently.  I’m in HCMC - so you think better to go to Embassy?  Did they give you a reason? And is it a one-off payment?

Basically the explanation they gave is the same as in the posts above.

The visa agents were registering us as employees of fake companies in order to obtain 1 year visas which are usually reserved for people with valid work permits. This was done in cahoots with some immigration officers.

the authorities somehow hold us partially responsible for the whole thing but they understand that there was no intentional wrongdoing. That's why individual with 1yr business visas are only on the "watch-list" (or limited list) and it only costs 20 mil.  You also need to leave the country and re-enter with proper paperwork (which you can only obtain once your off the watch-list).

I did not have a work permit or TRC and was not working here the entire duration of my visa. I understand that people who were issued illegal working permits or TRCs are now on the blacklist. Based on experiences of friends, expect to pay several Ks USD if you wanna get of the blacklist.

Irony of it all is that I have now found legit work and my company is now trying to sort out this mess. I went to the immigration department with a colleague (a local) and he was dealing with the officers.  I went to the headquarters in Hanoi but they must have an office in Saigon. I would recommend you take a local friend to help out.

I haven't paid the fine yet as my company is trying to pull some strings. I cant confirm but I would expect the 20 mil to be a single payment with no receipt.

Hope this helps.

What a mess.

Yes it has - thanks so much! I have a local solicitor connection so now I know what I’m dealing with - i will inform and accompany- I think it’s best to not let the agent sort it out then. Seeing as they are the ones that created the mess. My husband uses same agent but has a WP - so that’s why he didn’t get listed.  It all makes so much sense.  I’ll keep this chat group informed of the outcome seeing as it could become a bit of thing for some individuals.

My ex wife in Thailand stole my passport when I kicked her out for cheating on me. She then went to blackmail me to give the passport back. I had a 6 month medical extension due to my deep vein thrombosis. The embassy made a mistake and sent the paperwork back. So by the time I eventually got a new passport from Bangkok I was just over a year overstay and was put in prison for 6 months and deported with a 10 year ban. They refused to accept the medical extension and I showed the police report and messages on my phone from the ex wife and their response was, "your wife, your problem" I lost my house, car , dog, every I owned . So after going back to the UK in handcuffs looking like a criminal I then came to Vietnam and want make sure I never over stay again , lol

Angelaschild wrote:

My husband uses same agent but has a WP - so that’s why he didn’t get listed.  It all makes so much sense.

I don't remember the two letter designation, but I recall that there is a specific visa category specially for dependents of holders of work permits.  I wonder why your agent did not mention it.  Of course it could have to do with the size of his fees.  You might want to look into it.

Angelaschild re above:  If your husband has, or can covert to an LD visa, you should be eligible to have a TT visa as a dependent.  That would relieve you of the need to hold a WP.  I doubt that will get you out of your current mess which may only be resolvable with cash    , but it might work in the future. 

This is still ongoing for me......

What ceases to amaze me, is why so many western expats (Aussies in particular) are so bullishly obsessed with VN,...to begin with.

VN (as a SE Asian nation) is severely lacking in terms of comparable 21st. Century level infrastructure,...beyond the basics.

Indeed(s) VN Immigration policies are quite fickle...and seem to change in conjunction with changing weather patterns.

In fact ^,...VN Immigration refuses to accept its own national currency for payment of any visa. That ^ is a very strange story of its own,..to say the least.

Socially, VN,...compared to several other (less expensive) SE Asian nations, is generally quite "street" chaotic, rude and unwelcoming to foreigners, except (of course) at the local bar scenes, restaurants and hotel lobby reception counters. Otherwise, you get bullocks (for you money spent,...in VN.

Now,,..since the OP has made no further comments since 08February19,...then perhaps he has regained his senses,...and (apparently) has moved progressively along with his life,...elsewhere.

THIS is AWFUL. I had thought VN was friendlier to retired expats than Thailand or Cambodia, but I guess not now.

There's just no getting around leaving every 90 days, it seems.
The case can be made it's gaming the system, but the VOA firms made the whole thing happen prima facie.

This puts Thailand and Cambodia back in play for retirement.

Why would someone need a WP when there's no income earned and one was really trying to develop business in VN?

The VN Embassy website does not make it clear what you need to do, and what you can do. Unless, does anyone have an official link?

MealsDavis wrote:

Why would someone need a WP when there's no income earned and one was really trying to develop business in VN?

The obverse of your question is why would you need a business visa unless you intend to either earn income or develop a business?  Could it be that the real reason for most applications for business visas is simply to have a longer residential period and that they have nothing to do with business?

Of course it wouldn't be polite for me to discuss anyone's possible intent to subvert the rules of a host country.

OP kowloon2020  repeatedly asserted that he did not earn income and only signed contracts/secured office space and staff, attended trade shows... whatever it was.

In fact, many businesses loose money getting up & planing. But no worries. It sounds like it's moot anyway. We can revert to plan A, Thailand, and be closer to family.

MealsDavis wrote:

Why would someone need a WP when there's no income earned and one was really trying to develop business in VN?

You don't need a work permit to develop or own a business in Vietnam.  If you are an owner and derive income from the business you can apply for a work permit exemption.  It's a bit of a hassle but not too bad.  I had a lawyer here in Vietnam do my paperwork and filing.  I needed some paperwork that I had to gather from the US showing "expertise" in my business and then had it translated and certified by the Vietnam consulate in the US, gave it to them and a few days later I had a signed and chopped two year work permit exemption in hand.  Lawyer fee was a flat 6,000,000 VND.

THIGV wrote:

Could it be that the real reason for most applications for business visas is simply to have a longer residential period and that they have nothing to do with business?

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! 

Eventually these people will hurt it for the legitimate business people.  Probably not as likely from the US, but from this thread we can see it's already starting to happen in other countries.

SteinNebraska wrote:

THIGV wrote:

Could it be that the real reason for most applications for business visas is simply to have a longer residential period and that they have nothing to do with business?

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! 

Eventually these people will hurt it for the legitimate business people.  Probably not as likely from the US, but from this thread we can see it's already starting to happen in other countries.

The real question is "Why does VN not have a retirement Visa like many foreign countries?".

vndreamer wrote:

The real question is "Why does VN not have a retirement Visa like many foreign countries?".

That is the real question. 

Maybe they just figure foreigners will jump through the hoops since it's not THAT big of a deal especially if one is retired here.   Even when I retire here I'm going to be making trips to other countries just to see new things and vacation in other places so the 90 or 180 day thing won't affect me in the least.  I suppose if an expat wants to retire and just hunker down and never leave Vietnam it could be a nuisance but if one wants to be cheap is it that terrible to spend a day four times a year taking a bus ride?  It's four days out of 365.  They are retired.  It's not like they have such a full schedule that it can't be squeezed to their busy lives.

MealsDavis wrote:

THIS is AWFUL. I had thought VN was friendlier to retired expats than Thailand or Cambodia, but I guess not now.

There's just no getting around leaving every 90 days, it seems.
The case can be made it's gaming the system, but the VOA firms made the whole thing happen prima facie.

This puts Thailand and Cambodia back in play for retirement.

Why would someone need a WP when there's no income earned and one was really trying to develop business in VN?

The VN Embassy website does not make it clear what you need to do, and what you can do. Unless, does anyone have an official link?

Both Cambodia and Thailand certainly do have their own unique quirks,...but that's nothing compared to the (deeply-rooted) extent of VN.

Make no mistake about it. The Vietnamese are truly...an ingenious bunch of people.

From what I've observed,...foreign expat retirement life, in VN, is a (never-ending) series of stressful,... "seesaw" riding events.

Re: cost of living comparatives. Here's a reality check. For what one actually gets, in terms of basic quality living (for the dollar spent),..VN is not cheap.

VN has fantastic beaches and beautiful interior terrain. A great place to visit.

There's so much wrong with this post. Judgmental, bigoted, and smug.  A Thai lady not living in Vietnam but feels very arrogant to make sweeping statements about Vietnam. Thailand is great. Vietnam is great. Thailand is bad. Vietnam is bad. Both have advantages and disadvantages. No country is perfect. Just don't crap on a country just because you don't live there.

zccliu wrote:

There's so much wrong with this post. Judgmental, bigoted, and smug.  A Thai lady not living in Vietnam but feels very arrogant to make sweeping statements about Vietnam. Thailand is great. Vietnam is great. Thailand is bad. Vietnam is bad. Both have advantages and disadvantages. No country is perfect. Just don't crap on a country just because you don't live there.

Where in the forums rules does it say she cant do that. You have your opinion, and she has hers.

And you have yours. And what's your point?

zccliu wrote:

And you have yours. And what's your point?

Oh, that precisely the point, what was your point in posting.

Thank you for precisely pointing the way to your previous point, which I might point out has no point.

Colin:  Playing devil's advocate today, aren't you?   

Ciambella wrote:

Colin:  Playing devil's advocate today, aren't you?   

Trying to.

zccliu wrote:

There's so much wrong with this post. Judgmental, bigoted, and smug.  A Thai lady not living in Vietnam but feels very arrogant to make sweeping statements about Vietnam. Thailand is great. Vietnam is great. Thailand is bad. Vietnam is bad. Both have advantages and disadvantages. No country is perfect. Just don't crap on a country just because you don't live there.

Excuse me,...sir? I do not post comments from the side of my neck. There was absolutely nothing arrogant, judgmental, bigoted or smug in my "considered opinion" post,...based upon my own personal (working in HCMC, Na Trang, Da Nang, and Ha Noi, VN) experience and observations.

In addition, I actually have Vietnamese colleagues,..of whom really have bigoted opinions about their own homeland. Thus,...opinions are like a**holes. Everybody has one. That's LIFE,...fyi... 

Anyway,...if VN was really working-well for you, then you wouldn't have bothered to reply with such an angry-spirited retort? Apparently,...I hit the nail squarely on the head,...in your regard,...eh?

Conclusively,...I wish you the very best, and please have a happy one,..sir! Ok?

Ciambella wrote:

Colin:  Playing devil's advocate today, aren't you?   

HA!^... ...I have unilaterally earned that accolade from you (troll poster) today,...Ciao!

jana611 wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

Colin:  Playing devil's advocate today, aren't you?   

HA!^... ...I have unilaterally earned that accolade from you (troll poster) today,...Ciao!

Huh?  Have no idea what you're saying, or why you grab something I said to Colin (about his specialty) and came up with "troll poster", which is definitely not the same as devil's advocate.

--------------

Anyhow, folks, this thread starts to deteriorate and we all know what will happen next.  Let's not continue to hasten the process, OK?

SteinNebraska wrote:

MealsDavis wrote:

Why would someone need a WP when there's no income earned and one was really trying to develop business in VN?

You don't need a work permit to develop or own a business in Vietnam.  If you are an owner and derive income from the business you can apply for a work permit exemption.  It's a bit of a hassle but not too bad.  I had a lawyer here in Vietnam do my paperwork and filing.  I needed some paperwork that I had to gather from the US showing "expertise" in my business and then had it translated and certified by the Vietnam consulate in the US, gave it to them and a few days later I had a signed and chopped two year work permit exemption in hand.  Lawyer fee was a flat 6,000,000 VND.

Thanks for that and all the helpful advice here. It stands to reason. That's cheap legal work when you break it into the monthly expense chunks. I amortize the cost of staying in-country into monthly base living expenses.

All in all, our plan includes traveling to various other countries every few months as long as all goes well. I would like to retire without being locked into requirements, if it were possible. If people get a serious illness... it's a hassle meeting the demand to exit. If there's a wild card event (crazy geopolitical leader stuff or natural disaster?) - still need to exit. Of course there's the time. cost, and inconvenience even when things are going well.

I didn't want to work but it's worth looking into using technical/professional certifications I have and open a consulting/inspection business. But I don't want to work. I'm 100% done. So it's a balance as to which would be more work; the commitment to exit or a business in VN.

Now that the Business visa situation in Cambo & VN are stickier and trickier, we're back to looking at Thailand. My wife is Thai and her best friend has a son in the diplomatic corps there. He may be able to advise us there...

Ciambella wrote:

jana611 wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

Colin:  Playing devil's advocate today, aren't you?   

HA!^... ...I have unilaterally earned that accolade from you (troll poster) today,...Ciao!

Huh?  Have no idea what you're saying, or why you grab something I said to Colin (about his specialty) and came up with "troll poster", which is definitely not the same as devil's advocate.

--------------

Anyhow, folks, this thread starts to deteriorate and we all know what will happen next.  Let's not continue to hasten the process, OK?

I agree! Nice clean-up,..btw. My compliments. Moving progressively along,...(on-topic)...

Others may differ but from my perspective, the topic of this thread was the experiences of persons who were blacklisted by immigration.  Also my perspective, the thing that they seemed to have in common was the use of business visas for purposes of general residence rather than the conduct of actual business. 

A note to MealsDavis:  Although this problem does not seem to have yet affected US business visa holders, you do seem to be wise to be wary of using the business visa inappropriately.  The sheer weight of American influence, perhaps the developing military alliance against China in the East Sea, may be insulating US visa holders for now, but why take a chance.  One advantage to the US tourist visa over visas for other country citizens is that the border run is 6 months rather than 3.

THIGV wrote:

One advantage to the US tourist visa over visas for other country citizens is that the border run is 6 months rather than 3.

If you're talking about the 1 year tourist visa for US passport holders, that's incorrect. They have to leave every 3 months, not 6.

hyagly256 wrote:

THIGV wrote:

One advantage to the US tourist visa over visas for other country citizens is that the border run is 6 months rather than 3.

If you're talking about the 1 year tourist visa for US passport holders, that's incorrect. They have to leave every 3 months, not 6.

Which expert is a person supposed to believe?

hyagly256 wrote:

THIGV wrote:

One advantage to the US tourist visa over visas for other country citizens is that the border run is 6 months rather than 3.

If you're talking about the 1 year tourist visa for US passport holders, that's incorrect. They have to leave every 3 months, not 6.

I stand corrected.  I think I may have mixed things up with the VEC.

OceanBeach92107 wrote:

jana611 wrote:

THIGV wrote:

jana611:  Do you have something to say or do you just enjoy using the quote function?

Oops! The tipsy side of me has prevailed tonight. I'm embarrassed. Anyway,...thanks for making me aware of my "malfunctions".

Here is it tip for deleting extra posts:

In the same area where you used the quote function, instead, use the report function.

Report your own post to admin and ask them to delete it. They will pretty quickly clean it up

I appreciate your effort and instruction. Thank you.

Ciambella wrote:

jana611 wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

Colin:  Playing devil's advocate today, aren't you?   

HA!^... ...I have unilaterally earned that accolade from you (troll poster) today,...Ciao!

Huh?  Have no idea what you're saying, or why you grab something I said to Colin (about his specialty) and came up with "troll poster", which is definitely not the same as devil's advocate.

--------------

Anyhow, folks, this thread starts to deteriorate and we all know what will happen next.  Let's not continue to hasten the process, OK?

Ok! Offering an apology would be stepping out of my (typically) Asian character,..eh?

However, I totally disagree with the John Wayne mentality value,...regarding his view of how apologizing is perceived.

Thus,...I apologize for (unjustly) accusing you of troll posting,...while managing to keep my Asian "face" intact,...particularly on the public forum,...eh?  Peace,...on both accounts.

Exactly my position as well.    Got the 12 mth BUSINESS visa in October 2018 and now can’t get any type of visa.

Prior to getting the DN  I enquired to two agencies asking what was required to have that visa.  Do I need a WP, do I need to register a business etc.     In both cases they stated NO documentation required, NO business NO work permit,,,just apply online & it’s granted,

Regardless , I still regularly travelled in & out of Vietnam during that time, so treating it as purely a long term stay permit wasn’t the intention.   The agents said it’s best for my circumstances , ie multiple entry  convenience & the option of seeking business opportunities.

Luckily I kept copies of the email replies to my questions.  But that doesn’t do you any good.  They still say you violated the laws of Vietnam.

Crazy eh.....it wasn’t long ago that all tourist purpose visas were B1 business visas anyway.   It’s only recently they changed them to DLs .

I’ve heard about the “lists”.   But if you start paying bribes ( which is illegal anyway) , how do you know what will happen next time.   

Bribing government officials in another country is a serious offence .  That’s how these human traffickers get people across borders & criminals gain entry.   At the moment there’s a guy from Norway that murdered someone in Thailand last month ,,here in Vietnam .  Just bribed staff at a land crossing.   

They say you’ve violated the “laws”....but are quite OK with accepting an under the table bribe thru an agent to clear your name from the very Black list that’s supposedly there to keep the bad eggs out.

By the way...that guy from Norway. Roger Bullman....he was on an Interpol Red Watch list after jumping bail & not reporting to police.   He later got into Vietnam.  The Thai police have his passport. 

I wonder who his visa agent was.

Ontheroad57 wrote:

Exactly my position as well.    Got the 12 mth BUSINESS visa in October 2018 and now can’t get any type of visa.

From what was being said by many at that time, you were very fortunate, as the big cutback on 1 year DN visas had already begun for non-US citizens.

Did you use a big Visa On  Arrival company or a mom and pop store?

Do you remember how much you had to pay for the agent's fee?

Did you ever get specific feedback from the government as to what you had done?

Ontheroad57 wrote:

Prior to getting the DN  I enquired to two agencies asking what was required to have that visa.  Do I need a WP, do I need to register a business etc.     In both cases they stated NO documentation required, NO business NO work permit,,,just apply online & it’s granted,

Regardless , I still regularly travelled in & out of Vietnam during that time, so treating it as purely a long term stay permit wasn’t the intention.   The agents said it’s best for my circumstances , ie multiple entry  convenience & the option of seeking business opportunities.

That's always been the key phrase quoted to me as well: "the option of seeking business opportunities.".

However, I have been cautioned to be VERY low key in that regard.

How aggressively did you pursue any business opportunities here?

Did you actually sign any contracts or exchange money for any business enterprise?

What sort of business opportunities were you seeking, specifically?

Were your trips in and out of Vietnam related to business in any way?

I hope you don't mind all the questions.

We've had many people posting on here about being blacklisted, and there are different theories as to why this is happening.

Not having an actual job with a work permit seems to be the most widely accepted theory, but I don't recall seeing even one individual assert that to be the reason in their particular case, though I might have overlooked such a post.

Other valid theories include the possibility of a disagreement of some sort with a Vietnamese citizen who then makes a report to their connection at immigration, or perhaps taking part in some activity that is even slightly suspicious.

And, as Colin pointed out at the top of this thread, there is some local scamming going on.

As has been posted on here recently, certain seemingly innocuous social media activity can land citizens in jail.

Being Devil's Advocate, some of the things you've written in YOUR post could get someone in trouble with the authorities.

So if you've made your opinions well known on the internet or in a coffee shop or anywhere you might have been overheard, that would likely be more than enough to get yourself blacklisted.

Please understand, I'm not attempting to be confrontational with you or attempting to accuse you of anything.

I'm trying to get as many true facts about business visas and blacklisting on record here to offset a lot of posts that are simply rumors or anecdotes without any explanation.

About 2 years ago I read on this forum that 1 year DN business visas were no longer being issued.

When I looked for an official record about that I couldn't find it. 

Now I'm here on my 2nd 1-year category DN business visa (US citizen) and I know many other people here with the same type visas.

I hope you get your own visa situation fixed as soon as possible.

jana611 wrote:

Ciambella wrote:

jana611 wrote:

HA! ...  ...I have unilaterally earned that accolade from you (troll poster) today,...Ciao!

Huh?  Have no idea what you're saying, or why you grab something I said to Colin (about his specialty) and came up with "troll poster", which is definitely not the same as devil's advocate.

--------------

Anyhow, folks, this thread starts to deteriorate and we all know what will happen next.  Let's not continue to hasten the process, OK?

Ok! Offering an apology would be stepping out of my (typically) Asian character,..eh?

However, I totally disagree with the John Wayne mentality value,...regarding his view of how apologizing is perceived.

Thus,...I apologize for (unjustly) accusing you of troll posting,...while managing to keep my Asian "face" intact,...particularly on the public forum,...eh?  Peace...on both accounts.

John Wayne wrote:

“It's getting to be ri-goddamn-diculous.”

John Wayne wrote:

“You're short on ears and long on mouth.”

John Wayne wrote:

“Never apologize, mister, it’s a sign of weakness.”

John Wayne wrote:

“Seen better fights than this at a prayer meeting.”