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Vietnamese Name order

Last activity 29 August 2022 by Aidan in HCMC

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lightinumbrella4
Hello everyone,

I'd like to know how to address a Vietnamese colleague via email when they are using three names?

For example: 1Vu name2 name3 .

Is the order similar to Chinese when the last name is presented first? For example is VU the family name?

Many thanks in advance 1f600.svg
Casey
Aidan in HCMC
@lightinumbrella4

1.Family name first,
2. then gender identifier (Thi=female, Van=Male), though this is not obligatory,
3. then a self selected name, though again not always present nor obligatory,
4. then given name.

So, as an example Huong Thi Pham Phuong, where
#1 is Huong, family name
#2 is Thi (female), gender identifier similar to Mr., Ms., Mrs.
#3 is Pham, a self selected name (similar to our having a non-obligatory middle name)
#4 is Phuong, given name at birth

Note* If you asked this (fictitious) person what her "last name" is, she could rightly say Phuong.
Better to ask what their family name is, which would be Huong
lightinumbrella4
Aidan - that's so helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain the name sequence.  I'll address them correctly from now on.

Thanks again
Casey 1f64f.svg1f604.svg
Guest2023
Also remember that many VN names are used by both male and female. If you don't have the gender identifier it can get tricky.
Aidan in HCMC
Aidan - that's so helpful. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain the name sequence.  I'll address them correctly from now on.

Thanks again
Casey 1f64f.svg1f604.svg
- @lightinumbrella4

As I thought more about your original question, it occurred to me that it may be a good idea to ask what their family name is, even though you now know the order in which their names are assigned.

I'm assuming that in your email correspondence with your VN colleague that you are typing in English. Being aware of how we place our names when texting-speaking-typing, many VN people will reverse their name order so as to, in a manner, "translate" their name to fit our language/custom. Hence, Huong Phuong might tell you her name is Phuong Huong.

Asking ,"Which of your names is your family name?" will not cause offense.
paulmsn
Curiously, when I bought a ticket on Vietnam airlines, they asked for middle, first, then last name, which is the order they used on the ticket itself.  This caused trouble with crediting miles to Delta. 

I believe Vietjet asked for last, middle, first, but the tickets said Last Name, First Middle
Aidan in HCMC
Curiously, when I bought a ticket on Vietnam airlines, they asked for middle, first, then last name, which is the order they used on the ticket itself.  This caused trouble with crediting miles to Delta. 

I believe Vietjet asked for last, middle, first, but the tickets said Last Name, First Middle
- @paulmsn

It's frustrating, and not uncommon.
devarj57
Same issue when wife got her green card. Had middle name as first name. US immigration can't even distinguish the difference. Of course, about six month wait to get it corrected. Not a big deal but surely they should know better after decades of issuing visas. Immigration officer told us it happens all the time - government in the sunshine. Argh! ;-)
CHN90
I might add this to help out the newcomers. For example: Chuong (First name) Nguyen (Last), MD (my late father).
They would address him as: Ông (Mr.) Chuong or by the title Bác Sỹ (Dr.) Chuong.
I’ve found it interesting that until the day he died (in California) all of his acquaintances were still addressing him as Bác Sỹ Chuong (Vietnamese ones) and Dr. Chuong (American ones) and not Nguyen.
QPR_FC
@paulmsn I'm forever getting the name order wrong whenever buying a flight ticket for my gf.
The airline websites ask for a particular order and then print the ticket in a totally different order.
They even get my first and middle names mixed on the ticket, however it rarely causes an issue at the airport but frequent flyer points may suffer as in your situation.
ebxebx2
The Vietnamese consider your family name to be your first name. Your first name is your last name.

You did come to Vietnam for adventure, right?
UNCLEBARRY
The way my wife explained it to me is is very similar to how Aiden explained it. In old tradition (does not necessarily apply today).

1. Family name
2. Gender identifier
3. Generation identifier
4. Given name
My wife has 10 siblings and they most of them share the same middle names. If you were to look at a list of their names most of her brothers share the same name except for the given name. Same with her sisters.
Aidan in HCMC
Another difference of note between western names and VN names which deserves mention, is that upon marriage the bride retains her family name, not changing it to her husbands family name.

Any children from their union will carry the father's family name (never a hyphenated family name).
gobot

Pro rule -


If the name starts with Nguyen, then his/her first name is the last one.
If Nguyen is on the right side, then they already switched it western 1f920.svg style.

That covers most cases.

I'd like to know how to address a Vietnamese colleague via email when they are using three names?

Name? Vietnamese don't use first names, just pronouns.
eg. em if around your age or younger, else anh/chi ("gee") but that is a whole other expat com mega-thread.
wits3
Curiously, when I bought a ticket on Vietnam airlines, they asked for middle, first, then last name, which is the order they used on the ticket itself.  This caused trouble with crediting miles to Delta. 

I believe Vietjet asked for last, middle, first, but the tickets said Last Name, First Middle
- @paulmsn

it has been a while since, but i remember having exactly this problem: you take pains to exactly fill out form as requested, and then their system screws it up by unilaterally changing order and creating problems check-in.

does this describe your experience?
Aidan in HCMC

Pro rule -


If the name starts with Nguyen, then his/her first name is the last one.
If Nguyen is on the right side, then they already switched it western 1f920.svg style.

That covers most cases.

I'd like to know how to address a Vietnamese colleague via email when they are using three names?

Name? Vietnamese don't use first names, just pronouns.
eg. em if around your age or younger, else anh/chi ("gee") but that is a whole other expat com mega-thread.
- @gobot

Good tip, Gobot. Thank you for that.

One exception, though. I have seen people's name being Nguyn Nguyên.
When written in English, without tones, it is spelled Nguyen Nguyen, no?
LOL, I guess in that case it wouldn't matter which name comes first.

Guest2023

Pro rule -


If the name starts with Nguyen, then his/her first name is the last one.
If Nguyen is on the right side, then they already switched it western 1f920.svg style.

That covers most cases.

I'd like to know how to address a Vietnamese colleague via email when they are using three names?

Name? Vietnamese don't use first names, just pronouns.
eg. em if around your age or younger, else anh/chi ("gee") but that is a whole other expat com mega-thread.
- @gobot


Lots of pronouns in Vietnamese, north,south and central have variations, plus superior-inferior in the family not used outside the family.
wits3
@lightinumbrella4

1.Family name first,
2. then gender identifier (Thi=female, Van=Male), though this is not obligatory,
3. then a self selected name, though again not always present nor obligatory,
4. then given name.

So, as an example Huong Thi Pham Phuong, where
#1 is Huong, family name
#2 is Thi (female), gender identifier similar to Mr., Ms., Mrs.
#3 is Pham, a self selected name (similar to our having a non-obligatory middle name)
#4 is Phuong, given name at birth

Note* If you asked this (fictitious) person what her "last name" is, she could rightly say Phuong.
Better to ask what their family name is, which would be Huong
- @Aidan in HCMC

i have to advise that this is somewhat incorrect.

(and btw the confusion created by out-of-date and misleading terms Last Name and First Name is one of my pet hates. It amazes me that almost all Internet sites, even those whom you would expect to be much more culturally sensitive and practical, like Amnesty International, STILL persist in using those terms when it should be glaringly obvious that literally over half (64% actually) of the world's population put their FAMILY Name FIRST.  and that suggests my easy and practical solution for the whole problem - always use the terms Family Name and Given Name. It works everywhere in every situation.)

Now.
#1 is correct
#2 is correct
#3 is NOT correct. 1. It is NOT self-selected. 2. it is, as you say, similar to Western 'Middle Name', but it is NOT equivalent. Formally it is part of Given Name, but is rarely used, except officially; but what really annoyed my wife is that, apparently, 'Pham' is a FAMILY name: it is never used in this way/position, and 'Huong' is not a Family Name either, but a Give3n Name (so it seems as far as i tell that the example given has already been turned topsy-turvy.
#4 is correct with the proviso above that #3 is formally part of Given Name

Additionally.
- #1 Family Name always derives for Father's Family Name
- but it is an increasing practice to add Mother's Family Name to children's Family Name, eg Le+Huyhn = Le Huyhn Thi .... always 2nd of course :-)
- previously it was always the custom to include the gender honorific (for the obvious reason when many names can be both female or male), Thi or Van respectively; however, it is now becoming more common to omit. I hear the main reason is that people say that it is not 'pretty'.
- finally, in addition, many people have a 'family name', not to be confused with Family Name, which is is the exact equivalent of our Nickname, that is used in exactly  the same way, so we could say a 'familiar' name as being the correct term, and its etymology to 'family' more obvious.

Note: for ease of typing, i have omitted all diacritics (which don't appear to work here anyway w/o 'cutting and pasting')
wits3

Pro rule -


If the name starts with Nguyen, then his/her first name is the last one.
If Nguyen is on the right side, then they already switched it western 1f920.svg style.

That covers most cases.

I'd like to know how to address a Vietnamese colleague via email when they are using three names?

Name? Vietnamese don't use first names, just pronouns.
eg. em if around your age or younger, else anh/chi ("gee") but that is a whole other expat com mega-thread.
- @gobot

Good tip, Gobot. Thank you for that.

One exception, though. I have seen people's name being Nguyn Nguyên.
When written in English, without tones, it is spelled Nguyen Nguyen, no?
LOL, I guess in that case it wouldn't matter which name comes first.

- @Aidan in HCMC


well, that would be a silly thing to say - "without tones"!
seeing using 'tones' (diacritics), or lack of them, are the whole basis of the Viet vocabulary.

(and even then, and with extra letters, they (tieng Viet) are still missing a whole lot of common English words eg 'home')
OceanBeach92107

Pro rule -


If the name starts with Nguyen, then his/her first name is the last one.
If Nguyen is on the right side, then they already switched it western 1f920.svg style.

That covers most cases.

I'd like to know how to address a Vietnamese colleague via email when they are using three names?

Name? Vietnamese don't use first names, just pronouns.
eg. em if around your age or younger, else anh/chi ("gee") but that is a whole other expat com mega-thread.
- @gobot

Good tip, Gobot. Thank you for that.

One exception, though. I have seen people's name being Nguyn Nguyên.
When written in English, without tones, it is spelled Nguyen Nguyen, no?
LOL, I guess in that case it wouldn't matter which name comes first.

- @Aidan in HCMC
Making it a classic "Nguyen Nguyen" situation...
wits3
@lightinumbrella4

1.Family name first,
2. then gender identifier (Thi=female, Van=Male), though this is not obligatory,
3. then a self selected name, though again not always present nor obligatory,
4. then given name.

So, as an example Huong Thi Pham Phuong, where
#1 is Huong, family name
#2 is Thi (female), gender identifier similar to Mr., Ms., Mrs.
#3 is Pham, a self selected name (similar to our having a non-obligatory middle name)
#4 is Phuong, given name at birth

Note* If you asked this (fictitious) person what her "last name" is, she could rightly say Phuong.
Better to ask what their family name is, which would be Huong
- @Aidan in HCMC

i have to advise that this is somewhat incorrect.

(and btw the confusion created by out-of-date and misleading terms Last Name and First Name is one of my pet hates. It amazes me that almost all Internet sites, even those whom you would expect to be much more culturally sensitive and practical, like Amnesty International, STILL persist in using those terms when it should be glaringly obvious that literally over half (64% actually) of the world's population put their FAMILY Name FIRST.  and that suggests my easy and practical solution for the whole problem - always use the terms Family Name and Given Name. It works everywhere in every situation.)

Now.
#1 is correct
#2 is correct
#3 is NOT correct. 1. It is NOT self-selected. 2. it is, as you say, similar to Western 'Middle Name', but it is NOT equivalent. Formally it is part of Given Name, but is rarely used, except officially; but what really annoyed my wife is that, apparently, 'Pham' is a FAMILY name: it is never used in this way/position, and 'Huong' is not a Family Name either, but a Give3n Name (so it seems as far as i tell that the example given has already been turned topsy-turvy.
#4 is correct with the proviso above that #3 is formally part of Given Name

Additionally.
- #1 Family Name always derives for Father's Family Name
- but it is an increasing practice to add Mother's Family Name to children's Family Name, eg Le+Huyhn = Le Huyhn Thi .... always 2nd of course :-)
- previously it was always the custom to include the gender honorific (for the obvious reason when many names can be both female or male), Thi or Van respectively; however, it is now becoming more common to omit. I hear the main reason is that people say that it is not 'pretty'.
- finally, in addition, many people have a 'family name', not to be confused with Family Name, which is is the exact equivalent of our Nickname, that is used in exactly  the same way, so we could say a 'familiar' name as being the correct term, and its etymology to 'family' more obvious.

Note: for ease of typing, i have omitted all diacritics (which don't appear to work here anyway w/o 'cutting and pasting')
- @wits3

Edit: all my Vietnamese family got very annoyed  with this name example because it basically 'screwed up' already. #1 is not a Family Name and #3 is not a Given Name.
wits3
@lightinumbrella4

1.Family name first,
2. then gender identifier (Thi=female, Van=Male), though this is not obligatory,
3. then a self selected name, though again not always present nor obligatory,
4. then given name.

So, as an example Huong Thi Pham Phuong, where
Edit: all my Vietnamese family got very annoyed  with this name example because it basically 'screwed up' already. #1 is not a Family Name and #3 is not a Given Name.
- @wits3

ie 'Huong' not used as a Family Name, and 'Pham' is not used as a Given Name: my family were focussing on the actual names! not just as examples of the order. so it would seem that teh example was already 'anglicised'? Note that as previously mentioned #3 Pham is NOT a "self-selected" name part, but part of the two-part Given name, which is only used formally. Family 'nicknames', if that is what is meant, are quite common, but are not written anywhere.

i might even do a little graphic summarising all this.
AndyHCMC
Nah lets not do graphics, matrix & talking points.
Guest2023

Looks like a long lost troll has returned.


Those of us who know what Im talking about will understand.

goodolboy

Looks like a long lost troll has returned.
Those of us who know what Im talking about will understand.
-@colinoscapee

just shows how low the forum has got these days that a subject like this has been dragged out to this extent.

Aidan in HCMC

Looks like a long lost troll has returned.
Those of us who know what Im talking about will understand.
-@colinoscapee

just shows how low the forum has got these days that a subject like this has been dragged out to this extent.
-@goodolboy


Agreed. Started to resemble a blog, right about here.


And "Pham" is in fact used as either a given, or as a "middle" name.


Closed

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