VNese customs once your part of VNese family?

As you have seen:
- In Asia, you marry a family not a single person.
- Many things are expressed in a very subtle, indirect way. You are expected to observe and follow.
If you cannot adapt to this, don't marry an Asian - you'd be unhappy for the rest of the relationship!

Beppi,
   I never implied I could not adapt to anything. As long as that anything is known. I had hoped that someone could provide insight to some of these family customs. It seems that there are more concrete rules as they pertain to level of respect paid to other family members for example. Surely someone can tell an unknowing person just what that is. It also seems you are not allowed to tell jokes to certain people in this pecking order, even though they do not understand English they may get offended if you joke. Pointing to a picture of an unknown family member picture on the wall contains some manner of custom ritual and is taboo. It seems you are as clueless about these nuances as I am so are not much help. But I appreciate you giving it the old college try.
Matter of fact I like and enjoy the fact you marry the family.

It is all part of the learning experience. You cannot learn everything regarding VN customs by schooling, you need to take in what the family is telling you. From your Western point of view this may seem harsh but you need to adjust.

What seems harsh to you is not intended as such by them. It shows that they want you to know even if it does seem bad to you. Be the 'grey man', sit quietly, watch listen and learn. Smile,do not take offence.

As beppi  stated, accept it or you will never get on.

In Asia, things are discreetly and politely hinted at.
If your relatives openly tell you not to do this or that, it could be
- because they have adapted to Western, direct ways, OR
- because you consistently ignored their previous attempt by e.g. changing their facial expression or quietly sighing when you did this before and they are at their wits end about how to tell you without confrontation (this is what directly telling you is seen as in Asia!).
I cannot tell which of the two is the case here, but I suspect it's the latter.
In any case, it is certainly more irritating to them than it is to you!

Pointing is a big deal in Asian cultures.  It's always bad - unless someone is extending their arm into oncoming traffic.

Thanks Hailey. I learned that first hand when I went to my future motor-in-laws house and there were photos of many family members on the wall. I asked my fiancee', by pointing as we would do in the U.S. who the people were. She could not even answer me doe was so shocked at what I had done. As it turned out these photos were the alter of the deceased family members.
I hope others can add some other customs that we may not know of. I'm still not clear on the pecking order of the family. I don't think, although I am almost the oldest of them all that I enter into the pecking order, although I am to a certain extent considered at the same level as my fiancee/wife. It is also strange and confusing just what the relative is. For example sister, is not the same as our sister in the West. Aunts and uncles as we know them are not the same here e.g my uncles wife would be my aunt-in-law.
I find it odd at my age to have my younger mother-in-law tell me to do this or that, and because she is the highest in the pecking order I must obey her out of respect.

I recommend "Culture Shock Vietnam" (http://www.amazon.com/Culture-Vietnam-S … 1558682422) - the Culture Shock series is probably the best guide to customs and etiquette, although there are also many others.
I recommend that, as long as you are guest in your in-law's house, you accept their ideas (and "pecking order", as you mistakenly call it), even if you don't like it. With your wife in your own home, you need to find a mutually acceptable middle ground. Good luck on the journey to finding it!

bta87 wrote:

Beppi,
   I never implied I could not adapt to anything. As long as that anything is known. I had hoped that someone could provide insight to some of these family customs. It seems that there are more concrete rules as they pertain to level of respect paid to other family members for example. Surely someone can tell an unknowing person just what that is. It also seems you are not allowed to tell jokes to certain people in this pecking order, even though they do not understand English they may get offended if you joke. Pointing to a picture of an unknown family member picture on the wall contains some manner of custom ritual and is taboo. It seems you are as clueless about these nuances as I am so are not much help. But I appreciate you giving it the old college try.
Matter of fact I like and enjoy the fact you marry the family.

I had similar issue with my vnese ex wife family, I tried to adjust and learn, and something's I did learn, however, the way I handled it, was to clearly infiom my soon to be vnese wife, that  respect her , her culture and her family, but I am NOT vnese and I may not do thing their way, I apologized to her but made it clear I'm only marrying her. In a polite way. We were happily married for 16 years and two beautiful daughters.

bta87, I am sorry to hear that you are having a hard time. That has to be very difficult for your future family to get upset with you for doing things you didn't know were wrong.

I think that your in-laws are being a little too harsh on you. My wife is Vietnamese, and I have made MANY cultural mistakes with my in-laws, but no one ever made a big deal out of it. I have pointed at things (didn't even know it was rude until I read it on the internet because no one told me), constantly call people the wrong pronoun (chi, co, etc.), and have done other things (probably even more than I realize) that have been culturally wrong. My in-laws usually get a chuckle and then let me know the right thing to do. Are your in-laws Buddhist? Mine are Catholic, and I have heard that Buddhists are a little more serious about stuff like that.

I am sure this goes without saying, but it will be to everyone's benefit for yall to work something out. Either they need to learn to cut you some slack or you are going to have to work very hard to make sure that you don't make any future mistakes. Everyone says that you marry the whole family, but for many, the magnitude of the statement may not be realized until after the marriage is complete.

Thanks for all the inputs guys, they are very helpful. I will try and get the book as well. I think some of the problem is my GF does not tell me when she translates (She speaks great English) who is actually speaking.
I assume it is just coming directly from her, her idea, but in fact it is coming from a person that is owed respect.
Her an I disagree on a multitude of things ( such as how to peel a carrot or wash a glass) so I tend to ignore her now. Of course, the speaker has delivered their message and they think it was translated. So now I am ignoring a persons who I should give respect to.
I feel as if my entire life has been taken away from me. I use to be able to iron my cloths just fine and brush my teeth just fine, now I do it wrong. It seems that at least in the circle of VNese I know (family) that their way is the
only way ALWAYS.
I love to cook and be in the kitchen helping cook, but now I no longer enjoy that either. I can't cut meat write, boil water right or anything. So I stay away….now that is not liked either. Feel like I am 4 years old now.

bta87 wrote:

Thanks for all the inputs guys, they are very helpful. I will try and get the book as well. I think some of the problem is my GF does not tell me when she translates (She speaks great English) who is actually speaking.
I assume it is just coming directly from her, her idea, but in fact it is coming from a person that is owed respect.
Her an I disagree on a multitude of things ( such as how to peel a carrot or wash a glass) so I tend to ignore her now. Of course, the speaker has delivered their message and they think it was translated. So now I am ignoring a persons who I should give respect to.
I feel as if my entire life has been taken away from me. I use to be able to iron my cloths just fine and brush my teeth just fine, now I do it wrong. It seems that at least in the circle of VNese I know (family) that their way is the
only way ALWAYS.
I love to cook and be in the kitchen helping cook, but now I no longer enjoy that either. I can't cut meat write, boil water right or anything. So I stay away….now that is not liked either. Feel like I am 4 years old now.

Remember , marriage is a union of two people, dint give up ur culture, ur enjoyments , ur manhood, just because ur in love, both parties need to adjust to each other, she must also adapt to ur idiosyncrasies, both parties in the marriage must be flexible , I myself wouldn't marry into this situation , good luck

Is her family Confucian? This sounds way over harsh from my experience with Vietnamese people besides those very devout Confucian.

bta87,  sounds more like you got an extreme case of a woman trying to control you. Unless you do something completely outrageous most of the Vietnamese tend to understand that you simply don't know their way of doing things.

Another thing to remember a lot of Vietnamese have a hard time translating from viet to English and visa a versa.  Things always get mixed up in translation. Even some viet kieus that have an excellent command of the English language will screw it up at times.

Parmyd,
   I think your right on both accounts. I'm convinced I'm with a very controlling person. One sure indicator of a person who feels they have a right to control someone is when they strike you because they could not. This is the first time  I have ever been struck by a anyone, let alone a female.
  I was once married to an Italian and she explained the difficult process of receiving a message in your non-native tongue, having to process it through your mother tongue database then reply in a matter of seconds was such a daunting task. So I can appreciate the difficulty. Indeed some things certainly have been language translations issues.
  I don't want to paint a bad picture, as she is so kind and cares for me so. She is 35 and never has had to do things any other way than hers. She is just now going through what many of us did when we were much younger…learn that we can speak out and express ourselves and we do not have to "speak when spoken to" lifestyle we had when we were children at home. So I realize there will be a learning curve.
  But this is what makes life in a new country so challenging and exciting. This is my 63 country and I so enjoy it, and truly love VN and it's people.

Milkbunny,
   Yes they are Confucian, and none that I know of are anything else.

also I believe we need more time to listen to different culture and get more understanding and loving and compassion for each other! This is truly an exciting challenge for you!!!

And please don't give up as you are now just at the beginning step of your long-lasting happy marriage. Good luck!!!

bta87
Sorry to hear what you are experiencing.

You are asking us to tell you how to behave. It is a huge subject, with many intricate rules. People spend a lifetime adjusting to it. Judgments are important too. As soon I can tell you a rule, I can immediately tell several situations where it does not apply. I don't know even how to start.

I would have to blame your wife for not doing a good job telling you how to behave. She knows the rules and she is the best one to explain.

Lastly, I really think you should look at your own attitude concerning the willingness to adapt. Often, the clues are all there to see, but one's own attitude and preconception get into one's way.

I have been very lucky. My Vietnamese family understands that I am a foreigner and tend to laugh off my mistakes. The worst thing I did was lay down on the sofa and had my foot on top of the small house alter that was sitting next to it. My mother in law just tapped my foot and motioned for me to turn around a lay the other way with my head facing the alter. I can't imagine what your family would have said about that bta87.

BTW,
The specific rules you are mentioning.
1. No pointing to the deceased: as mentioning before, pointing to someone is normally associated with being angry at that person. You don't do it to a person, let alone your ancestors. Exception: pointing (or rather pinpointing) to a normal picture (not the one on the altar) is fine.
2. Ranking: You have the same rank as your wife. Your mother (in law) is higher than you thus you have to respect. Does not matter how old (or young) she is. Similarly, you have to give respect to the brother-in-law who is older than your wife (even though he is younger than your son).

VTD
Two related rules I have to mention, if you don't already know. It is related to the concept of head being sacred and foot being dirty/offending

1. don't ever touch an Asian grown-up head (tussle their hair). The West is associated with friendliness, but in Asia, it is the biggest faux-pas you can make.

2. Don't put your feet up (when sitting), not even to the table, let alone to an alter. In Thailand, you cannot even point your foot to the direction of another person('s head) when sitting (even when the foot rests on the floor). Vietnamese is not so strict, but the foot has to rest on the floor in all circumstances.

watch and learn.
Good luck.

I have been with my wife almost 15 years and SHE is the one that teaches me what is correct and not correct in the Vietnamese culture. 
Your GF should also be teaching you what is 'right and wrong', however; if you have a controlling GF at this point in the game. 
Maybe you should reconsider your options.

Anatta stated some of the do's and don'ts to get you started, take heed.

If you make a genuine effort to learn and the Mother-in-Law still doesn't like you, then maybe she 'really' doesn't want her daughter to date / marry a foreigner or she just may be a difficult person... period.

You will have to decide for yourself.
Good Luck

bta87 wrote:

Milkbunny,
   Yes they are Confucian, and none that I know of are anything else.

All Asian societies are based off of such, but I mean actual practitioners. That hardcore level of following it I tend to only see with Hoa people like my in-laws. Which makes me think your in-laws are just being harsh for other reasons.

one of the characteristic of Viets that i hate.   some can be very controlling.  they want to controll every aspect of daily life even down to the minute details.  no room for negotiation.  and if they dont get their way they make it miserable for you and everyone.

The foot travelled  in all sorts of dirt even if you have new shoes the head is sacred similar when you call some one , come here, don't use left hand with palm up , if you don't use toilet paper, this is how to wash, use right hand with palm down, there is so much to learn

Anatta,
   And all who provided specific custom rules. This is what I was hoping to learn. Most folks I've talked to their GF wives guide them through all this so they can learn. My GF seems to have problems doing this. For example when we when to seek her mums permission I asked her long before to walk me through this. Yet I walked in cold and said all the wrong things.
  But on another note I find it stifling to have to seek permission to use my cell phone or to even tell a joke. Even though I do all the house work, if I stop for a moment to take a break and use my computer, I'm jumped on. At the momentI'm staying in a hotel just so that I don't have controlling eyes watching my every move. I have never felt like I have lost so much control over my own life. I am just curious if I should expect this from all VNese ladies.
  I really appreciate all the comments from all of you. This issue of feet up is also very common in the middle East as I'm sure VTD can attest to as well.

OBB,
So this controlling everything is part of the package if you marry a VNese lady. Oh my word! That sounds just like my situation. If this is the case I just could not live in such a controlled environment. Heck I was not controlled that much by my parents when I was young. Now I need that at 63, no way!

bta87 wrote:

Anatta,
   And all who provided specific custom rules. This is what I was hoping to learn. Most folks I've talked to their GF wives guide them through all this so they can learn. My GF seems to have problems doing this. For example when we when to seek her mums permission I asked her long before to walk me through this. Yet I walked in cold and said all the wrong things.
  But on another note I find it stifling to have to seek permission to use my cell phone or to even tell a joke. Even though I do all the house work, if I stop for a moment to take a break and use my computer, I'm jumped on. At the momentI'm staying in a hotel just so that I don't have controlling eyes watching my every move. I have never felt like I have lost so much control over my own life. I am just curious if I should expect this from all VNese ladies.
  I really appreciate all the comments from all of you. This issue of feet up is also very common in the middle East as I'm sure VTD can attest to as well.

Guy you got red flags flying all over the place. Can't you see them? 40 years of marriage and I've never heard of half the stuff you say she's doing.  I'd be looking in the rear view mirror on that arrangement. Life to short and there are a whole bunch better pickin's out there.

Budman,
   Agree. That is part and parcel of why I'm now living in a hotel. In Psychology I learned that that last ditch effort of a commuted controller is to strike there disobedient target, or worse. When I discuss the controlling aspect with her she always relies I do it because I love you, or I only want to help you. It seems that all controllers are there to help us and be our parents.
   I wonder if she does not educate me on VNese customs in order to have even more control over me ( see you can not get by w/o me)

bta87
I would differentiate the customs in 3 categories.

1. General rules: Some of the basic ones I have mentioned briefly. It is hard to me to explain since it is like explaining how to ride a bike: one just does it automatically. It is easier if you mention it first then I can help explain the why and the what.
There are some hard and fast rules like talking off your shoes when entering the home.

2. Specific rules for the regions: Each regions have, in addition, some additional rules. In general, the North, because of its more rigid social mores (not to mention additional 30 years of communist Big Brother rules) has more rules.

3. Quirks, idiosyncratic behavior: This varies widely from family to family. A lot of what you mention sounds like belonging to this category (no using the phone or PC,...). Uneducated people sticks to the rules religiously when educated people are more understanding (but they do have more sophisticated rules of their own).

In addition, superstition is big in Vietnam, so a lot of rules are from ignorant people sticking to some ridiculous beliefs.
The New Year is a good occasion for those rules.
Here are some of them
https://www.expat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=220370

Lastly, Fengshui (A Chinese tradition) also has a lot of followers here as well.

Anatta,
   As always from you a lot of great info. Mine you some of the examples I gave I do not think were associated with TET in anyway e.g. the use of my cell phone. This was well before TET and only my GF complained. Just as I am suppose to rinse drinking glasses twice. She insist this is a must. I wash the dishes with boiling water as well as rinse them with hot water. While she uses only cold water. I thought this might stem from the fact they may not have been able to afford to heat water either by gas stove or electricity, so they simply used cold water. Then I could see the need. Indeed, I would perhaps rinse them more than twice. But why only for the glasses. Another example is when I'm asked to mash fish for fish balls, I must mash them in a counterclockwise direction, clockwise is forbidden. I agree, it seems some of these things are due to  a lack of education. I mud be very careful when joking and never do it during serious operations such as locking the front door of the house, as joking may cause distraction and result in serious errors.
I really appreciate all the info on TET. Now I can recall many of the things you mentioned as occurring during the TET celebration. I was mazed at the info someone gave me on all the different uses of a particular flower,or when they are to bloom to bring good luck. I really enjoy learning  these nuances to life here. Again thanks.

bta87 wrote:

Just as I am suppose to rinse drinking glasses twice. She insist this is a must. I wash the dishes with boiling water as well as rinse them with hot water. While she uses only cold water. I thought this might stem from the fact they may not have been able to afford to heat water either by gas stove or electricity, so they simply used cold water. Then I could see the need. Indeed, I would perhaps rinse them more than twice. But why only for the glasses. Another example is when I'm asked to mash fish for fish balls, I must mash them in a counterclockwise direction, clockwise is forbidden.

Remind me the story I read a long time ago from some American book. The story goes sth like this: a man was also surprised to see his new bride always insists cutting the sausage by both ends before cooking. The wife can never answer why. One day, the man asks his mother-in-law. She cannot answer it either insisting that it is the way to do it since her mother always does it that way. He goes to the grandmother. The old woman laughs and explains: during the Great Famine, they were poor thus had only one small skillet. In order to be able to cook, she had to cut the sausages on both ends to make them fit. Her daughter must have learned the habit that way.

Concerning your examples you mentioned, they are idiosyncratic rules, as far as I am concerned.

Anatta,
   Thanks again. I kind of thought so. Funny story by the way. Funny though many habits get started that way and no one knows just why as the originator is long gone.

@bta87

If I were you, I would run for the hills. Her customs should not be an excuse for her or her family to be control freaks over you. If you think things are bad now just you wait until you are married. I've seen this many times before and believe me it never has a happy ending. No matter how hard you try....you will never satisfy a control freak. 

Mia,
   You are so right. Her and I had a long talk a couple of days ago, and she agreed she would do all it takes to make it work and give up her controlling ways. So today she set forth her new plan; anything I wanted or need from her I would submit my request to her in advance, she would then review it if it made sense to HER, and then she would get back to me on when or if she could grant my request. Meanwhile when she tell me not to answer an emergency call I suppose to heed her demands. When she tells me to iron her cloths I don't get to have her submit it for review, I am suppose to do it because I love her. This girl is a nut case. It can only get worse once we get married. For that reason I'm out, as Mark Cuban would say.

Wow, what you are describing sounds like she is your master and you are her slave. I've never treated my husband like that. I adore my husband. But then I am only half VNmese and half German.    Tell you what...when I visit VN, I will let you iron my clothes and I would care one bit how you do it! Just be grateful that you offered! 

Run... run away very fast.. sounds like you are a nice guy and they want a 'walking wallet'..