Khmer rudeness, or my lack of understanding

Perhaps a misunderstanding. Visits, specially family visits are highly respected and thanked for in many ways and appreciated. Look deeper into it and as said perhaps a misunderstanding. Regards Mike

I could buy that from one family member, but this was from every one of them, many times over the 4 1/2 years Chroeb and I have been together. Not one word of thanks to me. I can't think of any culture, anywhere in the world where this would NOT be just plain rude. Maybe because they are rice farmers, and don't know any better, but I have a hard time even buying that. They are no longer welcome in my home. The younger brother, who was here for 9 months, was the dirtiest person I have ever seen, both hygiene-wise, and in even keeping the very nice  bedroom and his own bathroom he was in clean. He left trash all over the floor, and even after I put a broom in front of his door!  I finally had to boot him out last week.

it sounds more like you're clueless about asian cultures.  my advice is to study some etiquette to avoid looking like a water buffalo in  a china shop and embarassing everyone ( and thus giving all foreigners a bad name )

here's your first lesson in asian etiquette:

asians will never display any feelings of gratitude or joy for a kind gesture / gift / present ( even at gun point ).
they will look auster, take the gift and toss it aside until they're alone.  then they will burst into tears from the joy - in private -

they will always keep you in mind for being a nice and generous person.  and at the first occassion / opportunity; they will reciprocate your gift or help you with a big smile if you should need assistance in anything.

i guess its their sense of pride that won't allow them to demonstrate their gratitude on the spot.  but they will be waiting for the opportunity to pay you back for your kindness / generosity etc.
it can be in a week, a month or a year.

and abraqadabra - problem solved.

rudeness I guess, I would say if properly educated they should say thank you if can not express in English, at least they give you something to express the gratitude,

Well there's a lot to say but I will try to make it short and understandable.  One is low education, morals, and discipline.  I see that in a lot of Khmer people.  They can be rude and not opened minded at all.  It seems to me that they think about themselves and not what the other might feel.  Also its there habit.  They grew up being unclean hygienically and sanitary.  In the family structure of an uneducated family normally the poor they don't really discipline or teach their kids morals, manners, and all those problems you are facing.  They are farmers and they are used to living life as they please.  There parents and grand parents and so on were the same.  So that's how they lived.  They eat fruits and dispose of the peels or seeds where ever they please, whether it be on the bed or ground where they lay.  They don't bath much because there was not any running water out in the rural areas.  So that is one of there bad habits, plus that are not very knowledgeable on hygiene. 

About them not thanking you or showing any gesture of thanks it can be many things.  Gulfport is right in some ways,  but it could be because they are afraid of you or shy.  Second because of low education and no one to teach them manners.  They are not used to or know how to say thanks.  But to the point I honestly think they are just rude.  I've seen some people that are poor but they have this snobby attitude that they are better then everybody. So that may be there behavior.  I notice that a lot here.

I can not speak for Cambodia but I have to say my seven day visit in the capital city was great and greeted with un-ending kindness. I have to say Thailand was overly great with respect and kindness when I first arrived in 1988. But today with the new generation it is a totally different picture and completely 360 degree turn around. All the respect and kindness has gone out the window and it has become as if you are expected to give them everything without not one thank you. TV movies magazines of the western culture has change people mainly in the large cities where things cost more and only little money to survive on. We are the blame not them. We bring our fancy crap to these parts of the world. I hope you get the point.

Wifes family is from Srey Reng, a rice-growing part of Cambodia bordering Viet Nam's eastern border, east of Phnom Penh. The two boys are educated, but not socially inclined to integrate with foreigners. None of the daughters are educated, except what teaching I could provide for Chroeb.
Sanout is 100pct correct in their dirtiness. They toss everything on the floor, and then sit in it, or on it. or prepare food in it. This is the main reason I tossed the younger brother out of my house. I couldn't stand his constant filth. His other brother "borrowed" $500 and then disappeared after paying me back only $200. I really want nothing more to do with them. Culture or not, Cambodia - it's time to grow up and join the civilized world, and crawl out of your caves.

Yeah Its true.  For Cambodia to join the rest of the world and compete in the global market these behaviors must change.  I understand your feelings towards all this cause it also annoys me, despite that I am Cambodian as well.  The behaviors, attitude, mindset, some of the culture, I really don't understand, I just blame it on low education.  But anyways, I hope that despite all of this, you and your wife are doing ok and that you are enjoying your stay here.  Have a good day sir.

They are reluctant to change, and the leadership is deliberately holding them back, by refusing to allow many western companies to open here. Only in the past 2 years has a Burger King opened - one at the airport, and one elsewhere in town. It would be great if we could get the same satellite TV as Thailand - True Visions has many western channels, which would be eye-opening for the Khmers. I have to explain that much of what she sees is "Hollywood" and not real. I would also like to see more English spoken news about the country instead of hiding it. For instance, the Khmei know about the lumber stealing that goes on around the border with VietNam, but it is kept to themselves, because the leadership is making millions from the sale of exotic woods, as the forests are stripped. Maybe with a new prime minister, things will change.

Yes that is all true.  I noticed a lot of people don't want to change, and there is corruption (which is all over the world). I heard that some American companies don't want to open up here because they don't support corruption eg. Mcdonalds.  I do see that the government is starting to change but of course "Rome wasn't built over night".  The younger crowd is becoming more opened minded adapting to western culture and thinking, but Cambodian will always be Cambodian.  The younger generation are more educated with the internet being a good thing that was brought here (despite the negatives it can show). 

Yes the Gov.  tries to keep its citizen from knowing certain things like there wrong doings as well as to preserve the culture and traditions.  Tv and technology can destroy that and influence us to do things we shouldn't be.  All and All we're just a minute voice that will probably never be heard....

I thank you very much for this very interesting thread. However, shouldn’t we accept that the Khmer way of behaving is different from ours? It doesn’t mean that we should accept everything but maybe we should look at these things in a more relaxed way. Khmer people are very nice, it’s a real gift to live in that country, and it’s worth a few draw backs.

I agree 100%

It is hard to believe that khmer people are not polite and that they are rude to you when they have been your guests. There must be a reason....
Some time ago Madmax888 wrote: "Her (Croeb) brother came down from Phnom Penh to help, and lives with us now. There is really no expense to me, as Chroeb provides food for him from the profits from her business. I did donate a few shirts and a pair of shorts, as he came down with nothing but the clothes on his back." 
She gives her own money to her brother for work, not as gift. And probably she gives money to her family too.
So there is no need to be extremly thankful to you. In Cambodia it is man's duty to take care for family, for elderly people and relatives. Sorry, but so it looks from outside only.....

Folks, at the end of the day rudeness isn't a totally Cambodian charactoristic. I can recall plenty of instances in the UK where I have shown small kindnesses only for it to be accepted and the recipient walks off without a word. Some time ago whilst giving English lessons with monks I had to (somewhat sarcastically I admit) ask ,ís there a Khmer word for ''please'' (som by the way) as I had never heard it used when asking for something (having said that I think in the UK please is often over used!). personally I find my partners family (or most!) do tend to show this basic response to a kindness from myself most of the time (Arkun Bong usually, but that's good) But I would agree with a comment above,
An odd sense of pride comes into play at times (which on a certain level I can understand).. they are all poor (90%) so when they are seEn to rely on a Barang for what should be life basics even though their neighbours are in the same position, they are seen to be taking a handout which, unless you are really on the bottom rung ( limbless street beggars) where any sense of pride or even self respect is beyond your means, we would all be uncomfortable about. As far as hygiene and cleanliness is concerned, I am often being told off for my transgressions. Licking my fingers when eating chicken or ribs by hand or failing wipe the top of a can of drink with tissue before opening the can. I am not allowed to clean dishes because I am not thorough enough (been ok for all these years!). And when her family stays I have to stop them from sweeping. But I am sure this is not always the case and I would suggest setting down quite firm ground rules from the offset. I have had to send the children out in the garden with  bags to pick up items they have left about,and pull their feet off the material settees. Now they don't do it and the elders make sure they don't because they know it isn't what I expect.But at the same time I have to accept some of their ways  which shouldn't be too difficult when in their country... Must admit still struggle with Asians walking thro swing doors and letting it swing back in your face as you follow or having held a door open for them se them walk thro and totally ignore you, and the same applies while driving, ever stopped to allow someone to cross in front of you or to allow them out of a side road, such courtesies seem an alien concept and something to be ignored or wary of !!

A final end to all of this. Its been 2 weeks since I made the younger brother leave. Things got very strained after that, with many long phone calls between the three sisters and the brother. I felt like  I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, if you know what I mean.
The shoe dropped yesterday, when I woke up and she was gone. Packed 90% of her clothes. and gone before dawn. I  get a text about 9:30AM (most likely written by her sister, as Chroeb doesn't know how to text) telling me that she went away because I don't love her. If that means I won't support her parasite family, she is right. As of now, I am not willing to let her come back. I think I will stay single for a bit.

This is obviously another misunderstanding....with unfortunate consequences.  Your "my way or the highway" attitude seems a little inflexible, but some people are better off single, as you suggest. As someone who has never figured out how to clearly let other people know what my boundaries are (always expected them to be sensitive enough to figure them out), I'm not in any position to be critical of how you want to lead your life. 

I hope you can find a woman later who is willing to talk about boundaries before she moves in, including a long talk with her family members first.

I wish you good fortune.

Max.. good luck.. sounds like she was 'run by her family'.. most here are totally tied to the family regardless how much of a waster they are.. my partners father is typical, a waster, wife beater who left my partner with a leg scar as a child. But she still insists she has to respect him even though she accepts what I have said about him. Move on max.. plenty of other opportunities out there.. Good luck   D

It is your lack of understanding of rude, ungrateful people.  Khmer can be very nice, attentive people.  However, you are old (same as me).  No one loves American's - they love the money and security.  I believe you made the right choice.  Don't accept financial hardships for in-laws who are not respectful and appreciative - even if it is not heartily meant (it is very possible that her "brother" is really her husband or boyfriend).

The best of luck!


/Gary/

I think the post about Asian Culture - is truly laughable!  I am no expert but have lived throughout Cambodia for 2 yrs. and the Philippines for about 4 yrs., almost a year in Japan, and visited extensively throughout Thailand and the wide-eyed but naive assumption of teary-eyed grateful people to proud to express appreciation is not based on any of my dealings with Khmer, Pinoys, or Thais.

Partnership, relationship is complicated by itself within your own country even more if it stretched across multiple countries. Let’s look at relationships across continents, culture, eating habits, communication etc. it’s a challenge and I take my hat off for anybody who can cross into a continental relationship and make it work. Both need to be strong; any children out of the relationship must be even stronger. The point I like to make is, learn from each other, learn each other culture and more so, understand each other culture, be aware, once you make this step, you might never fully fit back into your own culture again.

Perhaps one more point I like to make, a language is an integrated part of a culture (according to my philosophy) so, without understanding the language (fully) one cannot understand the culture (fully), simple, “please, yes, thank you etc” might not be relevant in another language but never less it cannot be determined as a negative factor.

If you are looking to settle in Cambodia and want a Khmer wife you will have to look at the right place, on the other hand if you look to entertain yourself, well there is always the red-light district as we have all over the world and cash is king.

A little quiz, nothing serious but I always ask this in my psychological test.
2 apples and 2 bananas =
Let’s see who gets it right?

Very rare will you find a Cambodian who has manners  is : ignorant: no expression of gratitude
Or appreciation  of the gifts we give    Whether it's money ; food or shelter
Lack of training from home by the parents who are ex Khmer Rouge  victims or perpetrators
Give them no idea  of  western manners
Even within their own families they express no feeling or welcome ness
They don't even acknowledge the presence of fellow family
However
Will protect them to the last breath against foreigners or spouses
Touching in public is taboo or even emotion.    Unless it's the dog dying
ONE.       Never lend to a Cambodian with the expectations of getting your money back
It will never happen.    Believe me.     
The above does not APPLY to  ex Cambodians who have returned.       Maybe one day the ethics
Of the people will change for the better

Regarding the little quiz, I'll bite despite my belief that the right answer could be variable based on one's evaluation of the context. This will be fun.
In the mathematical setting:
1. If one focuses on quantity as a distinguishing characteristic without regard to the commonality of the objects, I think the correct answer is 4 objects.
2. If one focuses on the quantity and also considers the similarity of the objects, the correct answer would be 4 objects of fruit.
3. If one focuses on the quantity, the similarity of the objects and their dissimilar shapes & colors, the correct answer would be 4 objects of fruit with one red & round and one yellow & elongated.
4. If one cannot reconcile the question in the context of the inquiry, the correct answer would be 2 apples and 2 bananas.
And finally, in the more generic, non-mathematical setting , given that the conjuction "and" is utilized to frame the inquiry instead of the arithmetic symbol "+" which would indicate there is a sum
5. the correct answer would simply be fruit.
And the diagnosis is: ______________!

2 apples + 2 bananas = 2 fruit smoothies for $2. And it's okay to ask first if the ice is ok for barangs.

You seem to have a pretty idealistic view of "western manners." Maybe you think that's what we Westerners want to hear so you're trying to flatter our egos.  I read that the Japanese embassy in Paris has to have a resident psychologist on hand to help Japanese tourists recover from the trauma of being treated by the French version of '"western manners." Ever been to New York City? Ever been homeless or black in the US? Good luck finding someone who'll treat you with "western manners."

As a Buddhist (Northern flavor), what I see here in Cambodia is a thin veneer of Buddhism covering a distorted form of Confucianism, where, unlike the true form, leaders have no deep spiritual sense of responsibility for those below them in the Confucian hierarchy. What you end up with is an oppressive master/slave dynamic where compassion and equality (According to Buddha's enlightenment, all living beings share the same energy and so are one and the same) are foreign concepts that don't need to be practiced. Even the slaves have internalized the master/slave dynamic, so if you don't behave like their master, they will try to dominate you.

Western societies with their patriarchies based on a male God are really not that different from Asian ones based on Confucian teachings. Same day, same old sh*t, as they say. Anyone who has taken an anthropology class and been exposed to evolutionary biology should realize that people with single-focus "male" brains are going to have low emotional intelligence and show zero compassion anyway.  You will not have a healthy emotional life surrounded by these people.

So, my strategy for my "golden years" here in Cambodia is to ignore the men here as much as possible. They are just a source of endless aggravation.  I watched countless episodes of "The Dog Whisperer" back in the US and yet I still don't have the knack of dealing with all these "Alpha Dog" wannabes.  When I go down the street to buy vegetables, it's a challenge not to have to pay the barang price, but the women here are the best part of Cambodia. I get my hair cut as often as possible even if I don't need one. Coming from the US, I find it really amazing how gently I'm treated by the women here if I show some respect (respect the Buddha in everyone around you and you will achieve Buddhahood.)

"Western manners"....western culture.....no thanks....been there, done that. 

I'm in Siem Reap.  Sorry.

A well written, thoughtful, insightful response by Mr. Norell about the underlying drivers of the insulting behaviors that I will read more than once while encouraging others to do so as well.
I would supplement his observations by adding that my own responsive practice is one of maintaining a smile while projecting courteous behavior or if neccessary, frigid indifference. The offender's offensive conduct is about the offender's state of mind; not mine. One must depersonalize the experience in order to maintain emotional balance. But despite that objective and all of that loftiness, i sometimes find, more frequently than I wish,  that my chain can still be yanked from time to time.

Thanks for the generous compliment.

I try to celebrate the fact that I still have something there at the end of the chain to be yanked. i also try to allow myself to express my negative feelings in some way.(usually to my long-suffering fiance, who probably doesn't understand enough English to be too affected)..and separate taking an action based on anger from experiencing the feeling. i admit that my elaborate revenge fantasies are given wings here in Cambodia, since the police and legal system seem to be totally corrupt....so I know I can just buy my way out of any consequences of my planned evil deeds.

So many Western men seem to think that showing feelings is a sign of weakness. i always remind myself of the story of a general who had to walk around the battlefield and thank his dying men for their loyal service, maybe even shedding a tear for the loss of brave men he had known for years. Then, back in his tent, the general would arrange a vase of beautiful flowers and play music on a flute before falling asleep. The next day he would take his place where a true general leads from, at the head of his troops as they fight.

In spite of my disgust at the context, I do admire the general for his strength of character, which includes expressing emotions, both positive and negative.

Sorry for the ramble.  i obviously need to get out of the house more. 

Will Norell

sorry to hear that  madmaxx.i am sure it is the family that ordered her home because her barang will not fall in line,i have the same thing here with my gf,but she is 8,5m pregnant,unmarried so the family dont want her back becauze they thing she is a disgrace to her family.lqst year i wanted to marie her and went to talk abouf the dowry.her dad is a low rangking military,seargent or so,you know what he did ask as dowry?35000$.i called him a nutcase.since then i stopped supporting her family exept for the 2 youngest children ,i support them financially for their education .thats  100$a month.but older brothers,mother and father no more.if they order her home they know they have to take care of the baby wich costs tons of money.i wait and see what happens  further.and  storys like this are 13 in a dozen.khmers are tude ,selfish and ignorant.o and lazy.but most of this is the fault of the west,we give to much for free,food,stuff etc.we give them fish instead of fischinggear and teach them how to catch their own fish.problem will be  if their are financial troubles in the west,handing out food will stop and shit will happ3n in scambodia becauze the goverment don't care.
sorry if i seem hard,

Spyke - I think most of the low-class rice farmers are nothing short of parasites. I will  be much more selective in the future - looking for an orphan right now!!!

I understand the position of one or another but the discussion lacks of consideration for social levels. You expats have traveled countries, maybe learned languages, maybe studied at universities, runned businesses and you expect the entire population of a country to be at the same level and same state of mind. And because you are foreigner, you are missing a lot of what's actually going on.
Let's put it that way to change the perspective. If an educated Cambodian high ranking official or business man was to marry an uneducated red neck girl deep from the US midwest or one from a dirty London ghetto, do you think he would be suprised to see the drunk brothers show up at his villa in a runned down pick up truck to sip beer on his grass and jump in his pool with their dirty shoes. Do you think they would knee and thank the guy ? Would that be a surprise to see that girl leave at once to go boozing on the beach with her drunken friends after she snapped money from his wallet? If that happened, would you consider all american or british people to be ruthless, dirty, stupid and drunk ?
Mixing social status in a couple is not a detail, you get what you get. If you marry a country girl from anywhere, there is a great chance that you get a country family right? Then why complain when you made that choice in the first place ? Love has its ways right but if you are over 50 and want a girl 20 to 30 years younger than you, don't expect  educated Cambodian girl will not jump into your arms like you're the knight in shining armor. Unless you are very very lucky and you deserve it, ....what you will get is girls who will stay with you for the money...if you're blind not to see that, it might be better to live some other place or go back home to find if your country girl are better there.
So please stop general ideas on all Khmers or any country, I know super good people in any country I have been too and I have met super assholes everywhere too (including developed countries).

I don't understand why you need the father's permission to marry or need to pay money to him. Could you explain that for me, please?

I suppose you have heard of Dowry, a sum of money or present given to the parents that used to exist in Western countries and still exist in many countries. It is still often practiced in Cambodia especially in rural areas. Marriage of convenience (sometimes called forced marriage) is also a practice very much in use in many countries including Cambodia. Although the younger generation tends to go away from these practices, it will take some time to fade out completely, unless there is a generation revolution like the 1968 movements....

wmnorell: One doesn't need the father's permission, in so far as it is not a legal requirement of the marriage process in Cambodia. However it remains a fairly strong cultural tradition, here and elsewhere. We even observe it to an extent in some western countries; the prospective groom is expected to ask his bride's father's permission to propose marriage before proposing. It is generally accepted that, in this day and age, the father cannot actually say 'no' - it's just a formality. Even my more progressive friends back home still observe this tradition, to my surprise and disappointment.

Back to Cambodia, the father or parents of either the bride or the groom can and will say 'no'. In my understanding it is sometimes negotiable - the groom can offer more money or the couple can work hard to demonstrate their prospects and convince their parents to allow it. But if it's a hard 'no', not many people (it seems to me) are willing to go against their parents' wishes, even if the parents can't legally stop them. I've met a fair few single people here who had a serious relationship but weren't allowed to marry and never met anyone else.

like some people here said,young people don't go against their parents will,because they are scared to loose the family,lots of children ,teens and even older lie to their parents because they are scared of  their reaction.my gf lives with me for a while now,but the parents still don't know,its not done for an unmarried child,boy or girl to live together.and when they se that their child has a western boyfriend  ,papa and mama see dollarsigns.

One can say they are "scared" but in many ways, "Respect" of parents and older people in general is very strong and you just don't go against the will of the people who put you on earth, so the parents have that moral right upon their children. Disrespect that social rule does not have only an effect inside your family but also all around you, the neighbours, the whole village also will know about it and you might just be treated as an unrespectful person for the rest of your life in your community. To become such a person is a monumental shame for Cambodians, it's beyond a simple fear of mum and dad being mad at you...

Great. Thanks. I remember one way weddings changed in 1960s was that feminist women criticized the transfer of bride from father to husband as a transfer of property....woman seen as property. So many women just lived with a man and refused to marry, or changed the bride's wedding vows to get rid of "love, honor and obey" for example.

Thanks for the great explanation.

Will N.

Since my girlfriend is a Ladyboy, we are already way outside normal cultural practice in Cambodia, or anywhere else for that matter. When her sister was hit by a car on her moto, and about to die or lose her leg because he father mismanages his government salary, I handed over the last of my savings...$1000 for two surgeries and two weeks in the hospital.
When i said I needed my money back now, my girlfriend refused to ask her father for it, because it would make him "sad." So, in a really pissed off mood, I told her if I got into an accident on my moto, she could watch me die or lose my leg, or wave goodbye to me as I sit on a plane for 17 hours back to the US with compound fractures. Did she understand what I meant? Not at all.
My response to that was, if your father doesn't accept his responsibilities to be a good father, and refuses to be a man that settles his debts honestly, then you can visit your family whenever you earn the money for it, but keep your family the f*uck away from me because I am not your Santa Claus boyfriend.
Big fight, yes. Do I still love her? Like crazy.
She fights every day with the people around her who don't understand why a man would be a Ladyboy...well, she does it because she feels she is  woman inside...So my advice is to choose someone to be with who is a fighter and will go up against anyone to do what she believes is right. Confucian social rules be damned!

Interesting story, even before putting it together that this was tied to the 5 year saga prior.  Could the end be so easy?

I live in Thailand but of course I have no advice about how that might work there.  It would be different for different settings and social classes, and with different people.  The specific context in this story is hard to fully relate to.  Of course finance was one basis for the relationship, and one of the other initial premises was a vast difference in cultural perspective.  Good story, at least.  I hope the next chapters go well whether that woman is involved or not.