Khmer rudeness, or my lack of understanding

I think in this forum the word rudeness is getting mixed up with the word
Politeness;
Khmers don't like saving thank you.  : please :  I love you:  gestures of gratitude for what they have been given
But
They are polite.  And generally are not  meaning to be rude if they are perceived to be rude
By us westerners
On the other hand I agreed  that Chinese and some Koreans  are rude  and arrograte

This is likely going to be a bit of a tangent, but something a friend living in Beijing said about Chinese people there might relate to this. 

He agreed that there were a lot of cases of horrible manners exhibited by the Chinese people all around, pushing, spitting in public, smoking everywhere, talking loudly, etc.  He wasn't anti-Chinese; he loved the culture enough to learn Chinese and live there.  He wasn't really even classist, biased against certain parts of society, but you couldn't really miss it going on.  As an example, it was the one place in the world I've visited where people didn't let others get off a train before getting on, so it was mayhem to get off a subway at any given stop.  I'm also a fan of some aspects of Chinese culture (I love tea, and what they did for technology in the past and present is amazing), so in a way it didn't bother me, it was just a bit unusual.

His explanation was that in the Cultural Revolution the Chinese government and individual people intentionally dropped a lot of aspects of their culture.  Modernization and a move to the cities made for more radical changes.  His assessment was that these unprecedented levels of and types of changes at such a rapid pace didn't allow broad groups within Chinese culture to catch up and develop personal behavior norms tied to their new surroundings (eg. the spitting; that makes a lot more sense in a rural setting).

It's not the same case here in this thread example but something similar may be going on.  The family members living with or visiting the OP might be a bit off the map in terms of what is proper and what isn't related to staying with a foreigner supporting their family member (it seems not as a relationship partner, or as a housekeeper, but the specific role isn't really clear to me, or may not have been clear to anyone involved).  Without that type of guidance, and along with normal culture differences and language barriers, the result could essentially be chaos, they seem to just do whatever they do.  It probably makes more sense in light of traditional Cambodian culture but since that's not really the context maybe not completely according to that either.

As with the Chinese living in cities or traveling abroad a learning curve would eventually correct the imbalance.  In this case, for these people, a lack of direct communication due to use of different languages wouldn't help.  It was my impression, based on talking to just one person, so a bit limited, that in China there were class gaps that made the situation worse, because essentially two different sets of norms had developed. 

The same is true here to some extent, that there are two main social classes in Thailand (with a bit more of a middle class coming in now).  But Thailand developed from a much less urban and modern country to where it is today over a longer time, and the starting-point culture was different, with nothing like the Cultural Revolution to speed things along.  There is an obvious parallel in what the Khmer Rouge did to how the Cultural Revolution went but it's such a distasteful subject that it's as well that I don't draw any conclusions about the effect of killing so much of the population in such a targeted fashion.

mjck945, thanks. Good insights.

Simply giving birth to someone doesn't give you any "moral" rights....those are imposed by the society you happen to be born into. One is a physical fact....the other is cultural. Being a parent is a social role attached to a biological fact, and requires a series of physical actions...giving or not giving nurturing, making sacrifices for the child's benefit if necessary...etc. Raising a healthy child requires a lot of effort, and the results can be seen in the child's behavior. I use a child's behavior to evaluate parenting, and don't attach my moral values to the fact that they "brought someone into the world." (Although I admit, if I believe someone is neglecting their child I give them zero respect...a moral judgement on my part, to be sure.)

I agree with most of the points made by readers. I never expected the brother to grovel his thanks on a daily basis. I would expect a grown (33 years old) man to maintain a certain amount of cleanliness and order while staying in the home of his sisters husband. No attempt was ever made to rectify this. Perhaps he expected his sister (my wife) to clean his room. He was informed that this would NEVER happen, in fact it got worse. He refused to even put his dirty dishes in the sink, or pick up dirty napkins from the floor. Once I reached my limit, he simply moved out - I have not seen him since. I owe him a punch in the mouth for his actions. (I will restrain myself).

My response, as a Buddhist would be for you to consider taking responsibility for everything that happens in your life and not blame your wife or brother-in-law for what happened. However, since I often fail at this myself, my suggestions are a tad hypocritical. My experiences in Cambodia make me think that women are on the bottom of the social pyramid here, and that your wife may have been raised to see her brother's needs as more important than her own...maybe why she invited him to your house to share her good fortune. Once there, under your influence, she failed to subordinate herself to him....hence his resentment against you and his desire to "soil" your house and destroy your relationship with his sister....which he obviously succeeded in doing because you were being generous instead of playing "alpha dog" from the very beginning. In that sense, you failed to protect your wife from the negative aspects of male-dominated Cambodian culture.

Looking inside yourself....do you love your wife and miss her? Do you believe she really loved you too...or was this just a relationship of mutual benefit, as described by JC in Retire cheap Asia. If you discover that you really love your wife....go get her back.  Kick any man's ass who gets in your way. Don't let her spend the rest of her life being dominated by these a*hole male relatives and submissive sisters. Any pride you might have to give up to admit you want her back will be more than balanced by the satisfaction of getting what you want after fighting for it. A good woman (or man) is worth fighting for.
"

Nice answer!  Really that goes without saying, doesn't it, that if a relationship worth saving is at stake then someone not doing dishes or making a mess or not saying thank you isn't going to stand in the way of things. 

Surely the OP had a lot of factors to weigh and hopefully he does what works out best for all involved, even if things never will completely make sense due to culture issues and language problems.

Short answer:  yes

Now that Chroeb has been gone over a month, I find that I miss her less and less. As I go through the house, I realize that she looted many things that I bought for the house, many at her request. Small things, such as the dish drainer - really? How cheap can she get? She called a few days ago, asking for the pillow on my bed. I said "NO" emphatically, and added "No more giving from my house - You ran away. You live your life. Leave me alone".  I need to move on, and find another woman!

Thanks for the post. When I hear the specifics, I see I was being overly romantic and foolish with my comments. My apologies. Good luck in the future.

Such a shame..
I have been reading your story with great pleasure. Its almost been a good novel exept for the bad ending. A shame it had to go "sour" but I understand your choices. You have been way more paitient that I would have been.

I like the response of taking responsibility for what happens in life. Trying to control other people by expecting them to act and think the way you do seems a little insane to me especially when it is you that is living in a different culture than the one which programmed you in the first place. Maybe it is better you be with yourself for awhile. Who knows, I'm happy with just being with myself and don't need to get involved in a bunch of nonsense that I've created for no good reason. Good luck

You have created significant context for Chinese behaviors that are not well received, Bkk Tea Blog. Perhaps many will consider this Cultural Revolution Exception by giving the offender a pass, or even suggesting an alternative less offensive behavior-----at least until the PRC's re-education offensive takes hold. With the growth of Chinese tourism and the economic engines it will drive worldwide, one hopes the transition to politeness & considerate conduct  will occur sooner than later so that unhelpful sterotypes can be diminished.

MadMax888, your narrative here has likely been the most helpful to me than many, many other similar ones I have read in other forums. And equally helpful has been the varied responses by others to your scenario----those have been abundant, remarkable and insightful.
Aside from an expression of much gratitude to you and to each of the other contributors,  please accept my very best wishes for the occurences that life unrolls for you henceforth in this wondrous part of the world. I suspect many here share that sentiment.

In Cambodia , there is one thing I dont understand about the business local here. The more you buy from them instead of being thankful and give you a good treatment, they either swear at you( say bad shit) which can be seen thru body language and facial expression. I have witnessed these rudeness many times. One guy is ready to hit me with a wood , Every time I buy he say shit, so I said give me back my money. He started pulling out wood to hit me. I said go hit... he backed off. The old woman was trying to claim she over changed me 3000 which I dont know if due to oldness or alzheimer's. But she is the kind of woman will never even over change anyone for 100 riel. so I put it on her face.. please, you are not that kind of person, and if you did I will return it to you , for 3000 riel will never make me rich!  I said that is rude for you to accuse me that you over change me. Now, I am going to tell the Chinese , and the foreigner not to buy from your shop... she looked down, and felt guilty about it.  I say... if you know you are right.. stand your ground.

I had bought $1 noodles from the same cart maybe ten times, and always paid right when I was handed the tray. One night, as I was about to leave, the vendor, who I had always thought a nice guy and treated him with respect, accused me of not paying for my food in front of another customer. Of course I paid another dollar and left.

The next day I went back and told him that he had caused me to lose face in front of another person and I would never buy from him again.He probably didn't understand a word of what I said, but I felt better about sticking up for myself.  I now go to another cart about twenty feet away and buy from that fellow, who sometimes gives me stupid ramen noodles instead of the Cambodian noodles I asked for, but otherwise does a lot of work for $1.

I explained all this to a young tuk-tuk driver, who told me that many Cambodian people are reluctant to make a fight about small things because it "spoils the place," and going back there always brings unpleasant memories .I thanked him for a great lesson.  I guess in a small town like Siem Reap, if you spoil too many places, in a few years time you will no longer feel good about being there.

Kind of drifting off the subject a little but it was always odd how in Laos when we visited in the past they would almost always add up our restaurant bill wrong, so that when my wife checked it she was always upset and needed to have them reduce it.  The amount was always small, maybe a $1 or 2, sometimes more, but for her it was the point, because in Thailand you typically pay for what you buy at the advertised price, or negotiate to lower it in some circumstances (she's Thai).

We never had similar problems in Cambodia, but at the same time we did have issues with people overcharging for services, so you had to be careful.  This is all familiar ground, the two-price scheme, places charging for what the market would bear, in this case doubling or tripling local prices for tourists, so not the same type of issue as adding up the bill wrong every time to see if the guest would just pay it.

People tend to take the expectations from their own country to where they go, but what's normal in one place may not fit in another.  Double-charging is too simple an example, though, very clearly wrong, but in reality there is a grey area, lots of other little differences.  In the original story there was an underlying assumed expectation that a husband would provide for not just his wife but also their family.  Without sharing a common language (in the literal sense--I'm not being figurative here) there was no way to talk through that expectation and sort it out. 

Cleanliness was another issue, but then that could easily relate to a different set of expectations, one that might shift by social class as well as more general national culture.  I'm surprised at how clean our house is kept in terms of obsessive cleaning of the floors but not as clean as I'm used to for bathroom or kitchen deep-cleaning, and the clutter is about the same as I'm used to, a bit much.

On the positive side, I have given away many useless items that Chroeb insisted that I buy. A dozen small glass mugs to the people next door who own the book store, another dozen to the family next to them. They have all been very grateful, and said thank you many times. I gave a bag of Chroeb's old clothes, and some clothes for a small child to the neighbors, asking them to give them to some poor people who cannot afford clothing. They were amazed at my generosity!  These are all good people, and I wish my wife had been born into a family like these. It would have been a much better experience for me.

It's a different context, isn't it,  giving gifts to neighbors at random versus giving family members either necessities or "useless items."  It seems likely that if her family's neighbors gave them decorative glasses they would respond the same way.

Kind of a separate subject but sometimes my wife drives me crazy buying things that seem unnecessary as well.  She last bought a baby carrier, the sling / backpack style, when we already have half a dozen of those, and our baby is already walking.

Great to hear how u are transforming a negative experience into a positive one, and also making contact with the good people around you. Perhaps they will find someone for you by screening out the greedy ones. 

Thanks peeps, one of the best threads of the clash of cultures I have had the privileged to read  A few, very thought provoking observations and theories presented. However it hasn't quite answered many of my questions and thoughts, but it has provided me with a bit more insight on the Khmer or Asian people and cultures
I know there are answers out there, somewhere, to why they the Khmer or Nationals present opposing actions to what I understood and have been told by they, themselves. Actions that are contradictory to their stated beliefs and cultural norms. It has proven at times to be a frustrating learning experience. I have learned to cope quite well - a couple of cold beers and I can sit back, relax, and say "Oh well"
Honestly - an excellent thread!

These  glasses were new, not used junk. They were to  be used for Chroeb's Bamboo Drink stand. They are too small for my normal consumption of ice water, and too big for my morning juice. Rather than toss them, I offered them to the neighbors. They seemed delighted to get them. A small token of generosity on my part. These families have treated me better than Chroeb's family ever did.

I think some kind of out of topic here. The topic was about Khmer rudeness. I am not speaking about all for I admit there are some khmer  that are nice and polite. But Maybe according to some people some have mental problems and they are those who like to beat and hit people with wooden stick or accused people they over change them . or those that drives expensive SUV and hit or run over a foreigner and not even see if the person is alive or bring him to hospital,

I can see some heartless people.  I say, I guess it depends on what we have learned from our parents, plus the education plus our experiences in life.

It is always nice to be sharing but sometimes just be careful of the green eyed monster . you never know it might cost your life.

There is always two sides to the coin.  It's easy for fools to say your wrong because they are not in your shoes.  I been hanging around in the Pacific Rim for almost 30 years now and I have seen the change.
Your are not alone in this ball game there are many people in the same situation as you.  Respect is global and there is no excuse no matter what anyone say.  When I first set foot in Thailand respect was over whelming to disbelief.  Today it is a complete 360 degree turn around.  I think you will find that older people are a lot more respectful then younger one.  It is called I want what you have and I don't care how I get it.  And don't let anyone tell you different.  But then our western cramp that we pushed on the globe has a lot to do with it, so yes you have to give them some understanding, but there is a limit to that.  The thought is not in their heads that you worked all your life to get where you are today.  They feel if you can come here on a big plane then you have big money. You will never get them to believe that you worked very for what you have. There are some criminals that hide out globally, that stole the easy money they have and exploit the locals, and then they get the wrong idea.  When they see people coming for holiday they have no thought that most these people have to go home later and work to pay that plastic money back.  Anyway your doing the best thing keep moving on until you find what your looking for and don't let some dam fool on this blog tell you otherwise.

Hi guys,

So I’m a Belgian girl with Khmer parents, living in Cambodia now for a year. When I visit my family on my mother’s side in the province of Pursat I always bring back a little present. Since they are about 500 (I’m exaggerating) I can only afford to buy small thinks such as calamari’s our medication, bandages, schoolbooks….. Every time they have thanked me until I feel ashamed for bringing such small stuff over. And every time they refuse for us to pay for food or accommodation or what so ever. Man and women has to clean and work on the farm or else they wouldn’t survive. My family doesn’t want to come to our place because they think that a rice/chicken or duck farmers place is not in Phnom Penh. It saddens me the way they think about this. In this family there is something more respected then gender, it’s the age of the person in front of you. If it’s a women but she’s older as a young guy you OWE her respect. If it’s a older man yes the young guy or girl OWES him respect. I truly agrees with this and we all act the same towards elderly people in the province.

Now the family of my father…… When I bring the same stuff they look at me and ask me: that’s it? Why don’t you give me a motorbike instead? Or give me the money and I will buy stuff on my own. No I don’t receive any gratitude and people just stare at me as the little black girl with her white husband who has loads of cash. Since day one I explained them that I NEVER EVER give money and I have been told that I’m no longer family of them since I only have a selfish behavior.
My aunts and nieces and cousins work while the men just drink. This is also my family.

I know they will never look at me and treat me the way they treat others. Both of my family’s or 2 extremes and as a Western girl with khmer roots I do rebel against this, I’m trying to explain to one part of the family that we are all human beings and that they have the right to sit and stand wherever they want, and the other part that I didn’t move to Cambodia to be there free cash flow and that if you want money you just make your husband to move his ass.

I think there are a lot of misunderstanding and I can figure them out really quickly since I can speak and communicate with them. Even though it’s not easy every day but I try to explain to expats and Cambodians the differences in both cultures, witch sometimes I don’t understand myself but hey step by step

Sheers from the little black girl

Thanks for posting this so I can understand more about Cambodian culture and the way people behave here.

Well that shows how rude some people are just because you dont have money or cant give anything, they cut you off from being a family? Well if I were you, I would say, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR NOT BEING MY FAMILY , IN THAT way I wont worry and spend money to buy gifts.

I hate people who take you as relative just because of money or just because you have something to give.

WE CAME TO THIS WORLD WITH NO CLOTHES AND NO MONEY.. so we die the same,

Just my point of view.

Today I realized that i've been following this topic because my girlfriend has been treating me like shit and I'm trying to figure out why.... 

   This thread becoming funny , it was from asking Khmer rudeness just to understand then went to I give the glasses to some neighbors, to someone came back and give out somethings and considering you not a family , and now ... SOMEONE JUST REALIZE HIS GF TREATING Him like a shit? hahahaha... Hope you are not too late to back off.

Just kidding I guess your gf loves you so much. Maybe you forgot to be romantic.

Could be a lot of things not just being Cambodian :p women are complex in general.

Chococambo, you sound like a "keeper" to me. Wise beyond your years.
Now Chroeb leaves me alone for a week or so, then a phone call for the pizza delivery company, then the call to see if I will pay for it. I guess she was testing the waters once again. She found out that the waters are still a frozen lake!

I'm sure the details of my personal drama are unimportant, so I won't bother describing them.  What I meant is that this topic is helping me understand the culture where my girlfriend has grown up, and some of the influences that may have caused her to act the way she is.

BTW...I learned in a recent anthropology class where evolutionary biology was discussed that I was born with a female brain....so don't assume I know nothing about being attentive and romantic just because I'm male. Also, my girlfriend was born a male too, and is the one who has no idea what being romantic is like.

But enough about me. Let's get back to the topic.

Topic is Cambodian rudeness. Should change it in multicultural rudeness!
Wmnorell relationships are never easy no matter sex or gender.... But we will discuss this in private mail to avoid getting of topic.
Sheers

I think we cannot judge a whole country by just seeing a group of people. I think Cambodian are not so polite plas Japanese people but they are innocent. I think Cambodia is like other Asain countries, but I think we are more honest because they don't know how to play trick like other more advanced countries.

Hi All,

Interesting topic but like many of you mentioned it - lets avoid getting off topic and maybe start new topics for better interactions on the Cambodia Forum please 

Much thanks to all of you !

Maximilien

Well, it turns out that everything is my fault, afterall. I had foolishly sent money to two women in the Philippines, (one a real cute scammer) I l met on an Asian dating site before I left the US. Whenever my girlfriend says she needs money for something (always legit), I go ballistic because I'm so angry at myself for being a lonely old idiot.  Not her fault, at all.

i apologized today, so she would still come live with me starting August 1. Since she was hesitating, thinking I would get mad and throw her out, I asked her to come with me tomorrow to pay the rent. I plan to give her half before we see the owner, and figure that as soon as she hands the woman the money, she has a legal right to live in the house and can't be thrown out by her crazy barang boyfriend or hassled by other tenants. She liked that plan, so we are "good to go."

I guess that means if I really screw up she will ask me to leave and I will lose my cute little house. So I plan to control my temper tantrums in the future. 

Hi Maximilien,

What might be the reason you want to kill the story? It seems people on the forum like it. Give it some time and most likely it will run out of attraction when the time comes. I understand you are in Mauritius, perhaps focus on Mauritius rather on Cambodian issues.

Take care, regards
Mike

There seems to be a custom among Cambodians that if someone gives a gift, the person who receives it now has an obligation, or burden,to reciprocate with a gift of even more value. But somehow, getting a gift from a barang doesn't create the same burden. I wonder why that is......

For example, my girlfriend asked me for $25 dollars to send to a man on his birthday who had given her $20 on her birthday. When I gave her the money, she didn't thank me or seem grateful, as if I were outside of the gift-giving custom. Sort of rude, wasn't it?

Trying to stay on topic.