D*** Hospital Riyadh

Thank you for your feedback and sharing your experience...  I think also should  mention hospital name. Most of private hospitals have many problems.

Unfortunately the website admin would not allow me to post the name of the hospital.

Just a couple of comments here to give some balance to your rather lengthy posting...

My observations are coming from the experience of being the father of 5, attending each birth, all vaginal deliveries, and being primary caregiver to all of my 5 children.

1.  From your posting, it appears that you are probably employed in the healthcare field in some capacity. You certainly have seemed to have gained some considerable knowledge that a layperson might not otherwise have. It reminds me of the old saying that "Doctors make the worst patients." That also holds true for anyone who works as a health professional of any kind. Unless you are an M.D. how can you presume to know better than your doctor, especially for a first-time mother? That seems rather arrogant indeed.  If you are not prepared to accept the medical advice of your doctor then you should seek a second opinion or accept the consequences of your insistance.

2.  An OB/GYN is not going to insist on an episiotomy for no reason at all. The primary reasons for performing an espisiotomy are: a) vaginal tearing is likely; b) baby is in an abnormal position; c) baby is too large (macrosomia); d) baby needs to be delivered quickly to prevent complications; d) possible prevention of fracture to coccyx; e) any combination of the foregoing. Is your husband an MD? What knowledge does he have that is superior to the doctor's? An episiotomy is as much for the mother as it is for the child, just because the baby is not in distress does not mean an episiotomy is not indicated. The fact that you experienced excessive tearing which has not healed means that the doctor was right in insisting, and now you're complaining and carping about not healing? What did you expect? Tears are going to take considerably longer to heal than a clean incision, which is why episiotomies are done in the first place.

3.  Three hours of separation is never going to have any effect whatsoever on a mother's ability to establish breastfeeding, even if the child is bottle fed during that time. Please, you're stretching everyone's credibility with that statement. If there really is a reason for not being able to breastfeed it certainly has nothing whatsoever with the short separation or the feeding.

4.  While an epidural may be covered in natural delivery, generally speaking it is only covered when administered pre-partum, if administered for any other procedure then it will likely be charged. Placental curretage is not part of the normal delivery procedure, hence the additional charge.

5.  Limit of one birthing partner in the delivery environment, that depends on the hospital policy and local law. Some nations don't even premit it at all, you must remember that you are in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, not in the UK. You can't expect to be able to demand everything be done the way it is done back home, you're not back home!

Being from the UK, I'm sure you must be familiar with the very famous quote from William Shakespeare from Hamlet...

"The lady doth protest too much, methinks"

Was there anything about the whole experience that even remotely met with your approval??? Evidently not!

One must wonder about the motives of someone who joins here and their first and only contribution is a lengthy rant which needed intervention from moderators to prevent issues with slander and libel laws.

Cheers,
James

First of all, no I am not a medical professional at all. In fact I am just a mere housewife. However, I did extensive research as I was advised to do so by my midwife while I was in the UK. I was not initially planning on giving birth in Saudi at all and was rather planning on staying in the UK. However after hearing about the hospital I chose to have my baby in Saudi.

I do not propose at all that I know better than the doctor. In fact I commend the second doctor I saw for noticing the retained placenta since my research indicates this is often missed. I mentioned this in my complaint to the hospital too.

Regarding a second opinion, I would have hoped that my doula would have provided this. However, she of course was not allowed in the room and I was in no state to allow my husband to leave especially after what happened with the first doctor. Speaking of which I noticed that even you were not able to respond to that part of my post since she blatantly breached my rights. She did not once ask for consent, let alone informed consent.

Regarding my tear, again my research indicates that studies show tears heal better than episiotomies and this is what I have been told by medical professionals and my tear was no bigger than an episiotomy. It just unfortunately has not healed well and I feel that it shouldn't have happened in the first place had i been allowed to birth in a different position. There was no reason at all for me to be strapped to the bed and I was just unfortunate enough to have been told that this hospital advocates natural birthing.

In regards to breastfeeding again I have read that the early hours are essential in regards to prolactin receptors. And once again the so called lactation consultant should have picked up on the problems we had.

Perhaps your are right about the epidural. I do not know the intricacies of how these hospitals works. That was just my assumption and I stated it as so.

Indeed, I am not in the UK. But that does not give the right to any doctor to perform a procedure on me without consent nor to refuse to stop doing something to me when I ask her to stop especially as there was no emergency whatsoever.

Looks like you've come to have the opinion that what little knowledge you've gleened form the internet and books is superior to formal education and years of practicing medicine. Nobody is going to meet up to your expectations I'm afraid, not since you are a self proclaimed expert on childbirth with all its nuances.

Oh, and you're absolutely wrong about irregular tears healing faster than clean incisions. Where you came by that little gem of knowledge is beyond me, but it pure rubbish. If it were even remotely true then surgeons would open you up with a serrated bread knife instead of a razor sharp scalpel.

However, that's the one bright side of the internet... it has given a venue for those who are of the belief that there is no complaint too small, nothing too insignificant to whine, bellyache, carp and cavil about. Enjoy yourself my dear. Sounds to me like you're not the only one who came away from the whole experience with a bad taste in their mouth... my guess is that could be said for every staff member at the hospital you came in contact with.

Cheers,
James

maz249 wrote:

Unfortunately the website admin would not allow me to post the name of the hospital.

This site can't allow names, not won't.
Allowing you to name the company could leave both you and the site open to legal action.

http://www.arabnews.com/news/823871

If the OP would like the thread removed, use the 'contact us' button at the bottom of the page or contact any member with a light bulb logo like mine to the top right of their avatar.
A green circle means they're online.

James wrote:

Looks like you've come to have the opinion that what little knowledge you've gleened form the internet and books is superior to formal education and years of practicing medicine. Nobody is going to meet up to your expectations I'm afraid, not since you are a self proclaimed expert on childbirth with all its nuances.

Oh, and you're absolutely wrong about irregular tears healing faster than clean incisions. Where you came by that little gem of knowledge is beyond me, but it pure rubbish. If it were even remotely true then surgeons would open you up with a serrated bread knife instead of a razor sharp scalpel.

However, that's the one bright side of the internet... it has given a venue for those who are of the belief that there is no complaint too small, nothing too insignificant to whine, bellyache, carp and cavil about. Enjoy yourself my dear. Sounds to me like you're not the only one who came away from the whole experience with a bad taste in their mouth... my guess is that could be said for every staff member at the hospital you came in contact with.

Cheers,
James

I don't want to be irrelevant here but sometimes the problem of the doctors are not their education or what they gained but their approach to the patients.  James has given details in his response in this post. I wish we could have the same details James put when we see a doctor.

Oh dear!!! Firstly congratulations on the arrival of your bundle of joy. Thank God you are safe and recovering! Please take care of yourself and try best to surround yourself and family with what makes you cheer up sooner!
Thanks for sharing this! I'm worried my for my friend is considering the hospital! Which isn't hard to guess. If I were you I'd make sure to follow up with a health visitor. Check FIS family information services uk and add your uk post code then press enter to see the closest children Centre contact them and explain you are abroad! May be you can get a red book to take with you for vaccinations.
I feel you are well knowledge and an avid reader never fail. TC

My two cents:

Though I agree with what James said above, there is something we can't ignore. The patients today are different. They have access to the internet, apps and many other sources of knowledge and they know about their options in advance. This poses a new challenge for the practitioners. The doctors today have to be ready to answer all those technical questions raised to them. They have to be cordial and include social engineering as part of their practice. Unfortunately, many doctors or medical experts don't realize the importance of this factor. Obviously, a great deal of negligence was done in your case.

An anthropology survey was done a few years back by a renowned University in US. I'll cut down on the details and just put the summary:
You never sue a doctor who did the malpractice. You sue a doctor who did the malpractice AND whom you don't like.
Now, your dis-likeness may be based on anything...let us not go into the details. I hope my point is clear.

The bottom line: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. As James said, we can't challenge medical experts based on the knowledge we acquire through the random sources available to us.

I am not a doctor, so I won't comment on the medical technicalities of your case.
But I do work for a leading insurance company here in KSA and I have access to a huge database of cases reviewed by our expert doctors. For all, who know what D*** translates into, my advice is to be careful about this hospital as they have the greatest number of *bad* cases in Riyadh. Their pediatric emergency though is the best in the city.

For those, who didn't get the D*** hospital yet, I am helpless. This site doesn't allow decoding of names. To stay safe, you may avoid any hospital with the name starting with a 'D'

The right channel to raise a complaint is CCHI. You can register your complaint here. http://www.cchi.gov.sa/en/eServices/Com … tType.aspx

They study the reported cases very carefully. And then (literally) screw the docs, hospitals or insurance companies involved. Don't hesitate to provide as more details about you as possible so that they may contact you if needed.

Three things I do want to write with statistical point of view (rather than medical). Do consider them before setting up any expectations about your complaint.

1- Breaking the water is a very normal practice and is advised by most docs. The reason they tell is to expedite the dilation process.
2- Epidurals don't always work and the side effects are disastrous. Not all docs advise.
3- All babies, born through any kind of surgery involved, do get formula lactation. It's a very normal practice here.

Let me close my post now with a couple of tips about treatment in KSA. It's for all readers.

1- "We don't choose hospitals here. We choose doctors."
...of course, hospital must be good enough to cater for all facilities you may need during your treatment.

2- Do keep 2nd/3rd opinion options always open. I am saying so because you won't believe the number of malpractice cases here. And we obviously can't know the number of such cases not brought to records.

Such a thorough reply. Thank you!

Unlike someone who's trying to belittle her pain and struggles, best response. And those tips are indeed valid. Thank you.

can you send me the name of the hospital? my wife is 5 months pregnant i just want to make sure that everything will be ok.

A very informative response. I visted the website to submit a compaint however I could not find an option for a private paying client to submit a complaint.

Thank you for your response it is really appreciated. I agree. I have come to realise that the way babies are delivered in Saudi is very different to the UK. Having said that my main complaint about my experience in the hospital beginning with a  'D' is the fact that the first doctor refused to removed her hand while performing the internal examination when I asked her to and that she was trying to break my waters without my consent. This should not happen in any country. I recieved a response to my complaint today and they completely ignored this. I visited the website you posted but there does not seem to be a section for private paying clients to complain. Any advice would be much appreciated.

Oooh James I was going to reply alengthy letter to her but when I saw your reply, it was exactly my words, Go bless you..

@poster I will not say much more because I am a doctor but a non-doctor who is obviously not sentimental has taken the words from my mouth.

You do know how I read your complaints shaking my head at your ignorance. For example, you were advised for episiotomy but refused because baby not in distress?? Like seriously?? Now you have a 2nd degree tear and you blame the doctors/hosp.

Many mothers don't establish lactation after birth even if with the baby immediately, sometimes take time. And also, you had a surgical intervention so they administered the baby formula.

Now your problem is informed consent about breaking waters? You are not aware it is part of the birthing process? You are also not aware that the doctor was trying to strip your membranes with forcepts or hand(mechanical)??

Please gather your facts before suing them!

I hope not to find a patient like you, because sometimes we doctors need the patient's trust and confidence.

Thanks.

esosa wrote:

I hope not to find a patient like you, because sometimes we doctors need the patient's trust and confidence.

The problem with doctors exactly what I pointed out above! Why is it hard to understand that trust and confidence have to be won? We don't care how much you have got between your ears or under your belt, treat us well.

TheLegendLeads wrote:

esosa wrote:

I hope not to find a patient like you, because sometimes we doctors need the patient's trust and confidence.

The problem with doctors exactly what I pointed out above! Why is it hard to understand that trust and confidence have to be won? We don't care how much you have got between your ears or under your belt, treat us well.

That's it! hands down..  i was thinking the same..

I disagree to some extend TLL, "treat us well" is a very generic statement thrown at doctors. Give them the chance to treat us well. I would say dont go to doctors with half learned / acquired knowledge from internet and expect them to perform the same.

The problem in KSA/ generally is, after the mandatory medical insurance now, every one just visits the hospital even with the smallest of aliments. The medical care cannot be expected to be given when the doctors are looked upon like service agents / providers. And it happens only with general practice / issues. You dont hear such "care" issues happening in cancer treatment / open heart surgery or other complicated medical issues.  Those cases i assume the doctors knowledge surpasses the patients ??? 

Trust I think should work both ways,  I have seen a lot of people visiting one doctor and then before the medication or the effect of the doctors advise takes place they go for a second opinion or visit another doctor.  Gone are the days when there was one family doctor for almost all ailments - now with each specialism we patients jump from one doc to another and expect them to treat us well ?? I believe trust is earned and treatment comes based on trust.

There is a very old quote from Alexander Pope - "A little bit of knowledge is a dangerours thing."

That's the big problem in the world today. Because of the internet anyone can access information about any topic they wish. Patients who delve into the internet and Google every little thing, or rely upon anecdotal information from others come to think of themselves as having superior knowledge to doctors who have spent years in university, more still in Medical College, gone through internship and residency, and may have gone back to study even further to gain a specialty. That is not to mention at all the experience the doctor has gained in his/her years of practice.

Sorry, but I'll take a doctor with lousy bedside manner if he was top in his class, over somebody as charming as Marcus Welby M.D., but who flunked out of his basic anatomy class. I don't give a rat's gluteus maximus if the doctor treating my illness passed Miss Porter's Charm School with flying colors, if he knows a hyoid process from a sigmoid colon, and he has sufficient experience under his belt.

I have an IQ well above average, I can find anything I want on the internet and analyze it six ways from Sunday. I would not, however, consider that kernel of knowledge gleened from the internet to make me an expert or to be superior to that of the Medical Doctor that I'm entrusting my care to. Why wouldn't I do that? Simply because, as I've mentioned, I have an IQ well above average.

So folks, let's end this PITY PARTY that the original poster has embarked upon. Anybody who treats their doctors with disrespect, attempts to show at every step of the way their superiority (and I suspect this was based purely on racial differences, or HER nationality), thinks they know better than the doctor, and refuses to follow medical advice deserves exactly what they get.

If you start off already thinking you're smarter than your doctor, then just go out to a medical supply house and buy the surgical instruments and treat yourself... after all, you already know it all, don't you?

Cheers,
James
expat.com Experts Team

i must say this kind of tread should be close already..
"little knowledge is a dangerous thing indeed"

@James, the discussion is about Informed Consent and patient's rights. No one is pointing finger at the doctor's competitiveness. Nor anyone said anything overwhelmed with bias or racism. (What has made you think that way?)

The Informed Consent is clearly written and displayed in the charter of ALL medical facilities (under Patient's rights clauses) in this country -- governed by the Ministry of Health. Why do you have to disagree with that?

I believe things are being blown out of proportions in this thread now; it's time to request moderation.

Hi TLL,

The original rant posted by maz249 made it all quite clear. She and her hubby (Brits) know better than the doctors, based on internet research and anecdotal information from others. Or should we say, they have both received medical degrees by osmosis.

I'm actually amazed by the way she describes the incident that the doctors didn't simply usher her out of the hospital and tell her to go elsewhere. Her lack of respect and insistance of both her and her husband that THEY knew what should be done was more than obvious and extremely disrespectful, based solely on their clear belief that things should be done exactly as they perceived they would be done in the UK.

Go back and re-read the comments made by @esosa Reply # 18 and you'll see exactly what a doctor thinks of the situation. Like I said in my first posting on this topic, in the famous words of William Shakespeare, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".

Cheers,
James
expat.com Experts Team

TheLegendLeads wrote:

@James, the discussion is about Informed Consent and patient's rights. No one is pointing finger at the doctor's competitiveness. Nor anyone said anything overwhelmed with bias or racism. (What has made you think that way?)

The Informed Consent is clearly written and displayed in the charter of ALL medical facilities (under Patient's rights clauses) in this country -- governed by the Ministry of Health. Why do you have to disagree with that?

I believe things are being blown out of proportions in this thread now; it's time to request moderation.

they should also experience first how things are going in any country..